Human Depression

[Calrid]

Welcome to ILP.
http://www.answers.com/topic/bioavailabilty
I've been told that vinegar helps alleviate arthritic pain. After a week or so of eating Kosher pickles and drinking the vinegar, my arthritic pains and consequent bad dreams have become less severe (almost nonexistent). Apparantly, the bioavailabilty inherent in vinegar is enough to prove remedial for me. Biodiversity, however, determines what helps whom.

Interesting, have they sciencified this? Not that I doubt your testimony but anecdotal is anecdotal. There's always that placebo question, the power of which is undoubtedly significant.

[Ierrellus]

Welcome to ILP.
http://www.answers.com/topic/bioavailabilty
I've been told that vinegar helps alleviate arthritic pain. After a week or so of eating Kosher pickles and drinking the vinegar, my arthritic pains and consequent bad dreams have become less severe (almost nonexistent). Apparantly, the bioavailabilty inherent in vinegar is enough to prove remedial for me. Biodiversity, however, determines what helps whom.

Interesting, have they sciencified this? Not that I doubt your testimony but anecdotal is anecdotal. There's always that placebo question, the power of which is undoubtedly significant.

From the skimpy research I've done the vinegar remedy for arthritic pain is still in the "alternative " medical arena. There are several anecdotal references and a few books aout this. If it's a placebo, I don't care. For me it works.

[Ierrellus]

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0808/02/lkl.01.html
I'm including this site here because it deals with depression. I've admired Candice Pert, neuroscientist, since the 1980s. It appears that she has gotten into what some might call "New Wave." The crux of the conversation is that depression is a habit.

[Calrid]

Welcome to ILP.
http://www.answers.com/topic/bioavailabilty
I've been told that vinegar helps alleviate arthritic pain. After a week or so of eating Kosher pickles and drinking the vinegar, my arthritic pains and consequent bad dreams have become less severe (almost nonexistent). Apparantly, the bioavailabilty inherent in vinegar is enough to prove remedial for me. Biodiversity, however, determines what helps whom.

Interesting, have they sciencified this? Not that I doubt your testimony but anecdotal is anecdotal. There's always that placebo question, the power of which is undoubtedly significant.

From the skimpy research I've done the vinegar remedy for arthritic pain is still in the "alternative " medical arena. There are several anecdotal references and a few books aout this. If it's a placebo, I don't care. For me it works.

Quite. Just asking.

[Ierrellus]

Will anybody take the time to read the short transcript? It covers a lot of what has been said here.

[lizbethrose]

Welcome to ILP.
http://www.answers.com/topic/bioavailabilty
I've been told that vinegar helps alleviate arthritic pain. After a week or so of eating Kosher pickles and drinking the vinegar, my arthritic pains and consequent bad dreams have become less severe (almost nonexistent). Apparantly, the bioavailabilty inherent in vinegar is enough to prove remedial for me. Biodiversity, however, determines what helps whom.

Interesting, have they sciencified this? Not that I doubt your testimony but anecdotal is anecdotal. There's always that placebo question, the power of which is undoubtedly significant.

Hoo Ha! don't you mean, has anyone scientifically sanctified a vinegar cure for arthritic pains?

Come on, Calrid, if something works for someone, is it really important to know why? You know that 'phantom' pain can be present in a severed limb. Leave it alone.

[Trevor]

Will anybody take the time to read the short transcript? It covers a lot of what has been said here.

I didn't read the whole transcript nor know what has been said here, but the idea that depression is a habit, something that we're emotionally addicted to, is quite interesting.

[Calrid]

Welcome to ILP.
http://www.answers.com/topic/bioavailabilty
I've been told that vinegar helps alleviate arthritic pain. After a week or so of eating Kosher pickles and drinking the vinegar, my arthritic pains and consequent bad dreams have become less severe (almost nonexistent). Apparantly, the bioavailabilty inherent in vinegar is enough to prove remedial for me. Biodiversity, however, determines what helps whom.

