## philosophy in film

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### Re: philosophy in film

In large part, my own marriage crumbled when my ex-wife became involved politically with women in Baltimore who had created the magazine Women: A journal of Liberation. Most of them were either separatists or lesbians. Many were both. And, sure enough, my ex-wife came to embrace both frames of mind as well.

I bring that up because to the best of my recollection none of these women were transgender. I don't even recall the subject coming up among them. Of late however the "transgender issue" seems to be just about everywhere. Men becoming women, women becoming men. And not just "psychologically". Now with surgery one can literally become the gender of their choice. The gender that brings into alignment mind and matter. The gender such that how you have come to think of yourself and the body come into sync.

But: There had to be those who were first to do this. Those who "pioneered" this sort of radical transformation. And in a day and age when, politically, there was not exactly a lot of support "in society" to be found.

Still, imagine this all unfolding in America in 1926. Instead of in Denmark. And yet even there and then there were those who wanted to lock him up for "perversion".

On the other hand, his wife not only tolerated it, she seemed to encourage it. Or did she? What was real and what was not? Which prompts you to wonder why: and both in terms of love and lust. There are those who become the opposite sex in order to engage the opposite sex...and those in order to engage the same sex. Or to engage both. And one suspects there might be a visceral antagonism towards them precisely because the lines between gender become...blurred.

Also, gay or straight, transgendered or not, we all eventually succumb to the fact that being "human all too human" is something that envelops us from the cradle to the grave. No one is ever immune to all the trials and tribulations that this entails.

And then of course there is always the question of the extent to which this is rooted more in nature or in nurture. Or in what particular combination of both. Though I don't count myself among those who imagine something like this can [or ever will] actually be known.

IMDb

Einar Wegener/Lili Elbe wasn't the first transgender person nor the first to undergo sex reassignment surgery, she was only among the first. Carla van Crist, Toni Ebel and Dörchen Ritcher had already had the surgery before Lili arrived in Berlin. There was an Institute for Sexual Research in Berlin, founded by Magnus Hirschfeld in 1919, that was like the Kinsey institute, and they were doing the operations, but the Nazis destroyed the files in 1933, so it's not possible to know for sure who's the first person who did the surgery. Lili's operations were made by Kurt Warnekros in Dresden, her first surgery was made under Hirschfeld's supervision in Berlin.

The true origin of Gerda Wegener (Gerda Gottlieb Wegener Porta (15 March 1886 - 28 July 1940)) (not to be confused with German makeup artist Gerda Wegener) is Danish, not American. David Ebershoff, the author of the novel in which the movie is based on, changed her name to Greta Waud and her origin to American and California-born to please the American readers. Both the novel and the film omitted that Gerda was lesbian or at least bisexual and had an open relationship with Einar/Lili that allowed her to live as a lesbian - the accounts suggest that they were more like sisters than spouses or lovers (Gerda lived openly as a lesbian in Paris in 1912). But in the film, she is portrayed as a straight, faithful and suffering wife who never left her husband. Gerda Wegener's famous Lesbian Erotica paintings are never mentioned in the film.

Einar and Gerda's marriage officially lasted 26 years (1904-1930), they got married at 22 and 18 years old, respectively. Lili was 47 years old when she got the sex reassignment surgery and died at 48, due to organ rejection after a uterus transplant. Eddie Redmayne was 33 when he shot the film, while Alicia Vikander was 26. The film only mentions that Einar and Gerda had been married for 6 years. Gerda Wegener was 44 during the events portrayed in the film and died at the age of 54, due to a heart attack.

Lili consulted two physicians, both whom diagnosed her as homosexual, a third physician diagnosed her as intersexed and claimed she had rudimentary female sex organs. Hormonal assays taken just before her first surgery indicated more female than male hormones present. It is likely that she had XXY sex chromosome karyotype (Klinefelter's Syndrome) a condition not medically recognized until 1942. The fact that Lili was Intersex is not mentioned in the film.

The only trans actors in the film have small parts. Trans actress Rebecca Root plays one of Lili's nurses, and Jake Graf, a transgender man, also plays a small part appearing next to Matthias Schoenaerts at the art gallery during the exhibition of Gerda's portraits. Jake Graf revealed on his Instagram account on January 5, 2016, that the rest of his scenes with Schoenaerts were consigned to the cutting room floor.

The film has been criticized for the casting of a cisgender man to play a trans woman; for being written similarly to forced feminization erotica; obscuring the actual story of a trans person; for being based on a fictional book that doesn't tell the true story of Einar/Lili and Gerda Wegener, and also for being sold as a biopic of a transgender woman when in fact, the film revolves around a cisgender straight female. Even with so many inaccuracies and so little of the real story of Lili and Gerda, the film is still being marketed as a "true story" of "unconditional love".

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Danish_Girl_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/d88APYIGkjk

THE DANISH GIRL [2015]
Directed by Tom Hooper

Man [being painted by Gerda]: I appreciate our being alone today. I hope your husband doesn't mind.
Gerda: Not at all. I could see his being here made you uncomfortable.
Man: It wasn't personal.
Gerda: It's not uncommon. It's hard for a man to be looked at by a woman. Women are used to it, of course, but for a man to, um, submit to a woman's gaze. It's unsettling. Although I believe there's some pleasure to be had from it, once you, um, yield.

...

Gerda: Could you help me with something?
Einar: Anything.
Gerda: Ulla has an extra rehearsal. She canceled again. Would you try on her stockings and shoes? I'm just so behind, I don't know how I'll be finished in time for her opening.
Einar: Yeah, I'll...I'll do it. It's fine, I'll do it.

...

Gerda: No, I need the dress.
Einar: No.
Gerda: I need to see how the hem falls.
Einar: No, Gerda, I'm not putting it on.
Gerda [drapping the dress over him instead]: Well, I haven't asked you to.

And that's all it took. He is sitting there in the stockings, with the dress wrapped all around him; and you see the transformation in his face: he likes it. Great acting.

Ulla [who comes into the room]: Well, hello, there!
[she walks over to Einar]
Ulla: Oh, don't worry, my darling. We're going to call you...Lili.

...

Einar [of Gerda's nightgown]: It's new.
Gerda: That's very observant.
Einar: Oh, no, leave it on. It's pretty.
Gerda: I might let you borrow it.
Einar: I might enjoy that.
Gerda: Is there something you'd like to tell me?
Einar: Is there something you'd like to know?

...

Gerda: Don't make her a slut!
Einar: It's your fault. You excite her.

...

Gerda [to Einar on his public debut as Lili]: Are you sure about tonight?

...

Gerda: Ulla, let me introduce...
Ulla: Lili!

...

Gerda: Exactly what happened between you and Sandahl last night?
Einar: Nothing. It was nothing.
Gerda: Did he know it was you?
Einar: It wasn't as simple as that.
Gerda: I watched him kiss you, Einar, so could you please make an effort?
Einar: He may have known who I was, but I wasn't always me. There was a moment when I was just Lili, and I think that he could see that. Do you see?
Gerda: But Lili doesn't exist. We made her up.
Einar: I know.
Gerda: We were playing a game.
Einar: I know we were. But then...something changed.
Gerda [angrily]: This is absurd. We... We need to stop. You need to stop, Einar.
Einar: I am going to try.

...

Doctor [to Einar]: So, you saw Dr. Andersen after a bout of severe nosebleeds, which you have come to believe coincide with the stomach cramps, and on a monthly basis. Hmm. So. How long have you been married?
Einar: Six years.
Doctor: Children?
Einar: No.
Doctor: Is there regular copulation?
Einar: Yes. Perhaps less now than before...
Doctor: Than before you started to dress as a woman?
[Einar displays signs of embarassment]
Doctor: I'm a specialist, Mr. Wegener. You may be embarrassed. I am not. Tell me about Lili. Where does she come from?
Einar: Inside me.
Doctor: You know, the most likely explanation for all of this is a chemical imbalance.
Einar: Really?
Doctor: That would explain the pain, the confused state of masculinity and the infertility. Let's hope it is that, because that, at least, we can cure.

...

Einar: There's nothing wrong with me.
Gerda: That's not true.
Einar:Gerda, this can't be right.
Doctor: Radiation is a miracle, Mr. Wegener. It destroys the bad and saves the good.

...

Doctor [after the radiation "treatment"]: How are you feeling this morning?
Einar: You hurt Lili.

...

Doctor: I'm afraid your husband's aberrant thinking persists. Do you keep a lock on your wardrobe?
Gerda: Of course not.
Doctor: Mrs. Wegener, you're not encouraging this delusion? You do understand that your husband is insane?
Gerda: No. That's not true. We trusted you. We came to you for help.
[the doctor storms away disgusted]

...

Hans [to Gerda]: We were fooling in the kitchen. Einar was wearing his grandmother's apron... We were just little boys, you know, playing around? Anyway, Einar just looked so pretty and... I had to kiss him! So, yes, I kissed Einar.

...

Gerda: Hans. May I introduce Lili Wegener. Einar's cousin from home.

...

Hans: Can I take you to dinner? To celebrate? I think someone ought to.
Gerda: No. Thank you.
Hans: Gerda. Have I offended you?
Gerda: No.
Hans [taking her hand]: Gerda.
Gerda: I'm still Einar's wife.

...

Gerda: You should have come. A little sort of celebration. This is not how it goes. We do these things together.
Lili: That was you and Einar.
Gerda: Stop playing that stupid, stupid game.
Lili: Please, Gerda. Don't you think this is a game.
Gerda: You should have been there!
Lili: How could I? Look at me.
Gerda: Not everything is about you. I need to see Einar.
Gerda: I need my husband. Go get him.
Lili: I can't.
Gerda: I need to talk to my husband, and I need to hold my husband. I need him. Can't you just get him? Can't you at least try?
Lili: No. I'm sorry.

...

Lili: I don't think I can give you what you want. I don't know how long we can go on like this.
Gerda: No.

...

Ulla [to Gerda]: There's a doctor. He runs the Women's Clinic in Dresden. He's interested in men like Einar who are...confused. Men who are different.

...

Gerda: Did I do this to you?
Lili: What?
Gerda: Sometimes, I... I wonder... If it hadn't been for the paintings...
Lili: No. Gerda, no. You helped bring Lili to life, but she was always there. She was always waiting.
Gerda: Now she's making you ill.
Lili: I don't know what to do. The doctors can't help me.
Gerda: Do you want to try one more?

...

Lili: Professor Warnekros, the fact is I believe that I am a woman, inside.
Gerda: And I believe it too.
Lili: You probably think that I'm insane. Or that we both are.
Professor Warnekros: Well, there are people who think that I'm insane. But I think you're probably right. I've met another man like you. I pursued his case, against the wishes of my colleagues, of course. I told him I could operate to make him fully a woman. That was what he wanted.
Lili: Is that really possible?
Gerda: What happened to the man? Was the operation successful?
Professor Warnekros: On the morning of the first operation, he ran away. He was too frightened.
Lili: I wouldn't do that. I...
Professor Warnekros: Perhaps he was the smart one. The surgery has never been attempted before. Never.

...

Gerda: Professor Warnekros, what is the surgery?
Professor Warnekros: Two operations. The first, to remove the male parts entirely. The second, once you're strong enough again, to construct a vagina. An irreversible change and a high risk of failure. Infections. Complications.
Gerda: It's too dangerous.
Lili: It's my only hope.

...

...

Hans [to Einar/Lili]: I've only liked a handful of people in my life, and you've been two of them.
...

Henrik: So, what you're suggesting is that, uh, a doctor
intervened.
Lili: To correct a mistake in nature.
Henrik: He made you a woman.
Lili: No, God made me a woman. But the doctor... He... The doctor is curing me of the sickness that was my disguise.
Henrik: A real woman.

...

Lili: You know, sometimes I do wonder why you let me go through all this, if you thought that everything would be the same afterwards.
Gerda: I didn't. But I promised Einar that I would take care of you.
Lili: For goodness' sakes, Gerda, Einar is dead. We both have to accept that. You took care of me, but now I have to take care of myself. I have to have a life of my own. And you need to do the same.

...

Hans: How are you Lili?
Einar: I...am...entirely...myself.

...

Lili [to Gerda]: Last night I had the most beautiful dream. I dreamed that I was a baby in my mother's arms. And she looked down at me, and she called me Lili.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

Imagine it...

You're a woman falling in love with a woman who is really a man who thinks of himself as a woman.

Yet another exploration into gender, gender roles, gender assumptions.

Or, as one reviewer put it: "It's a fascinating study of gender identification and queer stigma, examining the insecurities about gender roles, projection and sexuality."

On the other hand: What does that actually mean?

This more than likely: That each of us as individuals will react to what we see on the screen based largely on our own personal experiences. Also, on the particular political prejudices that have been hammered into our heads by others living in one or another community.

Isn't that always the bottom line?

And then it will come down to whether or not you will attempt to argue that how you think and feel about these things is that which all rational men and women are obligated to think and to feel in turn. And then from what is deemed rational to what is deemed moral.

What's crucial here though is how a new experience in our life can propel us to change our minds. But that's the part that many resist. Why? Because it focuses the beam on the existential relationship between "I" and our value judgments. And once that is embraced we can rarely go back to thinking that right and wrong can actually be "reasoned" --- defined, deduced -- into existence.

Then there's the part where the man not only thinks of himself as a woman, but as a woman about as far removed from the way in which feminists want us to think of a woman as you can get. Invariably the transvestites in films like this are ultra "feminine". It's all [or almost all] about "looks" and make-up and fashion and shopping.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Girlfriend_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/NBEDx5cy2HI

THE NEW GIRLFRIEND [Une Nouvelle Amie] 2014
Written and directed by François Ozon

Claire [at Laura's funeral]: Laura was my best friend. My friend for life. The moment we met it was love at first sight. Because it was her and it was me. We were only seven, but we knew we'd be together forever.

...

Claire [at Laura's funeral]: And when we were children, we made a pact. I made you a promise. And that promise, Laura, I will keep. As long I live, I will watch over your daughter Lucie and her father David.

...

[Instead, it's David dressed in women's clothes and a blonde wig]
Claire: Sorry, I won't bother you.
David: No, Claire, don't go. Stay. Let me explain...

...

David [now dressed as a man]: First of all, Laura knew.
Claire: Seriously?

...

David: Before we married, I confessed to her that I sometimes dress as a woman. Just occasionally, for fun. For pleasure. She accepted it. The only thing she asked is that I not do it in public.
David: Claire, I have never left this house as a woman. No one has ever seen me. Except you today. By accident. When Laura and I were together I stopped feeling the need. Her presense, her femininity were enough. I loved her so much. When she died it started again.

...

David: Raising a child alone is too hard. I just thought that I could provide a maternal presence. Every child needs a mother.
Claire: And a father.
David: I'm doing both. It's temporary...to soften the blow of losing Laura while we adjust to her absense.
Claire [fiercely]: You're not doing this for Lucie. It's for your own pleasure. You're a pervert.
David [after a long pause]: You may be right.
[Claire bolts for the door]
David: Claire, please! Don't tell anyone, not even Gilles.
Claire: I don't know...
David: Laura's parents might try to take Lucie away. And I love her so much.

...

David: I'd like you to understand. The way Laura always did.
Claire: Stop bringing Laura into it.

But she soon comes around. Boy does she come around!

Gilles: I've always felt that David was a bit...
Claire: A bit what?
Gilles: There's something very...feminine about him.
Claire: Really?
Gilles: Yeah. I'm sure he loved Laura and she loved him. But I imagine men like him too.

...

Laura [after a fierce orgasm]: Did you come?
Gilles: No. But it's okay.

...

David: My first time out as a woman.
Claire: You might want to change your voice.

...

Claire [to David made up as Virginia]: Maybe you shouldn't hold my hand. That man's staring.
David: Don't worry. Women often hold hands.
Claire: Certain women.

...

Claire: Forget to shave?
[David as Virginia feels his chin]
Claire: Being a woman is hard work.

...

David [to Claire]: Would you rather have dinner with David or Virginia?

...

Claire: You're dreaming. This is just a game. You have to wake up to reality.
Virginia: You like this game too. We weren't close before. Virginia brought us closer.
Claire: No. Laura's death brought us closer.

...

Virginia [to Claire]: During dinner at your house I realized I was falling in love with you. You were right. It was better to end it. But at tennis when you said, "I miss Virginia", it all came rushing back. I missed her too.

...

Claire: I'm sorry, I can't do this.
David [as Virginia with an erection]: Why not?
Claire: You're a man!

...

Liz [David's mother after David had been struck by a car and was in the hospital]: You should know something first...David, for some reason, was found dressed as a woman.
Gilles: As a woman?
Mother: He was wearing a skirt and a wig.
Claire [feigning shock]: Really?!
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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iambiguous
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Posts: 36498
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Consider:

13-year-old Gunther Strobbe grows up surrounded by alcohol, trash and his completely useless father and uncles. Slowly but surely, he's being prepared for the same hapless life. Can he defy his destiny?

Dasein anyone?

And isn't that really what it is all about? We come into a particular world at particular time and in a particular place and are predisposed to acquire "a sense of self" that is crammed into our heads by all the folks around us. They choose who and what we are for us. Which is not to say that this is how we will always be. Only that there is just no getting around the fact that this is how we all start out.

And then when you start out embedded smack dab in the middle of the Strobbe brothers -- "born losers" -- there is only really one way to go: up.

Here the meaning of the expression "working class hellhole" takes on an entirely new [and even more bizarre] meaning.

In fact, class is written all over this one. It seems [at times] the more sophisticated among us are meant only to gawk at these "morons" as we might at the human monstrosities in a carnival freak show. Things just sort of "happen" to these folks. Not a whole lot of thought is put into, well, any of it. Glory here revolves around nude bike races and beer guzzling contests.

And yet [from time to time] there are glimpses of heartfelt interactions that enable us [or some of us] to connect the dots to our own lives. Those "human all too human" parts -- moments when you recognize the meaning of the expression "different strokes for different folks".

Anyway, there will always be the part where the world into which we are born shapes and molds us more or less than we are able to shape and to mold the world into which we are born. Sometimes the gap is enormous, other times too close to call.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Misfortunates
trailer: https://youtu.be/lrYi4kYc-fA

THE MISFORTUNATES [De Helaasheid Der Dingen] 2009
Written in part and directed by Felix van Groeningen

Gunther [as an adult in a voiceover]: I was an author even if that sounds ridiculous. I was the author of an unnoticed collection of poems published in the year blankety-blank by a crummy publisher. As a result, I wasn't, in fact, an author at all. From the publishers to which I had sent the manuscript of my latest masterpiece, all I received were standard letters of rejection. What did they know? I had to write and I'd keep on writing until I became an author. My day would come. It had to come.

