How it all makes sense

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How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Sat May 18, 2019 8:08 am

.

I’d like to discuss with you something that’s been on my mind lately.
Things make sense when everything fits together.
Therefore, how make things fit?
They fit when they’re compatible.

People are compatible when they agree, share common values, or have reached a consensus on several issues. Thus if we want things to make sense, we will work to figure out on what we can agree; and we will build on that to a wider area of agreement. We will strive to find a consensus.

In practice this means that we will NOT immediately seek what holes we can pick in what someone has said or written. [We will become ‘virtue-finders’ instead of fault-finders.]

....Your views on this topic?
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
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Re: How it all makes sense

Postby Karpel Tunnel » Sat May 18, 2019 9:31 am

thinkdr wrote:In practice this means that we will NOT immediately seek what holes we can pick in what someone has said or written. [We will become ‘virtue-finders’ instead of fault-finders.]

....Your views on this topic?

There are initiatives like this. I recently read about one where women actively pro and against abortion had meals together and managed to form friendships, though there was little shifting of the opinions on abortion, If I remember correctly, some of the hatred got sucked out of these particular women's relations.

Another thing I think of is that in debates one often finds cherry picking.

Like if one is critical of psychiatric overprescription one often immediately gets asked why one would deprive a schizphrenic of their meds. IOW a situation is treated as binary when it is not. Perhaps, as you say, both sides could agree one some areas of over medication, before they tackle tougher issues. This could be part of a virtue finding discussion or it could simply be a good rule of thumb within fault finding discussions: try not to make everything binary, unless it truly is.

It is unpleasant to immediately have holes pointed out (or posited). On the other hand, this is a philosophy forum, so assertions of ideas are pretty much asking to have their faults found.

So to find virtue in this OP, I would say that it is good if one can, in addition to pointing out faults, to also mention areas of agreement. If one only focuses on faults, then the discussion can get toxic fast.

But then one could also argue that you then can role model this and
find virtue
in fault finding posts.

Show us how it is done.

The moment you paint fault finding posts as a problem, you are joining in the fault finding. And if one is writing a book, one knows the people to go to get stroked. The internet presents people who will show how the reader you do not know disagrees, finds the argument weak

and this can strengthen the book or argument.

And then I am not sure there should be a rule. If one thinks the argument itself is toxic, it becomes an empty ritual if one says this or that small piece is good, but the rest is horrible and dangerous.

We have to expect strong critical reactions, if things are stated as the way things are, or what is good. If we open a thread with something like...

I have been mulling over X, and i wonder if....

or

Let's explore X. I have some thoughts and am tending towards thinking....

That is, tentitive, openly exploratory, requests for collaboration type openings.

Now you, in particular may think this is how you approach the forums. YOu certainly ask for feedback, are polite, etc. And I would guess you see me as fault finding, rather than virtue finding, fair enough.

The context seems to be someone marketing their book/system. And my experience has been that there is more a presentation of a flexibility on your part, rather than a real flexibility. It has come off as if you have found answers and if we are more fundamentally skeptical, then we don't get it. Fine. Who isn't like that at some level, all of us convinced of at least some things we believe in and stubborn about that.

But once one is presenting a system to others as the best or true, it is pretty much a given that this will end up being a fault finding situation. Unless one can easily separate out particulars to like. But once a system is presented, those faults are tied to the virtues. One cannot pick and choose. Does the system actually present a way forward? If not, and I am afraid I don't think yours does - whether I am correct or not - then my reactions need to be about the faults. I might agree about a specific instance, like the Mall example, months ago. IOW, it was possible, though in that specific case, I didn't agree. Now, you accepted the criticism, at first, but I think there were systematic problems with the approach. Large blind spots, partly because of how things can look neat in the abstract, but in practice are not so neat. Partly because I think the system you present is not getting at core issues. Certainly if everyone just agreed to follow the ideas in it, tensions in the world would reduce. But that would be true if pretty much any ethical system became the rule for everyone.

What if, to make an actual positive contribution to society you need to rethink at a fundamental level?
What if that is the case?

If that is the case, then us finding virtues is enabling and putting off your dealing with a fundamental set of changes in your idea, both in presentation and content.

I think that is the case. I don’t think you are close to a solution. And I don’t think you are close to knowing how to apply whatever virtues are currently present in your ideas.

I might be wrong. But if I am correct, then the best possible thing is that you deal with fault finding, take it seriously and go back to the drawing board. Or even better, go to a homeless shelter or protest site or some other charged conflict situation, and try to apply your ideas, and see how it goes. Because to me it sounds like you have lovely ideals on paper and are upset that other people do not accept these ideals.

Perhaps you are right. But I think, then, if you are right, then go directly to application. Show the world how these ideas work in concrete situations, problem solving conflicts and conflicts based on value differences. Then the book will catch on.

