Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only)

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Star Wars 4, 5 and 6 or Matrix 1?

The Matrix
3
50%
Star Wars
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Total votes : 6

Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only)

Postby FilmSnob » Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:32 am

So?

I have a feeling that it might just come down to which generation you are.

For me, The Matrix!

"My name... Is Neo!"
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Duality » Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:54 am

same concept really, different generations.

messianic films. if you observe closely you will see as their predecessors Lawrence of Arabia, and Ben-Hur.
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Trevor » Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:45 pm

Matrix was the one that impressed me most on the first watch, but if I were to sit and watch any of them now it'd be the Star Wars films.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:32 pm

Duality wrote:Lawrence of Arabia


Damn son, what a movie. That and Bridg Over the River Kwai are the two military masterpieces of their time. Or wait, what year was Patton made in?
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Wed Nov 30, 2011 4:36 pm

Duality wrote:same concept really, different generations.

messianic films.


Don't be confused. The messianic is just a conduit for the real substance of the movies.

I will take a minute here for some unforgivable sacrilege on many levels: Star Wars's book is the Bible.

The Matrix's is Simulacra and Simulation
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Duality » Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:51 pm

Pezer wrote:
Duality wrote:same concept really, different generations.

messianic films.


Don't be confused. The messianic is just a conduit for the real substance of the movies.

I disagree. I think its one of the main reasons they are epic, culturally defining films.

apparently George Lucas was influenced by the works of Joseph Campbell, who in turn was influenced by Carl Jung and Mircea Eliade, the three gnostics of the modern era
George Lucas was the first Hollywood filmmaker to credit Campbell's influence. Lucas stated following the release of the first Star Wars film in 1977 that its story was shaped, in part, by ideas described in The Hero with a Thousand Faces and other works of Campbell's. The linkage between Star Wars and Campbell was further reinforced when later reprints of Campbell's book used the image of Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker on the cover.[36] Lucas discusses this influence at great length in the authorized biography of Joseph Campbell, A Fire in the Mind:

I [Lucas] came to the conclusion after American Graffiti that what's valuable for me is to set standards, not to show people the world the way it is...around the period of this realization...it came to me that there really was no modern use of mythology...The Western was possibly the last generically American fairy tale, telling us about our values. And once the Western disappeared, nothing has ever taken its place. In literature we were going off into science fiction...so that's when I started doing more strenuous research on fairy tales, folklore, and mythology, and I started reading Joe's books. Before that I hadn't read any of Joe's books...It was very eerie because in reading The Hero with a Thousand Faces I began to realize that my first draft of Star Wars was following classic motifs...so I modified my next draft [of Star Wars] according to what I'd been learning about classical motifs and made it a little bit more consistent...I went on to read 'The Masks of God' and many other books.[37]
It was not until after the completion of the original Star Wars trilogy in 1983, however, that Lucas met Campbell or heard any of his lectures.[38] The 1988 documentary The Power of Myth was filmed at Lucas' Skywalker Ranch. During his interviews with Bill Moyers, Campbell discusses the way in which Lucas used The Hero's Journey in the Star Wars films (IV, V, and VI) to re-invent the mythology for the contemporary viewer. Moyers and Lucas filmed an interview 12 years later in 1999 called the Mythology of Star Wars with George Lucas & Bill Moyers to further discuss the impact of Campbell's work on Lucas' films.[39] In addition, the National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian Institution sponsored an exhibit during the late 1990s called Star Wars: The Magic of Myth, which discussed the ways in which Campbell's work shaped the Star Wars films.[40] A companion guide of the same name was published in 1997.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell#Film
"A truth is not necessary, because we negatively are not able to conceive the actual existence of the opposite thereof;but a truth is necessary when we positively are able to apprehend that the negation thereof includes an inevitable contradiction. It is not that that we can see how the opposite comes to be true, but it is that the opposite can not possibly be true." -R.L. Dabney

"Those then who know not wisdom and virtue, and are always busy with gluttony and sensuality, go down and up again as far as the mean; and in this region they move at random throughout life, but they never pass into the true upper world; thither they neither look, nor do they ever find their way, neither are they truly filled with true being, nor do they ever taste of pure and abiding pleasure." -Socrates
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:45 am

Duality wrote:
Pezer wrote:
Duality wrote:same concept really, different generations.

messianic films.