Been there, done that. But, no, it still hasn't come.

Gunther [voiceover]: I lived in a strange place. A godforsaken place where once a year real men shaved their legs, dressed as women and then partied for three days and three nights. I was forced to forego the annual purification ritual until I was able to call myself a real man. Or, rather, was able to call myself a real Strobbe.

...

Gunther [voiceover]: I was 13 and was irrevocabnly destined to become like them. I, too, as a young member of the Stobbe tribe, would defend my name with honor.

...

Beefcake [to the repo man about to take away his mother's television set]: ...but in order to call yourself a repo man, you have to be an enormous bastard or you'd never be able to do your job!!

...

Gunther [voiceover]: The repo man's visit was thanks to Beefcake's gambling. He's rather naively thought that slot machines had been designed by alturists. Calling Beefcake a born loser may be going too far. On the other hand, he never won a single bet, contest or game. Never ever.

...

Lowie: Mom, what are you doing?!
Mom [of the repo man]: I can't give him a dirty TV.

...

Gunther [voiceover]: The TV was gone. Everyone agreed it was Beefcake's fault. So he's been instructed to come up with a solution.

Pity their Iranian neighbors: Roy Orbison was on.

Gunther [voiceover]: And thus, with a quickie against the wall of the cafe Las Vegas my father unwittingly brought his life as a bachelor to an abrupt end. 42 weeks later, he was in the Las Vegas when the telephone rang and my father heard that he has a son...27 years after I was born, I made the same stupid mistake as my father.

Stupidity passed one down through the generations as it were.

Gunther [as a child]: Dad, I'd like to board at school during the week. May I?
Dad [staring angrily at him]: What's this crap about boarding? What's that all about? I bust my balls for you. I do my best, but it's never good enough. First your mother and now you. You're a little traitor, that's what you are. And that filthy whore. I always knew she was a filthy whore.
[he points his finger at him ominously]
Dad: And you are the son of a filthy whore. That's what you are.

...

Gunther [voiceover]: The bigger I grew the smaller everything seemed. I got fed up with Franky. But he, or rather his father, beat me to it.
Franky [whose family inhabits the upper middle class]: Dad says I'm not allowed with you anymore.
Gunther: How come?
Franky: He says your father is crazy and your whole family is scum.
Gunther: And my mother abandoned me, Franky. Didn't your dad tell you that, too?
Franky: Don't blame me. It's my dad, honestly. He says you'll teach me how to smoke, drink, steal...
Gunther: I'm not blaming you. But I don't know if you know much about us. If your dad thinks he knows the Stobbes so well, he must know that the Stobbes all pull together.
Franky: What?
Gunther [ominously]: No one lays a finger on a Strobbe. We're a bit old-fashioned as far as that is concerned. Family honor and stuff. You'll understand when Uncle Petrol punches you in the face! And your father will be dealt with too. No one calls my father crazy!
[he shoves Franky roughly to the ground]

Actually, Dad doesn't react quite that way at all. Not after the cops show up.

Gunther [voiceover]: It was obvious. Poems wouldn't pay for nurseries. Doing unwanted work to pay for the existence of an unwanted child...there was a certain logic to it, when you thought about it.

...

Gunther [voiceover]: Unlike a car, the train travels past the world's rear. You only see the decay from a railroad track. No vehicle gives you a more honest impression of a country than a train. Look at our gardens and pigeon coops, our sheds. See our underwear drying on the line. Look at our garden gnomes, our celery, our leeks, our verandas and our brick barbecues. See how the cows gradually give way to brick monsters which those with the bank's approval but no taste have plumped down in the Flemish countryside. Take the train and see how, frozen to the spot, marble and granite stand next to the track, bored and covered in dust, providing our loved ones with a final resting place.

Who would have ever figured that coming from a Stobbe.

Gunther [voiceover]: It occured to me again how beautiful things get destroyed...or left our village.

...

Gunther [voiceover]: There are two people I hate. Two women. One gave birth to me, the other was carrying my offspring. You could say there was a connection between them, but that's probably just an impression. One's mind is confused when one is about to stop being a son and start becoming a father.

...

Father [to Gunther after a social worker comes around]: You're betraying your own family! You're betraying you're own family! You're betraying your own blood!
Mother: It was me! I called that woman! It was me who called that woman!! IT WAS ME!!!

...

Gunther [voiceover]: Once he calmed down, he was overcome by shame. He opened the phone book and phoned a rehab clinic. Then he put my name down for boarding school. "Son", he mumbled,"it's better this way. Until I'm better."

...

Father [to Gunther as a child]: You're a Strobbe. But you're different...

No, not really.

Gunther [voiceover]: There was a slight chance the baby would be born dead. Or would turn out to be black. In both cases, I would find it hard to hide my delight.

Nope, neither one.

Gunther [voiceover]: Life had been passed on, like a baton in an eternal relay race, the reason for which no one knows, but in which everyone clings to their misfortunes.

...

Wife: This baby chose to be with us. Babies choose their parents and not the other way around. This little man chose us.
Gunther: So you think kids choose their parents?
Wife: Yes.
Gunther [incredulously]: What a load of crap.

...

Gunther [voiceover]: You're always a bastard when you abandon a woman and her kid. But that's because you weren't enough of a bastard to leave her before you had made her pregnant.

Cue Gunther reading an acceptance letter from a book publisher. And then up on the screen...

5 novels later
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
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Posts: 36498
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Society and sex. Love and lust.

And then [cinematically] again and again and again and again and again.

Is there really anything new here?

No, not for the particularly jaded and cynical among us. But for all of those "coming of age" in an age that is saturated with sex [often disguised as love]...this might aid and abet them. Especially if they are "coming of age" as a homosexual.

This is a film that revolves around a lesbian relationship directed by a man based on a graphic novel written by a woman:

The book's author Julie Maroh was very supportive of the film's production and praised Abdellatif Kechiche with his originality; however, she wasn't pleased with the sex scenes and felt that they failed to capture the lesbian heart of the story.

There is also the part played by philosophy here:

The main characters refer to and discuss the writings of Sartre; particularly "Dirty Hands" and "Existentialism is a Humanism".

Teen angst meets existential angst?

In some ways the characters here are just part and parcel of the "youth culture" that flourishes throughout the post-modern industrial world. But in other ways they are considerably more sophisticated, intriguing, exceptional. And here at least the part where the personal and the political intertwine is explored with a bit more sophistication.

One thing however becomes abundantly clear: that homosexual relationships can become just as fucked up as heterosexual relationships. There's just no getting around the fact that we are human-all-too-human. Especially this part: emotionally we love one [or love one more] but sexually we want many.

This doesn't stop being the case [for most] just because they are homosexual. Or bisexual.

And then the part about class. And being "cultured". Adèle is a product of the working class, Emma a product of the upper middle class. One is content to be ordinary, a nursery school teacher, the other intent only on being creative, artistic...an outlier.

Look for the prosthetic vaginas. No, really, that's what they used for the oral sex scenes.

Oh, and it goes without saying that all of the characters here are at one with "the beautiful people".

IMDb

The actresses only read the script once. Abdellatif Kechiche insisted that they forget what the script said line for line, and instead asked them to improvise their scenes and really let their actions and words come out naturally and as unforced as possible.

There was controversy surrounding Abdellatif Kechiche and his work methods. It was revealed that he would do hundreds of takes for small scenes to achieve the desired realism of the story, and his intense directorial style was borderline abusive. Both actresses stated that the film looks so real because Kechiche pushed them to their breaking point, and that they were really struggling. They also said that they did not wish to work with him again.

For the first time ever the Palme d'Or at Cannes was also officially awarded to two of the actors. Usually only the director gets the distinction.

One of the sex scenes took 10 days to film.

Both Léa Seydoux and Adèle Exarchopoulos have said that their on-screen relationship was real to some extent, and that they are very close friends as a result.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Is_t ... est_Colour
trailer: https://youtu.be/Y2OLRrocn3s

BLUE IS THE WARMEST COLOR [La Vie d'Adèle - Chapitres 1 et 2] 2013
Written in part and directed by Abdellatif Kechiche

Valentin [at school]: Say something.
Adèle: I feel like I'm faking. Faking everything.
Valentin [of Tomas]: If he's getting you so worked up...
Adèle: No, it's me. He's not the problem. I'm missing something.

...

Teacher: "Little" is a word that comes back over and over in the play. It's a word that stigmatizes childhood, and powerlessness too. Childhood is a time when we're helpless. Not big enough, not mature enough, not strong enough. Antigone is a child. She's still little. "Too little," as she says. But she refuses to be little anymore. Not that day. It's the day she will say no. The day she says no, the day she dies. What we have here is the perfect example of tragedy. Tragedy is unavoidable. It's what we cannot escape, no matter what. It concerns eternity, It concerns what is timeless. It concerns the mechanism, the essence of humankind.

...

Older man in a gay bar to Adele: Love has no gender. Take whoever loves you. Whatever makes you happy. Who cares? True love. Even if we die tomorrow, who cares?

...

Adèle: Why is it called Fine Arts? Are there arts that are ugly?
Emma: No ugly arts. Some can be ugly. But it's subjective. There are no Ugly Arts schools though.
Emma: That's a good point. At the time of the Impressionists, everyone who was rejected from the Salon for beautiful paintings and everyone was considered "ugly" went to the Salon of...
Emma: The best artists.

...

Emma: I rarely do portraits. I pick a detail. And I use it again after. Differently. It can be a skin fold by the lips or an emotion in the eyes. "The mysterious weakness of man's face". Know that?
Emma: Sartre. Know him?
Adèle: Yeah, but I never heard that. I tried his essays but I didn't understand them. I prefer his plays. You know Dirty Hands?
[Emma nods]
Emma: Love it. Existentialism Is a Humanism. Good introduction. The idea behind Sartre is that existence precedes essense. We are born, we exist. And then we define ourselves by our actions. It gives us a great responsibility.
Adèle: I think I read it. But I didn't understand it. Maybe I'm bad at philosophy, but for me, existence, essence is like the chicken and the egg. I don't think we can ever know what came first.
Emma: None of that stuff matters much. He started an intellectual revolution that set our entire generation free. He said we can choose our lives without any higher principle.

...

Valentin: What the hell?
Adèle: Why did tell everyone we went to a gay bar? Why the fuck would you do that?
Valentin: It's not the end of the world...
Adèle: It is! They all think I'm a lesbian, eat pussy. She thinks I checked out her ass!

...

Emma: I love oysters.
Adèle: Really? The texture alone grosses me out.
Emma: That the best part.
Adèle: They're like little balls of snot. Or big balls of snot.
Emma: They remind me of something else.

...

Emma: Something to say?
Emma: What?
Adèle: I wanted to know, when was the first time you tasted...
Emma: Tasted a sausage?
Emma: A girl? You mean kiss or taste?

...

Emma: Enjoying philosophy?
Adèle: I love it. It's incredibly enriching. Very interesting. Very deep. Orgasm precedes essence.

...

Emma [to Adèle]: There's a fad in painting. You have to follow it. I don't care about fads. I don't give a shit. People only think in terms of business. They have no...I don't know how to explain it...they have not taste. They just have no taste.

...

Emma: Who is he?
Emma: The guy who dropped you off.
Emma: Do you think I'm stupid?

...

Emma: Why are you lying?
Emma: Then why are you crying?
Emma: Then why the tears?

...

Emma: You're a little slut. A little whore. You get fucked, right? You like that. You suck him off in his car and then kiss me? You dare kiss me. You dare touch me and look at me? And then you lie, you talk bullshit, you talk crap!!
Emma: There is no forgiveness! I never want to see your face again! Pack your bags and get out!!

This is some of the greatest acting you are ever likely to see. In other words, you'd swear they were not acting at all.

[Adèle and Emma meet again after 3 years]
Adèle: And sexually? Do you enjoy it with Lise?
Emma [groping for an answer]: It's...
Emma: It's not lousy, but it's...
Emma: I don't know, Adèle, it's not like with you.
Adèle [after a long pause]: I miss you. I miss touching each other, seeing each other, breathing in each other's scent.
[she takes Emma's hand]
Adèle: I want you. All the time. No one else. I miss everything. Let me touch you...
[she licks Emma's fingers]
Emma [after a time]: Stop.
Adèle: Don't say you don't want to. I don't believe it.
[she puts Emma's hand on her crotch]
[but after a while...]
Emma: Stop it. I can't.
Adèle: Forgive me. I don't know...it's beyond my control.
Emma; You're forgiven.
Adèle: You won't see me anymore?
Emma: No.
Emma: Yes, I have.
Adèle: Then you don't love me anymore.
[Emma shakes her head to confirm it: no she doesn't]
Emma: Yes. I'm with someone else now. You know that. But I feel an infinite tenderness for you. I always will. My whole life.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 36498
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

One of those teeny tiny films in which the director, the screen writers and the actors are all the same two guys.

It's a "horror" movie. But the best kind: psychological down to the bone.

In other words, nothing really "supernatural". Instead the "terror" revolves around this: the realization that it is not altogether out of the realm of possibility that you might bump into someone like this yourself.

And we all know there are any number of truly bizarre ways in which we can terrorize each other without being ghosts or gobblins. Or vampires or zombies.

Here of course there are generally two kinds of "monsters": The sociopath and the psychopath. One is just basically intent on inflicting pain [and fear] on you, while the other is acting out of a mental affliction that may not ever actually be understood. It's hard to say which experience is the more horrific. Why? Because with neither is there any real hope of "reasoning" him out of doing whatever terrible things he has planned.

And here, even though it all unfolds up on a mountain, it's not in some remote cabin out in the woods somewhere --- a million miles from another living soul. So it makes the context [and the horror] all the more plausible. At least it did for me. Also, you really can imagine someone wanting to do what Josef is doing "for his unborn son". In other words, you can imagine yourself falling for it.

The bottom line is that Josef really, really, really comes to embody creepiness. On one level you can go along with what he is saying. But increasingly you begin to suspect that something is really "off" with him. Then it's only a matter of finding out just how "off" he is. That and wondering whether or not Aaron will get out of it alive.

This is [supposedly] the first film of a Creep trilogy.

IMDb

Since the movie was based on a series of conversations between Patrick Brice and Mark Duplass, most of it was improvised. This led to a lot of scenes being shot and result and screened in front of their peers which is what pushed this psychological black comedy into a psychological horror after the advice of their friends and has at least three other alternate endings.

When Josef points out the "heart-shaped" pool of water, the overall rock formation closely resembles a skull, with an eye socket to the upper left and the rounded edges proportionate to what a skull would look like if the heart shape were the nasal cavity.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(2014_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/hYx5R6kbJTQ

