Human Depression

[Blurry]

My depression, since it's the result of a genetic chemical imbalance, is a life-time thing, rather than a recurring or a onetime thing. It's kind of like PTSD--which is a form of depression--only I don't dwell on it. The drug I take is a generic--its brand name is Effexor, which I took before the generic was released. Taking the generic hasn't lowered the co-pay, since the pharm still holds the patent on Effexor, but it should come down by 2015, when the patent runs out.

Effexor was the drug my doctor put me on that helped me. When I first started on meds I was prescribed Zoloft. I took it for 30 days and it didn't do a damn thing, I felt no change whatsoever. When my doc put me on Effexor, the results were immediate. I took a pill before I went to bed that first night, and when I woke up in the morning it was like I was a different person. After a couple of months, though, it started to wack me out -- it was like taking speed. When I initially got on meds I was in a state of catatonic depression so I was taking a pretty high dosage, but after a few months that probably should've been lowered. I just stopped taking it altogether, though.

[Arcturus Descending]

AR, I've now gone through Chapter 3 and I'm still trying to find a correlation between what the author describes and my life. Perhaps I've gone through 'suppression,' as JSS suggests.

I grew up as the daughter of an Army officer. While he was somewhat of a martinet, he was less so than most officers of his rank and position. Even so, he often frightened me--not because of who he was, but because what I was could affect what he was. If an officer yells, "Jump!" everyone jumps. Only afterwords do the rank and file question.

I believe I know and accept the stress in my life, for the most part--but stress still led to depression--it still led to the breaking point that's left me with a life-time of taking pills that restore my equilibrium.

Hey, after 3 brain surgeries to correct another brain malfunction--essential tremor--I still need propranolol to control my tremor before we go out to dinner. Otherwise I have to steady my right hand with my left in order to get the salad into my mouth. Such is my life, folks.

I wouldn't trade it--It's mine!--and I love it.

It is UNBELIEVABLE to me the great courage and inner strength that humanity is sometimes capable of...like you, for instance, lizbethrose.
And some others in here.
And then there are those who whimper and fall apart at the drop of a hat (myself included at times)
Thank you for sharing that with me.

To dream the impossible dream,
To fight the unbeatable foe,
To bear with unbearable sorrow
To run where the brave dare not go;
To right the unrightable wrong.


and lisbethrose .......May the raindrops fall lightly on your brow. May the soft winds freshen your spirit. May the sunshine brighten your heart. May the burdens of the day rest lightly upon you, and may you be enfolded in the mantle of love.

[lizbethrose]

Thank you, AR. I'm so much more happy knowing people such as you exist.

[lizbethrose]

My depression, since it's the result of a genetic chemical imbalance, is a life-time thing, rather than a recurring or a onetime thing. It's kind of like PTSD--which is a form of depression--only I don't dwell on it. The drug I take is a generic--its brand name is Effexor, which I took before the generic was released. Taking the generic hasn't lowered the co-pay, since the pharm still holds the patent on Effexor, but it should come down by 2015, when the patent runs out.

Effexor was the drug my doctor put me on that helped me. When I first started on meds I was prescribed Zoloft. I took it for 30 days and it didn't do a damn thing, I felt no change whatsoever. When my doc put me on Effexor, the results were immediate. I took a pill before I went to bed that first night, and when I woke up in the morning it was like I was a different person. After a couple of months, though, it started to wack me out -- it was like taking speed. When I initially got on meds I was in a state of catatonic depression so I was taking a pretty high dosage, but after a few months that probably should've been lowered. I just stopped taking it altogether, though.

Drug reactions are different for different people. I can't remember all the names of the drugs I've taken--Most of them were pretty standard mind-altering drugs--I think one of them was Welbutrin (sp), but I'm not sure. My psychiatrist prescribed Zoloft--I lasted for two days during which I was crawling the walls.

Our GP put me on Effexor, timed release capsules, 150 mg/day. After 5-6 years on the stuff, I'm able to maintain equilibrium (even though I was sure I'd died after my last surgery and that the seeming continuation of my life, with my husband, daughter, and pets was nothing more than my 'heaven.')

Then I had my small Franny and Zooey type breakdown, kept taking those damned drugs for the six days I was hospitalized, and dug myself out of it all.

You do things your way; I do things my way. It doesn't matter how we do it--what matters is that we try. What matters is, if we succeed, we have life.

