Human Depression

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jan 27, 2012 4:03 pm

Anon,
I would agree with you about grief and depression as thwarted attempts to exercize empathy and compassion in the type of society in which we Westerners live. That is different from clinical depression in which one cannot even function well enough to consider problems beyond his/her own suffering.
Since I'm "Up" today, I'll share with you a real experience of dealing with the world outside my head. Over my desk at work I drew a cartoon of ants climbing a hill. All ants but one were carrying food up the hill. One ant was on its back, with the food load on top of him. The caption read "Some days you just can't get it up!" Management was not amused. They disposed of the cartoon in my absence. That says much about tolerance of MIs.
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"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities.
Perspectivism may mean never having to say you're certain.
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Idealism is the balloon that floats from hot air.
Solipsism is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby statiktech » Fri Jan 27, 2012 6:20 pm

Ier,

If you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living? And how do you find motivation to do it, and get through it, every day [assuming you work the standard, 40 hour work week]? I ask because work is something I struggle with to no end. I'm not lazy and I don't dislike people or responsibility. But I have worse days than others, sometimes even weeks or months, wherein I become very withdrawn and the malaise is overwhelming. Simple, cordial conversation with coworkers, alone, is ...brutal. I fight with myself nearly every morning about going in. But the 'machine' has no sympathy for a damaged gear, let alone understanding or tolerance. Either keep things running smoothly or you'll be replaced. Nobody is going to look out, or speak up, for me, and I sure as hell don't go around broadcasting my personal issues. So, I act ...poorly.

The worst part is my company mandates "fun", which essentially boils down to team-building exercises blown way out of proportion. Take around 200 people [90% of which take these events far too seriously], squeeze them all into a conference room filled with snacks and beer, break them up into teams, and have them each perform goofy fucking skits or play pointless games [of some random 'theme'] in front of all their coworkers. This is not "fun" for me. In fact, it is downright horrifying. And not only do they mandate these things as part of the work day, but they take attendance and watch the doors and elevators for people leaving early. I've literally had to go sit in the bathroom during these events before, just to keep it together. Lately, I just haven't been able to do it. I'd rather use the time for actual work, but that isn't an acceptable excuse. People notice too, and aren't bashful about calling others out. If they find out you aren't participating like they think you ought to, they kick the "fun" up a notch by calling you out publicly and making a spectacle of you for everyone's amusement, like a little fucking marionette. That is not a fun, nor tolerable, state of affairs to me. I don't want any part of it whatsoever...

EDIT: I forgot to mention that one of these events is actually taking place today, in a couple hours. The anxiety has already made my perception very surreal. Not a feeling I'm unfamiliar with by any means, but maybe one some of you can relate to.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby lizbethrose » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:56 am

[quote="anon" wrote:
I read the other day that many people would like to expand the scope of clinical depression in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) to include grieving. That strikes me as unhealthy. I think it's unhealthy to think of depression as an enemy to be eradicated.[/quote]

Lizbeth wrote:
Anon, my various MD, have all said depression is either a form of mood disorder or an anxiety disorder. Grief would fall under either of those definitions, but grief is usually not chronic, unless you're a Miss Havisham. Physical trauma can also cause depression, but again, it's usually not chronic.. There can be all sorts of reasons for a chronic anxiety disorder, genetic predisposition can cause chronic depression if the causal factor is severe enough, or happens often enough, to upset the brain chemicals permanently. It's thought that may be what happened to me. We'll find out this summer when my doctor and I discover how I react when I try to get off Effexor.
Grief is normal. Long-term grief isn't.


anon wrote:
]I agree with you, Ierrellus, though I'd add that though long-term grief may not be normal, it may be ok. Or, let me put it this way... our modern culture (especially in America, I think) is so oriented towards Disney-esque entertainment, hyper energy, happy happy bright moods, etc. - you get the picture - that I think we are out of touch with our basic humanity. Our "normal" isn't really normal. I think many people simply have a perfectly valid and reasonable response to the problems and sufferings of the world, and mistakenly think there must be some problem with that. That people don't grieve more than they do for the state of things strikes me as a particularly large problem now. If people want to work with their depression, because it's a problem in some way(s) for them, I think a great start is to understand the fundamental intelligence and humanity that depression represents. It is not an enemy, and it is not solid. It is not something to be gotten rid of.