CREEP [2014]
Written and directed by Patrick Brice

Aaron [voiceover while driving a car]: Alright, we are now leaving the flatlands and we are heading towards the mountaintop. Not sure who I'm meeting. The ad said, "$1,000 for the day, filming services. Discretion is appreciated." Whatever that means. ... Aaron [vocieover]: So here's a thought. What if this is just some 40-something who is sitting alone in her apartment waiting for some young, handsome boy to come up the hill and give her rubdowns...and whisper sweet nothings? We suspect that's not it. Josef [meeting Aaron]: Oh my God. Oh my God. This is going to be a good day. You have a really nice, kind face....Trust me, this is not going to be anything weird at all. ... Josef: I am a cancer survivor. I had cancer of the liver, spread to the lungs. It looked pretty bad. They gave me the chemo. I knocked it out. It immediately went into remission. It was pretty incredible. Unfortunately, two months ago, I started getting dizzy spells...and these sort of weird cognitive backfirings. Went back to see the doctor. Brain tumor the size of a baseball here. Aaron: Oh no... Josef: That's inoperable. So they gave me about two to three months to live. I'm hoping I beat it, you know? And the power of positive thinking...maybe, who knows? But in case I don't, I'm married. My beautiful wife Angela is pregnant with our first child. Have you ever seen the film My Life? Aaron: No. Josef: It's a beuatiful film. Michael Keaton has cancer in the film and he make a video diary of himself for his unborn son...I just want you to walk with me. I don't know exactly what I am going to do. I want you to document me how I am. ... Josef: You ready for this. Aaron: Okay, let's do it. Josef: All right. I'm going to get into the tub. Aaron [after a long pause]: In the tub? ... Josef [in the tub]: I just can't help thinking: "Why wait?" You know? Because...I could just end it right now. I could, you know. [he sinks down under the water] Aaron [worried]: Josef? Hey. Josef. Josef!... Josef bursts up out of the water. A joke he explains. To lighten the mood. Next up: Peachfuzz. Josef: What's really amazing is that there was about two seconds there after you were done being scared where it looked like you wanted to kill me. Aaron: No, I was just...it was... Josef: I don't take it personally. I think it was a visceral reaction, you know? A defense thing. But...but there is an animal in you. ... Josef: I have an ax back at the house. Aaron: Yeah. I saw it. Josef: Can I ask you a question? Answer me honestly? Aaron: Okay. Josef: When you saw that ax out in front of the house was there a small part of you that thought I might kill you with it? ... Aaron [starting to grasp that all is not as it seems]: Josef, do you remember how to get back? Josef: No. I don't. Aaron: It's just we've taken a lot of forks in the road and switchbacks that...I haven't been keeping track, so... Josef: I haven't either. But that's...I mean...that's back there, man. We gotta go forward. Aaron: Okay... Josef: We can't find the miracle if, you know, we gotta rope attached to us. ... Josef [after Aaron wants to leave]: One drink, Aaron. One drink and I'll send you on your merry way. Please. Aaron: Okay. One drink. ... Josef: Are you leaving? Aaron: Yeah. I'm going. Josef [after a pause]: I lied to you. Aaron:About what? Josef: About Peachfuzz. ... Josef: Aaron, if I tell you something will you promise not to tell a living soul...I need to get something off my chest... ... Josef [to Aaron with the camera off]: I did something really bad. About four years ago the internet stated to slow down at out house. Spoke to a guy I knew at work who said maybe the browser's history was full. I went home and I opened uo the internet. Aaron, such unspeakable things I saw. Pornography...mostly animal pornography. There's only two people who use that internet. Me and my wife, Angela. And I was not looking at animal pornography, Aaron. I confronted Angela. She flat out denied it. What could I say? I knew it was her. This lie drove a wedge between us and we began to drift apart. One weekend I said we should come up to the cabin. Right here. But I was called back to work and I left Angela here by herself. The thing is I wasn't really late for work. I went down the street to the 99 cent store. There I found a mask. It was a wolf. Three hours later I came back to the house, I put the mask on. I broke into the back window. Angela was asleep. I tied her up...at which point she awoke. At which point we proceded to have have ravenous, animalistic sexual intercourse. I'd never seen her so happy. I have to admit it didn't feel terrible on my end. I escaped through the window and left her there tied up. When I came back the next morning as myself, I asked her how her night was. She said it was fine with a casual smile. We never spoke of it. We went home and in the weeks that followed the internet got back up to speed. Aaron, I raped my own wife. ... Aaron: Have you seen my car keys? ... Angela [on the phone]: I'm sorry, who is this? Aaron: Aaron. Your husband hired me. Angela: What?! Aaron: Your husband hired me to film him. For the cancer. Angela [ominously]: Where are you right now, Aaron? Aaron: We're at your house in Crestline. Angela: You're where? Okay, never mind. Listen, I'm gonna recommend that you go ahead and just leave right now. Aaron: What the fucks going on?!! Angela: Nothing. You just go ahead and exist the house. You will be fine. Aaron: Lady, I'm trying to leave but I can't fine my fucking car keys! Angela: Okay, that's fine. Just give me the address of where you are and just walk out of there right now. Just keep walking, okay? Aaron: Am I in danger right now? Angela: My brother has problems... Aaron: Brother? Josep's your brother? But...That's...Your brother has cancer? Angela: Listen to me, Aaron...you have to get out of that house right now. ... Josef [to Aaron scrambling to get away]: Death. [pause] Josef: It's coming. [long pause] Josef: There's nothing we can do. [long pause] Josef [weeping]: I don't want to die, Aaron....I don't want to die. Oh, Aaron. Oh, God. ... Aaron: I talked to Angela, man.... [Josef bolts away] ... Aaron [to Josef wearing the Peachfuzz wolf mask and blocking the door]: Josef, please let me go. Are you gonna let me go? [Josef shakes his head] Aaron: Why are you doing this to me? Are you just trying to scare me? [Josef nods his head] Aaron: Okay, look. Well, I'm terrified, okay? You won. Now, will you please step aside and let me go? [Josef starts to undulate his body and to growl like a wolf] Aaron: Stop it. Stop it! Stop it!! STOP IT!!! ... Aaron [to the camera]: A little context here...After our scuffle, I don't know where he went. He just ran off. I had to get my car towed. And now I'm home. And, you know, I thought this was over. I was just writing it off as a weird thing that happened. And lo and behold a few days later I got this [a video of Josef burying something in the woods] in the mail. Which means he knows my address. That's a little disconcerting. I'm kinda having trouble interpreting it. I guess he's supposed to be digging a grave. Those three bags. I don't know if that's supposed to be a body or something...chopped up. Is that supposed to be me? ... Josef sends him a package. Aaron opens it and pulls out a meat cleaver and another video.. Josef [on the video]: So, just to clear the air I do want to apoligize for that last video I sent you. It was a little manipulative and a bit of an emotional response....and I'm sorry about that. But in all fairness I wasn't quite in my right head because, well, you did drug me. I found the empty Benydryl bottle in the house. And I gotta say, pretty cool move. So the way I see it is tat for tat, no hard feelings. But just in case, I thought I'd send you this little gift. To clear the air between us. I assume by know you have the knife and the video you are watching. But if you haven't found the third element, I'd encourage you to press pause now...and dig a little deeper. Aaron pauses the video and digs a little deeper into the box. It's a stuffed toy. A baby wolf. Josef [on the video]: I love wolves because they love deeply, but they don't know how to express it, and they're often very violent and, quite frankly, murder the things that they love, and inside of the wolf is this beautiful heart. And yeah it's misguided, and yeah occasionally it murders things. and this little wolf was so cute, it reminded me of you, honestly, You know, that moment I scared you in the woods. and it was - There was murder in your eyes, but it was like, it was baby murder, you're not ready to accept that yet, and I want to encourage you to embrace your inner wolf, so take the wolf and enjoy it, and more importantly, take the knife, and don't be afraid to murder it, because when you stick a knife in something, and you gut it and you really dig inside, I don't know man, there's all this beautiful stuff. And um...I got a little surprise for you in there. See ya soon, Buddy! So, he tears into the stuffed toy: Time to call the cops. And then one more video. In order to reveal "the truth". Josef [on a video...the last]: ....this is my attempt to be real and truthful and honest with you. The truth is...I...am....the truth is this is hard to talk about. I don't know what's wrong with me. I've always done this. I've been pretending my whole life. And there was this phase where I thought, "hey, I'll just be an actor, because actors pretend"....But it did nothing for me because it wasn't real...So I saw doctors and some of them thought "hey, he's crazy" and some thought not. And there were medications but none of that helped....I don't have any friends...I've burned every bridge. My sisters, my parents. I have nothing and I need somebody to talk to... So he invites Aaron to Lake Gregory to be that friend. Aaron [to the camera after viewing Josef's bizarre/chilling video]: What the hell am I supposed to do with this? ... Aaron [at Lake Gregory to the camera]: Alright, Josef, I'm here. You got me. But know that I'm filming this and my phone is set to speed dial to 911. Let's just put it this way: It's not enough. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Perhaps [ultimately] a salute to this fellow: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus Not at all what one might call a linear exploration into human reality. But then human reality itself does not often lend itself to being understood in this way. And then there's this part: This project was originally conceived to be a series of stand-alone short films. The only way Guy Maddin was able to receive enough funding was to string some of them together into a feature. So you reconfigure them all into another reality altogether. One that is described as a "romantic mystery comedy-drama" film. Exactly: Whatever that means. This film is also described as a "grand ode to lost cinema". Which is to suggest [technically and otherwise] a fond remembrance of movies as they once were made. But since I know almost nothing about this [and don't particularly care to] it is all rather over my head. But maybe not yours. Also, it's one of those films so extraordinary to look at it almost doesn't matter that you don't know what the fuck is going on. Or even if you think that you do. Just watch it. Or think of it instead as a visceral, primordial fever-dream-within-a-dream unfolding such that you might at least make the attempt to give it a meaning through, say, your own life? Or just imagine it as though someone were actually able to film the id. As one reviewer put it: Preposterous and Playful, Postmodern Surrealism, is a Stab at Defining the Work of Director Guy Maddin. His Influences may be David Lynch, Luis Bunuel, Salvador Dali, Silent Movies, Jackson Pollock, and the (Kitch)en Sink. Besides, if nothing else, you can finally learn how to take a bath. Finally, check this out: http://screenprism.com/insights/article ... or-guy-mad IMDb Each sequence of The Forbidden Room is based on reviews and summaries of "lost" films, mostly from America in the early to mid-20th century. These films were destroyed intentionally or by natural degradation of the original film stock, and will likely never be seen again. Guy Maddin realized the only way he'd be able to see these lost movies was to make them himself. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Forbi ... (2015_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/pwKvz-wA3I0 https://youtu.be/8YQw6KLJGf8 THE FORBIDDEN ROOM [2015] Written and directed by Guy Maddin, Evan Johnson Meet Marv. Marv pops up on the screen from time to time. He more or less ties the narrative together. Well, sort of. Marv: Hello. I'm Marv. Today, we're gonna discuss baths - more specifically, how to take one. Baths have been around for a long time. The ancient Romans built fancy ones, like Caracalla. In the Middle Ages, the were called "stews"... 'cause you had to be stewed in order to take one. They were open to both sexes. Today, the Japanese have bisexual bathing Here in America, we didn't bathe so much until recently. The Saturday-night bath used to be a ritual. Today, it's more like every other day, or... even every day. How do I know this? Heh. People have told me, that's how! ... Marv: Hey, you know the old joke, "What's the difference between a woman in a bathtub and a woman in church?" I'll give you a clue: the woman in church has hope in her soul. Be careful about passing gas when you're in the bathtub. It doesn't just go away! ... Marv: Hey, you ever hear the one about the man who checked into a hotel room and got into the tub and farted? The bellhop heard him and brought him a bottle of beer on a tray. The man said, "Hey, I didn't order that!" The bellhop said, "You did too! I distinctly heard you say, 'Bellboy, bring me a bottle of Bud!' ... Marv: Once you're done, you wanna dry yourself on a big, fluffy, Turkish towel. The Turks were heavily into baths too, hence the expression "Whoo! It's like a Turkish bath in here!" Now, you probably want to curl up with a nice book, or maybe get together with a special someone who hopefully will have bathed too in the fairly recent past! Whatever... enjoy. Mmm, that's what bathing is all about... in spite of what you may have heard to the contrary. Have a nice day! He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film "What am I supposed to do?" It's an old story. You can live your life like so many others -- lives of "quiet desparation" -- or you can choose instead to become absorbed in distracting yourself from all that by becoming, among other things, a "hedonist". Sometimes it's drugs, sometimes booze, sometimes sex, sometimes food, sometimes rampant consumerism. Or a combination thereof. But always the intent is being completely self-absorbed; and [thus] in distancing yourself from all that makes so many "ordinary lives" nasty, brutish and short. But... But then [this being a movie] Something Happens. You reach that fork in the road where you have to choose between becoming more or less like everyone else -- burdoned, responsible, sober -- or continuing down the path to self-destruction: as oblivious to "normal reality" as you can possibly be. And this is smack dab in the middle of the Big City: so we know that we are in the midst of the post-modern world. It's ultimately about obligations. To family. To yourself. To everyone else. It's also about the gap between being or not being "gravelly ill" in a culture where so much comes to revolve around me, myself and I. Suddenly you find yourself dependent on others who may or may not be there for you. Who may or may not want to be there for you. James does want to be there for his mother [if at times reluctantly] but then there's that part about "the system". The one in a Big City hospital for example. The Medical Industrial Complex. And then the part about death and dying. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_White_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/pdw828U3KMY JAMES WHITE [2015] Written and directed by Josh Mond James [to guests]: Hi, um, excuse me everybody. I'm James. I'm going to have to ask all of you to leave just for my mother and I to grieve in peace over my dead father. Is that okay'? I'm sorry. I know it's a bad time and everyone's sad, but I'm going to have to ask you all to go. ... James: Why are we even doing this, Mom? Why are we having a shiva'? You're not even Jewish. Am I the only one that thinks that it's crazy? Am I the only one'? ... James: I need to get out. I need to get out of here. Gail [mother]: Yes, you do. You need to grow up and get off of my couch. James: Get off of your couch'? I've been living here for four years taking care of you. Gail: Four years? Two years. Don't delude yourself. And you haven't been taking care of me. You've been freeloading. James: That is not right. When you were really sick, and your stem cell transplants, and your steroids, and your moods. Who fought for you? Who ran your errands? I'm your son and that is what I'm supposed to do. And I'm happy to be here because I love you. But I need a break. Gail [angrily]: That's all you do, James, is take breaks. You have been there. And you have been amazing at times, but you have got to get your act together. ... James [to Gail]: Look, Nick is down in Mexico. I am going to go visit him. I am not going to drink. And I am not going to smoke. I'm going to write and I'm going to meditate and I'm going to eat healthy and I'm going to swim and I'm going to work out and I'm going to write about all those feelings that are welled up inside me and when I get back I will get a place and a job but I need to go away. And when I come back I will be ready for life. ... James [on phone]: Hey, Ma. Gail: James, I need you to come home. James: No, I can't come home yet. I told you, I was still...I was going to be here for a while. Gail: But I need you. I need you to come home. James: Why? Gail: I need you here. James: Why, can you please tell me why'? Gail: Because I'm asking you. Okay, please? James: You have to talk to me, though. You're crying and you have to please tell me what's going on before I do this. Gail: I have to start treatment again. The cancer spread. James: Shit, okay, I'm going to get on the next flight. ... Gail: When I wake up in the morning, either you're here or you're not here. James: Mom! Gail: Your father was never satisfied either. He was selfish, too. ... James: This is my mother, Gail White. She's a stage four cancer patient. She's been going through chemo. She's been taking steroids. I woke up this morning and she had just left the house. Gail: I'm Gail White. Ambulance attendant: Where do you live? Gail: I live at 434 West 87th Street. Just down there. This is James. This is my son. James: I'm the one that called, man. Ambulance attendant: Okay, miss, let me ask you a couple questions. Do you know what year it is? Gail: It's 2000. Ambulance attendant: Do you know who the president is? Gail: George cock-sucker Bush. ... James: Miss, that's my mom in there, Gail White. She's a patient. She's a stage four cancer. She woke up, she started pulling out the tubes, and I think she shit herself. Somebody needs to change... Doctor: Someone will be in there in a second. James: Do you have any idea about the beds and... Doctor: We have no beds. She's not even listed in the computer yet. When somethings available, I'll let you know. James: Okay, excuse me, excuse me'? I just said she shit herself. She's sitting in shit. Can somebody change those sheets, or what do we do about that'? [the doctor just walks away] James: Thank you. ... James: Mom, do you remember what year it is'? Gail: It's 2013. James: Thank God. ... Nick: I'm right here. I'm right here. You need to relax! You're scaring us! You're scaring Jayne. You need to relax! James: Listen, she may die any day. She is scared to death! ... James [to Nick]: Dude, what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? No one tells me anything! She doesn't tell me anything! What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do?!! ... Ben: You remind me a lot of me. And your dad, you know. I loved your dad. And I love your mom. And I'm here to help. I want to help. So I'm just going to come right out and say this. Um... I wouldn't feel comfortable hiring you for anything right now. James: Yeah. Okay.Yeah. I understand. Um... But I really need this right now. Ben: Well, if that's true, then I'm really glad this meeting's with me and not somebody else. Because if you showed up without an assignment that you were asked to prepare, and the writing sample that you presented like this, you have a gash on your hand and you smell the way that you smell at 10 AM they would've stopped you at the elevator. You're a mess. ... Gail [to James]: The thing about us is we feel good things way up here, but we feel bad things way way way down there. And we gotta try to remember there's all this space in between...we gotta to live in there too. ... James [weeping as his mother lays dying]: Mom, I want you to know that...I'm going to be okay. I promise. I promise that I'm going to be okay. You can go. I love you. I love you. I love you. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film They could have called this one All The Pope's Men. After all, in some respects, it's like a remake of All The President's Men. Just a different set of scumbags this time around. For some it was a scandal that shook the world. For others it was the scandal that shook the world. In other words, for some nothing can be more despicable than men of the cloth molesting and raping young children. And yet that is precisely what these men of the cloth in the Catholic church did. Over and over and over and over again. Not only that but many in the church hierarchy were considerably more rather than less aware of it. And did little or nothing to report it. Let alone stop it. At least not until it became a scandal. Of course the other scandal here is how something like this can be turned into a cash cow: We got two stories here: a story about degenerate clergy, and a story about a bunch of lawyers turning child abuse into a cottage industry. And then there's this part: In real life, by the time the Boston Globe broke the story of the abuse scandal in Boston, the National Catholic Reporter had already been reporting on abuse within the church for seventeen years while other much bigger news outlets had refused to look at it. Some will argue that this is not about religion so much as corrupt, institutionalized religion. But to the extent that religion is complicit in sustaining sexual repression stories like this will always surface eventually. It's also important to note that through religion many, many, many people earn their living. God is their job. So, aside from the part about God there's the part about bucks. And the part about politics. And, in Boston, the Catholic Church is everywhere. IMDb During an interview on NPR's "Fresh Air," director Tom McCarthy said that they built a large set to depict many of the Boston Globe offices where parts of the story takes place. When the reporters depicted in the movie first visited the set, they gravitated to the desks where they had been sitting during the writing of the "Spotlight" piece, and many of them started to re-arrange the items on their desks to the way they had been at the time. During every break, Mark Ruffalo asked the real Michael Rezendes to say his lines for him. The real Walter Robinson said, "My persona has been hijacked. If Michael Keaton robbed a bank, the police would quickly have me in handcuffs." The real Michael Rezendes said, "Watching Mark Ruffalo re-enact five months of my life was like looking into a fun house mirror." At the 88th Academy Awards, Spotlight was up for six awards and won two Oscars. It won the first Oscar presented that night for Best Original Screenplay. Then, after losing in the next four categories it was nominated in (Best Supporting Actress, Best Supporting Actor, Best Film Editing, and Best Director), it won the final Oscar of the evening for Best Picture. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spotlight_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/Zg5zSVxx9JM SPOTLIGHT [2015] Written in part and directed by Tom McCarthy Marty: Did everyone read Eileen McNamara column this weekend? Helen: That's the Geoghan case? Marty: Yeah, what's the folo on that? Ben: It...It's a column, what kind of folo are you thinking? Marty: Uh... well apparently this priest molested kids in 6 different parishes over the last 30 years and the attorney for the victims, a Mr... Eileen: Garabedian. Marty: Thanks Eileen, Mr Garabedian says Cardinal Law found out about it 15 years ago and did nothing. Paul: Yeah, I think that attorney is a bit of a crank, and The Church dismissed the claim. Eileen: He-said, she-said. Marty: Whether Mr Garabedian is a 'crank' or not, he says he has documents that prove that Cardinal knew. Ben: As I understand that those documents are under seal. Marty: Okay, but the fact remains a Boston priest abused 80 kids, we have a lawyer who says he can prove Law knew about it and we've written all of... uh... 2 stories in the last 6 months. This strikes me as an essential story to a local paper, I think the very least we have to go through those documents. Paul: How would you like to do that? Marty: Oh uh, I don't know what the laws are here, but in Florida we would go to court. Ben: You wanna sue the Church? Marty: Technically we wouldn't sue the Church, we'd file a motion to lift the seal on the documents. Ben: The Church will read that as us suing them. So will everybody else. Marty: Good to know. ... Marty: I'd like to challenge the protective order in the Geoghan case. Publisher: You want to sue the Catholic Church? Marty: We're just filing the motion, but... Yes. Publisher: You think it's that important? Marty: Yes, I do. Publisher: Because obviously the Church will fight us very hard on this. Which won't go unnoticed by our subscriber base, 53% of them are catholic. Marty: I think they'll be interested. ... Robby: You are familiar with the Geoghan case? Eric: Sure, 80 plaintiffs. All of them individual cases, Garabedian must be swimming. Robby: Yeah, any allegation against Cardinal Law? Eric: Yeah, it's tricky. This is what you need to understand, these are shitty cases. Statute of limitation is only 3 years, and most of these victims don't come forward till long after that. Sacha: Why is that? Eric: Well they're kids, you know? Guilt, shame...And most of these kids come from tough neighbourhood, nobody wants to admit this kind of thing, so, uh, you're screwed on the time moment, and even if you argue your way around that, the charitable immunity statute caps damages at 20 grand. Sacha: 20 grand, for molesting a child? Eric: That is the way the system is set up, yes. The Church is tough, so your best shot is to try this cases in the press. ... Mitchell: The Church thinks in centuries, Mr. Rezendes. Do you think your paper has resources to take that on? Mike: Yeah, I do. But if you don't mind me asking...do you? ... Mike: So why are you here today? Robby: Going over this clips of Saviano. Mike: Yeah, Ben and Steve thinks it's a dead end. They gave me a bunch of crap about it at the game. Robby: Yeah, Ben emailed me. Mike: He did? Robby: Yeah...he said we should let it go. Mike: What do you wanna do? Robby: We bring Saviano in. Mike: So, just ignore those guys? Robby: I think we got to start ignoring everybody on this one. Mike: I'm good at that. ... Cardinal Law: If I can be of any help, Marty, don't hesitate to ask. I find that the city flourishes when its great institutions work together. Marty: Thank you. Personally I'm of the opinion that for a paper to best perform its function, it really needs to stand alone. ... Cardinal Law [handing Marty a wrapped package]: Little gift, Marty. Think of it as a Cardinals guide to the city of Boston. Marty unwraps it in the car. It's a book: CATHOLIC CHURCH CATECHISM. Marty is Jewish. Phil: First of all, let me say thank you for having me in today. And I want you to know that you'll have the full cooperation of my organization, SNAP. Mike: How many members are in your organization Phil? Phil: We had 11, at our last chapter meeting...no, 10, Karen just moved. Sacha: You had a woman in your group? Phil: Of course there was a woman, they don't discriminate, not when it comes to abuse. And this has nothing to do with being gay. What this is, is priests using the collar to rape kids. Kids, boys and girls. ... Phil: I was eleven. And I was preyed upon by father David Holly in Wester. And I don't mean prayed for, I mean preyed upon. ... Phil [to the Spotlight reporters]: Ok, well let me tell you...when you are poor kid from a poor family, religion counts for a lot. And when a priest pays attention to you, it's a big deal. He ask you to collect a hymnals, or take out a trash, you feel special. It's like God asking for help. Maybe it's a little weird when he tells you a dirty joke but now you got a secret together. So you go along. Then he shows you a porno mag. And then you go along, and you go along, and you go along. Until one day he asks you to jerk him off or give him a blowjob. And so you go along with that too. Because you feel trapped, because he has groomed you. How do you say no to a God, right? ... Phil [to the Spotlight reporters]: You guys gotta understand. This is big. This is not just Boston, this is a whole country, it's a whole world. And it goes right up to the Vatican. Mike: Do you have any proof ot that, Phil? Phil: No, not yet. But think about it, there are so many of them. How else could they have hidden it sor so long? Mike: So many what? Phil: Priests! Priests! I know 13 right here in Boston. Robby: You know 13 priest in Boston who have molested children? Phil: Yeah, why do you keep repeating everything I say? Robby: I just like to clarify things. Phil: Maybe you should've clarified it 5 years ago... when I sent you all of this stuff, it's all right here!!! ... Mitchell [to Mike, regarding Patrick]: He's one of the lucky ones. He's still alive. ... Richard [on the phone]: Look Mike, the Church wants us to believe that it's just a few bad apples. It's much bigger problem than that. Mike: How much bigger, Richard? Richard: Well, based on the research I would classify it as a recognizable psychiatric phenomenon. ... Mike: Sipes said the all targets the same kind of kid. Low income families, absentee fathers broken homes. A guy like Geoghan goes after boys not because he prefers them but because they are more ashamed, less likely to talk. And these guys are predators, Robby. I talked to Sipe. Said he's seen dozens of them in '60 in Seton. He called it a "phenomenon". ... Eric: Look, I told you guys, these are tough cases. Most of these folks, theyjust want some acknowledgement of what happened. We got them a sit down with the Bishop and a little dough, and that's the best they can hope for. Robby: Well, certainly, the best that priest could hope for. Eric: No, the Church promises to take the priest out of circulation. Robby: And did you follow up on that? ... Ben: So this was all under the table. Sacha: There's no paper trail, at all. The victim has to sign the confidentiality agreement to get the settlement. The lawyer takes the third and the Church sweeps it under the rug. Mike: Jesus, it's a freaking racket. Ben: It's more complicated than that. Macleish has got the duty to client to get the best deal he can. Sacha: Sure, but how many victims do you represent and profit from, before you say someting? Mike: Garabedian would say none. And that's why he's taking these cases to Court. Because he wants people to know about this. ... Robby: The Cardinal is in the corner, if you're so inclined. Marty: We've met. Robby: Really? Did he mentioned the suit? Marty: No, but he did give me a copy of cathecism. Robby: Yeah, well, the Cardinal is not known for his subtlety. During the Porter investigation, he literally called down the power of God on the Globe. Marty: How'd that play out? Mike: Well, a week later, our editor broke his leg skiing. ... Mitchell: Your new editor, he's a Jew, right? Mike: That's right, yeah. Mitchell: Well, see he comes in and suddenly everybody is interested in the Catholic Church. You know why? Mike: No. Mitchell: Because it takes the outsider. Like me. I'm Armenian. How many Armenians do you know in Boston? Mike: Steve Kurkjian, works at The Globe. Mitchell. That's two. ... Mitchell [to Mike]: This city, these people...making the rest of us feel like we don't belong. But they're no better than us. Look at how they treat their children. Mark my words, Mr. Rezendes. If it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to abuse one. ... Robby: Listen, Jimmy. You want to be on the right side of this. Jim: This is the Church, you're talking about Robby. Look around, these are good people, done a lot of good for this city. Enjoy the party. ... Matt: I've been through a lot these now. "Sick leave" isn't the only designation they use when they take one of these priests out of the circulation. They use slew of terms. Absent on leave...On assignment....Emergency response. Mike: They have a word for everything, these guys. Sacha: Except rape. ... Richard Sipes [on the phone]: I think that if you really want to understand the crisis you need to start with the celibacy requirement. That was my first major finding. Only 50% of the clergy are celibat. Now, most of them are having sex with other adults. But the fact remains that this creates a culture of secrecy that tolerates and even protects pedophiles. Sacha: So you believe the Church is aware of the extent of this crisis? Richard: Well, absolutely. After the first major scandal in Louisiana Tom Doyle, the secretary candidacy for papal nuncio co-opted a report warning that pedophile priests, were billion dollar liability. That was in 1985. Mike: Who saw that report, anyone from the catholic hierarchy? Richard: Sure. Doyle tried to introduce the report at the National Conference of Catholic Bishops. In fact, Cardinal Law initially helped to fund the report. But then he backed out and he shelved it. ... Mike: We think we have 13 priests... in Boston, that fits this pattern, which would be a very, very big story. Does that sound right to you? In terms of scale? Richard [on the phone]: No, not really, Robby. Sounds low to me. My estimate suggests 6% act out sexually with minors. Matt: 6%, of what? Richard: 6% of all priests. Mike: How many priest do we have in Boston? Matt: About 1,500, 1% is 15, 6% is...90? ... Ben: 90 fucking priests? In Boston? Robby: That's what he said. Ben: If there were 90 of these bastards, people would know. Mike: Maybe they do. ... Robby [on the phone]: I need you to tell me something, Jim. Could it be 90 priests? Jim: What? Robby: Could it be as high as 90? Jim: Jesus, Robby! Robby: I need to know, Jim. I wouldn't be asking if it wasn't important. Jim: You gotta stop this, Robby. [Jim hangs up] ... Robby: We have reasons to believe that there are allegations against as many as 87 priests in Boston. Eric: I can't talk to you about that. Robby: Does that number sound right to you? Eric: You gotta be kidding me, I just told you I don't have time for this crap. Robby: Eric, how many priests did you sign? Eric: Robby, you know I can't tell you that. Robby: You're going to give me their names and the names of their victims. Eric: Are you threatening me? Robby: We got two stories here: a story about degenerate clergy, and a story about a bunch of lawyers turning child abuse into a cottage industry. Which story do you want us to write? Because we're writing one of them. Eric: I already sent you a list of names. Robby: What are you talking about? To whom? Eric: The Globe, years ago. After the Porter case I got plenty of calls. I had 20 priests in Boston alone But I couldn't go after them without the press. So I sent you guys a list of names and you buried it. ... Marty: We need to focus on the institution, not the individual priests. Practice and policy; show me the church manipulated the system so that these guys wouldn't have to face charges, show me they put those same priests back into parishes time and time again. Show me this was systemic, that it came from the top, down. Ben: Sounds like we're going after Law. Marty: We're going after the system. ... Mike: And so I could just walk in to that courthouse right now and get those documents? Mitchell: No, you can not. Because the documents are not there. Mike: But you just said they're public. Mitchell: I know I did. But this is Boston. And the Church does not want them to be found, so, they are not there. Mike: Mitch, are you telling me that the Catholic Church removed legal documents from that courthouse? Mitchell: Look, I'm not crazy, I'm not paranoid. I'm experienced. Check the docket. You'll see. They control everything. Everything. Up next: 9/11. Matt: This is nuts. Two days ago I told my wife we gotta be working on biggest story on the planet. ... Phil: Look, I get it. No one wants to read about kids getting raped by priests. Especially now, but you asked a lot of people to relive some very painful experiences... Sacha: Phil you know why we were taking off of this story... Phil: It's been six weeks since 9/11. Sacha: I realize that, and we're gonna get back to it. Phil: When?! You're doing the same thing you guys did the last time. Sacha: No. Phil: You're dropping us. ... Judge: These exhibits you're after Mr. Rezendes...They're very sensitive records. Mike: With all due respect Your Honor, that's not the question. The records are public. Judge; Maybe so, but tell me...where is the editorial responsibility in publishing records of this nature? Mike: Well, where is the editorial responsibility in not publishing them? ... Mike: We got Law. This is it. Robby: No, this is Law covering for one priest, there's another ninety out there. Mike: Yeah, and we'll print that story when we get it, but we got to go with this now. Robby: No, I'm not going to rush this story, Mike. Mike: We don't have a choice, Robby. If we don't rush to print, somebody else is going to find these letters and butcher this story. Joe Quimby from the Herald was at the freaking courthouse! Robby: Mike... Mike: What? Why are we hesitating? Baron told us to get Law. This is Law. Robby: Baron told us to get the system. We need the full scope. That's the only thing that will put an end to this. Mike: Then let's take it up to Ben and let him decide. Robby: We'll take it to Ben when I say it's time. Mike: It's time, Robby! It's time! They knew and they let it happen! To kids! Okay? It could have been you, it could have been me, it could have been any of us. We gotta nail these scumbags! We gotta show people that nobody can get away with this; Not a priest, or a cardinal or a freaking pope! ... Robby: I'm out of time, Jim. We got cover-up stories on 70 priests. But the boss is not gonna run it unless I got confirmation from your side. Jim: Are you out of your mind? Robby: C'mon. This is our town, Jimmy. Everybody knew something was going on. And no one did a thing. We got to put an end to it. Jim: Don't tell me Don't tell me what I got to do. Yeah, I helped defend these scumbags, but that's my job, Robby. I was doing my job! Robby: Yeah, you and everyone else. ... Marty: Robby, that source of yours, is it something we could revisit? Robby: It might be tough. Ben: But he has no problem helping... the Church protect dozens of dirty priests. Guy is a scumbag. Matt: He's a lawyer, he's doing his job. Mike: He's a shill for the Church. Ben: He knew and he did nothing. Mike: He could have said something years ago. Maybe save some lives. Robby: What about us? Ben: What's that supposed to mean? Robby: We had all the pieces. Why didn't we get it sooner? Ben: We didn't have all the pieces. Robby: We had Saviano, we had Barrett, we had Geoghan. We had the directories in the basement. Ben: You know what, we got it now. Mike: Robby, this story needed Spotlight. Robby: Mike, Spotlight's been around since 1970. Ben: So what? We couldn't see the scope of this. No one could. Robby, this started with one goddamn priest. Robby: Macleish sent us a letter of 20 priests years ago. Sacha found a clip. Mike: Are you freaking kidding, 20 priests? When? Sacha: Just after Porter, December '93. Robby: We buried the story in Metro. No folo. Ben: That was you. You were Metro. Robby: Yeah. That was me. ... Marty [to the Spotlight reporters]: Can I say something here? Sometimes it's easy to forget that we spend most of our time stumbling around the dark. Suddenly, a light gets turned on and there's a fair share of blame to go around. I can't speak to what happened before I arrived, but all of you have done some very good reporting here. Reporting that I believe is going to have an immediate and considerable impact on our readers. For me, this kind of story is why we do this. ... Title card: Over the course of 2002, the Spotlight team published close to 600 stories on the scandal. 249 priests and brothers were publicly accused of sexual abuse within the Boston Archdiocese. The number of survivors in Boston is estimated to be well over 1,000. In December 2002, Cardinal Law resigned from the Boston Archdiocese. He was reassigned to the Basilica di Sata Maria in Rome, one of the highest ranking Roman Catholic cvhurches in the world. Major abuse scandals have been uncovered in the following places... Over 200 cities around the globe are noted. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film The good news: It's New York City: Practically anything goes. The bad news: It's the 1950's: Not everything does. Even in New York City back then there was a stigma attached to homosexuality. There were even laws against it. Engaging in it bore consequences many today cannot even imagine. On the other hand, after the Fifties, comes the Sixties. So: We are on the cusp of a cultural revolution of historic proportions. One in which many, many, many "social norms" were on the chopping block. Sexuality being right up there near the top. And [of course] some are going to be more or less sophisticated about such things. That's the part where class comes in. One is a sales clerk, the other wears mink stoles. But both are exceptional. And both are involved with men. Carol is divorcing one and Therese has one who wants her to be his wife. And then there's the part about love. Love between two people that, sex aside, becomes an extraordinary experience. And, if you are both drop dead gorgeous, all the better. Aside from the child custody conflict though, there is no broad political subtext here. This is years before Stonewall. It all seems to focus more instead on two particular individuals who, in a city of millions, happen to bump into each other "out in the world" and become attracted to each other in a big, big way. Most of us would very much like it to happen in our own lives. And I know that it never happened to me. IMDb Both Cate Blanchett and Rooney Mara said that they had great chemistry on set and filming their love scene was relatively easy. Blanchett credited director Todd Haynes for making her and Mara feel comfortable. "There was a lot of trust on the set between Rooney and Todd and Todd and I and he was very clear about how he wanted to shoot it and what parts he was going to use so we all felt very safe." The character of Carol Aird was inspired by Virginia Kent Catherwood (1915-1966), a Philadelphia socialite six years older than Patricia Highsmith with whom the author had a love affair in the 1940s. Catherwood lost custody of her daughter after her homosexuality was used against her with a taped recording of a lesbian liaison she had in a hotel room. The novel "The Price of Salt" was inspired by a blonde woman in a mink coat that ordered a doll from Patricia Highsmith when she was working as a temporary salesgirl in the toy section of Bloomingdale's in New York City during the 1948 Christmas season. Highsmith recalled feeling "odd and swimmy in the head, near to fainting, yet at the same time uplifted, as if I had seen a vision." The film received a 10-minute standing ovation at the 2015 Cannes Film Festival (Festival de Cannes) international premiere. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_(film) trailer https://youtu.be/679wr31SXWk CAROL [2015] Directed by Todd Haynes Carol: And do you live alone, Therese Belivet? Therese: Well, there's Richard. He'd like to live with me. Oh no, it's nothing like that, I mean he'd like to marry me. Carol: I see...and would you like to marry him? Therese: Well, I barely even know what to order for lunch. ... Carol: What a strange girl you are. Therese: Why? Carol: Flung out of space... ... Therese: I always feel funny taking pictures of people, like it's some sort of in... Dannie: Invasion of privacy? Therese: Yeah. Dannie: Well, all of us, you know, we have affinities for people. We like certain people. You like certain people, right? Therese: Sometimes. Dannie: And you don't like others. And you don't know why you are attracted to some people and not others. The only thing you really know is you either are attracted or you're not. It's like physics bouncing off each other like pinballs. Therese: Yeah, but not everything's as simple as a bunch of pinballs reacting off of each other. ... Harge: Abby. There's always Abby. Carol: Abby and I were over long before you and I were over, Harge. Harge: It shouldn't be like this. Carol: I know. ... Harge: How do you know my wife? Carol: Harge, please. Therese: I work at Frankenberg's, sir, the department store. Carol: I ordered a gift from her desk. I forget my gloves, she returned them, and I thanked her. Harge: Well, that's bold. ... Harge: I put nothing past women like you, Carol. Carol: You married a woman like me. Harge [angrily]: If you don't get in that car with us right now... Carol: Then what? It's over? Harge: Goddamn you. You were never cruel... ... Therese: I should call a cab.... Carol: Just when you think it can't get any worse, you run out of cigarettes. ... Carol [on the phone]: I was horrible. Earlier. Will you forgive me? Therese: Yes, I mean...I mean... Carol: Then will you...would you let me come see you tomorrow evening? Therese: All right. Yes. I want to know...I think...I mean, I want to ask you things, but I'm not sure that you want that. Carol [weeping]: Ask me things. Please... ... Fred [an attorney]: Harge has sought an injunction which denies you any access to Rindy until the hearing. And I'm afraid Harge has changed his mind about joint custody. He wants sole custody of Rindy. Carol: We've already reached an agreement on custody. What's this all about? Fred: They're filing papers on the 29th in District Family Court for the, uh, permanent custody petition. Carol: Can he do this? Is it right? Fred: I don't know if it's right, but it's legal. Carol: On what grounds? Fred: Listen, let's wait till after Christmas... Carol: Fred, on what grounds? Fred: They're petitioning the judge to consider a morality clause. Carol: A morality...what the hell does that mean? Fred: Okay, I won't mince words with you. Abby Gerhard. ... Therese: Have you ever been in love with a boy? Richard: No. Therese: But you've heard of it. Richard: Of course. I mean, have I heard of people like that? Sure. Therese: I don't mean people like that. I mean two people who just...fall in love. With each other. Say, a boy and a boy. Out of the blue. Richard: I don't know anyone like that. But I'll tell you this: there's always some reason for it. In the background. Therese: So you don't think it could just...happen to somebody, just...anybody? Richard: No. I don't. What are you saying? Are you in love with a girl? Therese: No. ... Abby: You know, Harge, you've spent ten years making damn sure her only point of reference is you...your job, your friends, your fam... Harge: Where is she? Goddamn it! She's still my wife, Abby. She's my responsibility. Abby: You know, that's some way of showing it, slapping her with an injunction. Harge [desparately]: I love her. Abby [quietly, almost pitifully]: I can't help you with that. ... Carol: Happy New Year. Therese: Happy New Year. Carol: Harge and I never spend New Year's Eve together. There's always a business function, always clients to entertain. Therese: I've always spent it alone. In crowds. I'm not alone this year. ... Therese [to Carol]: Take me to bed.... ... Carol [at the car]: Where is my suitcase? Therese: I put it in the back. Carol: I want my fucking suitcase! [she takes a gun out of it] Therese: Carol, what's going on?! ... Carol [to the private detective paid to spy on her]: Where's the tape, you son of a bitch? ... Therese: How could you? Private detective: I'm a professional, Miss Belivet. It's nothing personal. ... Therese [to Carol]: I don't know what I want. How could I know what I want if I say yes to everything? ... Therese: She's gone? Abby: Early this morning. Therese: Is she coming back? Abby: No. ... Therese: With you and Carol, what happened? Abby: It's completely different. I've known Carol since I was ten years old. It was five or so years ago. Summer. Late one night, my Ford broke down near my mother's house. We tried to stay up but curled up together in my old twin bed. And that was it. For a while. And then it changed. It changes. Nobody's fault. ... Carol [voice-over in a letter to Therese]: Dearest, there are no accidents, and he would've found us one way or another. Everything comes full circle. Be grateful it was sooner rather than later. You'll think it harsh of me to say so, but no explanation I offer will satisfy you. Please don't be angry when I tell you that you seek resolutions and explanations because you're young. But you will understand this one day. I want you to imagine me there to greet you, our lives stretched out ahead of us, a perpetual sunrise. But until then, there must be no contact between us. I have much to do, and you, my darling, even more. Please believe that I would do anything to see you happy. And so, I do the only thing I can. I release you. ... Carol [at the custody hearing]: Harge I want you to be happy. I didn't give you that. I...I failed you. I mean, we both could have given more, but, we gave each other Rindy, and that is the most breathtaking, the most generous of gifts. So why are we spending so much time trying to keep her from each other? Now, what happened with Therese I wanted. And I will not deny it, or say that I...But I do regret, and I grieve for the mess we are about to make of our child's life. ... Carol: Anyway the apartment's a nice big one. It's big enough for two. I was hoping you might like to come live with me, but I guess you won't. Would you? Therese: No, I don't think so. ... Carol to Therese: I love you... He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Straight out of Palm Springs? Straight out of Beverley Hills? Straight out of the Hamptons? Nope, just doesn't resonate. No cache. No grit. But: straight out of Compton? Yep, that works. On the other hand what does that actually mean? In other words, in being being straight out of Compton [and bursting at the seams with "attitude"] do you come closer to, say, the Black Panthers or to the Crips and the Bloods? That's where many of the reactions to this film fall. How does it either reflect or not reflect on the Black Community? Or on the interests of the Black Community? Going all the back to...when exactly? Thug life. Being "gangstas". Embodying the "strength of street knowledge". The opening sequence says it all. And the glorification of all manner of reactionary bullshit. No getting around that part, is there? Though it doesn't really much surface here. Look for the part that's "just business". And, in some respects, not really all that far removed from the way in which it is "just business" for the Sopranos. But, in other respects, it's all "just business" in the more traditional sense. Once someone figures out a way to make money out of something in this culture the lawyers are employed to tug the whole enterprise in some very particular directions. Like, for example, all the way to the banks. Or the laundry rooms. And then the part about the LAPD. Nothing exaggerated there. As for all of the other battles, let's just say that, by and large, they were internecine. And it was invariably about the money, about the power, about the egos. Though sometimes in the disguise of principles. IMDb Despite the success of the movie, the film has not been screened in Compton. Because the city doesn't have a cinema. The actors re-recorded NWA's entire Straight Outta Compton album to help them get into character. The original cut of the film was 3 hours and 30 minutes. The cut scenes included Dr. Dre's infamous beating of journalist Dee Barnes, the incident where Dre was shot four times in the leg, and a graphic flashback of his younger brother's death. Jerry Heller later said that one of his greatest regrets was dissuading Eazy-E from killing Marion 'Suge' Knight. The letter that the FBI sent to NWA can be seen at The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, Ohio. The Jheri Curl wigs used in the film were$15,000 each.