Good luck and God speed; but--if you ever feel yourself falling into the oblivion of non-feeling, please don't deny yourself drugs simply because you 'don't do drugs."

Stay well--Liz

[fuse]

You do things your way; I do things my way. It doesn't matter how we do it--what matters is that we try. What matters is, if we succeed, we have life.

Good luck and God speed; but--if you ever feel yourself falling into the oblivion of non-feeling, please don't deny yourself drugs simply because you 'don't do drugs."

Hi lizbeth,

I really like this statement. It's fascinating and wonderfully perplexing to me, especially the last part.

I was diagnosed with having a mood disorder when I was 15 and I took the lowest prescribable dosage of Zoloft for about 2 years. What I find so interesting is the whole idea of how we regard psychiatric medication. We can all agree that medicine is extremely useful, but to me it is a real question how much life would be worth if I had to rely on mood stabilizing drugs. I think the important difference between psychiatric drugs and other types of pharmaceutical drugs, like antibiotics for example, is that unlike other kinds of medicine, psychiatric meds directly effect/alter mental states that contribute to personality or who one is as a person. Dependence on psychiatric medication can be viewed as another kind of oblivion.

[Fent]

My depression, since it's the result of a genetic chemical imbalance, is a life-time thing, rather than a recurring or a onetime thing. It's kind of like PTSD--which is a form of depression--only I don't dwell on it. The drug I take is a generic--its brand name is Effexor, which I took before the generic was released. Taking the generic hasn't lowered the co-pay, since the pharm still holds the patent on Effexor, but it should come down by 2015, when the patent runs out.

Effexor was the drug my doctor put me on that helped me. When I first started on meds I was prescribed Zoloft. I took it for 30 days and it didn't do a damn thing, I felt no change whatsoever. When my doc put me on Effexor, the results were immediate. I took a pill before I went to bed that first night, and when I woke up in the morning it was like I was a different person.

My experience was identical. Zoloft seem to just make my teeth clench, Effexor really took away all that stored up intense emotion.

[Blurry]

lizbeth, my choice to not be medicated has nothing to do with just not wanting to do drugs. It has everything to do with the way those drugs make me feel. I've already said, I'd rather go through my ups and downs like a "normal" person than rely on a pill to take it all away. That's not my life. I don't look down on anyone for taking meds, I know some people really need them, but they make me feel helpless over my own mind.

[statiktech]

We can all agree that medicine is extremely useful, but to me it is a real question how much life would be worth if I had to rely on mood stabilizing drugs.

Why should it be worth any more or less?

There is this feeling of gullibility and shame that comes with resorting meds, but nobody cares why. We know the drugs aren't "natural" [by which I mean a necessary dependency], but what of the reasons we take them? We've come to a point where our bodies and minds are repulsed by our lifestyles, however necessary they may be. Thus, we seek means to ease our detachment from what comes natural to us. We stabilize our moods synthetically to suit a synthetic notion of the ideal human condition.

I should be able to wake up happy and enjoy my work. But why? That just isn't how everyone works, yet we all want to.

[Blurry]

I agree with you for the most part, statik, but not completely. I should've addressed this before -- the whole feeling shame for take meds thing. I never felt ashamed of being medicated. I know that some people do, but that is not the rule.

[statiktech]

I agree with you for the most part, statik, but not completely. I should've addressed this before -- the whole feeling shame for take meds thing. I never felt ashamed of being medicated. I know that some people do, but that is not the rule.

Oh, I totally agree. That isn't the rule and part of my point is that it shouldn't be. However, it often is [especially now-a-days] for people who find they have a hard time functioning in every day life. My opinion is that the concern should go toward what is prompting the use of the meds rather than the meds themselves. Instead of the people who rely on the meds being seen as inept in some way, we can determine why our environments have become so unsuitable.

[turtle]

that is what is lacking in our society....
we do not evaluate the problem but just look at the symptoms. we all do it.

[Blurry]

I agree with you for the most part, statik, but not completely. I should've addressed this before -- the whole feeling shame for take meds thing. I never felt ashamed of being medicated. I know that some people do, but that is not the rule.

Oh, I totally agree. That isn't the rule and part of my point is that it shouldn't be. However, it often is [especially now-a-days] for people who find they have a hard time functioning in every day life. My opinion is that the concern should go toward what is prompting the use of the meds rather than the meds themselves. Instead of the people who rely on the meds being seen as inept in some way, we can determine why our environments have become so unsuitable.

