Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:06 pm

As many of you may know, contrary to the popular understanding of the introvert as someone who is shy and the extrovert as outgoing, Jung’s Personality Types describes it as being a matter of how one relates to the world of objects. For the introvert, everything starts in the self and returns to it. The introvert, in other words, is a little like an intellectual groundhog that goes out into the world and reality, collects what it can of it, and then takes it back to its own little hole. For the extrovert, everything begins and ends in the world of objects. This is not to say they are these vacuous zombies that act in the world and don’t think about it. They certainly think. It’s just that the weight of their focus tends to be on the outside world.

That said, I think this model can give us better understanding of the liberal and conservative mindset. For the liberal who tends to be more inclined to the introverted, everything has a more ethereal that always warrants deconstruction. Their world, being the world of the mind, tends to be an ever shifting dynamism that can never be perfectly pinned down. This, for instance, explains the liberal deficiency when it comes to communicating their interpretation of reality. Jung, himself, in Personality Types expressed sympathy for the introvert as struggle to express themselves. (It should also be noted here that Jung was deeply implicit in the Nazi movement which was clearly right wing and, as will be explained in the next paragraph, extroverted to an extreme.) He, furthermore, noted that the extroverted type tended to be more abundant.

The extrovert, being more orientated to the world of objects, would tend to be more orientated to materialism and common assumptions and dogmas (which are always “out there”) with less inclination to self deconstruct; in other words: a conservative.

Now where it gets really interesting is when Jung describes the respective maladies that tend to haunt each type. But before I get into it, I need to first explain the role that the subconscious plays in this. For Jung, it often plays the role of counter-balance to what is going on in the conscious mind. For instance, one might be a peacenik or pacifist because of violent tendencies going on in the subconscious. Or they might be violent towards women because they want the love and security of their mothers.

That explained to the best of my ability, I can’t remember the name Jung gave to it, but the malady he attributed to the introvert was a situation in which the individual is subconsciously drawn towards objects while being simultaneously repelled. This is the part that gives me some confirmation of the model since, myself being an introvert; it gives me an explanation of a lot of my behavior. For instance, it could well explain my Marxist sympathies and issues with Capitalism in that I could well be attracted to objects provided by materialism at a subconscious level while being repulsed by the attraction. There’s a kind of push-pull relationship between me and the things I could buy. It could also explain my relationship with women since we all are, from a phenomenological/ontological perspective, objects occupying each other’s space. The sense of The Other as a perceiving thing requires a leap of faith.

The malady that tends to afflict the extrovert is Hysteria. This results from the extrovert’s repulsion to the inner life which causes the subconscious, in its countering capacity, to well up and overwhelm the conscious. This would explain many of the things you tend to see among the more extreme factions of the conservatives. Ironically, it would also explain the extremes of the NAZI party that Jung participated so willingly in. It also tells us something about the authoritarian mindset.

It would also be important to note here that it would seem natural for people in the dire circumstances the Germans were in from the end of WWI to the rise of Hitler to lean to the more extroverted side of the spectrum. Objects, such as food, sustain the mind. Therefore, it would seem natural for the absence of those objects to focus the mind outward.
Last edited by d63 on Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Only_Humean » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:48 pm

Moved to Psych, I think you might get more (informed?) comment there :)
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:05 pm

Only_Humean wrote:Moved to Psych, I think you might get more (informed?) comment there :)


I appreciate your effort to get this noticed.

But given the driveby nature of what we do here, some things will get overlooked for reasons not totally invovled with the quality of the post.

I keep trying to think of things to add to it to keep it at the the top of the cycle. And will continue to do so. And I may get a chance to slip it in to another string.

But if it doesn't get noticed, it doesn't get noticed.

