Human Depression

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: Human Depression

Postby lizbethrose » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:15 am

Ierrellus wrote:
turtle wrote:i dont think this thread is about human depression any longer...

It appears to have become a he said she said personality conflict devoid of the types of complementation necessary for psychic healing.
For Liz, you would probably enjoy this quote from Fromm (1976): "Insight separated from practice remains ineffective."


Thanks, ier, I have Fromm on my bookshelves. Erich Fromm, [u]The Art of Loving.[/u} I'll have to take him down, dust him off, and re-read hiim. As I recall, he was ultimately religious.--I'll try again.

Really, though, what spawns depression?--disappointment in yourself or the people around you?--anger at the world and the people around you?--a sense of some sort of deprivation that keeps you from what you think of as productively living? These are questions directed at the you that is "you." I want to get rid of those question. I want to accept the me that is me--warts and all.
"Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."
— Lewis Carroll
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:28 am

Fixed Cross wrote:I'm not so sure that depression is genetically determined. In fact I am pretty sure it isn't. I would say it is almost purely in circumstance, context. Firstly, the inability to self-value in the terms available in ones surrounding, as in the example of your grandmother, and apparently you, as so many others in this discouraging time; secondly, the actual example of depression in the available terms, environment -- this should amount in a strong impetus to be depressed and want to get out.

Morality is often the thing that keeps us from getting out in another way than killing ourselves or imploding into a psychosis of some sort. It is funny how that works. We are more afraid to inflict minor immoralities or expose ourselves to uncertain conditions that would liberate us from the restricting values around us (your grandmothers case) than we are to commit the far greater "crime" (inflict greater suffering) of suicide. I guess this has to do with victim mentality - suicide allows us to feel that we are the victim, "pure" somehow, and at the same time exert will to power over those we leave behind.


Bi-polar, SAD and Schizophrenia (symptoms often include depression) are genetic or at least have genetic correlations, however its also true that schizophrenia occurs more in people with a traumatic history than those who don't. It's complex there is certainly a genetic correlation, but no gene that says you will become depressive, like in heart disease, certain genes make you more at risk from it, same with certain mood disorders. You have to be careful to separate out correlation and cause.

For example if I moved to the tropics I could stop taking SSRIs in the winter, this certainly means there is no psychological component that solely drives my depression, but there certainly is a predisposition to hyper sensitivity to light in the visual cortex and other systems that regulate circadian rythmns that make it more likely I will have developed SAD. SAD literally does not exist below a certain latitude, its prevelance increases as you move north, with a discrepency in countries that have snow on the ground for much of the winter (higher light levels due to surface albedo). Points clearly to a genetic predisposition and physiological cause. Why is Seratonin re-uptake inhibition effective? Probably because seratonin is a break down product of melatonin which is created by the skin with exposure to sunlight, so correct use of SSRIs will be effective, melatonin injections at mid day in conjunction with light therapy in the morning are more effective still. Therapy is useful only in treating symptoms, and in fact I was advised by my clinical psychologist to just stick to the SSRIs and only book an appointment when I had any issues. I haven't seen him in 8 years, and hope I don't have to. :)
Last edited by Calrid on Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:32 pm

On the nature/nuture argument, I see these as interactive and cannot say that either is totally responsible for depression. I would admit, however, that environment takes the lion's share of the cause. When my mother attempted suicide when I was 10,something in myself saw this as abandonment and blamed myself. When I was raised in a restrictive fundamentalistic church, the outcome was my constant battle toward being social. I cannot blame my parents for their beliefs, so I blamed myself for being torn apart by not being able to be social for so many years. I must add that much of what my parents believed was a valid moral indictment of society in general.
Incidentally, I just found that the national shrine of St. Dymphna is only 13 miles from where I live!
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Re: Human Depression

Postby FilmSnob » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:57 pm

I think Robert Frost is my all-time favourite depressive:

Desert Places

by Robert Frost

Snow falling and night falling fast, oh, fast
In a field I looked into going past,
And the ground almost covered smooth in snow,
But a few weeds and stubble showing last.

The woods around it have it--it is theirs.
All animals are smothered in their lairs.
I am too absent-spirited to count;
The loneliness includes me unawares.

And lonely as it is that loneliness
Will be more lonely ere it will be less--
A blanker whiteness of benighted snow
With no expression, nothing to express.