Interesting, have they sciencified this? Not that I doubt your testimony but anecdotal is anecdotal. There's always that placebo question, the power of which is undoubtedly significant.

Hoo Ha! don't you mean, has anyone scientifically sanctified a vinegar cure for arthritic pains?

Come on, Calrid, if something works for someone, is it really important to know why? You know that 'phantom' pain can be present in a severed limb. Leave it alone.

Yes because it might work for others. It's important to trial it to see its efficacy otherwise we might as well just give everyone placebos and hope they get better through the power of suggestion. And of course since vinegar is readily available, it wont get trialled by anything but a charity because there's no money in it, but that's by the by.

If it works for you anecdotally then it just works is no way to help the millions of sufferers out there who could benefit if it was effectively studied.

I know it sounds odd, but not all Science is evil, just my science to create a bomb that will destroy the whole solar system, but then one has to make ends meet by holding the world to ransom for 1 million billion dollars or what have you.

[Ierrellus]

For the past 20 years Candice Pert, co-discoverer of endorphins (endogenous morphine) has mapped these and their receptors in the brain. This is another hint at solving the addiction/habit problem, at least on the level of neuroscientific investigations. Some 20 years before that Donald Hebb noted that frequently used neuronal communication pathways become almost automatic. Putting the two together, one can see how memory and emotion join together in a habitual manner that bypasses most of the prefrontal, left brain anaylses--i.e., where logical choices are made. Depression, in this vein, becomes a memory/emotion habit.

[Calrid]

For the past 20 years Candice Pert, co-discoverer of endorphins (endogenous morphine) has mapped these and their receptors in the brain. This is another hint at solving the addiction/habit problem, at least on the level of neuroscientific investigations. Some 20 years before that Donald Hebb noted that frequently used neuronal communication pathways become almost automatic. Putting the two together, one can see how memory and emotion join together in a habitual manner that bypasses most of the prefrontal, left brain anaylses--i.e., where logical choices are made. Depression, in this vein, becomes a memory/emotion habit.

If only it were that simple, then good therapy would always be effective on its own.

[Ierrellus]

For the past 20 years Candice Pert, co-discoverer of endorphins (endogenous morphine) has mapped these and their receptors in the brain. This is another hint at solving the addiction/habit problem, at least on the level of neuroscientific investigations. Some 20 years before that Donald Hebb noted that frequently used neuronal communication pathways become almost automatic. Putting the two together, one can see how memory and emotion join together in a habitual manner that bypasses most of the prefrontal, left brain anaylses--i.e., where logical choices are made. Depression, in this vein, becomes a memory/emotion habit.

If only it were that simple, then good therapy would always be effective on its own.

I can't say it isn't. In any event Skepitco rakes Pert over to coals for wandering into territories of ideas that are not "scientifically verifiable". One again, left brain, prefrontal lobe logic makes the claim that it is sole arbiter of truth about body/mind.

[Calrid]

For the past 20 years Candice Pert, co-discoverer of endorphins (endogenous morphine) has mapped these and their receptors in the brain. This is another hint at solving the addiction/habit problem, at least on the level of neuroscientific investigations. Some 20 years before that Donald Hebb noted that frequently used neuronal communication pathways become almost automatic. Putting the two together, one can see how memory and emotion join together in a habitual manner that bypasses most of the prefrontal, left brain anaylses--i.e., where logical choices are made. Depression, in this vein, becomes a memory/emotion habit.

If only it were that simple, then good therapy would always be effective on its own.

I can't say it isn't. In any event Skepitco rakes Pert over to coals for wandering into territories of ideas that are not "scientifically verifiable". One again, left brain, prefrontal lobe logic makes the claim that it is sole arbiter of truth about body/mind.

There's no part of the brain that isn't involved in logic, except perhaps Shatner's Bassoon.