Nevertheless, thanks, friend: for your appreciation as well as your effort. The appreciation of someone who had the brains to put something like this together is as about as much, if not far more than I could expect.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:25 pm

I need to think more about this before offering comment; however, I'm happy to see Jungian psychology interpreted as affecting political beliefs and consequent actions.
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby septimus » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:06 am

I am quite an introvert, I value myself, my well being and my happiness above all. I love money and being able to buy what I want. I am very career/business oriented. Those traits are of an extroverted conservative, rather than introverted moderate. Also, a democratic position, even socialist one tends to lean on society, "the people", collectivism which is pretty different from the mindset of an introvert. I do not think that these two very simple categories can make up for the vast psycho-political picture. I'm just an egoist and an individualist, those traits actually are responsible for my political leanings.
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Sauwelios » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:06 am

One word: Eysenck.

    The psychologist Hans Eysenck theorised
    that Fascism and Communism, though diametrically opposed on the traditional
    Left-Right spectrum, had something essential in common. This, he suggested, was
    the 'toughmindedness' of Fascism and Communism alike. Toughmindedness is
    connected with extroversion and low conditionability and inhibitability. For an
    example of conditioning, one should think of Pavlov's dogs. "To inhibit" in this
    context means to temporarily wean from conditioning. People who are easy to
    condition (and thereby to inhibit) tend to be introverts, because they tend to
    avoid stimulation, as they are easily overstimulated. For this reason they tend
    to be 'Liberals', that is, take a political position of seeking to curb
    expressions of aggression and sexuality.

    'Liberals' in this sense [tend] to be in the center of the traditional Left-Right axis,
    which I think is because for them the individual is prior to society. For this
    reason, they tend to be opposed as much to statelessness (as in Marxian
    Communism) as to totalitarianism (as in Mussolinian Fascism). They are opposed
    to statelessness because statelessness, contrary to what Marx thought, would of
    course mean anarchy, the state of nature, the war of all against all (or, as
    Nietzsche implied in The Greek State, the war of all families against all
    families). And they are opposed to totalitarianism because they feel the
    individual should be above the state (we should probably think of Kant here, who
    thought the individual should never be treated as a means: and indeed, "Liberal"
    here means Enlightenment Liberal).

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/human_superhuman/message/491

P.S.: True hysteria---hysteria of the type Jung meant---is a pathological condition of extroverts, i.e., people of low conditionability and inhibitability. It works like this: a great physical mass has a great inertia, i.e., it takes great force to get it to move; but once it's in motion, it takes great force to stop it. Thus when extroverts have finally gotten into a state of over-excitement, it's very hard to calm them down again.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:02 pm

Sauwelios wrote:One word: Eysenck.

    The psychologist Hans Eysenck theorised
    that Fascism and Communism, though diametrically opposed on the traditional
    Left-Right spectrum, had something essential in common. This, he suggested, was
    the 'toughmindedness' of Fascism and Communism alike. Toughmindedness is
    connected with extroversion and low conditionability and inhibitability. For an
    example of conditioning, one should think of Pavlov's dogs. "To inhibit" in this
    context means to temporarily wean from conditioning. People who are easy to
    condition (and thereby to inhibit) tend to be introverts, because they tend to
    avoid stimulation, as they are easily overstimulated. For this reason they tend
    to be 'Liberals', that is, take a political position of seeking to curb
    expressions of aggression and sexuality.

    'Liberals' in this sense [tend] to be in the center of the traditional Left-Right axis,
    which I think is because for them the individual is prior to society. For this
    reason, they tend to be opposed as much to statelessness (as in Marxian
    Communism) as to totalitarianism (as in Mussolinian Fascism). They are opposed
    to statelessness because statelessness, contrary to what Marx thought, would of
    course mean anarchy, the state of nature, the war of all against all (or, as
    Nietzsche implied in The Greek State, the war of all families against all
    families). And they are opposed to totalitarianism because they feel the
    individual should be above the state (we should probably think of Kant here, who
    thought the individual should never be treated as a means: and indeed, "Liberal"
    here means Enlightenment Liberal).

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/human_superhuman/message/491

P.S.: True hysteria---hysteria of the type Jung meant---is a pathological condition of extroverts, i.e., people of low conditionability and inhibitability. It works like this: a great physical mass has a great inertia, i.e., it takes great force to get it to move; but once it's in motion, it takes great force to stop it. Thus when extroverts have finally gotten into a state of over-excitement, it's very hard to calm them down again.


