First memory

The origins of the imperative, "know thyself", are lost in the sands of time, but the age-old examination of human consciousness continues here.

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Re: First memory

Postby Spiralize88 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:59 am

Ierrellus wrote:In 1947 I was 5. Mom was ironing clothes while listening to radio "soaps". I was playing battle with my toy soldiers on the floor. The distinct odor of heated starch and "A certain slant of Light" (see Emily Dickenson's poem about this.) gave me a feeling of being unreal. That was the beginning of my sense of being different from most other people.
When he was five or six, my son claimed to remember that he existed before he was born. Years later I considered what fetal memory might include and what aspects of religion and psychology could come from that source.

I love this. I seem stuck in a similar area. The other night I teetered on the threshold of dream and consciousness and the bizarre memories I experienced were not from my own life, but they contained immense contextual depth of something I had no previous conscious knowledge of. Things like these keep me up at night sometimes. I find it fascinating your son remembered that he existed before he was born. What did he mean by that?
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:00 pm

Spiralize88 wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:In 1947 I was 5. Mom was ironing clothes while listening to radio "soaps". I was playing battle with my toy soldiers on the floor. The distinct odor of heated starch and "A certain slant of Light" (see Emily Dickenson's poem about this.) gave me a feeling of being unreal. That was the beginning of my sense of being different from most other people.
When he was five or six, my son claimed to remember that he existed before he was born. Years later I considered what fetal memory might include and what aspects of religion and psychology could come from that source.

I love this. I seem stuck in a similar area. The other night I teetered on the threshold of dream and consciousness and the bizarre memories I experienced were not from my own life, but they contained immense contextual depth of something I had no previous conscious knowledge of. Things like these keep me up at night sometimes. I find it fascinating your son remembered that he existed before he was born. What did he mean by that?

Welcome to ILP! Read Wordsworth's "Ode On Intimations of Immortality From Recollections of Early Childhood". I think that poem explains the feeling my son and many others have. My own experience was more about an early recognition of difference. Your experience of hovering between being awake and dreaming is interesting. In my dreams i meet, and am familiar with, persons and places I never knew when awake. These are places in the human mind left mostly unexplored.
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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:54 pm

Ierrellus wrote:In 1947 I was 5. Mom was ironing clothes while listening to radio "soaps". I was playing battle with my toy soldiers on the floor. The distinct odor of heated starch and "A certain slant of Light" (see Emily Dickenson's poem about this.) gave me a feeling of being unreal. That was the beginning of my sense of being different from most other people.
When he was five or six, my son claimed to remember that he existed before he was born. Years later I considered what fetal memory might include and what aspects of religion and psychology could come from that source.

My husband constantly talked to my stomach as did I from the time we found out that I was pregnant til birth, my husband did it ,even while I was asleep. The boy knew his Dad and I. when he was put into our arms he stopped crying
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:45 pm

Kriswest wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:In 1947 I was 5. Mom was ironing clothes while listening to radio "soaps". I was playing battle with my toy soldiers on the floor. The distinct odor of heated starch and "A certain slant of Light" (see Emily Dickenson's poem about this.) gave me a feeling of being unreal. That was the beginning of my sense of being different from most other people.
When he was five or six, my son claimed to remember that he existed before he was born. Years later I considered what fetal memory might include and what aspects of religion and psychology could come from that source.

My husband constantly talked to my stomach as did I from the time we found out that I was pregnant til birth, my husband did it ,even while I was asleep. The boy knew his Dad and I. when he was put into our arms he stopped crying

Thanks, Lady K., and good to see you if only in type script. I've been trying for some time to explore memory of being a fetus. Not much about it in the net. Yet, the idea does explain Eden, Gaia, the Golden Age, Heaven, etc. as innocence prior to experience (Blake). I think that if Freud were alive now, he'd probably make much more of womb security than he did back when. First memory for anyone is probably floating in a bubble of warmth, being given nutrients without exertion or toil and existing in an intimacy we spend our lives attempting to restore.
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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:13 pm