And I totally agree with this.

[fuse]

statik,

I should be able to wake up happy and enjoy my work.

Why?

You want to be happy, understandable. Don't you also care about why you're happy?

[statiktech]

You want to be happy, understandable. Don't you also care about why you're happy?

I do quite a bit. I'm just saying that what I desire may not be realistic as a goal for me, or my ideal happiness may not even be attainable.

I don't think I'm happy, when I am, because of any meds. I think they help me to recognize when I am, though.

How does one choose what makes him happy? I can condition myself to be tolerant, humble, and reserved; but how can I force myself to be happy? I can act happy, but the genuine feeling is something largely intuitive. Habituation can help in some regard, but my happiness would be just as synthetic, or consciously formulated, as it is now.

[Fent]

We can all agree that medicine is extremely useful, but to me it is a real question how much life would be worth if I had to rely on mood stabilizing drugs.

Why should it be worth any more or less?

There is this feeling of gullibility and shame that comes with resorting meds, but nobody cares why. We know the drugs aren't "natural" [by which I mean a necessary dependency], but what of the reasons we take them? We've come to a point where our bodies and minds are repulsed by our lifestyles, however necessary they may be. Thus, we seek means to ease our detachment from what comes natural to us. We stabilize our moods synthetically to suit a synthetic notion of the ideal human condition.

I should be able to wake up happy and enjoy my work. But why? That just isn't how everyone works, yet we all want to.

I don't think this is a modern phenomenon though. I think in the past religion played the part that would ease or justify these moods somehow and make them fit into the big picture. Now that religion has almost been eradicated from the West, these wild, intense, or confusing emotions don't seem to fit in anywhere. I think mass people getting drunk and other drug taking is a sign of a temporary relief from the working week's mandatory repression of unwanted emotion in the workplace.

The West has moved to an atomized lifestyle where any form of collectivity only plays second fiddle to individual rights. Not only that, we can no longer believe niavely in an unconscious metaphysics holding any community together. But, people seem most happy when they are a part of something. The nation state tries this through nationalism, but it's only effective for some. I think families and/or social clubs might be the last bastion of community in the West.
It's interesting that depression isn't much of an issue in non-Western countries. I remember reading once that non-Western countries that do have instances of it, is because they've moved to a Westernized lifestyle. So, for all our material, technological, and medical advancements we seem more unhappier than ever. Or, maybe Schopenhauer was right, there is no cure to our predicament?

[statiktech]

Not only do I agree with you, but I'll say that was an altogether excellent post, Fent.

Your initial point about religion is a good one and something I hadn't considered in quite the same light. Definitely some food for thought, at the very least.

Also, I think the answer is in the riddle itself, so to speak--

So, for all our material, technological, and medical advancements we seem more unhappier than ever. Or, maybe Schopenhauer was right, there is no cure to our predicament?

With all of those advancements, and affirmation of materialism, 'objectivity', individuality, etc., I think we've essentially begun to view ourselves as little more than material objects. People are to be treated as ends in themselves, as Kant said, but we have taken to treating each other [and even regarding ourselves] as means. We are, for all intents and purposes, organic machines.

And I think Shope was right. I don't think he saw people as quite so mechanistic, which is why there is no "cure" or solution. There is no "fix" because there is no problem, only a condition. To change our condition is to change precisely that which makes us human. We don't have a choice about being human, but we do have some choice as to how we regard that condition. That is, what kind of 'person' a human being chooses to be.

[lizbethrose]

Again, another general reply. I've spoken about this in the thread "Talk, not Drugs" and, therefore feel no need to repeat my self here. When I talk about the drug I take it's like talking about the electrodes placed in my brain connected to the battery packs in my upper chest. Are they natural? Good heavens, no! If they were, we'd all have been born with them. Do they 'alter' the way my brain works? You betcha!

Here I am--partly "non-natural" chemical (I put that in quotes because all chemicals are 'natural' substances,) and partly mechanical/electrical. I consider them to be appliances, much like my microwave oven or the orthodontic appliances I wore for so many years as I was growing up. Are they 'needed?' The orthodontic appliances reshaped my mouth so I'll be able to keep my own teeth for the rest of my life. My microwave oven lets me zap left-overs when I don't feel like cooking. The electrodes and their attendant battery packs keep me from shaking so much, I can't eat a salad or carry a glass of orange juice to the table (my handwriting is now mostly legible--most of the time.) The script I take allows me to live a 'normal' life.