Anon, I think your link explained what so many people face today. Someone goes to a doctor seeking relief from the normal grief reaction to loss. S/he expects a magical cure--a pill. The doctor may or may not prescribe a mild sedative or short-term anti depressant. But the doctor won't get paid if s/he can't give a bona fide diagnosis and 'grief' isn't recognized as bona fide by the insurance companies.

The current DMS expressly denies grief as a 'proof' of depression unless it continues for over a two month period. What to do? Change the definition, of course. The patient feels s/he has been cared for, the doctor gets paid, the insurance companies raise their rates, and the Pharms sell more drugs. But as the [u]Times{/u] article pointed out, it can be a very dangerous way to go about things. The main reason it's dangerous, imm, is that it reinforces the idea of drugs being the answer.

I feel nothing in depression. I hate it and wouldn't want anyone to suffer from it. I'd rather work my buns off trying to understand and, somehow, through that understanding, do what I can to at least try to change my behavior. I acknowledge some people simply aren't able to do so, I also feel a lot of people can. But, believe me, it takes a horrendous amount of work.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:31 pm

[quote="statiktech"]Ier,

If you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living? And how do you find motivation to do it, and get through it, every day [assuming you work the standard, 40 hour work week]? I ask because work is something I struggle with to no end. I'm not lazy and I don't dislike people or responsibility. But I have worse days than others, sometimes even weeks or months, wherein I become very withdrawn and the malaise is overwhelming. Simple, cordial conversation with coworkers, alone, is ...brutal. I fight with myself nearly every morning about going in. But the 'machine' has no sympathy for a damaged gear, let alone understanding or tolerance. Either keep things running smoothly or you'll be replaced. Nobody is going to look out, or speak up, for me, and I sure as hell don't go around broadcasting my personal issues. So, I act ...poorly.

The worst part is my company mandates "fun", which essentially boils down to team-building exercises blown way out of proportion. Take around 200 people [90% of which take these events far too seriously], squeeze them all into a conference room filled with snacks and beer, break them up into teams, and have them each perform goofy fucking skits or play pointless games [of some random 'theme'] in front of all their coworkers. This is not "fun" for me. In fact, it is downright horrifying. And not only do they mandate these things as part of the work day, but they take attendance and watch the doors and elevators for people leaving early. I've literally had to go sit in the bathroom during these events before, just to keep it together. Lately, I just haven't been able to do it. I'd rather use the time for actual work, but that isn't an acceptable excuse. People notice too, and aren't bashful about calling others out. If they find out you aren't participating like they think you ought to, they kick the "fun" up a notch by calling you out publicly and making a spectacle of you for everyone's amusement, like a little fucking marionette. That is not a fun, nor tolerable, state of affairs to me. I don't want any part of it whatsoever...

Hope you survive the activities. I've heard that if you ask a Japanese person who or what means most to their well-being, they will say the company they work for. Their companies promise and deliver lifetime financial security for workers. To me, they are wage-slave robots. As for me, I'm retired from a couple of years of teaching and over 30 years of retail. Years in which my creativity suffered. I was a fish out of water.
Once you realize that the company games are pure BS, you can fake it with the best of them. Just don't let it hurt you. Your personal integrity is not dependent on such crap. To know better and still play the game is the only thing possible to do in a bad economy in which you could be fired for just a normal down day. Your superiority over this childish "good time day" is in your own mind, really unchallenged. How about "Casual days" in which you can wear clothes to work without being subjected to stupid hats or smocks. Both are token adressings of human dignity. Keep your soul intact by remembering always who you are. Don't let depression tell you anthing different.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities.
Perspectivism may mean never having to say you're certain.
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Idealism is the balloon that floats from hot air.
Solipsism is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.
Atheism is a simplistic response to the complex problem of human need.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby anon » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:55 pm

lizbethrose wrote:I hate it...