They cannot scare me with their empty spaces
Between stars--on stars where no human race is.
I have it in me so much nearer home
To scare myself with my own desert places.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:41 pm

Pezer wrote:I think Robert Frost is my all-time favourite depressive:

Desert Places

by Robert Frost

Snow falling and night falling fast, oh, fast
In a field I looked into going past,
And the ground almost covered smooth in snow,
But a few weeds and stubble showing last.

The woods around it have it--it is theirs.
All animals are smothered in their lairs.
I am too absent-spirited to count;
The loneliness includes me unawares.

And lonely as it is that loneliness
Will be more lonely ere it will be less--
A blanker whiteness of benighted snow
With no expression, nothing to express.

They cannot scare me with their empty spaces
Between stars--on stars where no human race is.
I have it in me so much nearer home
To scare myself with my own desert places.

Great poem, expressing internal complicity with external negativity. It's in us to think so!!!
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities."
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:53 pm

i think we are all scared of death.....
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:02 pm

turtle wrote:i think we are all scared of death.....

Only because, regardless of our arguments to the contrary, we see death as final. If final, it consumes all of our concepts of self, even those we see as our being ignored, inadequate, victims, etc. It is this sense of death as final that supports suicidal ideation. It is very difficult for anyone suffering from depression to focus on here and now living when they see death as the great judge of a life with all the facts in. Suicide amounts to leaving jugment, by self or other, up to the cosmos.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities."
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:44 pm

I've just begun group therapy with a NAMI group. It's great to listen and to vent. Also, it's great to be able to do both here!
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities."
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Re: Human Depression

Postby markdaniel69 » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:45 am

I don’t know exactly what people are talking around. But depression is actually a sign of mental disorder. You can say it a psychological problem sometimes. And the best way to get rid of depression is to have fun for a while just forgetting all life problems. :)
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Re: Human Depression

Postby FilmSnob » Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:25 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I've just begun group therapy with a NAMI group. It's great to listen and to vent. Also, it's great to be able to do both here!


You know, I have never been sure whether joining a support group with a bunch of depressives will help or do the opposite. What are your thoughts? Is it like a big vent-fest where the catharsis overpowers the depression?
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Moreno » Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:12 pm

Pezer wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I've just begun group therapy with a NAMI group. It's great to listen and to vent. Also, it's great to be able to do both here!


You know, I have never been sure whether joining a support group with a bunch of depressives will help or do the opposite.
They should alternate meetings so sometimes depressed people are with manic people. Alright, that sounds like a joke, but I think there is a seed of truth in this, especially for bipolars. When you are depressed you have a limited toolkit and when you are manic you have a limited toolkit. And they each have tools the other is missing. Of course a single person can alternate between these states and it is like they drop of one set of tools and ONLY use another. A Jungian union of opposites is needed here and counterbalancing insights.

Note: and this is not to say that life is kinda neutral and depressives are too negative and manics too positive. But rather it is the way their minds work and what they avoid feeling that is opposite. I do not think of mental health as a kind of neutral emotional grey. we should have highs and lows if life is presenting us with requisite events. But self-avoidance - whether of anger, fear, grief, etc. - and the kinds of thought patterns that lock in and create positive feedback loops, these inflexibilities are different in each group.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:52 pm

Fortunately, the NAMI group here is small--6 people at most--and varied as to diagnoses. I'm the only person there with a diagnosis of major depression. Others there are diagnosed as bipolar, etc. One even has the "boy in the bubble" disorder. The good that comes from these meetings is the diversity of diagnoses and the ability to see our "cross to bear" or "thorn in the flesh" as part of who and what we are. It is truly a meeting of peers. The NAMI folks also have retreats and other social events.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities."
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Re: Human Depression

Postby FilmSnob » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:39 am

Ierrellus wrote:Fortunately, the NAMI group here is small--6 people at most--and varied as to diagnoses. I'm the only person there with a diagnosis of major depression. Others there are diagnosed as bipolar, etc. One even has the "boy in the bubble" disorder. The good that comes from these meetings is the diversity of diagnoses and the ability to see our "cross to bear" or "thorn in the flesh" as part of who and what we are. It is truly a meeting of peers. The NAMI folks also have retreats and other social events.