[Moreno]

For the past 20 years Candice Pert, co-discoverer of endorphins (endogenous morphine) has mapped these and their receptors in the brain. This is another hint at solving the addiction/habit problem, at least on the level of neuroscientific investigations. Some 20 years before that Donald Hebb noted that frequently used neuronal communication pathways become almost automatic. Putting the two together, one can see how memory and emotion join together in a habitual manner that bypasses most of the prefrontal, left brain anaylses--i.e., where logical choices are made. Depression, in this vein, becomes a memory/emotion habit.

If only it were that simple, then good therapy would always be effective on its own.

Why?

[Ierrellus]

Pert goes so far as to relegate consciousness to every body cell!

[Calrid]

For the past 20 years Candice Pert, co-discoverer of endorphins (endogenous morphine) has mapped these and their receptors in the brain. This is another hint at solving the addiction/habit problem, at least on the level of neuroscientific investigations. Some 20 years before that Donald Hebb noted that frequently used neuronal communication pathways become almost automatic. Putting the two together, one can see how memory and emotion join together in a habitual manner that bypasses most of the prefrontal, left brain anaylses--i.e., where logical choices are made. Depression, in this vein, becomes a memory/emotion habit.

If only it were that simple, then good therapy would always be effective on its own.

Why?

Because good therapy does not work as well as good therapy and/or drugs, at least for most people, yo break someone out of a cycle by words alone, then try doing it when they have drugs too or just drugs alone, get back to me on that one. Some science would be nice...

Everyone has a theory that it's all just habit or it's all just brain chemistry, or it's all just environment or it's all just what? But let me tell you this, I know some pretty smart people in the field with PhD's and the last thing they would do is claim it's solved, trite or down to x or y, or for that matter the whole alphabet! Friend of mine says they're no closer to finding a solution to depression than they ever were, all that is happening is that they are narrowing down on the people it happens to and why, and that focus is so diverse that it will take a long time to figure out exactly what depression is.

Everyone has the answer, try suffering from it. Get back to me when you've walked a mile in everyone's ferking shoes, ffs.


By the way no one would like to see a cure for the blues more than me, but I get kinda tired of people making blanket statements about a complex field and one they know generally nothing about. Think on.
To sum up, there are no easy answers in science, anyone who claims there is, is either a fraud a quack or a layman.

[Moreno]

If only it were that simple, then good therapy would always be effective on its own.

Why?[/quote]

Because good therapy does not work as well as good therapy and/or drugs,

Can you back this up?

at least for most people, yo break someone out of a cycle by words alone, then try doing it when they have drugs too or just drugs alone, get back to me on that one. Some science would be nice...

I am asking you about your assertion.

Everyone has a theory that it's all just habit or it's all just brain chemistry, or it's all just environment or it's all just what? But let me tell you this, I know some pretty smart people in the field with PhD's and the last thing they would do is claim it's solved, trite or down to x or y, or for that matter the whole alphabet! Friend of mine says they're no closer to finding a solution to depression than they ever were, all that is happening is that they are narrowing down on the people it happens to and why, and that focus is so diverse that it will take a long time to figure out exactly what depression is.

I still don't see why if what he said was true about depression would mean that therapy would always be effective on its own. His statement does not indicate how easy or hard it is to change these patterns. Nor does depression being based on emotional habits and memory mean that drugs would or would not aid added to or instead of talk therapy.

Everyone has the answer, try suffering from it. Get back to me when you've walked a mile in everyone's ferking shoes, ffs.

I don't understand why you are aiming this at me. It makes no sense. What is it about what I have written that this makes sense as a response to?

By the way no one would like to see a cure for the blues more than me, but I get kinda tired of people making blanket statements about a complex field and one they know generally nothing about. Think on.
To sum up, there are no easy answers in science, anyone who claims there is, is either a fraud a quack or a layman.

