Shook hands today with a rapist

[Gobbo]

Since it's ostensible the system is not the same for everyone, and every incident in history, ever, confirms that, how about you explain how it's the same for everyone.

[Gobbo]

No one here will catch up.

Not that I've seen, at least.

I can count the number of people who have ever been on this board that 'get it,' and it can be done on one hand.

Not even me? Come on buddy....

Remember my first post here ever? Way back in the day? I was defending Dick Cheney. Good times man.

No. Not you.

You think the system is the same for everyone. That, to me, indicates you're not just on the wrong track, but fucking insane.

[Gobbo]

"Oh, is there no mercy for the son of a widow?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron_scandal

[Smears]

Since it's ostensible the system is not the same for everyone, and every incident in history, ever, confirms that, how about you explain how it's the same for everyone.

The system is made of rules.

All people are created equal.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder.

Everyone has the same odds of getting lucky.

[Moreno]

The system is made of rules.

All people are created equal.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder.

I am not sure what is encompassed by 'do better' but how do you see the fact that the children of the wealthy are vastly more likely to succeed than the children of the poor, at least as far as education, profession and wealth. Is this because the poor tend to try less hard?

[Smears]

The system is made of rules.

All people are created equal.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder.

I am not sure what is encompassed by 'do better' but how do you see the fact that the children of the wealthy are vastly more likely to succeed than the children of the poor, at least as far as education, profession and wealth. Is this because the poor tend to try less hard?

Come on man, there are just as many rich kids who screw it us as there are poor kids who make it.

If you're saying the poor try just as hard, and that they're not getting as much done, you're basically saying that we're not all really equal, and that's like, racist or something.

[Gobbo]

Since it's ostensible the system is not the same for everyone, and every incident in history, ever, confirms that, how about you explain how it's the same for everyone.

The system is made of rules.

All people are created equal.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder.

Everyone has the same odds of getting lucky.

Wrong on so many levels I'm just going to state that it is and leave you to...drugs, or whatever it is you do.

[Smears]

I didn't think you'd have a proper argument. Thanks for validating by beliefs.

[Gobbo]

I don't need to give an argument when 3 of the things you said are, in the objective, wrong. Worse: they could never be right.

If you want to believe that all systems have rules, though, then go ahead. We can kind of give that one to you.

25% is a failure mark, though.

[Smears]

I don't need to give an argument when 3 of the things you said are, in the objective, wrong. Worse: they could never be right.

If you want to believe that all systems have rules, though, then go ahead. We can kind of give that one to you.

25% is a failure mark, though.

I see how you feel emotionally about things, but can you tell me why people don't get up off thier asses and take care of themselves? Why is there so much wealth-envy when anyone can go out and make money. You screw yourself over by following rules that you don't think are fair, so even then it's still no one's fault except the individual how they choose to live. (barring retards and people w/ no legs and shit of course).

[Gobbo]

Just stop.



The system is made of rules -- that is right, most of the time.

All people are created equal -- this fucking biblically wrong.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder. -- wrong. All you would have to do is think about it for like 3 seconds or longer.

Everyone has the same odds of getting lucky. -- Nonsensical bullshit.


Do you actually have an argument here regarding those 3 points? I don't care about anything else you have to say.

[Smears]

Just stop.



The system is made of rules -- that is right, most of the time.

All people are created equal -- this fucking biblically wrong.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder. -- wrong. All you would have to do is think about it for like 3 seconds or longer.

Everyone has the same odds of getting lucky. -- Nonsensical bullshit.


Do you actually have an argument here regarding those 3 points? I don't care about anything else you have to say.

The constitution says we're all created equal. So does the civil rights act in some roundabout way. If you disagree, then you're an unamerican racist, and since I know you're a black dude in canada, and canada is pretty much just leeching off america, I gotta say I'm finding you a bit inconsistent here.

I thought about it, and like I said, barring retards and cripples, anyone can get a job and save money, anyone can do it man. Unless you're retarded or crippled.

How does everyone not have the same odds of getting lucky? I'll bet there's a big game theoretical proof for that shit. Search google man I'm sure it's out there.

How can you be so dismissive of opposing views, on a philosophy forum? You're like a facist man. I thought you were a pot smoking cool guy but now I'm not so sure.

[Moreno]

The system is made of rules.

All people are created equal.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder.

I am not sure what is encompassed by 'do better' but how do you see the fact that the children of the wealthy are vastly more likely to succeed than the children of the poor, at least as far as education, profession and wealth. Is this because the poor tend to try less hard?

Come on man, there are just as many rich kids who screw it us as there are poor kids who make it.

If you're saying the poor try just as hard, and that they're not getting as much done, you're basically saying that we're not all really equal, and that's like, racist or something.

At best it would be classist. But since my position is that resources affect outcomes it is precisely the opposite of classist.

As far as how many poor kids make it...it is possible that as many poor kids make as rich kids who fuck up, but more rich kids end up not poor than poor kids.

It requires more effort for the poor person to achieve many of the same goals.

Companies know this, that's why they go for loans and investors.

[Smears]

Yeah man I get what you're saying. But that's drawing a line between parents and kids in a way that I don't think is really fair. Life isn't all about money and how much you can get. And either kid will probably be able to make enough money to survive.

You might say, that given the fact that either could survive if cut off from family money, that when the rich kids aren't, they're getting screwed out of learning survival skills, and because they know that, live lives of insecurity and fear whereas the poor kid gets the advantage, both practically and emotionally of having learned those hard facts about the world.

I think most of the people that Joker thinks are rich probably really aren't that rich, so even though they have bigger houses and cars, the've got bigger payments to make and when the cash flow stops they're just as screwed over a long enough period of time.