On July 16, 2014, a casting call for extras for Straight Outta Compton was released on the Sande Alessi Casting Facebook page. The casting call was looking for African-American girls for the film using an A-D ranking scale. Though the 'A girls' category was looking for drop dead gorgeous 'classy' women of all colors, the 'B through D' categories were very explicitly linked with skin-tone. As the women get less attractive, the casting call wants the women's flesh tone to be darker, with the lowest listing calling for 'African American girls. Poor, not in good shape. Medium to dark skin tone.' The casting call post went viral as people expressed their outrage of what they call colorism, sexism, and racism in the categorizing of black women. A representative for Sande Alessi Casting said the ad was an 'innocent mistake' and when it comes to casting 'poor' people, they're also looking for women of various skin tones and body types. As for the A,B,C,D grouping system, Sande Alessi Casting says "it's the usual method [they] use to look for different types of people for any project and it wasn't meant to offend anyone."

Jerry Heller described how he viewed Eazy-E's 'thug' persona as "self-forged armor" in his book, "Ruthless: A Memoir". Heller's description of Compton, where Eazy-E and the other NWA group members lived, was that, "No one survived on the streets without a protective mask. No one survived naked. You had to have a role. You had to be 'thug', 'playa', 'athlete', 'gangsta', or 'dope man'. Otherwise, there was only one role left to you. 'Victim.'"

In real life, Ice Cube purposely chose not to see Eazy-E in the hospital nor go to his funeral. The last time he saw him alive was at a nightclub in New York where they buried the hatchet and forgave each other. He wanted his last moment with E to be a positive one.

Jerry Heller has stated that the falling out between himself and NWA depicted in the film is almost completely fictional but refuses to go into what actually happened between himself and Eazy-E towards the end of their working relationship, stating "Eric isn't here to tell his side, so why should I?"

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_ ... pton_(film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/fKaisid1jz8

STRAIGHT OUT OF COMPTON [2015]
Directed by F. Gary Gray

Verna [mother]: Spinning records ain't paying the bills around here.
Dr. Dre: What are you talking about? I get paid.
Verna: 50 dollars? So that makes you rich?
Dr. Dre: It's a start.

...

Dr. Dre: Why you riding me so hard?
Verna: I'm not riding you, baby. I'm trying to make you understand. And you know how Irun my house. Now, you gonna have to go to school, or you gonna have to go to work. I don't even care if you are a janitor. I don't care what you do.
Dr. Dre: Long as I own the company. I know, I know.
Verna: But you don't own the company. Lonzo does.
Dr. Dre [turning to walk away]: Okay
Verna: You think we're done here?
Dr. Dre: Yeah, I mean, you keep...
Verna:P You got something to say to me?
Dr. Dre: You don't care what I'm fighting for, okay? I already know what I want to do with my life, and it definitely ain't sitting in some cubicle, taking orders on a bullshit-ass job.
[Verna slaps him across the face....hard]
Verna: Shut up! People used to tell me I was too young when I had you. Said I wouldn't be shit. Said you wouldn't be shit. Now, I worked my ass off to get us here, and I refuse to let you throw it all away.

Of course we know where this story goes.

Ice Cube [to Dr. Dre]: Man! Had some crazy shit happen on the school bus today. I had a Crenshaw Mafia O.G. get on the bus, pulled a gun out on us, gave a fucking motivational speech and then bumped out. Shit was crazy!

...

Dr. Dre: I'm just saying, if you can slang dope...
Easy-E: Nigga!
Dr. Dre: What, man?
Easy-E: Just tell the whole fuckin' world I sell dope.
Dr. Dre: Yo, yo. You can slang dope, you can slang records, man. It's easy. You got a mind for that shit, E.
Easy-E: So what you talkin' about doing? Li'I homey from last night?
Dr. Dre: Nah, man. He in a group. You know, they a trip, but...but that shit, the reality raps, that's what I'm talking about, man. That's it.

...

Dr. Dre: That's what I'm saying, man. Start a label or something, man.
Easy-E: A label? That's kinda fuckin' farfetched, Dre.
Dr. Dre: Yeah, but check this out. What would you call a record label like that?

...

Lonzo [to Dr. Dre]: Wrap this shit up. I need you to get back on that slow jam we talked about. This whole reality rap shit y'all tryin' to do, talkin' about low riders and jail, don't nobody wanna hear that shit.

Unless of course they do.

Jerry: As a music manager, let me tell you what I can do for you, Eric. I will make you legit.
Easy-E: It seems as if I could do something for you.
Jerry: I see. You think because I don't have some flashy office, I don't know what I'm talking about? I worked with Elton John. I worked with Otis Redding. Let me see. I worked with War. I worked with Styx. I worked with...
Easy-E: Have you worked with anybody this decade?

...

Jerry: What's NWA stand for, anyway? "No Whites Allowed", something like that?
Eazy-E: No... Niggaz Wit' Attitudes.
Jerry [after a pause]: I like that. I like that a lot.

...

Easy-E [to the group]: Let's go get this money.

...

Cop: We're trying to check these bangers, make sure they're clean.
Jerry: I'm sorry. These are not bangers. Okay? These are artists.
Cop: Excuse me? Artists? Seriously? What kind of artists?
Jerry: Rappers. And they're working with me in the studio right now.
Cop: Well, see, rap is not an art. I'm sorry. Who are you?
Jerry: I'm the manager.
Cop: Well, you're wasting your time, Mr. Manager. These clients of yours, these rappers, they look like gang members.
Jerry: You can't come down here and arrest people just because of what they look like. What, are you crazy? That's police harassment.
Cop: You said you're a manager, right? Not a fuckin' lawyer.
Jerry: Does that matter? You cannot come down here and harass these guys because they're black!

...

Greg Mack [on the radio]: 1580 KDA Y. This is Greg Mack of the Mack Attack. I gotta tell you, you are witnessing history. LA's first supergroup, N. W.A, with their new album Straight Outta Compton, and they're taking the nation by storm.

...

News reporter [on TV]: Gangster rap has become incredibly popular and profitable by selling lyrics about violence to a young mainstream audience that wouldn't dream of going anywhere near a ghetto.
Tom Brokaw [on TV]: Not all music stars, as you know, are model citizens. Some have had run-ins with the law. That's certainly nothing new. But now a few musicians have taken that to new heights. Or to new depths.

...

Dr. Dre [after Jerry hands him a letter]: What's that? Motherfuckin' FBI. What the fuck?
Easy-E: Wait, the FBI? They comin' after us too?
Jerry: Kind of.
Easy-E: I mean, what the letter say, Jerry?
Jerry: Uh, basically, uh... "A song recorded by the rap group N.W.A... on their album Straight Out Of Compton encourages violence against law enforcement. Advocating violence and assault is wrong, and we in the law enforcement community take exception to such action."

...

Jerry: This isn't, uh, street bullshit. This isn't the Crips and Bloods and crap. This is the federal government. These guys can come after us a million different ways. I don't even want to think about it. Why provoke them?
Easy-E:The fuck does that mean?
Ice Cube: If it was the LAPD, maybe I'd be a little worried. But we can't let them censor us, Jerry.
Jerry: I'm not advocating for censorship, Cube.
Easy-E: Maybe none of us should be worried. Maybe we should be happy. 'Cause this letter right here is a gift.
Ice Cube: It's the FBI, E. What you talking about?
Easy-E:This... is free publicity for N.W.A. We take this to the press and we show them what type of intimidation, discrimination and harassment that we dealing with from our government.

...

Jerry: ...another one called me and told me she's pregnant by you too. You just gotta slow down. You can't fuck every broad on the planet.
Easy-E: So now pussy a problem?
Jerry: It's gonna be a problem if you got 4,000 kids. Right?

...

Ice Cube [watching a crowd destroy their records]: Ain't that some shit? Speak a little truth and people lose their minds.
Eazy-E: See, the truth is, they can do whatever they want with them. They bought them motherfuckers.

...

Detroit cop [ to the group before an N.W.A. performance]: No person shall disturb the
peace by participating or abetting... in any rude, indecent, drunken, riotous or violent conduct or the use of any vulgar, obscene or abusive language in a public place. Note also the performance of the song 'F the Police' will not be permitted. Refusal to abide by all
the Detroit city ordinances will result in immediate arrest and forfeiture.
Dr. Dre: Are we finished here? We got a show to do.
Cop: Just watch yourself.

...

Ice Cube [to the audience]: Hey, hold on, hold on. Y'all know what the motherfuckin' police tried to tell us backstage?
Audience: What?!
Ice Cube: They tried to tell us what the fuck we can't play. Motherfuckers tryin' to tell us what the fuck we can't say. This N.W.A! We do what the fuck we wanna do. We say what the fuck we wanna say! So everybody... put them middle fingers high in the sky. And to the punk-ass cop backstage...Yo, Dre.
Dr. Dre: What up?
Ice Cube: I got somethin' to say....

...

Ice Cube [after Jerry hands him the contract to sign]: All right, cool. So I could take this
to a lawyer or somebody, right?
Jerry: Cube, those guys are paid to make trouble. They're gonna create problems where no problems exist.
Ice Cube: Jerry, you know I don't know what none of this legal shit mean. All right? None of us do. We're gonna need a lawyer before we sign anything.
Jerry: Everybody else has already signed. I thought you knew this. You're the only one who hasn't.

...