Do you hate all aspects of it? I mean, is it "one thing" at all? If not, are there useful aspects and unuseful aspects?
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:31 pm

By the by but quadrupling my dose seemed to have worked. I aint depressed any more, in your face Jebus.
Last edited by Calrid on Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby statiktech » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:18 am

Ier,

Thanks for your response, as always.

Your superiority over this childish "good time day" is in your own mind, really unchallenged.


I took this to heart and have been reflecting on it since. Don't have much to say for now, but it seems that remembering who/what I am directly contradicts a complacency to the will of 'the machine.' Maybe I'm wrong. If so, I hope to discover why...
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:02 am

turtle wrote:What in the world are people talking about when they say a person is depressed?

Someone who is unable to adequately value himself in the terms available to him.

"Adequately" having in mind the standard of health guaranteeing the vitality to fulfill at least some of ones desires once in a while, so as to "keep hope alive"..
It's a vague definition, but everyone has a personal threshold.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:10 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
turtle wrote:What in the world are people talking about when they say a person is depressed?

Someone who is unable to adequately value himself in the terms available to him.

"Adequately" having in mind the standard of health guaranteeing the vitality to fulfill at least some of ones desires once in a while, so as to "keep hope alive"..
It's a vague definition, but everyone has a personal threshold.


Not bad definition but I have all the above when I am depressed, it's how I've learnt to keep hope alive, I've learnt to expect it because it only happens at certain times of the year, it means I can "ignore" the whole depression thing and just function, if barely. Without drugs I would go to sleep practically speaking from September and until the light came back. I feel very sorry for people who have psychological issues, I don't have them. They are lucky though they can get over those, I will never do so while I live North of the tropics, so I have to just cope. My life has been a happy one on the whole so I can't complain, and it's only a little of the year. In a way I look on the positive of my condition, it has made me much stronger mentally than I would of been otherwise. Thank the SSRIs for that, and anyone who says the drugs don't work is an idiot.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:29 am

Interesting what you say about the tropics. That fits my definition in the most simple way imaginable; The unavailable "term" required for you to self-value adequately would simply be sunlight. ? If thats really what's going on then I would conclude from a distance and with limited information that replenishing vitamin D in your body could do the trick as well antidepressants, but in a more direct way. I don't imagine for a second that this is the source of all depression, but it's true that the farther north you get, the more cases of depression you find, so perhaps vitamin D deficiency should be considered by doctors as a cause. The first google hit I get gives some bold propositions:


" One major study done with depressed subjects during Canada's long winter showed a profound increase in vitamin D levels with supplementation of 4000 IU of vitamin D - and a corresponding dramatic increase in the subjects' sense of well-being.

In some research done in 2007, it was found that vitamin D deficiency correlates with depression and anxiety in fibromyalgia sufferers. And mice with abnormal Vitamin D brain receptors (leading to low vitamin D levels) have increased incidence of anxiety, aggression, poor grooming habits, maternal pup neglect, and cannibalism.

Having optimal Vitamin D levels has even been implicated in the prevention of schizophrenia. Male infants who are not supplemented with vitamin D are 12 times more likely to develop schizophrenia than those who receive vitamin D supplementation.

Research shows that the elderly who are vitamin D deficient have 12 times the increase in depression risk. Elderly people with low vitamin D levels are three and a half times as likely to be admitted to a nursing home.

There are a several studies showing that Vitamin D can positively affect seasonal affective disorder (SAD). Some even say that up to 75% of SAD sufferers can reduce their depression with the use of Vitamin D.

And We Do Know that Vitamin D Has Major Effects On the Brain and Neurotransmitters.

It appears that Vitamin D may have a positive effect on the synthesis of excitatory neurotransmitters.

Summer sunlight - which is necessary for Vitamin D production in the body - also increases brain serotonin levels twice as much as winter sunlight. "


http://EzineArticles.com/1983857
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Re: Human Depression

Postby lizbethrose » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:29 am

Nice to see someone finally agreeing with me. Thank you, FC

Turtle asked:
What in the world are people talking about when they say a person is depressed?
I'm not sure I understand. Isn't the more important question what are you talking about when you say you're depressed?

anon wrote:
lizbethrose wrote:I hate it...