Excellent points, Sauwelios. You certainly gave it a scholarly edge beyond what I'm capable of.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:10 pm

septimus wrote:I am quite an introvert, I value myself, my well being and my happiness above all. I love money and being able to buy what I want. I am very career/business oriented. Those traits are of an extroverted conservative, rather than introverted moderate. Also, a democratic position, even socialist one tends to lean on society, "the people", collectivism which is pretty different from the mindset of an introvert. I do not think that these two very simple categories can make up for the vast psycho-political picture. I'm just an egoist and an individualist, those traits actually are responsible for my political leanings.


Actually, I've met a few reticent conservatives myself. But once again, being shy or reticent is only a contingent aspect of extroversion. The only necessity is that the orientation be towards the world of objects. Plus that, you have bare in mind that the introvert/extrovert relationship is not one of either/or, it's more of a spectrum that people can fall at any point of.

And being an introvert myself, on a good night at the bar, I can be as social as anyone. And while I do have a kind of push-pull relationship with the world of objects, I like having things as well. The difference is that I simultaneously tend to have reservations about it as well.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:47 pm

I'm conservative about some issues and liberal about others. I really don't see how my nature as an introvert decides which belief I will adhere to. I think we all swing both ways depending on need at the time.
"We must love one another or die." W.H.Auden
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:21 am

Ierrellus wrote:I'm conservative about some issues and liberal about others. I really don't see how my nature as an introvert decides which belief I will adhere to. I think we all swing both ways depending on need at the time.


Once again:

It's not an either/or situation.




Even as Jung described it, it's more of a spectrum within which


we shift from time to time.


Most of us are not an extreme either.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:24 am

And as Jung pointed out:


all he can provide are models to work from in order to understand things:



it is by no means a mirror to the world.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Xunzian » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:44 am

I dunno. When I look at things like Bitcoins and the Silk Road, I see the Libertarian Dream: to be able to anonymously order drugs on-line and not interact with anyone. That is the view I think introverts tend towards, whereas an extrovert is part of the community regularly interacting with other people so of course they lean left.

Because I'm an extrovert and I'm a leftist. Therefore, both extroverts and leftists are better than introverts and rightists. So, to be extroverted is better than to be introverted. To be leftist is better than to be rightists. From that it follows that good people are like me and be they either extroverted (a good thing) or leftist (a good thing) they are much more likely to be both, because they are good people (people like me) and like good things (things that I like).

That is to say, personal bias tends to shape these sorts of discussions in very silly ways.
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:20 am

It's all kind of a mixed package:


we can never pin it down to one model.


If we could, it would be lot easier to find a solution.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:22 am

What I tend to see, especially when I see beer commercials, are extroverts and players who have a lot at stake in the system as is.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:24 am

I even see them in real life in bars.

And they quite often tend to be Libertarians and Conservatives
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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d63
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:44 am

Xunzian wrote:I dunno. When I look at things like Bitcoins and the Silk Road, I see the Libertarian Dream: to be able to anonymously order drugs on-line and not interact with anyone. That is the view I think introverts tend towards, whereas an extrovert is part of the community regularly interacting with other people so of course they lean left.

Because I'm an extrovert and I'm a leftist. Therefore, both extroverts and leftists are better than introverts and rightists. So, to be extroverted is better than to be introverted. To be leftist is better than to be rightists. From that it follows that good people are like me and be they either extroverted (a good thing) or leftist (a good thing) they are much more likely to be both, because they are good people (people like me) and like good things (things that I like).

That is to say, personal bias tends to shape these sorts of discussions in very silly ways.


I think you're describing a really weird anomoly.

There are of course, the isolated militia type like Timothy McVeigh. But they're pretty rare among introverts.

Now what you might be describing is what Bob Altymeyer described in the authoritarian personality, which something quite different than the extroverted authoritarian. It was the dominater type. They're the ones that come along and give the extroverted authoritarians something to follow -much like Hitler who was a reticent type.