Sounds nice.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby FilmSnob » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:47 am

Had a depressive episode today that wasn't suicidal. I mention that because of the important differences: Being suicidal is more full of passion, it's so intense that suicide becomes an option. You fantazice about escaping, and that helps. Non-suicidal episodes are, in a way, worse. There is no escape, no passion... only the daunting percieved reality of eternal shittyness.

So, this time, instead of deflecting it with rapid-fire distractions like with suicidal episodes, which I treat more urgently, I decided to harness the depression. Thought of some of the darker projects I have always wanted to make and got myself started. I just finished prepping my camera and I am now going to go up to my roof to get some filming done.

Here, I am finally putting into action an element that I have always theorized about in my head: depression is not bad because you are sad or hurting, it is bad because you are not within a life-system that allows your mind to process these feelings. Instead, they kind of stay there and stagnate, like being horny without a girl or hands.

Maybe I'll let you know how this experiment goes.

As I consider not going up at all and just riding the present, my best friend (the devil in my head) reminds me that I made a deal, and that what the devil giveth, the devil can taketh away if you don't payeth up.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:49 am

Certainly be interested, of course that means you have to not kill yourself. Ok that was over the line but you get the point. :)

As someone who has dealt with depression for 30 years I find the topic fascinating, so feel free to wax on.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby FilmSnob » Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:23 am

Wax I shall.

On my way out of my room, with my tripod and my camcorder, I ran into my mom who is in the telephonic middle of a true family shitstorm. As if fate had simply given me this episode so that my psyche would be able to absorb something even more terrible and hardcore. The change of perspective from "harnessing the moment of negativity" to "helping my mother" destroyed any possibility of individualistic action, and my project went down the drain for today.

Just another example, I guess, of how your family can take you from your depression.... even when you don't want them to, and even when it's because they are going through something worse.

My mom's boyfriend called and I am now in a bit of a pause. I hope I can help.


------------------------------------------EDIT---------------------------------------------------


Well, my mom is still on the phone, so I offered to keep helping her tomorrow and am going up to film anyhting really. Sorry if I hijacked this thread a bit, I tend to think that there is no discussion like presentation.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Fixed Cross » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:26 am

Pezer wrote:depression is not bad because you are sad or hurting, it is bad because you are not within a life-system that allows your mind to process these feelings.

Seems right to me.

You're unable to exert/translate/enact your self-valu(ing)(e) (the surplus against the void you have in yourself which is being, be it suffering, joy or whatever) in the available terms around you. Art, in the sense of simply creating something, a thing/reference/image that wasn't there before, is also my only means to forge such a connection where there is none.

Such projects are in my experience, always dark at the outset, as they simply "come out of the dark". But what begins dark is a medium for "light" (fill in the meaning) to manifest.
" The strong do what they have to do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:11 pm

I've recently had a couple of days of depression. During that time my girlfriend said I was bringing her down. I told her I had no plans of becoming depressed; it just happens, and that maybe if it affects her, she shouldn't come around me. She was back the next day. Also a friend keeps telling me that I have no reason to be depressed, that I should count my blessings. So much misunderstanding.
I suffer from painful arthritis and constant rhinitis. When it's goung to rain these physical ailments become painful and translate into mental distress. I don't plan on this happening.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Calrid » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:16 pm

Ierrellus wrote:I've recently had a couple of days of depression. During that time my girlfriend said I was bringing her down. I told her I had no plans of becoming depressed; it just happens, and that maybe if it affects her, she shouldn't come around me. She was back the next day. Also a friend keeps telling me that I have no reason to be depressed, that I should count my blessings. So much misunderstanding.
I suffer from painful arthritis and constant rhinitis. When it's goung to rain these physical ailments become painful and translate into mental distress. I don't plan on this happening.


Yeah try saying to a woman that maybe you shouldn't be around at that time of the month because you are bringing everyone down, and see how far that gets you. ;)

The hypocrisy. ;)
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

Oscar Wilde - probably.
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:22 pm

Calrid wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:I've recently had a couple of days of depression. During that time my girlfriend said I was bringing her down. I told her I had no plans of becoming depressed; it just happens, and that maybe if it affects her, she shouldn't come around me. She was back the next day. Also a friend keeps telling me that I have no reason to be depressed, that I should count my blessings. So much misunderstanding.
I suffer from painful arthritis and constant rhinitis. When it's goung to rain these physical ailments become painful and translate into mental distress. I don't plan on this happening.


