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Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:17 pm
by turtle
Arcturus Descending wrote:obe,

Because, symptoms are being treated. It's long past, when the causes were still optimistically treated, and reasons could be found for the symptoms. The word 'analyst', nowadays is more likely to be associated with a business, or a technical problem then with the psyche. The deconstruction of the psyche has replaced the ability to understand it or cure it. Technicians are more likely to approach this understanding, with devices, drugs then trying to evaluate who is responsible for what went wrong, the patient or society. Current view in this is inconclusive , divided, or inconsequential.

I don't think it's such an easy thing to evaluate who is responsible for what went wrong -- laying blame -- I suppose that there is enough to go around for many in the field, and besides, doesn't that kind of remove the focus from what is the most important thing - the best treatment for the particular person - drugs or a combination of drugs and therapy or just plain therapy. It's not so easy is it?


I think that you need to know what CAUSES the different mental health problems in order to PREVENT these problems...
if you just treat symptoms you never can get down to cure....it isn't a matter of blame but identifying factors of causation...example would be sexual abuse of young persons causes problems later....if you just say the child imagined it..
well that just doesn't work anymore...

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 5:35 pm
by Arcturus Descending
I think that you need to know what CAUSES the different mental health problems in order to PREVENT these problems...
if you just treat symptoms you never can get down to cure....it isn't a matter of blame but identifying factors of causation...example would be sexual abuse of young persons causes problems later....if you just say the child imagined it..
well that just doesn't work anymore...


I agree with you here. You can't treat the person without also knowing his/her history too.
Unfortunately, they cannot be PREVENTED after the fact but hopefully they can be treated.

I think it's also important for those in the medical and scienctfic field, to study and to learn, in order to understand what effects certain maltreatment, for lack of a better word, has on the human brain and spirit. The human spirit is important since at least for me it is a great part of the driving force which gives rise to an essential meaninful life.

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 6:16 pm
by turtle
Arcturus Descending wrote:
I think that you need to know what CAUSES the different mental health problems in order to PREVENT these problems...
if you just treat symptoms you never can get down to cure....it isn't a matter of blame but identifying factors of causation...example would be sexual abuse of young persons causes problems later....if you just say the child imagined it..
well that just doesn't work anymore...


I agree with you here. You can't treat the person without also knowing his/her history too.
Unfortunately, they cannot be PREVENTED after the fact but hopefully they can be treated.

I think it's also important for those in the medical and scienctfic field, to study and to learn, in order to understand what effects certain maltreatment, for lack of a better word, has on the human brain and spirit. The human spirit is important since at least for me it is a great part of the driving force which gives rise to an essential meaninful life.


yes....prevention can occur with others....especially when we share....I am not the least interested in blame...it is a waste of time....

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:16 pm
by turtle
von rivers is back ....he may be one of us

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:21 pm
by Arcturus Descending
turtle wrote:von rivers is back ....he may be one of us


Most definitely. I flow like a river as he does....

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:40 pm
by von Rivers
I'm definitely one of us.
Still thinking about what it's all about for us dummies...
Will let you all know when I think of something.

Onwards...

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:46 pm
by turtle
von Rivers wrote:I'm definitely one of us.
Still thinking about what it's all about for us dummies...
Will let you all know when I think of something.

Onwards...


it is good to see you back

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:33 pm
by Ierrellus
false start. carry on. Welcome back vR.

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:40 pm
by Ierrellus
What constitutes objective truth?

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:20 pm
by turtle
Ierrellus wrote:What constitutes objective truth?


there is no such thing....the closest thing is science finding something that works out according to theory..

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:22 pm
by Ierrellus
turtle wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:What constitutes objective truth?


there is no such thing....the closest thing is science finding something that works out according to theory..

Atlanta is a city in Georgia. Objective truth?

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:26 pm
by turtle
Ierrellus wrote:
turtle wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:What constitutes objective truth?


there is no such thing....the closest thing is science finding something that works out according to theory..

Atlanta is a city in Georgia. Objective truth?


ier I don't want to deal with that...how about science

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:56 pm
by Ierrellus
Water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:04 pm
by turtle
Ierrellus wrote:Water is composed of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom.


you are presenting information about the nature of water....it fits in with the atomic theory of matter...the info has been used in many ways....so far the info seems to be real....right now that is workable...
objective truth?????????????I don't know what that means....does that question have value....

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 2:33 am
by von Rivers
--Fellow dummies... this business about objective truth is complicated... As turtle says, it could mean different things...
Atlanta is most likely in Georgia... since I've driven through there... but boundary lines on a map are a social construction, based on law and human artifice...
Separtists in Atlanta... not that there are any... might think that Atlanta is really part of Kentucky... stranger things have happened...

On a related note, I have an ancient philosophical puzzle for us dummies...
...If a tree falls in a forest... and nobody at all is around... does anybody hear it?

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2014 10:54 am
by Lev Muishkin
Ierrellus wrote:
turtle wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:What constitutes objective truth?


there is no such thing....the closest thing is science finding something that works out according to theory..

Atlanta is a city in Georgia. Objective truth?


Not if you live in Southern Russia! :D

It is true that Altlanta is a city in Georgia, but saying so does not make it objective. Objective is a redundancy i this example.


Objective is an adjective that requires a reason to be used; normally when a selection of criteria are met with a metric against a set of opinions.

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:37 pm
by Arcturus Descending
[quote="von Rivers

...If a tree falls in a forest... and nobody at all is around... does anybody hear it?


Define nobody. Define anybody.
Do the birds and the squirrels and the deer, ad continuum count as "nobody's?

If a river flows HERE, does anything here it THERE? :-k

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:04 pm
by Ierrellus
"God hears it."--G. Berkeley

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:43 pm
by von Rivers
There was a young man who said, "God
Must find it exceedingly odd
To think that the tree
Should continue to be
When there's no one about in the quad."

Reply:
"Dear Sir: Your astonishment's odd;
I am always about in the quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be
Since observed by, Yours faithfully, God."

- Not sure who.

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:33 pm
by Arcturus Descending
von Rivers wrote:There was a young man who said, "God
Must find it exceedingly odd
To think that the tree
Should continue to be
When there's no one about in the quad."

Reply:
"Dear Sir: Your astonishment's odd;
I am always about in the quad.
And that's why the tree
Will continue to be
Since observed by, Yours faithfully, God."

- Not sure who.


That kind of brings us back to your question, VR.

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:27 am
by obdshawn
Miracles happen every day

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:32 am
by turtle
obdshawn wrote:Miracles happen every day


maybe there are no "miracles"....

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:22 pm
by turtle
us dummies are still here....but what philosophy issues are important now for discussion...

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:41 pm
by Lev Muishkin
turtle wrote:us dummies are still here....but what philosophy issues are important now for discussion...


There is no shortage of dummies here on ILP.
But there is precious little philosophy.

Re: Philosophy For Us Dummies

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:43 pm
by Lev Muishkin
obdshawn wrote:Miracles happen every day


No miracles ever happen.
A miracle is by definition an event which confounds the laws of nature, and thus by definition does not occur except in the imagination of the weak minded.

QED: my post about 'precious little philosophy"