Plus that, I think you failed to recognize the main point about the introvert/extrovert spectrum. It's not about being shy or social, it's about an orientation to the world of objects. The person you describe may do so because they're more into accumulating objects than they are being around other people.

Sorry, bud, but I have to disagree with you on this point.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:45 am

Nice try though.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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d63
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Xunzian » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:13 pm

I think you missed the point.

My point is that we allign the system such that it agrees with our baises and makes us out to be the hero.
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:01 am

Xunzian wrote:I think you missed the point.

My point is that we allign the system such that it agrees with our baises and makes us out to be the hero.


I think I get your point on this. And you may well be right that I did miss your point. But you'll have to elaborate and refer it somewhat to the history of this particular exchange between us.

Given the decency and intelligence you've showed so far, I have to assume that your point warrants some consideration. But you'll have to elaborate.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Lollipop King » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:18 pm

Perhaps what merits consideration is politeness.

Be as obtuse and shallow as you wish...but do it nicely.
We'll all listen....with gaping mouths, as if something awe inspiring is being stated.

The British were masters at this.
They never produced any thinkers of any merit, besides an odd few, but they spoke with such eloquence and civility, and that stiff-upper lip that feigned reasoning, that all stop to listen to them speak.
All feel like something intellectual is being said when they read from a phone-book, or when they recite a verse from Cat with a Hat.
Even an imbecile is raised to the heights of enlightenment, when he is allowed to listen.
Lecter, Hannibal wrote:Now you're being rude, and I hate rude people.
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Xunzian » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:25 am

All I'm saying is that a conservative introvert is likely to think that all good rightist are introverts and all good introverts are rightists. Likewise, a rightist extrovert is likely to think that all good rightists are extroverts and all good extroverts are conservative. An introverted leftist will think that all good introverts are leftists and all good leftists are introverts. An extroverted leftist will think that all good extroverts are leftists and all good leftists are extroverts.

I'm saying it is a matter of personal bias, more than anything. I'm an extrovert and a raging leftist. Consequently, it follows that I think there is a relationship between extroversion and leftism. I'm guessing you are an introvert and a leftist, so you observe a relationship between introversion and leftism. Likewise, Saully is a known introvert, so it makes sense that he would provide a citation that lauds the introverted world view.

That is all.
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:16 pm

Xunzian wrote:All I'm saying is that a conservative introvert is likely to think that all good rightist are introverts and all good introverts are rightists. Likewise, a rightist extrovert is likely to think that all good rightists are extroverts and all good extroverts are conservative. An introverted leftist will think that all good introverts are leftists and all good leftists are introverts. An extroverted leftist will think that all good extroverts are leftists and all good leftists are extroverts.

I'm saying it is a matter of personal bias, more than anything. I'm an extrovert and a raging leftist. Consequently, it follows that I think there is a relationship between extroversion and leftism. I'm guessing you are an introvert and a leftist, so you observe a relationship between introversion and leftism. Likewise, Saully is a known introvert, so it makes sense that he would provide a citation that lauds the introverted world view.

That is all.


Yes, we do have to consider the egocentric dilema involved in this.

But you do make good point,Xunzian. Right on!

But I'm not totally convinced there isn't a correlation between extroversion and conservatism. For me, it lies in the inherent logic of the the two. But once again, as Jung admitted himself, we're talking about a mental model and not reality itself. All we can do with it is apply it to reality and see how it works out.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Xunzian » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:21 am

I'm just saying that you are liking introverts with the Aristotelian concept of the virtuous life and extroverts with the Aristotelian concept of the base life. I disagree with such a perception.

Indeed, I'd argue that is why introverts tend to be conservatives because in shunning healthy social behavior they turn everything into a commodity. An extrovert doesn't find their energy in other people as a function of their perceiving those other people to be a commodity. Commodification represents the worst sort of reactionary conservatism.
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby d63 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:07 pm

Xunzian wrote:I'm just saying that you are liking introverts with the Aristotelian concept of the virtuous life and extroverts with the Aristotelian concept of the base life. I disagree with such a perception.