Don't be confused. The messianic is just a conduit for the real substance of the movies.

I disagree. I think its one of the main reasons they are epic, culturally defining films.

apparently George Lucas was influenced by the works of Joseph Campbell, who in turn was influenced by Carl Jung and Mircea Eliade, the three gnostics of the modern era
George Lucas was the first Hollywood filmmaker to credit Campbell's influence. Lucas stated following the release of the first Star Wars film in 1977 that its story was shaped, in part, by ideas described in The Hero with a Thousand Faces and other works of Campbell's. The linkage between Star Wars and Campbell was further reinforced when later reprints of Campbell's book used the image of Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker on the cover.[36] Lucas discusses this influence at great length in the authorized biography of Joseph Campbell, A Fire in the Mind:

I [Lucas] came to the conclusion after American Graffiti that what's valuable for me is to set standards, not to show people the world the way it is...around the period of this realization...it came to me that there really was no modern use of mythology...The Western was possibly the last generically American fairy tale, telling us about our values. And once the Western disappeared, nothing has ever taken its place. In literature we were going off into science fiction...so that's when I started doing more strenuous research on fairy tales, folklore, and mythology, and I started reading Joe's books. Before that I hadn't read any of Joe's books...It was very eerie because in reading The Hero with a Thousand Faces I began to realize that my first draft of Star Wars was following classic motifs...so I modified my next draft [of Star Wars] according to what I'd been learning about classical motifs and made it a little bit more consistent...I went on to read 'The Masks of God' and many other books.[37]
It was not until after the completion of the original Star Wars trilogy in 1983, however, that Lucas met Campbell or heard any of his lectures.[38] The 1988 documentary The Power of Myth was filmed at Lucas' Skywalker Ranch. During his interviews with Bill Moyers, Campbell discusses the way in which Lucas used The Hero's Journey in the Star Wars films (IV, V, and VI) to re-invent the mythology for the contemporary viewer. Moyers and Lucas filmed an interview 12 years later in 1999 called the Mythology of Star Wars with George Lucas & Bill Moyers to further discuss the impact of Campbell's work on Lucas' films.[39] In addition, the National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian Institution sponsored an exhibit during the late 1990s called Star Wars: The Magic of Myth, which discussed the ways in which Campbell's work shaped the Star Wars films.[40] A companion guide of the same name was published in 1997.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell#Film


he was influenced by many people. He was also influenced heavily by Akira Kurosawa, whose work included nothing of mesiahnism. only battle, honor, and subtler themes of the human experience.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby volchok » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:50 pm

Regardless of what generation you're from, when it comes to philosophical themes, the matrix is immeasurably better then the star war films.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:36 pm

volchok wrote:Regardless of what generation you're from, when it comes to philosophical themes, the matrix is immeasurably better then the star war films.


I'm polling more for the emotional and spiritual significance it has for you than for the amount and quality of philosophical themes.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Flannel Jesus » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:47 pm

volchok wrote:Regardless of what generation you're from, when it comes to philosophical themes, the matrix is immeasurably better then the star war films.

I was thinking this too. Apples and Oranges. Not anything close to "Same concept really" as Duality said.

But, when it comes to philosophical themes, I don't think I've yet come across a movie that comes even close to the quality of 2001
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Calrid » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:09 pm

volchok wrote:Regardless of what generation you're from, when it comes to philosophical themes, the matrix is immeasurably better then the star war films.


True but then Star Wars never set out to be philosophical, it's pure fantasy in a galaxy far far away-- escapism. The Matrix's philosophy wasn't that deep, let's face it, superficial at best I think. I think the question is flawed because both films set out to be very different things, so judging them with regard to each other is impossible. You might as well judge Lord of the Rings against Fight Club for all the similarities they exhibit.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Stoic Guardian » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:08 am

Star wars is only escapism for those who like Star Wars and are escapists(i.e. losers).

A lot of the Star Wars literature is very good though, very deep.