Jerry [handing Ice Cube a check]: There's also this...$75,000. Sign the contract, and all this money is yours. Ice Cube: That's my money anyway, Jerry! I earned that money! Now I wrote a lot of hit songs. We've been on this tour for months, selling out shows, selling records. I know it's plenty of money! Jerry: Really? Jesus Christ. Ice Cube: Gimme my money, Jerry. Jerry: How the hell do you think this works? How the hell do you think all of this gets paid for? The hotel rooms, the tour buses, security, the parties, all this shit. How do you think it gets paid for, you think it's free? Ice Cube: Why are you doing this now? If we were so good, why didn't you give us contracts in the beginning? Jerry: Because nothing is a sure thing, Cube. Even a great talent can crash and burn. Too much ego, too much excess, too many expectations. It tends to ruin things. You oughta keep that in mind. [Jerry and Cube tensely glare at each other] Ice Cube: This Eric's company, right? Bye Jerry [he tosses contract on the table] Ice Cube: I'm out. ... Ice Cube [to Dr. Dre]: I'd rather be broke than get fucked. I told you not to sign that shit, Dre. Dr. Dre: Nigga, I got bills to pay. And you know that. And I gotta put some money in my mama's hand after Tyree passed, man. Ice Cube: I feel you. We gotta do what we gotta do. They're gonna take care of you. You their bread and butter. Dr. Dre: Cube, we Ruthless. Ice Cube: We N.W.A. They Ruthless. ... Ice Cube: I been did the work. I gave you the product. Give me my money, Bryan. When a man does the job, he's supposed to get paid, and you making it seem like I'm beggin' for some shit that's technically mine. Bryan: Of course you are not begging. And I am not trying to be difficult, man. I promise you. Ice Cube: But you can't help me, right? That's what you telling me? Bryan: My hands are tied, man. Let's just say that that was the wrong answer. Dr. Dre: Hey, um...Maybe...Maybe some of your people can look into my paperwork too. Suge: Most definitely. ... Jerry [after hearing Ice Cube's "fuck N.W.A" rap]: First thing we're gonna do, we're gonna sue this ignorant fuck. That's what we're gonna do. Defamation of character, libel, I don't really care of that anti-Semitic piece of fucking shit, who the fuck does he think he is? Unfucking believable! That kind of fucking bullshit! Jew bashing bullshit! You know what, I'll call up my friends at the J.D.L. They'll handle him, we'll see how much he likes that. Eazy-E: Jerry, you gotta relax. Alright? Niggas don't even know what anti-Semitic means anyway, it's a fucking battle rap. Jerry: C'mon, Eric, we gotta get organised. We gotta fight this kind of ignorant fucking bullshit. You know what? I always knew he was a hateful human being. This is your ignorant shit. He calls it political? This is ignorant shit! I always knew it. Now the whole world is gonna know. I'm gonna make sure of that, okay? I don't understand why the fuck you're not more angry about this? Did you hear what he said? Eazy-E: I heard what he said. Jerry: DID YOU HEAR WHAT HE SAID?!!! Eazy-E: I heard what he said! Jerry: About you? About me? Come on! Eazy-E: You got your way of dealing with it, I got mine. ... Dr. Dre: Man, we started this N.W.A shit. I just want it to be right. Easy-E: And this what you think right? Turnin' your back on somebody after all he done for us. Dr. Dre: You mean all he done for you. Right? Look at me. Look at me. When Tyree died, you said we was always gonna be brothers. But I guess you forgot about that. I'm-a start my own company with Suge Knight, E. Thought we were brothers, man. ... Easy-E [after Suge and his thugs beat the shit out of him]: I gotta kill this motherfucker Suge Knight. I just came here to let you know, 'cause shit might get a little thick. I need to stay protected. Jerry: No, you're not gonna do that. No. Easy-E: I didn't come here to ask for permission. I came here to let you know. You wanted to be involved with this gangster shit? Here we go. Jerry: You do that, and you're gonna ruin everything we've worked for. Easy-E: You really think I got a fucking choice? Look at my face! This the streets. Motherfuckers came at me! Came at us! If I don't hit back, we finished. It's over. Jerry: I'm not saying that we're not gonna hit back. But this is not Compton...if you haven't looked around. Drop that shit, okay? We don't hit back with bullets. We hit back with lawyers. We drain these assholes. That really takes 'em down. Easy-E: It ain't about the money, Jerry. I don't care about no money. Jerry: Of course it is. And you should fucking care about the money. You're so much smarter than these fucking thugs. You wanna kill somebody? You're gonna go to jail forever. No more family, no more Ruthless, no more anything. If you kill this man, his problems will be over, and yours will just be beginning. Don't be a fucking fool. ... Ice Cube [Cube is upset at the reporter asking questions about "Fuck Tha Police", Cube's relationship with the Nation of Islam & his feelings about Jerry Heller, instead of asking about Rodney King]: But I get it. The bigger the story, the bigger the check in your field of work. I shouldn't blame you, it's not your fault. What's your name? [extends his hand] CNN Journalist [extends his hand]: Brian. Ice Cube [retracts his hand]: Eat a dick, Brian. Get the fuck out my house. Y'all done here. ... Dr Dre: This why we got money? To act like we ain't got no goddamn sense? We coulda did all this dumb shit back in Compton. But this what the fuck y'all turn into. You sittin' up here eatin' fuckin' crab. Who the fuck are you? Huh? This my motherfucking name on the wall, man! And y'all in here acting like y'all on motherfucking vacation. I got Pac in the next motherfucking room. Grindin', man. Workin'! And y'all niggas in here partyin'?! Suge: You trippin'. We can do anything we wanna do. We started this thing. This is us. Dr Dre: Nah, nigga. Death Row, that's us. I don't know what the fuck this shit is. ... Eazy-E: I liked 'Boyz 'n the Hood.' Ice Cube: You called it an Afterschool Special. Eazy-E: I like Afterschool Specials, Cube. ... Eazy-E [upset that Jerry had embezzled money from him]: Here's what's about to happen. I'm gonna get N.W.A back together. And you ain't gonna have nothing to do with it this time. Jerry: Why the fuck can you even say something like that? What the fuck is going on with you, man? I know what's good for you, I know what's good for Ruthless, and we have worked up a trust after years of hard work and that trust is our foundation, Eric. I don't give a shit. Eazy-E: Trust? Trust is a muthafucka! Jerry: Is it? May I ask you something? Eric, If what I'm doing is so illegal, how come I've never been sued? If I'm such a fucking thief, such a liar, such a motherfucker, how come nobody's ever come to collect? Because this is business. And this is how it works. And it's not always pretty, no. Do I cover my own ass? Do I cover my own end? Absolutely. But don't you dare fucking tell me that I have not taken care of you. Don't you fucking tell me that I've not had your back from day one! Day one!! Eazy-E [indicating the folder]: Is this taking care of me? ... Tomica: Aren't you gonna say something? What is it? A respiratory infection, pneumonia, what? Doctor: Yes, well, it is those things and more, I'm afraid. We ran a full blood battery and... I'm sorry, Mr. Wright, but you've tested positive for HIV. Eazy-E: Get the fuck outta here. Tomica: What? Doctor: The normal T-cell count is anywhere between 500 and 1500. Right now, your T-cell count is 14. Eazy-E: But I ain't no faggot. Doctor: No, Mr. Wright, actually the virus can be transmitted in quite a few ways, including unprotected heterosexual sex. Eazy-E: That's wrong. You... you gotta test that again. Test that again. Doctor: We've run the test five times, with five different samples, and the results remain. Tomica: Shit! [Tomica storms out of the room] Eazy-E: She's pregnant, Doc! What does this mean? Doctor: It doesn't necessarily mean that she's contracted the virus, but... we'll have to test her, to be sure. Eazy-E: So what do we do? When do we start the the treatment? I mean, what... I gotta get healthy, I got things to do. I got... What's we supposed to do? Doctor: Mr. Wright, you need to understand that you are very, very sick. Eazy-E: But I don't even feel that bad Doc, don't tell me that. Doctor: With care, and palliative care, we can probably keep you comfortable for maybe six months, at the very most. [by this time, Eazy is in a deep panic and is beginning to cry] Eazy-E: Comfortable? What do you mean comfortable? Doctor: It's just a matter of time. I am, I am truly, truly sorry, Mr. Wright. I'll leave you time to process this. [the doctor leaves the room, leaving Eazy helpless as he cries] He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film For some it's hard to imagine not coming up with 630 dollars. Let alone not coming up with it to pay for an abortion. The abortion here is not for Elle. Elle is, well, old. And a lesbian. Instead, the abortion is for Elle's 18 year old granddaughter, Sage. So the first thing you're wondering is how the "politics of abortion" will play out. Will Sage have the abortion? Will there be characters going back and forth debating the morality of it? And what could possibly constitute a "happy ending" here? But that's basically what we get. Relationships get mended. All of them practically. Anyway, in order to get the 630 bucks they have to hit the road. And that's what this is: a road movie. After all, it's "on the road" that all the other interesting characters can be introduced. Though not many of them are what you would call "likeable". And Elle is downright misanthropic. On the surface as it were. Oh, and it's "on the road" that all the skeletons are rattled and all the secrets are dug up. Only this particular road trip is measured in hours, not days. Look for the generation gaps. And they're huge. IMDb The car that Elle (Lily Tomlin) and Sage (Julia Garner) drive in for much of the movie is a 1955 Dodge Royal that is actually owned by Lily Tomlin. Tomlin told USA Today that she bought it in 1975 for$1,500. She said, "It's not a prize car. It's not a car that people yearn for. But it has a nice look to it. . . . The car is almost a character in the movie. I knew I kept that car for a reason."