If you view our criticism as simply not getting how great the ideas you have are, then the criticism will remain as the main response.
Last edited by Karpel Tunnel on Sun May 19, 2019 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How it all makes sense

Postby promethean75 » Sat May 18, 2019 12:38 pm

hey that's the reality of it, thinkdr. i've gotten to the point where i dislike someone so much i go looking for ways to make them wrong. it's like i'm a walking ad hominem machine, dude. and it may even be by the merits of the argument alone, that it's wrong, but i don't even care about that. i'm totally motivated by my contempt first... and then i just happen to find a bad argument. if i don't find one, i'll make it a bad argument. it's crazy dude. i need therapy.
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Re: How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Fri May 24, 2019 12:23 am

promethean75 wrote:hey that's the reality of it, thinkdr. i've gotten to the point where i dislike someone so much i go looking for ways to make them wrong. it's like i'm a walking ad hominem machine, dude. and it may even be by the merits of the argument alone, that it's wrong, but i don't even care about that. i'm totally motivated by my contempt first... and then i just happen to find a bad argument. if i don't find one, i'll make it a bad argument. it's crazy dude. i need therapy.


Here is a book I can whole-heatedly recommend -- not just for you, but for everyone
:
Susan Packard - FULLY HUMAN (NY: Penguin Books, 2019)

https://www.amazon.com/Fully-Human-Emot ... merReviews


It presents Ethics as I wish I had presented it.

.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
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Re: How it all makes sense

Postby Dan~ » Fri May 24, 2019 1:13 am

thinkdr wrote:I’d like to discuss with you something that’s been on my mind lately.
Things make sense when everything fits together.
Therefore, how make things fit?
They fit when they’re compatible.

People are compatible when they agree, share common values, or have reached a consensus on several issues. Thus if we want things to make sense, we will work to figure out on what we can agree; and we will build on that to a wider area of agreement. We will strive to find a consensus.

In practice this means that we will NOT immediately seek what holes we can pick in what someone has said or written. [We will become ‘virtue-finders’ instead of fault-finders.]

....Your views on this topic?


Democrats think that concent is a very important thing.
Culturally this was a reaction to despotism.
Now despotism is gone, and the democrats remain.
They do what they do best, oppose things.
I like http://www.accuradio.com , internet radio.
https://dannerz.itch.io/ -- a new and minimal webside now hosting two of my free game projects.
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Re: How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Fri May 24, 2019 2:06 am

Dan~ wrote:
thinkdr wrote:I’d like to discuss with you something that’s been on my mind lately.
Things make sense when everything fits together.
Therefore, how make things fit?
They fit when they’re compatible.

People are compatible when they agree, share common values, or have reached a consensus on several issues. Thus if we want things to make sense, we will work to figure out on what we can agree; and we will build on that....

....Your views on this topic?


Now despotism is gone...


It is very reassuring to hear that! Benedict Donald invites the President of Hungary, tells him what a good friend and role-model he is; does the same for the head of the human-god cult leader in North Korea, looks forward to a warm chat with the strongman dictating to the Russians, and admires the smooth operation of the new head-man in Brazil, and of Erewhon in Turkey.

It is easy to get the impression that we are in the U.S.A. directly heading toward an authoritarian society. {I would love to be wrong about that, but I have to go with the evidence, and where it is pointing.}

The current occupant of public housing, the one who is bankrupt of ideas and policy plans and who has been literally bankrupt so many times in his life, who now resides in a White house, will readily declare martial law if he is a wartime president; and he will become a wartime president if he can manage to foment a war close to the time of the next election. He will declare we are at war - without the consent and advice of Congress, since he has violated so many other norms of government and civics, so as to set new, morally-questionable, precedents. This tells us who he is.

Let us be careful that you and I do not - as DJT has and does - live by the belief that any means to an end, one that benefits us personally, is okay, and is justified.
If we are in pursuit of a moral end-in-view then the use of immoral means will spoil the whole process. Ethics teaches us to be fussy about the means we employ. To hold that "anything goes," as our potential dictator does, is to be ignorant incompetent, malicious, or worse.

.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
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Re: How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Fri May 24, 2019 2:29 am

I might add to what I said earlier, in the o.p.

It's all in your head, hands and heart.

That is to say, it is in your thinking, your practicality in getting noble things done, and in your empathy, compassion, understanding, and kindness ...your willingness to be of service, your assuming of responsibility; also, your generosity, cosmic optimism, wanting to lift up the little guy, empower him and her from the bottom up, rather than depending upon the philanthropy from the top down.

Help others to rise !!!

We often hold ourselves back, get in our own way. However, if you remember that you may have a full, enjoyable and meaningful life, one that makes a difference, you will realize that the answer is in your head, your hands, and, especially, your heart.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
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Posts: 644
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Sat May 25, 2019 9:15 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote: it sounds like you ... are upset ....

No, I am not upset.

To understand why, re-read that very-brief explanation, "Achieving Emotional Peace" which I live by. [It is offered on pp. 16-17, of LIVING WELL: How ethics helps us flourish, which is the third selection in the References in the signature below.]



... if you are right, then go directly to application. Show the world how these ideas work in concrete situations, problem solving conflicts and conflicts based on value differences. Then the book will catch on.