Could I live without them? Sure--but what do they all have in common for me? Why did I (or my parents) choose them?

They all improve my life.

Pretty simple, no?

[statiktech]

How would you describe a "normal life"?

Also,your condition seems far more complicated than strictly psychological depression.

[Blurry]

Yeah, I was kind of thinking the same as statik here. You're talking about drugs meant to help you stop shaking so you can write legibly and carry juice across the kitchen....um....we're talking about depression.

[Gobbo]

The inability to get out of bed... and do anything.

[lizbethrose]

How would you describe a "normal life"?

Also,your condition seems far more complicated than strictly psychological depression.

I've already described a 'normal life' as being the apex of the bell curve +/-. The 'norm' depends on what 'science' is doing the charting. If, for example, educators, sociologists and psychologists want to establish a 'norm' that indicates the perceived, measurable mental ability to complete a secondary education--or beyond--they develop tests they hope will measure intelligence. If they find the mean level of intelligence to be 100 +/- 10, with the plus being above the apex (right side of the chart) and the minus falling below (left side), they then derive that someone with an intelligence quotient of anywhere from 90 to 110 has the mental capability to graduate from from both high school and college.

The same sort of 'testing' is done to establish what median requirements are needed to live a 'normal' life. This is the sort of 'test' Blurred took when she was diagnosed. If someone falls short of the apex, there's something keeping them from achieving what is labeled 'normal.'

This is where things seem to fall apart and people start to pop pills--because the people who fall below the 'norm' want to reach the 'norm.' They're not interested in the 'whys,'--they're too busy to care about the whys. (Which reminds me of an e. e. cummings poem--"pity this busy monster manunkind...")

At the risk of being presumptuous, I think this is what turtle is trying to discuss in a lot of different threads. What makes the American public so anxious for a 'quick fix' that only addresses symptoms and not the causes. This extends beyond a discussion of depression and/or the use of pharms to ameliorate those symptoms. It includes politics, how and why people vote the way they do and why do such a large portion of our population not vote at all. It involves the costs of scripts and health care in general. If we were able to answer the real question, the "quick fix" question, we might even be able to solve other major problems in our lives.

Stat, you seem to have misunderstood my last post. My lack of proper alignment of teeth in my mouth, my use of a microwave oven, and my electrodes+battery packs weren't meant to define my depression--I've done too much of that already. It was simply to explain how I view all of them, including a script for depression, as appliances and nothing more. My dental alignment was bad, I don't like to cook something new every day, I have essential tremor, and I'm a depressive. So I use(d) mechanical, electrical and chemical 'appliances.' to improve how I live.

I've written about it in many different threads in these forums, primarily because people either don't understand what I'm saying or because I'm not giving them the answer they want to hear. I'm not giving a verbal "quick fix."

I'm sure you'll be able to come up with answers that suit you without my contributions, so I'll no longer try.

[turtle]

lizbethrose you did a good job explaining about depression......
you have your stuff together.....

[uglypeoplefucking]

chronic depression is an absolute bitch - like any other form of chronic pain - anything that alleviates it, including meds and/or talk therapy, is a good thing

[statiktech]

I've already described a 'normal life' as being the apex of the bell curve +/-. The 'norm' depends on what 'science' is doing the charting. If, for example, educators, sociologists and psychologists want to establish a 'norm' that indicates the perceived, measurable mental ability to complete a secondary education--or beyond--they develop tests they hope will measure intelligence. If they find the mean level of intelligence to be 100 +/- 10, with the plus being above the apex (right side of the chart) and the minus falling below (left side), they then derive that someone with an intelligence quotient of anywhere from 90 to 110 has the mental capability to graduate from from both high school and college.

But I'm not talking science or graphical representations. I'm asking what you consider a "normal life".

The same sort of 'testing' is done to establish what median requirements are needed to live a 'normal' life. This is the sort of 'test' Blurred took when she was diagnosed. If someone falls short of the apex, there's something keeping them from achieving what is labeled 'normal.'

Normality is not an absolute, though. She took a test because she suspected a problem. Would she have been "normal" if she never suspected anything or took a test?

This is where things seem to fall apart and people start to pop pills--because the people who fall below the 'norm' want to reach the 'norm.' They're not interested in the 'whys,'--they're too busy to care about the whys. (Which reminds me of an e. e. cummings poem--"pity this busy monster manunkind...")