The film's budget was $600,000. Paul Weitz wrote the role specifically for Lily Tomlin. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandma_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/XspFo3jiVR87 GRANDMA [2015] Written and directed by Paul Weitz Title card: "Time passes. That's for sure." Eileen Myles ... Olivia: You know I love you, but I can't do this anymore. You're never there for me. You're a terrible girlfriend. But...you're a wonderful poet. Elle: I'm not a wonderful poet, I'm an academic. An unemployed one. Olivia: You should send your new poems to your editor. Elle: She's got dementia. She might actually like them. ... Olivia: I thought love conquered everything? Elle: No. Love does not conquer everything. Four months, Olivia. Four fucking months we've been together. Try 38 years. Try being with someone for 38 years. You're a footnote. Olivia: A "footnote"? That's a really horrible thing to say. Elle: Yes, well, I'm a horrible person. ... Sage: I need$600, 630.
Elle: For what?
Sage: Um... I'm pregnant.
Elle: Okay.
Sage: I don't want to have a baby. I want to get an abortion. And I'm broke. I only have $18. Is that terrible? Elle: Well, it's nothing to dance a jig about. ... Sage: What am I gonna do? Elle: Well, you already said what you're gonna do, right? I mean, you've put some thought into it. Haven't you? Because this is something that you will probably think about at some moment, every day for the rest of your life. ... Elle: Where can you get a reasonably priced abortion these days? ... Coffee shop owner: I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to ask you to leave now. You're disturbing the customers. Elle: I'm a customer. Do you know what a customer is? Coffee shop owner: I know what a customer is. Elle: A customer is someone who pays for your services. So I am a customer. I mean, what other customers are we disturbing? [she looks over towards a man and a woman] Elle: Oh, them? Ozzie and Harriet? Coffee shop owner: Yes. You're disturbing them. Elle: No, we're disturbing you. Isn't that right? Coffee shop owner: Yes, you are also disturbing me. Elle: Because, what, I'm talking about abortions? Do you know this coffee shop used to be an abortion clinic? Where you're standing right now there were thousands of unintended pregnancies terminated. ... Elle: Why didn't you use a condom? Or, for humanity's sake, get a vasectomy? Cam: What? What did she just say? Sage: She didn't say anything, okay? Cam: Look, she said it wasn't her time. Elle: Her time? What are you, a moron? What, are you both morons? Don't they teach kids sex ed anymore?! ... Sage: Mom's right, you're crazy! Elle: Because I rapped that little shit across the knuckles? What's he gonna say? "Sage's grandma beat me up"? Actually, she hit him in the balls with a hockey stick. Elle [to Sage]: You need to be able to say 'screw you' sometimes. ... Sage: What is this? Elle: What is The Feminine Mystique? You're asking me what is The Feminine Mystique? Sage: Mystique's a character in X-Men. Elle: What? The Feminine Mystique, by Betty Friedan. You know in The Wizard of Oz, when the curtain gets pulled back and everyone sees that the Wizard is a fake? Because Toto the dog pulled back the curtain. Well, Betty was like Toto. ... Elle [holding a book]: Look at this, Simone de Beauvoir, The Prime of Life. Her autobiography. Dare I ask if you know who Simone de Beauvoir is? Sage: No. I have no idea. Guess I'm an idiot. Elle: Guess you are. ... Sage: Why'd Olivia call you "writer-in-residence"? Elle: She's calling me a sellout because that's how I used to make a living. You go someplace, a private college, usually because that's where they have the money. You do a few readings, teach a few seminars then you leave, because you don't have tenure. Sage: But how is that selling out? Elle: Oh, because I wasn't suffering for my art. ... Karl: Are you're sure you're not here to say you're sorry? To apologize to me? Finally? Elle: You've got 11 grandkids. And you can't let go of old shit? Karl: I find that as I grow older, old shit just bubbles up. It bubbles up out of the tar. Don't you find that to be the case? ... Karl: So, what's it for? What's the money really for? Elle: I told you, it's for rent. Karl: Yeah, you told me that, but you're a shitty liar. So, what's it for? Sage: Um, I... Elle: She needs to terminate a pregnancy and she's gonna have an abortion. Karl [abruptly]: No. No fucking way. Elle: Karl... Karl: Are you out of your mind? Are you out of your goddamn mind? Elle: Come on, Karl. Karl: Go to hell. ... Elle: You know what we have to do, right? Sage: Yeah. ... Judy [Sage's mom, Elle's daughter]: Please don't tell me that you are fucking pregnant. Sage: Oh, my God. Elle: She's pregnant. Judy: Goddamn it! Goddamn it! I should fucking...You asshole! I should fucking kill you, you know that? What happened to the box of condoms that I bought you? Huh? Did you eat them? There were a hundred condoms in that box! ... Judy: What about all those condoms? Hm? Sage: We used them. Judy: Oh, you and the rodent? Sage: Yes. Judy: Well, you know what? You can get more. I didn't hand-make them. I didn't knit them. ... Sage: Am I gonna go to hell? Elle: What? Sage: Am I gonna go to hell? What if it's true? Elle: What are you talking about? Along with all the millions of other women who've had abortions? Sage: Yeah. Along with them. Elle: I don't believe in a vengeful God. When you're dead, you're dead. It's blackness. End of story. Void. Get used to it. ... Elle [spotting an abortion clinic protester]: Uh-oh. Just keep walking. Protester: Don't kill your baby. Elle: Just ignore her. Protester: Your baby has fingernails. Elle: Not until 22 weeks, genius. Protester: Baby-killing slut! If you go in there, God will send you to hell! ... Abortion clinic receptionist: What happened to you? Elle: Listen, I got slugged by the bad seed out there. It's nothing. I'm fine. ... Elle: You gonna do a D and C? Doctor: We don't do curettage at this stage of pregnancy. Not at this clinic. Elle: What do you do? Doctor: We do vacuum aspiration. It's less traumatic to the uterus. Elle: Guess it's not the Dark Ages anymore. Doctor: No. ... Francesca: How come you stopped writing? Elle: People stopped reading. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Imagine how hard it must be to entertain folks as a comedian when so much of your "personal life" is in the toilet. Neil's for example. He is [of course] estranged from his daughter. And his "comeback" performances all unfold in [of course] the Mojave Desert. In fact in between his routines we are treated to all manner of Mojave Desert tours. Fascinating stuff. You'll wonder: Do these things actually happen? And the jokes? Well, here's one that's typical: Why don't rapists eat at T.G.I. Friday's? Well, it's hard to rape with a stomachache. So, will he reconcile with his daughter? Will he finally get that Hollywood career? Will anyone give a fuck? Should anyone give a fuck? What we explore here in turn is the meaning of the word "entertainment" in this day and age. In other words, like most things, it can mean practically anything. And how far removed is that from having no meaning at all. Bottom line: Are you a misanthrope? You'll love it. Are you at home in an truly surreal world? This one's for you. This is also one of those films that was generally applauded by the critics [80% fresh on 40 reviews at RT] but largely panned by the general public [5.7 rating at IMDb] Oh, and this guy looks exactly like you would expect him to look. You know, whatever that means. Enjoy the, uh, jokes.... IMDb Gregg Turkington plays a version of his stage persona, Neil Hamburger. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entertainment_(2015_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/GUwV46HCow4 ENTERTAINMENT [2015] Written in part and directed by Rick Alverson Neil [in front of prisoners]: What's the difference...what's the difference between Courtney Love and the American flag? It would be wrong to urinate on the American flag. ... Neil: What do you get, what do you get when you cross Sir Elton John with a saber tooth tiger? I don't know, but you better keep it away from your ass! ... Neil [leaving a message on his daughter's phone]: Hi, sweetheart. It's Daddy. I'm in the desert, and it's beautiful. It's hot, but, but it's beautiful. And, um, today I took a tour of an airplane graveyard they have out here, and they got every plane you can think of: 737, 747, jumbo jets. And you just walk right into the planes. And, um... I, uh, I will talk to you again soon. Good night. ... Neil [at a bar]: Why did Madonna feed her infant baby Alpo brand dog food? Well, she had no choice, that's just what came out of her breasts. ... Neil: Why did Carrot Top, legendary Carrot Top, refuse, absolutely refuse the pleading requests of the topless Playboy playmate who was naked in the jacuzzi with him? Because she was begging him to shoot himself in the head. [no one responds] Neil: I'm just trying to earn a living here. Come on, people, these are...These are great jokes. We traveled a long distance carrying these jokes in order to bring them here and thrust them into your fool faces. So sit there and paste a smile on your face and have some fun. [no response] Neil: That's what it's all about, folks, having fun, forgetting your problems. And you have a lot of problems, I can tell. Forget 'em just for a few moments and just laugh with me. ... John [to Neil]: All right, cuz. Hey. It's been great havin' ya here. It's just good to have you back in my life. Sorry it's been so long. You're a good boy, you try your best, you do this weird show, but it doesn't matter because you're trying, you're getting yourself out there and you're trying to tell jokes that make people happy, that's what's important, just keep doing it. ... Neil [leaving a message on his daughter's phone]: Hi, sweetheart. Um, it was a long, long day. Do you believe in God? ... Neil [on stage]: During his long, legendary broadcasting career, what was the number one question most often asked by Larry King? "Should I be concerned about blood in my diarrhea?" What was Elvis Presley's worst ever release? The ejaculation containing Lisa Marie. What's the worst thing, the worst thing about being gang raped by Crosby, Stills and Nash? No Young. And [gasp!] no reaction from the "crowd". Just incredulity. Then a young woman makes a remark. Neil: Why don't you shut your mouth, little lady? We're trying to do a show here. Woman: For real? Neil: Yeah, for real, huh? Just shut up so I can do the jokes and we can all get out of here, huh? On the outside of the building it didn't say that we were in hell, and then the few moments after when the stink from your syphilis breath, it started wafting over all the gentlemen and ladies who have come out for the show tonight, excluding yourself, of course. The minute that the waft of stench, huh, from the herpes and the syphilis and the lice that you eat, huh, the minute that started coming... [the woman throws her beer -- mug and all -- at him] Neil: You little whore. What makes you think you can come here and throw a drink at someone who's traveled a great distance to bring laughs to this community, huh? What the hell's wrong with you? Mental... Mental illness, huh? Mental... Oh, I guess you didn't throw the drink, though. She slipped and the drink fell. She slipped on all the semen gushing out of her ass when she stood up, huh?Surprised you didn't break your chin on the fall, and then get the semen into the infected cut. But you have plenty of infected cuts already. The little whore's having a tantrum. She's having a tantrum. Oh no, she heard a joke she didn't like. So now she's gonna cry like a little baby and throw her poo-poo around. Get the hell out of here, garbage woman, huh! You little whore. You little whore. [the woman stalks off] Neil: That took the wind out of my sails, I'll tell ya. Because that's unacceptable behavior. When someone travels this great distance to bring these jokes for you people, to bring some joy into your lives, and I'm literally plucking jokes out of my heart and thrusting them into your fool faces. And to have somebody do something like that, really stinks up the evening, wouldn't you agree? The audience is simply...stunned. Neil [after the "whore" attacks him in the parking lot]: Why don't they take some of the money from the drinks and use it to buy some security guards so that we're protected from weirdoes. You can't have a fucking nightclub with no security. You can't have people drinking their fucking brains out and then you're stuck there in the firing line of these cocksuckers and meth freak-o drug assholes. Eddie: Why don't you get some rest? Neil: Fuck that. Fuck you. Next up: a sequence of events you've got to see to believe. Culminating in an ending that you are seeing and still don't believe. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film It's the wild, wild west. And [as we all know] that's the place where folks struggle to fit in somewhere between the rule of law and the law of the jungle. Not quite civilized and not quite not. And, when you're a couple of bounty hunter hell bent on bringing all the particularly uncivilized scondrels to justice [for, among other things, the reward money] things can become particularly problematic. Welcome to Minnie's Haberdashery. Or, rather, to Quentin Tarantino's rendition of it. So we know it's not going to be your ordinary haberdashery. Then there's this part: The Hateful Eight (2015), according to Quentin Tarantino, was his metaphoric way of breaking down his feelings about The Thing (1982), i.e. the way he felt watching it for the first time in a movie theater. The Thing was the only film that Quentin Tarantino showed to the cast. This is one of those films that invite us to speculate about how folks behaved back then and how they behave now. Some things change, some things don't. Then we can bring the discussion around to one or another sociological trope or one or another political conflict. Then choose sides. And then wax philosophical about the difference between, say, civilized and uncivilized justice. The part about "the law" and such. And that brings us around to the Right Makes Might folks vs. the folks who champion democracy and the rule of law instead. That's basically where we are historically here in America. Heading in the general direction of a more civilized democracy. Only some will never accomodate themselves to that. Not then, not now. Or, sure, we can just refight the Civil War. Race after all is everywhere here. Look for lots and lots and lots of snow. Even inside the haberdashery it is snowing. It might mean something, it might mean nothing at all. Note: There is language and dialogue here that some might find offensive. IMDb According to the script, this film's plot heavily references many important historic realities that occurred in the years following the Civil War, including tension and rivalry between Union and Confederate veterans, the attitude over abolishing slavery and granting blacks equal rights and the economic struggles of the southern states and the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. With three words ("The Hateful Eight") this is the longest title for a film directed by Quentin Tarantino. All the titles of his previous films only consisted of two words (i.e. Reservoir Dogs (1992), Pulp Fiction (1994), Jackie Brown (1997), Death Proof (2007), Inglourious Basterds (2009), Django Unchained (2012), and Kill Bill: Vol. 1/2 (2003). After the script leaked online, Quentin Tarantino did not want to make the film. But after they did a brief reading of the script in L.A. the cast were stunned and got excited for the film and with Samuel L. Jackson persuading him to do this film, Tarantino accepted. In the roadshow version, the word "nigger" is used sixty-five times, which is a little over half the use in Quentin Tarantino's previous film Django Unchained (2012), which is said to hold the record for the movie with the most uses of the "n word." FAQ at IMDb: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3460252/faq?ref_=tt_faq_sm at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hateful_Eight trailer: https://youtu.be/6_UI1GzaWv0 THE HATEFUL EIGHT (2015) Written and directed by Quentin Tarantino Marquis [a bounty hunter looking up as a stagecoach comes to a halt]: Got room for one more? ... John [a bounty hunter]: So why don't you explain to me what an African bounty hunter's doin' wanderin' around in the snow in the middle of Wyoming. Marquis: I'm tryin' to get a coupla' of bounty's to Red Rock. John: So you still in business? Marquis: You know I am. ... John: Major Marquis Warren, this here is Daisy Domergue. Domergue, to you, this is Maj. Warren. Daisy: Howdy nigger! John: She's a pepper, ain't she? Now girl, don't you know darkee's don't like bein' called niggers no more. They find it offensive. Daisy: I been called worse. John: Now that I can believe. ... Marquis: So you takin' her into Red Rock to hang? John: You bet. Marquis: Gonna' wait to watch it? John: You know I am. I wanna' hear her neck snap with my own two ears. You never wait to watch 'em hang? Marquis: My bounties never hang, cause I never bring 'em in alive. John: Never? Marquis: Never ever. We talked about this in Chattanooga. Bringing desperate men in alive, is a good way to get yourself dead. John: Can't catch me sleepin' if I don't close my eyes. Marquis: I don't wanna' work that hard. John: No one said the job was suppose to be easy. Marquis: No one said it was suppose to be that hard, neither. ... Marquis: When the handbill says Dead or Alive, the rest of us shoot ya' in the back from up on top of a perch somewhere, bring ya' in dead over a saddle. But when John Ruth the hangman catches ya', you don't die by a bullet in the back. When The Hangman catches you...you hang. Daisy: You overrate 'em nigger. I'll give you he got guts. But in the brains department, he's like a man who took a high dive in a low well. [John belts her hard in the face] John: Now Daisy, I want us to work out a signal system of communication. When I elbow you real hard in the face that means, "Shut up". ... Chris [sheriff]: You're takin' in three dead bodies and her into Red Rock to get paid, ain't ya? John: Yeah. Chris [grinning]: Well, the man in Red Rock's supposed to pay you is me, the new sheriff! So if ya'll wanna get paid, ya'll need to get me to Red Rock! ... Chris: You ain't never heard of Wellenbeck prisoner of war camp, West Virginia? John: No Reb, I ain't never heard of it! You bust out? Chris: Major Marquis did more than bust out. Major Marquis had a bright idea. So bright you got to wonder, why nobody never thought about it before. Tell John Ruth about your bright idea. Marquis: Well the whole damn place was just made out of kindling. So I burnt it down. ... Chris: ...once they started pullin' out all the burnt bodies at Wellenbeck, seems not all of them boys were Rebs. You burnt up some of your own boys, didn't ya' Major? How many burnt prisoners they end up findin'? Wasn't the final Yankee death count somethin' like thirty-seven? Marquis: That's the thing about war Mannix, people die. Chris: So ya' chalkin' it up to "War Is Hell", ha? Well admittedly that's a hard argument to argue with. But if memory serves, your side didn't look at it that way. I think they thought, thirty-seven white men for one nigger wasn't so hot a trade. I belive they accused you of being a kill crazy nigger who only joined the war to kill white folks and the whole Blue and Grey of it all didn't really much matter to ya'. And that's why they drummed your black ass outta' the Cavalry with a yellow stripe down your back. ... Chris [to Marquis]: You sure killed yourself your share of redskins in your day, didn't ya' Black Major? Cavalry tends to look kindly on that. ... Chris: We weren't foreign barbarians pounding on the city walls. We were your brothers. We deserved dignity in defeat. Marquis: Just how many nigger towns did y'all sack in your fight for dignity in defeat? Chris: My faire share, Black Major. 'Cuz when niggers are scared, that's when white folks are safe. Marquis [putting the gun to Chris's head]: You gonna talk that hateful nigger talk, you ride up top wtih O.B. Chris: No no no no no. You got me talkin' politics I didn't wanna'. Like I said y'all, I'm just happy to be alive. ... John: What's your name, buster? Oswaldo [smiling]: Well, it most certainly isn't Buster. ... Oswaldo [a hangman]: Now, you're wanted for murder. For the sake of my analogy, let's just assume that you did it. John Ruth wants to take you back to Red Rock to stand trail for murder. And, if you're found guilty, the people of Red Rock will hang you in the town square. And as the hangman, I will perform the execution. And if all those things end up taking place, that's what civilized society calls "justice". However, if the relatives and the loved ones of the person you murdered were outside that door right now. And after busting down that door, they drug you out in the snow and hung you up by the neck, that, we would be frontier justice. Now the good part about frontier justice is it's very thirst quenching. The bad part is it's apt to be Wrong as Right. But ultimately what's the real difference between the two? The real difference is me the Hangman. To me, it dosen't matter what you did. When I hang you, I will get no satisfaction from your death. It's my job. I hang you in red Rock, I move on to the next town, I hang someone else there. The man who pulls the lever, that breaks your neck will be a dispassionate man. And that dispassion is the very essence of justice. For justice delivered without dispassion, is always in danger of not being justice. ... Oswaldo: Who's the chap with the Lincoln letter? Chris: The Lincoln what? The letter from Abraham Lincoln? President Abraham Lincoln? Oswaldo: Weren't you pen pals? Chris: With the President? Oswaldo: I'm sorry, I heard somebody in your party had a letter from Abraham Lincoln, I assumed it was you. John: Not him! The black fella' in the stable. Oswaldo: The nigger in the stable has a letter from Abraham Lincoln?! John: Yeah. Chris: The nigger in the stable has a letter from Abraham Lincoln?! ... Chris: May I sit down, sir? Sandy [confederate general]: According to the Yankees, it's a free country. ... Oswaldo: Gentlemen, gentlemen, I know Americans aren't apt to let a little thing like an unconditional surrender get in the way of a good war. But I strongly suggest we don't restage The Battle of Baton Rouge, during a blizzard in Minnie's Haberdashery. ... John: Yeah, Warren, that's the problem with old men. You can kick 'em down the stairs, and say it's an accident, but you can't just shoot 'em. ... John: As long as the bar's Philadelphia I agree. ... Joe: A bastard's work is never done huh, John Ruth? ... Chris: Look, considerin' all the thing I done for money, I ain't one to judge. But don't you feel just the least little bad 'bout hangin' a woman? Oswaldo: Till they invent a trigger a woman can't pull, if you're a hang man, you're going to hang woman. ... Chris: John Ruth, I hate to be the one to break it to ya' but nobody in Minnie's Haberdashery, had ever corresponded with Abraham Lincoln, Least of all, that nigger there. John: Was all that horseshit? Marquis: Course it was. John: Well I guess it's true what they say about you people. You can't trust a fuckin' word that comes outta' your mouth. Marquis: What's the matter, John Ruth? I hurt your feelings? John: As a matter of fact, you did. Martquis: I know, I'm the only black son of a bitch you ever met, so I'm gonna' cut you some slack. But you got no idea, what it's like being a black man facin' down America. The only time black folks are safe, is when white folks is disarmed. And this letter, had the desired effect of disarming white folks. John: Call it what you want, I call it a dirty fuckin' trick. Marquis: You wanna' know why I'd lie about something like that, white man? Got me on that stagecoach, didn't it? ... Marquis: Now don't judge your boy too harshly, General. You ain't never been cold as your boy was that day. You'd be surprised what a man that cold, would do for a blanket. Wanna know what your boy did? I took my big, black, pecker outta' my pants. And I made him crawl through the snow on all fours over to it. Then I grabbed a hand full of that black hair on the back his head. Then I stuck my big, black Johnson right down his goddamn throat. And it was fulla' blood, so it was warm. You bet your sweet ass it was warm. And Chester Charles Smithers, sucked on that warm black dingus for long as he could. ... Narrator: About fifteen minutes have passed since we last left our characters. Joe Gage volunteered to take Smithers' dead body outside. Straws were drawn to see who'd help him. O.B. lost. Chris, John Ruth and Oswaldo had a vigorous debate about the legality of the self-defense murder that just transpired. Major Marquis Warren, who was supremely confident about the legality of what just transpired ignored them, sat by himself at the table and drank brandy. Captain Chris Mannix donned the dead General's coat and joined Oswaldo in lighting the candles and lanterns. John Ruth held the door closed while waiting for Joe Gage and O.B. To return. Bob enjoyed a Manzana Roja. Domergue, however, hasn't moved from her spot at the community dinner table since John Ruth uncuffed her. Let's go back a bit. Fifteen minutes ago, Major Warren shot General Smithers in front of everybody. But, about forty seconds before that, something equally important happened...but not everybody saw it. While Major Warren was captivating the crowd with tales of Black Dicks in White Mouths, Somebody poisoned the coffee. And the only one to see him do it, was Domergue. That's why this chapter is called, "DOMERGUE's GOT A SECRET". ... Daisy [to John who just realized the coffee was poisoned]: When you get to hell, John, tell 'em Daisy sent ya'... ... Marquis: My theory Senor Bob is you're working with the man who poisoned the coffee. And both of you murdered Minnie and Sweet Dave, and anybody else might'a picked the wrong day to visit the Haberdashery this morning. And your intention was, at some point, ambush John Ruth and free Daisy. But you didn't expect the blizzard, and you didn't expect the two of us. [indicating Chris Mannix and himself] Marquis: That's as far as I got. How am I doin'? Bob: You're a real imaginative nigger, ain't you? So do you intend to murder me based on a far-fetched nigger theory, or can you prove it, cabron? Marquis: It ain't so far fetched, Senior Bob. And it's a little bit more then my theory. ... Marquis: How long you say you been working for Minnie's? Bob: Four months. Marquis: If you would have been here two and half years ago you'd know about the sign usta' hang above the bar. Minnie mentioned that to you? Bob: No. Marquis: You know what that sign said, Senior Bob? "No dogs or Mexicans allowed" Minnie hung that sign up the day she opened this Habadashery. And it hung over that bar every day till she took down, a little over two years ago. You know why she took it down? She started lettin' in dogs. Cue the first stagecoach... Minnie: Sweet Dave. Sweet Dave: What? Minnie: Ask me if my ass is fat! Sweet Dave: It is. Minnie: I said ask me. Sweet Dave: Why? Minnie: Just do it! Sweet Dave: Is your ass fat? Minnie: Oui. Look at that y'all, I can speak French. ... Jody: Well old man, if you was a cat what just happened here would count as one of your nine lives. You realize how close you came to being tossed on a pile of niggers? Sandy: Yes. Jody: And when it comes to that pile of niggers we building out back, won't take nothin' to make you General of it. You believe that? Sandy: I expect no less. ... Jody: Now do you have any reason why you would want to interfere with me saving my sister from a hangman's rope? Sandy: No. Jody: You don't? Sandy: No I don't. Jody: You sure you don't? I mean we did just kill Minnie and Sweet Dave. And you and Sweet Dave looked mighty chummy over there. Sandy:: I just met these people, I don't give a damn about them! Or you, or your sister. Or any other son of a bitch in Wyoming for that matter. Jody: That is a good answer, old man. ... Narrator: During the next four hours, Jody and the boys chuck the bodies down the well. Put away the horses. Tidied around Minnie's. Stash weapons for further use. And waited for John Ruth and Daisy's Stage to arrive. ... Daisy: Chris I'm tellin' you, you ain't done anything yet, we can't forgive. So let's make a deal? Marquis: No deals, bitch! Daisy: You gonna' let that nigger speak for you, Chris? Chris: Hold it Warren. Seein' as she ain't got nothin' to sell, I'm kinda curious about her sales pitch, humor me. ... Chris [to Daisy]: So, you were sayin'... ... Marquis [about Daisy as she's laying on the floor]: No, don't shoot her! Chris: Why the hell not? Marquis: John Ruth...Now, John Ruth was one mighty, mighty bastard. But the last thang that bastard did before he died was save your life. We gonna die, white boy. We ain't got no say in that. There is one thang left we have to say here; and that's how we kill this bitch. I say shootin's too good for her. John Ruth could'a shot her any where, any time along the way, but John Ruth was "The Hangman," and when "The Hangman" catches you, you don't die by no bullet. When the The Hangman catches you you hang. Chris [quoting John]: "You only need to hang Mean Bastards. But Mean Bastards, you need to hang". He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film This one is all about the gap between the identity that we assume and the identity that can come crashing down on us when all that we assume is nothing at all as it actually is. Anna is an orphan. She is raised by nuns in a Catholic convent. She is on the road to become one of them herself. And then she is told that she is a Jew. Now, given the manner in which I construe these things that would mean very little. Catholic, Jew, Protestant, Moslem, Hindu, whatever. It is merely a frame of mind that is imposed on children at a particular time and in a particular place. But few are like me. For others, such news can come to have considerable consequences. And this revolves by and large around the need that many have to anchor their identity to something that is more than just an existential contraption. "I" must be rooted to/in necessity. You do what you do because it is in sync with what you must do on this side of the grave in order to achieve immortality and salvation on the other side of it. Here though that is all basically on the surface. You can have others impose an identity on you. And then you can come to impose one on yourself. And this is Poland. 