I work in the field. I consider your statement to be facile and confused and that is why I am asking you about it. i don't think your assertion makes any sense, actually, but I am trying to find out more of why you believe it.

By the way, there are easy answers in science. Some things have rather simple explanations. I tend to think this is not the case with psychoemotional issues, but given that the words emotional habits and memories are abstract terms for incredibly complex phenomena, to say these are the root of depression is not offering a simple answer, nor does it make clear what kind of therapeutic approaches will work.

[turtle]

moreno is asking some good questions...
i hope there are some good answers...

[Calrid]

moreno is asking some good questions...
i hope there are some good answers...

What are you his mum.

Going to watch a movie in a few mins. Have to get back to it when time allows...

[Calrid]

@moreno: why do people insist on splitting points up until they become meaningless and lose context? I think you need to read what I said again, I said and or, it's important. If you agree with and or, you are saying you are in none of the camps, drugs alone, therapy alone, or drug and therapy. Which is probably the wisest place to be, given how broad the subject is.

Ok gonna make this simple, I do not think calling all forms of depression habit is apt, the word is hopelessly blunt and could lead to confusion.

For example would you use that term for depression caused by brain damage such as in stroke victims? If so why, and how would you couch it so that you didn't infer that patients became trapped in the sorts of self reinforcing cycles we talk about with "purely" psychological depression if there is a such a thing.

In other words blanket terms like habit are only useful in describing some types of depression not the complete spectrum of mood disorders. If you meant only to include depressive disorders of some types then say you are talking about some disorders not all.

I don't need to know if you are Head of Psychology at the World Institute of Tefal Heads.



Just cite your sources, this is a philosophy forum not a medical journal, your credentials are superfluous.

untab

why is Shatner's Bassoon inherently funny to me? I must start a thread on inherently funny words... Memo to self.

[turtle]

i was impressed that moreno was in the field..
trying to diagnose human depression is a can of worms..

[Gobbo]

I think that depression is a lot more straightforward than people are making it out to be. It's quite the complicated emotion, but a very simple concept.

Depression can be simply characterized by a "depression" in happiness. Specifically depression is either; chronic or acute and chemical or situational.

It is important from a psychoanalytical standpoint to be able to classify as broad of a term as this as simply as possible.

And before people ask, yes, I have been there and back. Life is a much more rewarding experience now.

I see a lot of people discussing nutrition and exercise as well. Both of these play a critical role in the genuine rehabilitation of depression in my opinion. My take on both of this are as straightforward as it was for depression!

Diet: Keep it simple.
Take in plenty of complex carbohydrates, lean protein, and healthy fats throughout the course of five to six equally portioned meals a day.
My take on fats: If I can see it floating at the surface of water at room temperature, I assume that it will do the same in my blood.
My take on carbohydrates: If it isn't brown and doesn't remind me of a fist full of nuts and grain, I avoid it. I generalize everything else as rapid metabolizing (or simple) carbohydrates, which spike insulin levels.
My take on proteins: If it's not lean, I assume that it will not make me lean.

I am also very keen on bioavailability. If you don't know what this is, you should do your research. It deals with the different metabolic properties of different foods. This is a very important aspect of nutrition that is often overlooked.

Exercise: Keep it simple:
Strictly strength training and MMA for flexibility and diversity.
Strength training: Complex exercises only, no isolation (i.e. barbell curls). If it doesn't weight at least 135 lbs and recruit many different muscle groups, I won't lift it. I utilize a strength training program that operates under the principal of liner progression and comprises of five different exercises only, three of the exercises per session, for a total of three workouts a week. It's a simple and quick routine that anyone can do with minimal resources.
Cardio: I don't do it. Strength training has been proven to be far more efficient in maintaining optimal health than anything else. The amount of effort required to squat 285 lbs for 5 sets of 5 three days a week causes your body to go into an incredibly anabolic state. This effort also increases your Basil Metabolic Rate over a course of 24-36 hours. What does this all mean? Increased calories burnt even in the absence of exercise. More, in fact that what can be done with the same amount of time spent on a treadmill. Also, we know that muscle burns far more calories than fat. Increase your lean muscle mass and your metabolism will increase in a directly proportional fashion.