HI my friend! it is always good to read you. I would think that being carried around in a liquid for 9 months the sounds the fetus hears would create some memories. Contact and connection, My mother ate PBJs all through her pregnancy with me, I know I love that particular simple sandwich as a favorite food. Sound though i think would affect a fetus more than anything. as I said the boy knew us both but no other person, he cried in the arms of even family. His Dad's heartbeat as my husband cuddled with me could have become familiar , the sound of the voice,, Creating memories of sorts,, its the imaging that is interesting . what images could be formed?
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:13 pm

Kriswest wrote:HI my friend! it is always good to read you. I would think that being carried around in a liquid for 9 months the sounds the fetus hears would create some memories. Contact and connection, My mother ate PBJs all through her pregnancy with me, I know I love that particular simple sandwich as a favorite food. Sound though i think would affect a fetus more than anything. as I said the boy knew us both but no other person, he cried in the arms of even family. His Dad's heartbeat as my husband cuddled with me could have become familiar , the sound of the voice,, Creating memories of sorts,, its the imaging that is interesting . what images could be formed?

We're getting into ontological memory here. Although such an idea has many opponents, it has few who have not experienced it. A warm bath in a tub full of water can put one in a state of "God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Perhaps we should consider the womb experience a precusory memory, a recollection of experiences that occur before some mind can call it a memory. I believe you about your son's preference and where it came from. Imaging may exist as touch and sound vibrations in a fetus as you express well here.
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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:44 pm

Herre is a question/s do colors only exist for the sighted? Do those that can't see have images of various colors and can we have colors in our minds as fetuses?
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:10 pm

Kriswest wrote:Herre is a question/s do colors only exist for the sighted? Do those that can't see have images of various colors and can we have colors in our minds as fetuses?

Lady K.,
I don't know if Spiralize88 would want us to go into these areas of thinking. But, I'll persist unless told otherwise. There was a thread on color perception. Can't remember when and where it was. Oliver Sachs tells of several instances of blind persons "knowing" what colors are. The brain equipment for discerning color exists in blind persons. It could also exist in fetuses. The development of their brains into ability to think comes after they are born. I firmly believe a fetus "knows" color by senses that are developed in the womb.
On "memory" in general, I think that the search for the engram or "Grandmother " cell (what makes you remember your grandma's face) are now oudated. Early on Donald Hebb showed how memory begins on the human biochemical level. He noted that, if certain neural routes are used again and again, they become the "preferred" routes and are used almost automatically, e.g., learning to drive a car. Perhaps much of what the philosophers call "sensory" data (what senses perceive) has already become "automatic" in fetal brains.
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:44 pm

There is more on the net about fetal memory than I suspected. Did a search "memory in a fetus" and found numerous articles on this. Several of the articles have to do with a study of fetuses subjected to sounds.

"IN a study of 100 pregnant women in the Netherlands, researchers say they have found evidence that fetuses have short-term memory of sounds by the 30th week of pregnancy, and develop long-term memory after that." ABC NEWs article "The Earliest Fetal Memory", July 15th, 2009.
I suspect that the sense of touch occurs much earlier than this. My theory is that, as adults, we remember much of what it was like to be a fetus.
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Re: First memory

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:46 pm

quetzalcoatl wrote:I can remember laying in my pram as a baby [6-ish months I assume] and my mother was hanging over the pram talking to me. I distinctly remember understanding her but that I couldn’t speak myself which frustrated me. Perhaps I added some stuff onto that memory but I remember it as a single memory [even though naturally its plural]. Next to that I remember my mum catching me eating coal in the coal shed at the age of about 1 ½ I think.

Is that even possible - six months? Perhaps your mother told you about that incident and your mind added to the script at some later date. We do this you know.

But 1 1/2 years old? That's possible I think. Do you remember the taste of the coal and how it felt in your hands and your mouth? Do you remember how you felt when your mother took you out of there? Did you ever sneak back in? Perhaps that was your very first attempt to enter your 'cave'. I mean, there might, in actuality, be something there. :P
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Jan 30, 2012 4:18 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
quetzalcoatl wrote:I can remember laying in my pram as a baby [6-ish months I assume] and my mother was hanging over the pram talking to me. I distinctly remember understanding her but that I couldn’t speak myself which frustrated me. Perhaps I added some stuff onto that memory but I remember it as a single memory [even though naturally its plural]. Next to that I remember my mum catching me eating coal in the coal shed at the age of about 1 ½ I think.