Especially with Boba Fett.
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”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:12 am

Listen, I'm not equating these movies on the grounds of philosophical themes or messages. Indeed, as FJ says, I would be posting about movies like 2001 or eXistenz if that were the case. I am equating themm on grounds that Dualism hinted at; namely, that they are both generation defining movies that revolved around a Hero's journey.

Don't tell me which one you think is better quality, tell me which one got to you more.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:13 am

Or, rather, which one means more to you.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Calrid » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:00 am

Stoic Guardian wrote:Star wars is only escapism for those who like Star Wars and are escapists(i.e. losers).

A lot of the Star Wars literature is very good though, very deep.

Especially with Boba Fett.


Why are escapists losers? It's not like they don't wake up put on their shoes and go to work like everyone else. Some people like to relax with a fantasy some don't, It hardly makes them a loser if they do. Not everything has to have some deep and intrinsic meaning, people might like both the depth and the fantasy...

I likes me fantasy and I likes me depth. Don't judge me on it because I like a breadth of things. :)
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

Oscar Wilde - probably.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Stoic Guardian » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:28 am

There's a differance between enjoying something and using it as an "escape".

I play a lot of RPG's but that doesn't mean i'm using it as an escape.
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Calrid » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:32 am

Stoic Guardian wrote:There's a differance between enjoying something and using it as an "escape".

I play a lot of RPG's but that doesn't mean i'm using it as an escape.


So what are you using it for? Be honest it's something you do to get you away from the real world and something you can enjoy thus.
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

Oscar Wilde - probably.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Stoic Guardian » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:01 am

I am Honest, my life isn't so miserable that I wish to escape from it.

I simply enjoy a good story, I like to encounter certain settings and ideas, recurring themes and all that.

In order to increase my own understanding, in fact my view of life is that of a story; so with that I see it as a way to be entertained and also learn at the same time.
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:12 am

Stoic Guardian wrote:I am Honest, my life isn't so miserable that I wish to escape from it.

I simply enjoy a good story, I like to encounter certain settings and ideas, recurring themes and all that.

In order to increase my own understanding, in fact my view of life is that of a story; so with that I see it as a way to be entertained and also learn at the same time.


Ever play Rome: Total War?
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Trajicomic » Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:18 am

You forgot Lord of the Rings.
Nothing is more Evil than becoming Man.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Stoic Guardian » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:15 pm

Pezer wrote:
Stoic Guardian wrote:I am Honest, my life isn't so miserable that I wish to escape from it.

I simply enjoy a good story, I like to encounter certain settings and ideas, recurring themes and all that.

In order to increase my own understanding, in fact my view of life is that of a story; so with that I see it as a way to be entertained and also learn at the same time.


Ever play Rome: Total War?


Yes
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Calrid » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:31 pm

Stoic Guardian wrote:I am Honest, my life isn't so miserable that I wish to escape from it.

I simply enjoy a good story, I like to encounter certain settings and ideas, recurring themes and all that.

In order to increase my own understanding, in fact my view of life is that of a story; so with that I see it as a way to be entertained and also learn at the same time.


I don't know where you got the idea that escapism has to mean you hate your life, escapism can just be a diversion from the mundane. But hey whatever.
“I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.”

Oscar Wilde - probably.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Stoic Guardian » Fri Dec 02, 2011 8:35 pm

I suppose I don't consider them diversions.
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby FilmSnob » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:17 am

Whenever I play Rome, I temporarily become a hardcore imperialist.
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Re: Matrix (first movie only) or Star Wars (vols. 4,5,6 only

Postby Stoic Guardian » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:23 am

When I enslave a part of the populace I pretend people are simply migrating to another part of the Empire.

And when I exterminate a populace (because oddly it makes them happier, something they fixed in the later games)

I pretend it didn't happen.
Last edited by Stoic Guardian on Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Fascism combats, and must combat, without respite or pity, not intelligence, but intellectualism—which is, as I have indicated, a sickness of the intellect" - Giovanni Gentile

”After visiting these places, you can easily understand how that within a few years Hitler will emerge from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most significant figures who ever lived. He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a menace to the peace of the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he lived and in the manner of his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the stuff of which legends are made.”- John F. Kennedy
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