This all fairly well encompasses my take on fitness from a nutritional and physical standpoint.

zzzz.

I was an athlete in college. 2 a day practices. Games. Tournaments. Etc. I ate awesome. Had sex often. Physically I felt super. Physically.

I still had depression. I mean none of all of that changed the fact that we live in a society that, when you look at it, should produce depression, because it is an aberrant environment that promotes psychopathic values. There is literally no good aspect to our society except for maybe.. smartphones. We're heading to what looks like a death for our species, and everyone is in a fucking brainwashed coma. I find it hard to understand how anyone could be happy, given that.

I find it truly confusing the people that can just go out into that, work 8-10 hours a day for nothing that benefits them (except for their wage slave cheque) and then come home and be happy---some joy at some intoxication event on the weekend that will sedate them for a couple hours. Enough to start the week again. I don't see that as happiness. I see that as delusion that people fight me to hang onto. That is, the subconscious belief that in so looking away from the parade of passing shadows on the wall, an individual runs the risk of falling into the depression i have so described.

It's fucking pathetic. Really. Or at least, I'm pathetic. I have this theory that the smarter/more aware you are, the more you are depressed. Some of us have the ability to transmute the immense suffering into something positive, but, I for one usually just rant on philosophy boards.

[turtle]

AF-----it isnt only the world out there but our own private little hells...my hell is people dying...me dying...that is depressing....but death at the right time might be a good release from this hell on earth.....

[Ierrellus]

I agree that the "Camps" of all drug, all talk therapy and drugs plus talk therapy can either be effective or ineffective. The "a priori" info. in the brain is emotional, not logical. Logic is "a posteriori" info. That being said, we must understand that the purpose of having a brain is to establish homeostasis of function of all somatic systems. That purpose is affected by genetic/epigentic/somatic sources of possible information. What Pert is exploring is that neuroplasticity and epigenetics allow a certain leeway in which "positive" thinking can affect "negative" brains physically. This would make sense only to those who agree that mind is physical.
IMHO, the brain's feedback, information loops can get caught up in cycled/recyled habits. In any event, the problem of depression as habit is not a simple one. It has something to do with the pleasure and pain centers in the brain, with emotional thinking and with what information genetics and societies allow .

[Calrid]

I agree that the "Camps" of all drug, all talk therapy and drugs plus talk therapy can either be effective or ineffective. The "a priori" info. in the brain is emotional, not logical. Logic is "a posteriori" info. That being said, we must understand that the purpose of having a brain is to establish homeostasis of function of all somatic systems. That purpose is affected by genetic/epigentic/somatic sources of possible information. What Pert is exploring is that neuroplasticity and epigenetics allow a certain leeway in which "positive" thinking can affect "negative" brains physically. This would make sense only to those who agree that mind is physical.
IMHO, the brain's feedback, information loops can get caught up in cycled/recyled habits. In any event, the problem of depression as habit is not a simple one. It has something to do with the pleasure and pain centers in the brain, with emotional thinking and with what information genetics and societies allow .

Interesting pain/pleasure, how would depression grow in evolutionary terms from feedback form very primitive pain/pleasure centres? I'm not questioning your post, just saying that it would probably be a valid area of research. A fresh approach to depression is always needed. But I have to ask why you came up with that out of the blue? Because I like Ideas out of the blue.

Usually they don't concentrate on very old systems for depression, because animals that are close to us on the evolutionary scale don't tend to suffer from it quite so much, so they tend to look into higher brain function as the cause, in psychological cases this is obviously very pertinent...

[lizbethrose]

Why is it that, for depressives, all roads lead to depression; yet all roads are different?