Yeah try saying to a woman that maybe you shouldn't be around at that time of the month because you are bringing everyone down, and see how far that gets you. ;)

The hypocrisy. ;)

=D>
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Human Depression

Postby MagsJ » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:16 pm

markdaniel69 wrote:I don’t know exactly what people are talking around. But depression is actually a sign of mental disorder. You can say it a psychological problem sometimes. And the best way to get rid of depression is to have fun for a while just forgetting all life problems. :)
there are many more causes for depression than just 'mental disorder' :doh:
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Ierrellus » Thu Apr 05, 2012 1:58 pm

Magsj wrote:
markdaniel69 wrote:I don’t know exactly what people are talking around. But depression is actually a sign of mental disorder. You can say it a psychological problem sometimes. And the best way to get rid of depression is to have fun for a while just forgetting all life problems. :)
there are many more causes for depression than just 'mental disorder' :doh:

Correct! Depression comes from the interfaces of physical/mental and mental/societal.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
I admit I'm an asshole. Now, can we get back to the conversation?
"If you linger to curse the snake that bit you, you will die of its poison."
Arrogance hides a multitude of insecurities."
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:35 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Magsj wrote:
markdaniel69 wrote:I don’t know exactly what people are talking around. But depression is actually a sign of mental disorder. You can say it a psychological problem sometimes. And the best way to get rid of depression is to have fun for a while just forgetting all life problems. :)
there are many more causes for depression than just 'mental disorder' :doh:

Correct! Depression comes from the interfaces of physical/mental and mental/societal.


i like these posts....i would add for a model of depression---------bio/psy/soc/econ/pol....
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Re: Human Depression

Postby Arcturus Descending » Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:51 pm

turtle wrote:i think we are all scared of death.....

I think that sometimes we are more afraid of Life - afraid to live! Afraid to burst forth out of ourselves.
We are afraid to step out of ourselves, away from ourselves and are afraid to consider that we deserve to be happy. If we chose to be happy and chose to do something about that, we might have to let go of those meaningless things which are more the 'death of us' than the life of us. True freedom comes only at the risk of sacrificing something.

Depression also comes when we are being who we sense and know ourselves NOT TO BE. We allow others to define us and we live the lives that others choose for us - that others say we ought to live. Just whose life is it anyway?!

Why? We enjoy our self-made prisons. Why - answer that question, and the bars will begin dissolve around us and we will fly free or at least we can begin hopping around and testing our wings - and then up some point - there is the freedom that is enjoyed by the flight.
~ Carlos Ruiz Zafon

“One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. By the time the mind is able to comprehend what has happened, the wounds of the heart are already too deep.”

“But in good time you'll see that sometimes what matters isn't what one gives but what one gives up.”

A room without books ..is like a body without a soul.”

“I couldn't help thinking that if I, by pure chance, had found a whole universe in a single unknown book, buried in that endless necropolis, tens of thousands more would remain unexplored, forgotten forever. I felt myself surrounded by millions of abandoned pages, by worlds and souls without an owner sinking in an ocean of darkness, while the world that throbbed outside the library seemed to be losing its memory, day after day, unknowingly, feeling all the wiser the more it forgot.”
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Re: Human Depression

Postby turtle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:01 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
turtle wrote:i think we are all scared of death.....

I think that sometimes we are more afraid of Life - afraid to live! Afraid to burst forth out of ourselves.
We are afraid to step out of ourselves, away from ourselves and are afraid to consider that we deserve to be happy. If we chose to be happy and chose to do something about that, we might have to let go of those meaningless things which are more the 'death of us' than the life of us. True freedom comes only at the risk of sacrificing something.

Depression also comes when we are being who we sense and know ourselves NOT TO BE. We allow others to define us and we live the lives that others choose for us - that others say we ought to live. Just whose life is it anyway?!

Why? We enjoy our self-made prisons. Why - answer that question, and the bars will begin dissolve around us and we will fly free or at least we can begin hopping around and testing our wings - and then up some point - there is the freedom that is enjoyed by the flight.


arc----beautiful...i see the poet in you....... ....freeeeeeeeeeeeee the spirit ....yes....
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