Do you hate all aspects of it? I mean, is it "one thing" at all? If not, are there useful aspects and unuseful aspects?


What is 'it?' LOL.

I hate how I feel with depression. I hate having little or no interest in living. I hate how I respond even to a minimum amount of stress. I hate that it seems to have gone on forever.

Are there any "useful aspects" to depression? Only if you take advantage of the drugs and therapy given and work like hell to figure things out for yourself.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:26 pm

Thanks Fixed Cross I've heard of that before but have never seen any studies on it. :)
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:08 pm

vitamin d is a very important problem...there is some
hope here for improved health...but watch out for all the people that will cheat in order to profit..
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Re: Human Depression

Postby statiktech » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:31 pm

I hate how I feel with depression. I hate having little or no interest in living. I hate how I respond even to a minimum amount of stress. I hate that it seems to have gone on forever.


That and the feeling of isolation or detachment. Loneliness, in a word. Unmitigated and perhaps unjustified, but seems so apparent. I generally know when I've become withdrawn because I genuinely want to be left alone, yet, at the same time, loneliness is about the last thing I want to feel. Perhaps loneliness is just easier to deal with than other people sometimes... I don't know.

Are there any "useful aspects" to depression? Only if you take advantage of the drugs and therapy given and work like hell to figure things out for yourself.


God, the Introspection. Not just the time spent, but the sheer depth and brutal honesty of it can be pretty profound. Not always in a 'good' way, but I've certainly come to a few realizations I consider invaluable now. Most are of the sort I was taught to avoid and fight with all my life.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:34 pm

Clinical depression has much to do with one's senses of past, present an future. A truly depressed person sees no future and blames self as responsible for the lack of hope. A truly depressed person's mind "cardstacks" memories of life past, leaving only negative events for consideration. The condition is a mind blaming and attacking itself for being in a now that appears to be going nowhere.
There must be therapeutic help for those who are depressed. Given that meds can help, the next step toward healing is to gain a healthy respect for oneself. This is not an abetting of egocentricity; it is an acknowledgement of one's right to be. You were born. Your right to be is a given, not an idea requiring any sort of proof. After that, one must attempt a more realistic view of his/her past to discover that negative events were not dominant.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities.
Perspectivism may mean never having to say you're certain.
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Idealism is the balloon that floats from hot air.
Solipsism is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.
Atheism is a simplistic response to the complex problem of human need.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:02 pm

one of the best cognitive-behavior tricks that i have heard------"dont believe everything you think"...
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:54 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Clinical depression has much to do with one's senses of past, present an future. A truly depressed person sees no future and blames self as responsible for the lack of hope. A truly depressed person's mind "cardstacks" memories of life past, leaving only negative events for consideration. The condition is a mind blaming and attacking itself for being in a now that appears to be going nowhere.
There must be therapeutic help for those who are depressed. Given that meds can help, the next step toward healing is to gain a healthy respect for oneself. This is not an abetting of egocentricity; it is an acknowledgement of one's right to be. You were born. Your right to be is a given, not an idea requiring any sort of proof. After that, one must attempt a more realistic view of his/her past to discover that negative events were not dominant.


Yeah doesn't help me I've always been awesome, but when depressed you are not in the same frame of mind as you are when content, for example if I was depressed I would of never of said that shockingly arrogant thing, even humorously. I would of probably just said that when I am feeling better I would probably be awesome, but then my depression comes and goes with the season and my mental state matters little. Before meds I could go down in a few days and likewise come out of it in a few days, when nothing mentally had changed for me, no epiphanies, very odd.