Indeed, I'd argue that is why introverts tend to be conservatives because in shunning healthy social behavior they turn everything into a commodity. An extrovert doesn't find their energy in other people as a function of their perceiving those other people to be a commodity. Commodification represents the worst sort of reactionary conservatism.


No, that was not my intention at all. And I apologize if it came off that way. For one, we're not talking about an either/or dichotomy here, but rather a spectrum in which most of us tend to lie somewhere in between. Secondly, even with the inherent logic, there is still any number of variation that might occur. For instance, a lot of those who lean toward the extroverted side, may be particularly a-political because a preoccupation with day to day matters. And there may, as well, be introverts who, because their tendency to shun the outer world, might choose, for instance, to become poets or artists with little to no political concern. I consider Rob Zombie a highly introverted artist. And as far as I know, he's said little to nothing as concerns his political views. And if he did, it wouldn't surprise me to find out his orientation was more toward a kind of libertarian conservatism due to his flirtations with satanism -which is explicitly libertarian.

Nor would I argue that being an introvert makes one immune to evil. Similar to your argument, I would argue that the kind inwardness at issue here could very well lead to the kind of solipsism typical of serial killers. Especially given the kind of push-pull relationship the introvert has with the world of objects. But no more than I would argue that extroversion equals evil, I certainly wouldn't argue that introversion automatically assumes solipsism or the potential for serial killing.

Solipsism, due to our egocentric dilemma, and the leap of faith required in assuming the other has a perceiving thing, is a general disposition among introverts and extroverts alike. And this why I have to disagree with your attempt to make comodification the exclusive property of the introvert. It seems to me, given the extrovert's orientation to the world of objects, they would be equally prone to commodification: the utilization of others as a means to an end. This can certainly be seen in the activities of players (who are clearly extroverted) who tend to see each other as a means to sex.

That said, my primary point was working from the given political positions to the introvert/extrovert spectrum. It just seemed to me to explain the positions that a lot of my conservative friends take: positions that tend to center around material well-being. It also explained their propensity toward popular opinions and assumptions, with what is apparently little relflection, since these opinions and assumptions are decidedly "out there". Further, it explained to me the tendency of progressives to be more self-deconstructive and self scrutinizing which finds expression in their less assertive manner of stating positions. While this has been their strength in building their arguments, I also think this has been their liabilty in the general political discourse. They're too hesitant and timid for their own good. I would also argue that this why more introverts turn to art and tend to be more successful at it -not the the so-called leftist conspiracy of the media many conservatives tend to embrace.

The main thing to keep in mind here, Xun, is that you can't talk about causes, especially in the social sphere, as much as you can contributing factors. No matter what theory we present, it will always be incomplete. And it certainly wasn't my intention to pose the personality types as causes. I was merely pointing to possible contributing factors.
Humble yourself or the world will do it for you -it was either Russell or Whitehead. I can't remember which.

When I was young, I use to think the world was a messed up place so i was pissed off a lot. But now that I'm older, I know it is. So I just don't worry about it. -John Lydon (AKA Johnny Rotten).

Anarchy through Capitalism -on a flyer thrown out during a Kottonmouth Kings concert.

First we read, then we write. -Emerson.

All poets are damned. But they are not blind. They see with the eyes of angels. -William Carlos Williams: in the introduction to Ginsberg's Howl.

You gotta love that moment when the work is done and all that is left to do is drink your beer and sip your jager and enjoy what you've done. It's why I do and love it.

I refuse to be taken seriously.

Once again: take care of your process and others will take care of theirs. No one needs a guru. Just someone to jam with.

:me
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Re: Introverts, Extroverts, & Political Positions

Postby Xunzian » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:24 pm

I can agree with much of what you wrote, I'm just saying that for an extrovert "the world of objects" isn't about material things, it is about other people. Hence extroversion. By saying that the extrovert begins and ends in the world of objects rather than beginning and ending in the worlds of others I feel you are commodifying other people, which is bad. And also misses the point.
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