Is that even possible - six months? Perhaps your mother told you about that incident and your mind added to the script at some later date. We do this you know.

But 1 1/2 years old? That's possible I think. Do you remember the taste of the coal and how it felt in your hands and your mouth? Do you remember how you felt when your mother took you out of there? Did you ever sneak back in? Perhaps that was your very first attempt to enter your 'cave'. I mean, there might, in actuality, be something there. :P

Although later suggestions from parents or other adults may, to some extent, modify memory, current research shows that what Q wrote is certainly possible. The best case anti-abortionists can offer is fetal memory or the possibility that a fertilized egg already contains certain properties of both parents. The problem then becomes who are the parents? Was the child concieved through incest or rape? Is it an eugenic idea to abort? But this is off track of the main thread. I can't remember anything beyond my fifth year. I do not doubt that others can.
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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 11:34 am

Early memories in the womb are great but, Istill do not see that it makes that fetus sentient or human until mid2cnd trimester when it is fully formed. I would say that even animals have fetal memories and are perhaps more intune to them than we could ever be.
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:56 pm

I would suggest that, since there are no gaps, only stages of process, in biochemistry producing minds, everyone's earliest "Memories" are pre-natal.
Lady K., what goes on with the fetus in the mid, 2nd trimester? I'm ignorant of such things; but I can't consider a fetal brain as capable of thinking, even though the self-other interactions are already present in the womb. I could be wrong. So what do you mean by sentience at the stage of development to which you refer?
I agree about animals.
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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:08 pm

Up to the midpart of the second trimester the body and brain are still forming, the body is incomplete there can be no humanity with an incomplete body and brain. Can a brain that is not fully formed be sentient? I say no. I realize that some are going to get rabid about this but it is a valid question and subject.
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: First memory

Postby anon » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:14 pm

Kriswest wrote:Up to the midpart of the second trimester the body and brain are still forming, the body is incomplete there can be no humanity with an incomplete body and brain. Can a brain that is not fully formed be sentient? I say no. I realize that some are going to get rabid about this but it is a valid question and subject.

There's no such thing as a complete body and brain. We are what we are, in each moment. All you're saying here is that a fetus isn't a child. Well a child isn't an adult, either.
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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:42 pm

:lol: :lol: And out of the chute to grab the first pick,,, anon!!! ROTFLMFAO. Anon you know what I mean, don't pick nits on it. There is forming then there is growing, you know this. I did not say grow I said formed. and that means it is still getting put together in one viable item. Unless you are stating that a two day old fetus already has fully formed hands? :D :D
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: First memory

Postby anon » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:10 pm

Kriswest wrote::lol: :lol: And out of the chute to grab the first pick,,, anon!!! ROTFLMFAO. Anon you know what I mean, don't pick nits on it. There is forming then there is growing, you know this. I did not say grow I said formed. and that means it is still getting put together in one viable item. Unless you are stating that a two day old fetus already has fully formed hands? :D :D

I'm glad I amuse you. :lol:

I guess I'm just never happy with people trying to pin down what is or isn't life, sentient, human, etc. Anti-abortionists say one thing, pro-choicers say another thing... But everyone is always trying to turn difficult choices into easy ones. But I think some kinds of choices should always remain difficult ones. Otherwise, we become less human, in a sense.
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"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:19 pm

I fully agree that some choices should always be difficult. Especially this one. Once it becomes mandated either way then a child becomes a commodity. i fear the day we lose choice. I cannot ever say that someone who believes life begins at conception is totally wrong, I cannot condemn that. I do expect the same respect. but, it seems those that are in charge are leaning towards making women walking incubators wether that woman want to be one or not. it, to me, is a form of slavery to force a woman to carry.
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: First memory

Postby anon » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:31 pm

Kriswest wrote:I fully agree that some choices should always be difficult. Especially this one. Once it becomes mandated either way then a child becomes a commodity. i fear the day we lose choice. I cannot ever say that someone who believes life begins at conception is totally wrong, I cannot condemn that. I do expect the same respect. but, it seems those that are in charge are leaning towards making women walking incubators wether that woman want to be one or not. it, to me, is a form of slavery to force a woman to carry.