I have a pragmatic approach to life, when depressed I just soldier on, and with the meds its manageable, nothing I can do can lift the funk, I have to accept that. It's about light levels, not psychology.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby lizbethrose » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:30 am

Calrid wrote:Thanks Fixed Cross I've heard of that before but have never seen any studies on it. :)


Thanks, Calrid. Didn't I tell you about vitamin D3 some posts back? You must not have believed what I wrote, though, because I'm a woman! ROTFLMAO! :D :D :D
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:10 pm

lizbethrose wrote:
Calrid wrote:Thanks Fixed Cross I've heard of that before but have never seen any studies on it. :)


Thanks, Calrid. Didn't I tell you about vitamin D3 some posts back? You must not have believed what I wrote, though, because I'm a woman! ROTFLMAO! :D :D :D

what do you all know about d3?
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:49 pm

Turtle,
I know nothing of D3. I appreciate, however, your bringing in cognitive therapy. I tell J. her mind lies to her and mine does also. All meds appear dependent on this basic revelation-- questioning what the mind says. You can take all the meds you want and still have lapses into depression if you are unwilling to challenge your negative attitude. Consequently, meds plus cognitive therapy provide the best antidote for major depression.
My friend E. once said I needed to see depression as a storm, noting-- here it comes, here it is, there it goes--all things shall pass. I realize this is difficult to think when one is in the throes of depression. With meds, however, such a thought becomes possible.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities.
Perspectivism may mean never having to say you're certain.
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Idealism is the balloon that floats from hot air.
Solipsism is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.
Atheism is a simplistic response to the complex problem of human need.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:33 pm

lizbethrose wrote:
Calrid wrote:Thanks Fixed Cross I've heard of that before but have never seen any studies on it. :)


Thanks, Calrid. Didn't I tell you about vitamin D3 some posts back? You must not have believed what I wrote, though, because I'm a woman! ROTFLMAO! :D :D :D


I probably missed it because I had my mind on other things, and I can't multi task, because I am a man. :lol:
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

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Re: Human Depression

Postby lizbethrose » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:59 am

turtle wrote:
lizbethrose wrote:
Calrid wrote:Thanks Fixed Cross I've heard of that before but have never seen any studies on it. :)


Thanks, Calrid. Didn't I tell you about vitamin D3 some posts back? You must not have believed what I wrote, though, because I'm a woman! ROTFLMAO! :D :D :D

what do you all know about d3?


turtle, all you have to do is read the thread and talk to your doctor.

Of course you can read everything on Google if you keep in mind that Google will publish contradictory articles because Google publishes those magazines, newspaper articles, blogs, etc. that have paid to be published. Google is a search engine--It won't give an opinion--it simply presents data. Most times the data Google publishes are what it's been paid to publish.

Keep in mind, also, that SAD is, by definition, seasonal. Chronic depression isn't. Chronic depression is long lasting and recurrent and isn't the result of D3 deficiency. It has a myriad of causes. not all of which are understood.

if, in this thread, or anywhere else, I have, in my egoism, given any sort of advice to the chronically depressed other than to say, take your meds, talk to your doctor, and work your ass off to help yourself get rid of this albatross, I apologize. I should have added, don't ever use your illness as an excuse!
"Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:09 pm

lizbeth---is it possible that d3 deficiency is the cause of some chronic depression?
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:54 pm

Today, I'm having to fight depression by finding distractions from its grip on my mind. Had a rotten nightmare, vivid dream, last night. It's trying to color my day black. These nightmares always occur when the air is saturated with water, even if the sun is shining. In my case, arthritic pains translate into bad dreams. This tells me that my depression is physically instigated. D3 would not help much here. And I'm on so many meds that I'm almost afraid to take an OTC pain pill.
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I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities.
Perspectivism may mean never having to say you're certain.
From the mad poet of McKinley Ave.
Idealism is the balloon that floats from hot air.
Solipsism is the last refuge of the intellectually bankrupt.
Atheism is a simplistic response to the complex problem of human need.
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Ierrellus
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:57 pm

Ierrellus wrote:Today, I'm having to fight depression by finding distractions from its grip on my mind. Had a rotten nightmare, vivid dream, last night. It's trying to color my day black. These nightmares always occur when the air is saturated with water, even if the sun is shining. In my case, arthritic pains translate into bad dreams. This tells me that my depression is physically instigated. D3 would not help much here. And I'm on so many meds that I'm almost afraid to take an OTC pain pill.


Ier-----what is your nutrition like?
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