Thank you, karpal, for your constructive suggestion.

Actually, in Chapters Four and Five of The Structure of Ethics [which is the first selection below] I have given quite a few applications of the Unified Theory of Ethics, which is the theory presented in that booklet. In the future I will go to the applications more directly, as per your wise council.

Comments? Questions? Critiques?
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
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Posts: 644
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: How it all makes sense

Postby promethean75 » Sat May 25, 2019 10:32 pm

Thanks for the recommendation. Susan Packard - FULLY HUMAN. I'll put that on the list of books I'll never read.

I got one for ya. Try this out....

https://www.amazon.com/Ego-His-Own-Indi ... 048644581X

But first, an admission from the author:

"Do I write out of love to men? No, I write because I want to procure for my thoughts an existence in the world; and, even if I foresaw that these thoughts would deprive you of your rest and your peace, even if I saw the bloodiest wars and the fall of many generations springing up from this seed of thought — I would nevertheless scatter it. Do with it what you will and can, that is your affair and does not trouble me. You will perhaps have only trouble, combat, and death from it, very few will draw joy from it." - Max Stirner
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Re: How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Sun May 26, 2019 2:28 am

Hi, there

I agree with Max Stirner. In this book he chronicles the battle of the individual against the collective — showing how, throughout history, the latter invariably leads to oppression. Yes, he is right.



What the Unified Theory of Ethics recommends is the building of a sense of community, an inclusiveness; an awareness that we are all in the family: the family of the human species. There are no strangers. We all are fallible beings who commit many errors all the time. Some 2% of us have criminal minds, although Trump, as a role model, may have increased that number in the USA., for he is a skilled con-artist with a Malignant Personality Disorder. Most of us are handicapped in some way. We must emphasize humility and forgiveness. Don't "put others down" unless they are in a high office, in power. Then satire is okay.
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
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Posts: 644
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Mon May 27, 2019 11:22 pm

.
Let us not confuse the concept "collective" with the concept "community." The former is a Systemic or Extrinsic way of looking at a group; the latter is the Intrinsic perspective when viewing a group of people. (Similarly, when one speaks of "society," that is a Systemic evaluation of a group of individuals. (...each of which is unique - if one knows one's Ethics.)

Also let's not confuse "individualism" with "individuality." The former is merely Extrinsic value, while the latter is Intrinsic value. (The Systemic-value correlates are "conformity" and also "uniformity."

For further details see the chart on pp. 64-66 at this link:

http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/A%20UNI ... ETHICS.pdf

Questions? Comments? Additions?
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Re: How it all makes sense

Postby thinkdr » Wed May 29, 2019 2:50 am

What follows may be of interest. The words are spoken by a character named Nick on p. 49 of an essay I wrote nine years ago. Here is a link to the original booklet itself: http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/A%20UNI ... ETHICS.pdf

HOW HUMANS DIFFER FROM OTHER ANIMALS
:According to the findings of the science of Physical Anthropology humans are animals. We are playful bipeds who love our games, our sports, and love solving puzzles;who speak advanced tongues; who write poetry and compose funky pictures; film movies; who reflect on our own reflections, who define ourselves,

We have vivid, even over-powering imaginations.5 We can go insane. We project goals. We have desires, andprinciples, and as far as we know (or don’t know) so do other animals. We do have a talent for putting others into cages and, at times, for doing incredibly-stupid things for no good reason. Humans are distinguished from other animals by our versatility due to brain size.

Thus we can write, we can use complex speech and evolve subtle languages. We are capable of expressing abstract, and at times imaginative, thoughts. Some of these thoughts result in inventions – both musical and technological.

- 49 -Other animals do not have the brains for ethics (and at the moment it seems that many humans don’t either! This, though, can change in a relatively-short period of time, as education and instructional techniques become more effective, and as new generations evolve.)

There is a sector in the architecture of the human brain that controls the use of our hands. Finger manipulation and the opposable thumb is lacking in other creatures. We have also developed more tools - such as, for instance, computer programs and robots. Furthermore we have cultural evolution with elaborate rituals and advanced systems of Mathematics and Logic. Does all this make us superior to those animals who do not have these attributes? Hardly.

Those of you who have a pet as part of your family – whether a cat, dog, horse, bird or hamster - will agree readily that your pet is superior to many humans you have known.

Your comments are welcome !!
:idea: For further reading and insight into the topics of Ethics check out these links, and thereby add to your reading enjoyment

THE STRUCTURE OF ETHICS
[NEW] :!:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


THE BREAKTHROUGH - We Can Get Along After All (2018)
http://myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/BREAKT ... %20all.pdf

LIVING WELL: how ethics helps us flourish
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/LI ... ourish.pdf


BASIC ETHICS: a systematic approach

http://tinyurl.com/mfcgzfz

ETHICAL ADVENTURES http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/ETHICAL%20ADVENTURES.pdf

When you Google the following pdf selection you may wish to start with page 20 in order to skip the technicalities:
Marvin C. Katz - ETHICS: A College Course
thinkdr
Thinker
 
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 7:05 pm


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