[Moreno]

Yeah man I get what you're saying. But that's drawing a line between parents and kids in a way that I don't think is really fair. Life isn't all about money and how much you can get. And either kid will probably be able to make enough money to survive.

yes, that's why I raised the issue of what 'doing better' meant, what the area was. I still think this holds on other areas also. I mean the kid who is sexually abused is going to have more trouble achieving certain social goals or will achieve them later or not at all than a kid who is not.

You might say, that given the fact that either could survive if cut off from family money, that when the rich kids aren't, they're getting screwed out of learning survival skills, and because they know that, live lives of insecurity and fear whereas the poor kid gets the advantage, both practically and emotionally of having learned those hard facts about the world.

Sure, if 2012 turns out to be what some are predicting, then I am with you - the poor will have some advantages - some disadvantages also. But generally, most people have experienced relatively stable societies, enough so that material wealth does affect their success.

I think most of the people that Joker thinks are rich probably really aren't that rich, so even though they have bigger houses and cars, the've got bigger payments to make and when the cash flow stops they're just as screwed over a long enough period of time.

That wouldn't really hold for, say, 20 years ago. Those people did have advantages over those without cars and houses and it lasted. A depression hits the middle class hard and makes many of them poor and they are not used to it. On the other hand it throws a lot of the poor out on the streets.

[Smears]

It's like the non-producing people in American are demanding a free ride on a better quality of living than like the vast majority of the rest of the world. They don't know how good they have it to be getting those welfare checks. They don't want a safety net so that when shit happens they can get by, they want to live amazingly and have it all, and not have to do anything for it. It's disgusting.

[tentative]

The problem for those on the bottom rung of the economic ladder is that they give up trying. They see that the game is fixed and they usually haven't enough education to find any alternatives. They aren't coerced slaves, they put the chains on themselves.

[Smears]

The problem for those on the bottom rung of the economic ladder is that they give up trying. They see that the game is fixed and they usually haven't enough education to find any alternatives. They aren't coerced slaves, they put the chains on themselves.

I feel like we're agreeing on more and more things here lately sir. I grew up in a shitty neighborhood in a tiny house with too many people in it where there was competition for food.

Now I'm educated, fat and have been all over the place partying and having a great time, and I get to live a fairly care free life because I am enterprising, kind of hard working, and maybe a little lucky too. Anyone can do it man.

[Gobbo]

Just stop.



The system is made of rules -- that is right, most of the time.

All people are created equal -- this fucking biblically wrong.

If some people do better than others, it's because they tried harder. -- wrong. All you would have to do is think about it for like 3 seconds or longer.

Everyone has the same odds of getting lucky. -- Nonsensical bullshit.


Do you actually have an argument here regarding those 3 points? I don't care about anything else you have to say.

The constitution says we're all created equal. So does the civil rights act in some roundabout way. If you disagree, then you're an unamerican racist, and since I know you're a black dude in canada, and canada is pretty much just leeching off america, I gotta say I'm finding you a bit inconsistent here.

I thought about it, and like I said, barring retards and cripples, anyone can get a job and save money, anyone can do it man. Unless you're retarded or crippled.

How does everyone not have the same odds of getting lucky? I'll bet there's a big game theoretical proof for that shit. Search google man I'm sure it's out there.

How can you be so dismissive of opposing views, on a philosophy forum? You're like a facist man. I thought you were a pot smoking cool guy but now I'm not so sure.

1. Who gives a shit what the constitution says? It's ostensible all people are not created equal. Just like the world wasn't created in 7 days. That you're bringing up some sentence written somewhere instead of employing logic leads me to believe you're either retarded, or trolling.

2. So anyone can get a job. That doesn't prove your point in any way, which was that if someone excels, it's because they tried harder. That is, again, ostensibly false. One could disprove that by throwing a spoon at the wall and watching it fall down, or simply inhaling deeply. It's false. Just typing it proves it so.

3. As I said, compete horseshit nonsense.


If you're not trolling I genuinely am kind of shocked. This is not just a bad argument, it's... childish and weird.

[Smears]

Americans care about the constitution.

You can't just keep saying that people aren't equal. Or that it's ostensible. That's just an expression of your opinion dude. I'm coming at you with facts right now.

You're saying that I"m not putting up any argument, but your whole argument is, "that's ostensibly false and it's ostensible too".

Only a troll would divert from his own lack of logic by calling reasonable statements horseshit.

[Gobbo]

Americans care about the constitution.

Christians care about the bible.

Or that it's ostensible.

Yes, I can. Because the world wasn't created in 7 days.

You're saying that I"m not putting up any argument, but your whole argument is, "that's ostensibly false and it's ostensible too".

I don't need to make arguments for things that are stupid. Do you go to churches and argue with fundies? Or, if you do, do you do it any differently than I am talking to you?

You're either trying to (badly) troll me, or you've literally done too many drugs, or you were never good at philosophy in the first place. Please pick one so we can bring this nightmare you're trying to call a debate to a halt.

[Smears]

You are the dude that used to be oldgobbo right?

[Gobbo]

Before this I was Impenetent.

[Smears]

Didn't you used to live in australia?

And how can you be mad at money grubbers and druggies with that avatar?

[Gobbo]

Dude. I work hard. I have a job. I'm smart, and successful at what I do.

But that doesn't stop me from coming home at the end of the day and thinking, 'Hmm,

1. Everyone is not equal.
2. Some people get ahead because they're born into it.
3. Everyone having the same odds as 'getting lucky' requires you to first define luck, which is problematic and probably not worth pursuing in any meaningful fashion.

Then I sometimes go on to think things like 'Hmm, the system we live in seems to be run by some of the most satanic people on the planet, and with a few adjustments to the world banking oligarch hell-bent on making our lives serve like 2000 actual people, we could live in a relative utopia where basically the lives of everyone are more or less equal. At the least, way more than now.