How do people who fall below the "norm" know there is a "norm" to be reached? I say they aren't interested in the notion of normality so much as they are a solution to some apparent problem.

At the risk of being presumptuous, I think this is what turtle is trying to discuss in a lot of different threads. What makes the American public so anxious for a 'quick fix' that only addresses symptoms and not the causes. This extends beyond a discussion of depression and/or the use of pharms to ameliorate those symptoms. It includes politics, how and why people vote the way they do and why do such a large portion of our population not vote at all. It involves the costs of scripts and health care in general. If we were able to answer the real question, the "quick fix" question, we might even be able to solve other major problems in our lives.

So you're theorizing that an understanding of depression is implicit in an understanding of this apparent 'quick fix' mentality?

Stat, you seem to have misunderstood my last post. My lack of proper alignment of teeth in my mouth, my use of a microwave oven, and my electrodes+battery packs weren't meant to define my depression--I've done too much of that already. It was simply to explain how I view all of them, including a script for depression, as appliances and nothing more. My dental alignment was bad, I don't like to cook something new every day, I have essential tremor, and I'm a depressive. So I use(d) mechanical, electrical and chemical 'appliances.' to improve how I live.

I think I got what you were saying. My point was that your situation seems to justify the use of meds as far as I can tell. The original debate was about using meds for depression as opposed to therapy. Are you looking for a 'quick fix' by taking your meds?

I've written about it in many different threads in these forums, primarily because people either don't understand what I'm saying or because I'm not giving them the answer they want to hear. I'm not giving a verbal "quick fix."

I'm sure you'll be able to come up with answers that suit you without my contributions, so I'll no longer try.

Answers to what? I'd like to clarify that if/when I ask questions, I'm not being indignant or quizzing you. I'm just curious to know your answer. I'm not even arguing with you here, so I'm not sure what kind of "fix" you suspect I'm looking for.

[lizbethrose]

Stat, Your last paragraph said:

Answers to what? I'd like to clarify that if/when I ask questions, I'm not being indignant or quizzing you. I'm just curious to know your answer. I'm not even arguing with you here, so I'm not sure what kind of "fix" you suspect I'm looking for.

I haven't thought of your posts as being indignant or "quizzing me." But I can only tell you what I know through my own experiences. You asked, for example, how I define a 'normal' life. That's a toughie, so I used the example I used. A lot of depressives weren't always depressed and I remember what my life was like before I became depressive. A lot of people would characterize my life as non-normal in the general scheme of things because I'm an Army brat. I use the present tense because that's a part of what I am now and what I'll always be. I never thought that being an Army brat, the daughter of a ranking officer, as anything other than 'normal.' Therefore, talking didn't always work for me. I was tested by a bunch of doctors when I was in the 4th grade--because I'd stopped talking in school. I stopped talking because of Sister Clair Isabel, who had acne and wore jeans under her habit so she could play basketball with the kids after school.

I don't know why I stopped talking because of Sister Clair Isabel, I just know I did. So how did talking to the doctors help? It didn't, other than add bits and pieces to my self-knowledge.

I could go on reciting my experiences with talking, but I choose not to do so. Over the years, I've learned a lot about myself through psychotherapy in both individual and group sessions. When the final experiences happened, the things that finally broke my neural 'chain' of communication, all that was left for me was pharmaceutical compensation--What I choose to see as an 'appliance.'

I said:

At the risk of being presumptuous, I think this is what turtle is trying to discuss in a lot of different threads. What makes the American public so anxious for a 'quick fix' that only addresses symptoms and not the causes. This extends beyond a discussion of depression and/or the use of pharms to ameliorate those symptoms. It includes politics, how and why people vote the way they do and why do such a large portion of our population not vote at all. It involves the costs of scripts and health care in general. If we were able to answer the real question, the "quick fix" question, we might even be able to solve other major problems in our lives.

To which you replied:

[quote]So you're theorizing that an understanding of depression is implicit in an understanding of this apparent 'quick fix' mentality?[/quote}

Not at all, and that's a silly thing to suggest.

You're the only one who can discover what the best way is for you to continue your quest for 'normalcy'--if that's what you're looking for. It can sometimes take a lifetime.

Because it can sometimes take a lifetime, and because people don't want to take a lifetime to learn, they go the 'quick fix' route and pop pills. That's how this "...busy monster manunkind..." works in the US.