I'm glad we generally agree. You worried me for a second. :wink:
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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:36 pm

:lol: I just cannot see a fetus as human until it actually begins to grow after being formed... I think that is where we may disagree. when does a seed become a tree? When does a seed become a seed?
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: First memory

Postby Calrid » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:38 pm

Kriswest wrote::lol: I just cannot see a fetus as human until it actually begins to grow after being formed... I think that is where we may disagree. when does a seed become a tree? When does a seed become a seed?


I don't consider anyone to be human until they can buy me a pint legally or otherwise. Probably just me though. :D
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Re: First memory

Postby anon » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:50 pm

Kriswest wrote::lol: I just cannot see a fetus as human until it actually begins to grow after being formed... I think that is where we may disagree. when does a seed become a tree? When does a seed become a seed?

What is "human" just depends on the definition we assign the word. That's not so much the issue for me. The issue to me is that a fetus (I think) experiences his or her world, feels pain, etc. And even if that isn't true, our relationship to the unborn is indicative of our attitude towards all life. I think abortion is sometimes the best choice in a given situation, but the thought of aborting a fetus as freely and easily as we throw away food scraps... well, that just doesn't sit well with me. And now with the growing fertility industry, isn't that the inevitable outcome? Oops, quintuplets on the way! No problem though...

I don't have an answer, policy-wise, by the way. This is just my basic attitude.
"Distraction is the only thing that consoles us for our miseries, and yet it is itself the greatest of our miseries." - Blaise Pascal

"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

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Re: First memory

Postby Kriswest » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:11 pm

anon, I agree but, I also see the flipside of not being able to freely abort. Because I believe in quality of life over quantity , I would rather that fetus be aborted than suffer abuse, neglect, drug addictions etc. The socialservices for unwanted children is overwhelmed now. Imagine if you would dumping so many more on an over worked system. What happens to those children? What kind of life will they have, how many will fall through the cracks and become something that is abberant? The system will have to accept foster parents with less background checks and no experience.. that scares the crap out of me. Accepting life just because its human can cause untold issues in overpopulation, health risks, mental and physical, it has the potential do be incredibly damaging to humanity as a whole. If abortion becomes illegal its just the first step down a really frightening slippery slope.
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I will be bitchy, cranky, sweet, happy, kind, pain in the ass all at random times from now on. I am embracing my mentalpause until further notice. Viva lack of total control!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is not a test,,, this is my life right now. Have a good day and please buckle up for safety reasons,, All those in high chairs, go in the back of the room.
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Re: First memory

Postby anon » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:10 pm

Kriswest wrote:anon, I agree but...

Not sure where the "but" comes in, because I agree with you.
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"The bombs we plant in each other are ticking away." - Edward Yang

"To a fly that likes the smell of putrid / Meat the fragrance of sandalwood is foul. / Beings who discard Nirvana / Covet coarse Samsara's realm." - Saraha
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Re: First memory

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Feb 01, 2012 4:22 pm

Kriswest wrote:anon, I agree but, I also see the flipside of not being able to freely abort. Because I believe in quality of life over quantity , I would rather that fetus be aborted than suffer abuse, neglect, drug addictions etc. The socialservices for unwanted children is overwhelmed now. Imagine if you would dumping so many more on an over worked system. What happens to those children? What kind of life will they have, how many will fall through the cracks and become something that is abberant? The system will have to accept foster parents with less background checks and no experience.. that scares the crap out of me. Accepting life just because its human can cause untold issues in overpopulation, health risks, mental and physical, it has the potential do be incredibly damaging to humanity as a whole. If abortion becomes illegal its just the first step down a really frightening slippery slope.

If the fundies get their way, Roe vs. Wade will be undone after the coming election. Not being a woman, I feel I have no right to say what a woman should do with her own body. Back to back alleys and coat hangers? The rich will just go to countries where abortions are allowed. The Chinese now have laws regarding how many children a woman should bear. Some Catholics consider any form of birth control other than coitus interruptus to be abortion. The slippery slope you mention could have to do with practical issues such as population control on one side and abortion as a form of unwarranted birth control on the other.
Back to the OP, sound memories occur in a fetus at 30 weeks, touch occurs earlier. So what is the first possible memory?
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