1962. So there's the part played by Communism. And before that the part played by Fascism. The part where you render [as you must] unto the State. Or [for some] the part where you try to accomodate both: God and Caesar. It's all surreal: Anna can go forward into the future as a Roman Catholic nun. Or she can go back into the past as a Jew -- as Ida -- and connect the dots between the past, the present and the future so as to change everything. For the better? For the worst? Like there is actually something that can come to reflect the Right Answer here. This movie won the Academy Award for Best Foreign Film in 2014. IMDb Pawel Pawlikowski had such difficulty finding an actress to play the titular character that he asked his friends to take secret photographs if they saw anyone who was in the right ballpark of the character. One of his friends, director Malgorzata Szumowska, saw Agata Trzebuchowska in a Warsaw café, took the picture and persuaded her to audition. Near the end of the film, in the scene where Wanda lays out photos of deceased relatives, the photo third row down, far left, is that of Irena Sendlerowa, a nurse and social worker who led a secret operation that saved the lives of 2,500 children by smuggling them out of the Warsaw ghetto during WW2. Despite playing a woman on the cusp of becoming a nun, actress Agata Trzebuchowska is an atheist. A very pretty atheist though. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_(film) Trailer: https://youtu.be/oXhCaVqB0x0 IDA [2013] Written in part and directed by Pawel Pawlikowski Mother Superior: Her name is Wanda Gruz. She is your aunt. We wrote to her many times asking her to take you. But she never did. Anna: Maybe she never got the letters? Mother Superior: She did. Because finally she replied that she couldn't come. You should meet her before you take your vows. She is your only living relative. Anna: Do I have to, Mother? Mother Superior: Yes, Anna. You will go to see her and stay there for as long as necessary. As necessary for what? And there's the crux of it. Existentially, the snowball starts to roll down the hill. Wanda: What did they tell you about me? Anna: That you are my aunt. Wanda: That's all? They didn't tell you who I am? What I do? Anna: No. ... Wanda: So you are a Jewish nun. Anna: Who? Wanda: You're a Jew. They never told you? Your real name is Ida Lebenstein. You're the daughter of Haim Lebenstein and Roza Herc. You were born in Piaski, near Lomza. ... Anna: I'm going to Piaski tomorrow. I want to visit their graves. Wanda: Your parents have no graves. Neither they, nor any other Jews. No one knows where their bodies are...Maybe in the woods or in the lake. Anna: I'll ask around. Wanda: What if you go there and discover there is no God? [Anna turns to look at her but says nothing]: Wanda: God is everywhere, I know. ... Wanda: Do you have sinful thoughts sometimes? Anna: Yes. Wanda: About carnal love? Anna: No. Wanda: That's a shame. You should try, otherwise what sort of sacrifice are these vows of yours? ... Wanda: Did you know the Lebensteins? They lived here before the war. Bartender: Jews? Wanda: No, Eskimos. ... Wanda: Our family used to live in this house. Feliks: No Jews ever lived here. Wanda: I didn't say they were Jews. Feliks: It's my house and my land. Wanda: We both know who it belonged to. ... Anna: Who are you? Wanda: Nobody these days. But I used to be a state prosecutor once. Big public trials. I even sent a few people to death. Anna: Who? Wanda: Enemies of the People. This was in the early fifties. Red Wanda - that's me. Gone with the wind. ... Wanda [showing Anna two dresses]: Which one do you want? Anna: Neither. Wanda: Come on, you won't stop being a nun. Your Jesus didn't hide in a cave with books but went out into the world. Anna: I'm not going anywhere. Wanda: What? Anna: I'm not going anywhere. Wanda: Fine, I'll go out and have fun on my own. ... Anna: I thought we were here because of my parents. Wanda: We are. I loved your mother very much. You are so similar. I won't let you waste your life. [Anna refuses to respond] Wanda: Of course...I'm a slut and you're a little saint. ... Wanda: This Jesus of yours adored people like me. Take Mary Magdalen... [Wanda picks up the Bible] Wanda: Let's read... [Anna wrestles the Bible from her] ... Wanda: Remember me? You knew the Lebensteins during the war. We'd like to know where they're buried. Anna: I'm their daughter. Szymon : Roza... Anna: I'm Ida. Szymon: They were...good people...I hid them in the woods...fed them... Wanda: And then you killed them. Was he very scared? Szymon: Who? Wanda: The boy. How did you do it? With an axe? ... Wanda [to Anna]: I left my son with Roza...and went to fight...for God knows what. ... Feliks [to Anna]: Leave my father alone, let him die in peace. Nobody can prove anything anyway. What happened, happened. Anna: What do you want? Feliks: You give up claims to the house and I'll show you where they're buried...and you leave us in peace. Deal? Anna: Yes. ... Lis: What now? You're going back to the institution? Anna: You mean the convent? Yes. Lis: For long? Anna: Forever. I'm taking my vows next week. And you? Lis: I'm mainly trying to avoid the army. And vows too. [pause] Lis: You've no idea of the effect you have, do you? ... Anna: And me? Why am I not here in this grave? Feliks: You were tiny...No one would know you were Jewish. I took you to the priest and left you there. The boy was dark and circumcised. ... Feliks [to Anna]: It wasn't father...I killed them. ... Wanda [regarding the skulls that they have taken from the grave]: We'll go to Lublin. We have a family grave there. If that graveyard still exists. Anna: We should find a priest. Wanda: You mean a rabbi. ... Anna [back at the convent]: Will you come to my vows? Wanda: No, but I'll drink to your health. ... Anna [to a statue of Jesus at the convent]: I'm not ready. Forgive me. ... Government official [at the burial of Wanda after she jumped to her death]: Comrade Wanda Gruz contributed greatly to the creation of a new Poland tenaciously exercising People's justice. She was a faithful handmaiden against anti-siocialism in the Polish nation. Farewell comrade...you'll live forever in our memory. ... Lis: What are you thinking about? Anna: I'm not thinking. Lis: We're off to Gdask to do some gigs. Wanna come? Ever been to the seaside? Anna: I haven't been anywhere. Lis: Come along then. You'll listen to us play, we'll walk on the beach. Anna: And then? Lis: Then we'll buy a dog...get married, have children...get a house. Anna: And then? Lis: The usual. Life. On the contrary...it's back to God. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film This just in... http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/ ... _week.html "… several thousand immigrants live in and around Rosarno while helping with the harvest of oranges and clementines…On the Gioia Tauro plain which encompasses Rosarno, they are collected each morning by overseers and driven into citrus groves for work that can last from dawn to dusk…"They earn €25 a day", said Father Ennio Stamile of the Roman Catholic charity Caritas. 'They have to send money to their countries to maintain their families and also live here. Not much is left for them. The economic crisis has exacerbated their situation…On the plain, there are about 2,000 African immigrants who sleep the night crowded together in a former paper mill and another large building, said Monsignor Pino de Masi, the vicar-general of the Oppido-Palmi diocese. 'If anyone from central government were to see the conditions in which they live, without sanitation, electricity, water or heating, they would not be surprised by what has happened.' " The Guardian, John Hooper 1/2/2010 This film basically revolves around this. To be an immigrant in Europe these days is to be a political football. And this is a film that explores this reality from a distinctly liberal/left political perspective. That it happens to be a reflection of my own political prejudices is then more or less important. Depending of course on your own bias. What's important though is to recognize the obvious: that what motivates the overwhelming majority of folks who make this at times perilous journey is that they want to make their lives and the lives of their families better. In other words, even for those who are opposed to their presence in their own nation, they would almost certainly be doing exactly the same thing themselves if they were in the shoes of the immigrants. And this particular life and death struggle is based on the actual experiences of this man: Koudous Seihon. Is it typical? Well, once again, political prejudices will be aired. More or less making that irrelevant. And [as always] there is the racial factor. These are folks of color entering a nation that is predominantly white. And there are any number of citizens who are hell-bent on keeping it that way. And any number of politicians [think Trump] who aim to take advantage of it. Just as there are any number of businessmen who aim to take advantage of this cheap -- very cheap -- labor. And long before they even reach Europe they have to contend with all of those among them who are only in it for themselves. The grifters, the thieves, the bandits, the moneymen. A grimly dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest world if there ever was one. An ordeal? You tell me. Still, the bulk of the film focuses more on the experience of living in a community of European immigrants -- the good, the bad, the ugly. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranea_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/HHf_2_k-v0w MEDITERRANEA [2015] Written and directed by Jonas Carpignano Ayiva [on the phone to his family]: Take this money for now. It should help. Try to spend it slowly. Hopefully things will get better the further along we get. It's so you can manage, for now. Right now, it's tough, but it'll get better. That's what this is all about for him and his loved ones: survival. Man [who -- for a price -- arranges the trips from Algeria to Libya to Italy]: Ayiva. Come here. Here's your money. [Ayiva starts to count it] Man: Don't count it in front of me. We don't count money here. ... Ayiva [on the phone to his sister Aseta]: Listen to me. It's more dangerous than you think. I'm telling you, you can't do it. I'm telling you, it's too dangerous. You don't know what I saw. It's too dangerous for you and Zeina. I just got here. As soon as I make some money, I will send it to you. ... Ayiva: Let's go. Hey, Abas. Abas: I don't want to go. Let's do this, and we'll come back. Mades: It's very important. Hmm? Abas: I know it's important, but I don't want to go! ... Ayiva: What's wrong? Hmm? What is it? Abas [motioning toward their squallid living conditions]: Look around... Ayiva: So? What do you want to do? You want us to go back? The others made it here. Just give it some time. ... Orchard owner: How many times do I have to tell you! Eh? You fucking Africans! Because I hire you for a job, and you can't even do it. I'm not paying for these cases. You understand? Ayiva: I understand, but it's his first day. Orchard owner: I don't care. That's your problem, not mine. ... Ayiva: Come! Let's finish thisand go home. Abas: I don't understand you. This guy is a fucking asshole, and you wanna work twice as hard? For this shit job'? Ayiva: You think you know better than me? You were there earlier. You saw everything, right? So what don't you understand? Abas: I already have my money. Ayiva: Stop acting like a child. Man up. Do this, and we leave. It's a small job, and we're off. Abas: You don't look like a man. You look like his bitch. ... Pia [handing Ayiva a box with headphones]: You like the color? Ayiva: It's perfect for my daughter. Pia: Can I ask you something? Tell me. Is your daughter black? Ayiva: Yes. Pia: Where is she? Ayiva: Africa. Pia: Africa? Ayiva: Yes. Pia: That's too far. Ayiva: Yeah. ... Ayiva: Aseta asked me if they could come here. Mades: Come here for what? There's nothing for women to do here. You know how it is. There's no work for women here. You think you'll make a home for them here? You know you'll go back. Ayiva: They want to come here. And it's their choice. I can't do anything. Mades: I'm the one who brought you here. You're here. You know you're with family. I talk but you don't listen. ... Reporter [on TV]: This morning, police evicted African immigrants from the historic center of Rosarno. All this because the local residents wanted the immigrants cleared from their neighborhood. ... Boss: Where are you off to next? Ayiva: I don't know where I'm going. Boss: I can get you another job at Marta's birthday party. Ayiva: Can I ask you something? Can you help me get a work contract so that I can get a residence permit? Boss: I understand you, Ayiva. When my grandfather went to America, he was in New York City. He worked hard, really hard. But he earned almost nothing. He and his family had to take care of each other with his sisters, with his brothers, with his cousins. That's how people should do it: Help one another. ... Cristina [about Abas, who was nearly beaten to death]: If you're looking for something positive, at least there's this: He can get a residence permit on humanitarian grounds. It would last at least a year. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film There's something not quite right with her. Not quite right at all. And that might explain why she pulls into town and keeps being recognized by folks. As though she had been there before. But she knows that she never has been. Or she thinks that she knows that she never has been. It's enough to make you suspect she might be crazy. In other words, this is one of those "psychological thrillers" in which you are not really sure if the protagonist is in fact mad or is just being manipulated by others to believe that she is for their own purpose. Is there a "meaning" here we are meant to grasp or is there really no meaning at all to grasp? And what about that dead body in the trunk? Dany. Prim and proper with her Christian cross necklace and thick glasses. Seemingly innocent and shy. A persona? Young and beautiful. And all the men she comes upon intent basically on one thing. You're thinking: Maybe that's what this is all about: the battle of the sexes? Think of this one as Alfred Hitchcock Presents the Twilight Zone. It's a narrative that could go in any number of directions [and at any time] and you are never really sure if what you are seeing is what is really going on. From the perspective of others, in other words, it might be something entirely different. And that's before we get to the part that might include any possible...psychosis. Above all else, it probes just how many different directions your own life might possibly go in. Especially if others are intent on manipulating you to see things from their own perspective. And In sync with their own ulterior motives. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady_ ... (2015_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/MvZMQ2cDBq0 THE LADY IN THE CAR WITH GLASSES AND A GUN [La Dame Dans L'auto Avec Des Lunettes et un Fusil] 2015 Directed by Joann Sfar Dany [aloud to herself]: I've never seen the sea. I've never seen the sea. I've never seen the sea. ... Dany [to herself in the mirror]: You're just a pathetic secretary as blind as a bat. ... Woman [out of the blue]: Feeling better? I ran after you to give you your coat earlier. Dany: Sorry, I think you've got the wrong person. Woman: No, you had breakfast in my cafe. You left without your coat. Dany: No you are mixing me up with someone else. Woman: No, not at all. I could tell that you were not feeling well. Dany: You're very kind, but I promise you it wasn't me. I was in Paris this morning. ... Dany [aloud to herself]: You're feeling guilty. Trying to scare yourself. Who'll come looking on a bank holiday for some car that hasn't even been stolen? Take the car back Tuesday. Have it cleaned. No one will ever know. No one. ... Man from town: No one followed you into the restroom. We were all here. Who knows what happened, but we'd have seen this guy. Dany: No, he pounced on me. He grabbed me. Man: Did he... Dany [shaking her head]: He crushed my wrist! Service station attendant: That's not true. You had that mark last night. Dany: I wasn't here last night. I was in Paris. Service station attendant: No, you were here at my garage. I don't know what you are playing at. Dany: I was in Paris. Service station attendant: I fixed the car's brake lights. ... Service station attendant [as Dany is about to leave town]: Forgive me, I lost control last night. You're so attractive. Dany: It wasn't me. Service station attendant: So, I apologized. Anyone can make a mistake. Help me out. Shake my hand. My daughter is watching. She is the apple of my eye. [she shakes his hand] ... Dany [talking to herself while driving]: What's wrong? What are you afraid of? That people will think you are crazy? ... Cop: So, Miss Doremus, out again, are we? You got the brake lights fixed. That's good. A short circuit, was it? They're working now. You had them fixed in Paris? [Dany just looks at him dazed] Cop: I'm talking to you. Did you have them fixed in Paris? [Dany shakes her head] Cop: Where? ... Dany [talking to herself while driving]: How does he know my name? He can't know it. I must have given my papers to the doctor. Or I told them my name at the garage. I can't remember. They're all in this together. I know what I did this morning...Your'e passing through a dream, Dany. And it's someone else's dream. Know what? You'll go to this hotel. You'll sleep and take the car back to Paris tomorrow. And everything will get back to normal. One look at this hotel [not to mention its location] tells you that won't happen. Dany: Don't you recognize me? Hotel proprietor: Why? Should I? Next up: Georges disconnects her battery. Georges: It's a trick. Dany: What is? Georges: A trick on you. Dany: You think so? Georges: What else could it be? Don't be afraid. You're being fooled, that's all. ... Dany [talking to herself]: When did things start to go off the tracks? At the service station? Before then even, when that woman spoke about my coat? There has to be a point when it started. ... Little boy: Who's the man in your car? Dany: There isn't a man. Little boy: There is, in the back. Dany: Where? Little boy [pointing toward the trunk]: There. [Dany opens the trunk: a dead man] Little boy: He's asleep. ... Dany [talking to herself while driving]: It's not possible. You didn't see properly. The trunk's empty. Stop! You don't know what you're doing!! I'll go to the police. That's the sensible thing to do. What will you tell them? That you picked up a killer who dumped a corpse in the car that you stole? Want to know the truth, Dany? Yes. It's all in your mind. All in your mind. None of this really exists. It's all in your mind. ... Georges: Who is he? Dany: You tell me that! Georges: Don't play this game! You risk more than I do. Dany: What'll you do? Georges: Did you kill him? Dany: No. Georges: Someone put him in there. It wasn't me. He was dead before I met you. ... Georges: I stole your car to sell to a guy I know here. I may be a thief, and a bastard...but I'm not a killer!! Could your boss be a bit of a killer? Maybe the stiff was already in the car. Dany: The trunk was empty. Georges: You opened it? Dany: Yes, a number of times. ... Georges: Dany, did you kill him with the shotgun? Dany: What shotgun? The one in the trunk. Dany [on phone]: Anita? Anita: Yes? Dany: It's Dany. It's terrible. Really terrible. Anoita: Where on earth are you? Dany: I'm lost. Anita: Dany, what is going on? Dany: I killed someone... Another twist? You bet. Dany [talking aloud]: I know you're there. The woman in the other car. She was injured. That's why you attacked me. So I'd be like her. From the beginning, you made her follow the same road as me. She went everywhere before me, making people believe she was me. No, Dany, that's impossible. No one could have known you'd take that road. Even I didn't know. [she hears someone in the house] Dany: You were supposed to kill me in Paris? Is that it? [Michel comes from behind and grabs her] Michel: You'll spoil everything. ... Michel [on top of Dany, his hand around her throat]: I'm tired. I haven't slept since you left, Dany. Everything's fine. You haven't killed anyone. Dany: You've both lied to me from the beginning. Michel: It's not your fault, Dany. Anita had killed a man. They'd slept together. She had a lot to drink. His name was Kaub. Maurice Kaub. He was blackmailing her with photos he said he's send to me. Apparently, Dany has become part of his elaborate scheme to save them both from prison: Anita becomes Dany. But, again, by now, you simply have no idea what is really true. Michel: You were supposed to take the car back to Paris. Instead, you turned off. Dany: I turned South. I just wanted to see the sea... ... Michel: Do you see...you didn't kill anyone. You didn't kill anyone. Dany: I'm sorry. I only wanted to see the sea, that's all. She's killed someone now. At least we think she has. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film Not at all what one comes to expect from an Alejandro González Iñárritu film. Usually they are filled with a cast of characters [from around the globe] who set into motion a chain of events that explore the manner in which [existentially] we are all basically just six degrees of desparation from each other. In other words, the tiniest of snowflakes falls to earth and, before you know it, it has become part and parcel of this gigantic snowball tumbling pellmell down the slope and wreaking havoc on anything [and everyone] in its path. Or something like that. It's a theme I have always come to look for in his films. And here it may well be present in turn. But set way, way back in time and involving considerably fewer variables. On the other hand we can all relate to this: revenge. It all unfolds in a world that most of us have nary a clue regarding. Back in the days when surviving from day to was, among other things, considerbly more arduous. At least for some men. Sure, there are still a few of them around. But the closest most of us come to them is in the form of...entertainment. To wit: Survival of the fittest in the days when it really meant something. But some will then argue that this sort of behavior is more in tune with what is deemed "natural". That "civilization" is just an illusion -- a trick -- foisted on the strong by the weak in the form of, say, "democracy". Thus we need to scuttle all that liberal/feminist bullshit and go back to the time when men were men. A time when nature reflected the sheer savagery at the heart of human existence. And yet paradoxically this was also a time when honor was most respected. Men were expected to behave in an honorable manner toward each other. Of course the thing about being honorable is that it can work to your advantage or to your disadvantage. And some men are more adept than others at making this work to their own advantage. Then there's this: Tom Hardy watched Tom Berenger in Platoon for inspiration. No, he is Tom Berenger from Platoon here. A remarkable recreation. Bottom line: This may well be the world's record for surviving. IMDb Due to production being behind schedule, the snow melted during the location shoot in Canada before filming was complete. With summer rapidly approaching, there was no choice but to relocate the entire production to southern Argentina, where there were similar wintry conditions. Alejandro G. Iñárritu was insistent that computer-generated imagery not be used to enhance the film, stating, "If we ended up in greenscreen with coffee and everybody having a good time, everybody will be happy, but most likely the film would be a piece of shit." Leonardo DiCaprio chose to devour a raw slab of bison's liver, even though he is vegetarian. He also had to learn to shoot a musket, build a fire, speak two Native American languages (Pawnee and Arikara), and study with a doctor who specializes in ancient healing techniques. DiCaprio calls it the hardest performance of his career. Tom Hardy is known as a "Crew's actor," which caused friction between him and director Alejandro G. Iñárritu, since Iñárritu was extremely belligerent with the shooting crew. Tom Hardy observed this behavior throughout the production and eventually confronted Iñárritu, which resulted in Hardy choking out Iñárritu. Later, the image of Hardy strangling Iñarritu was immortalized in a T-shirt gifted by Hardy to all members of the crew, at the end of the shoot. The legend that Leonardo DiCaprio slept in the gutted carcass of an actual horse during the shoot turns out to have been an urban myth. Producer Steve Golin clarified this during a producers' round table interview with The Hollywood Reporter, conducted by editors Stephen Galloway and Matt Belloni. In actuality, the sequence took about two hours to film, with Leo inhabiting a prosthetic carcass. Iñarritu sees Hugh Glass as becoming "a man, a beast, a saint, a martyr, a spirit". Although inspired by true events (a trapper called Hugh Glass was in fact attacked by a bear and left for dead out in the open in the middle of the summer by two of his fellow trappers), the movie takes many huge liberties with its depiction of these events. The two biggest and most crucial departures from reality may be the main characters motivation (since in reality the trappers never killed his son) and the ending (since the real Hugh Glass never took his revenge, but instead forgave the two trappers who left him for dead). The real Hugh Glass did not have a son and there is no record that he was ever married. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Revenant_(2015_film) trailer: https://youtu.be/oYiT-vLjhC4 THE REVENANT (2015) Written and directed by Alejandro G. Iñárritu Hugh [in pawnee]: It's okay son...I know you want this to be over. I'm right here. I will be right here... But you don't give up. You hear me? As long as you can still grab a breath, you fight. You breathe... keep breathing. ... John: Grab the pelts! Grab the pelts! Grab the pelts! ... Henry: Would rather hold on to the pelts or your life? John: Life? What life are you talkin' about? I ain't got no life! I just got a living and the only way I get to do that is through these pelts! Fuck! Ain't no way I'm going home after six months working my ass off like a mule, risking my neck, men dying, and for what? Damn near lost everything. The job's been fucked from the start. [he motions toward Hugh] John: There's the one been fucking us. You boys wonder how the Ree managed to get the dead drop on us when Mr. Glass here was supposed to be looking out for that very thing. All them Pawnee buddies of his. ... John [of Hugh's "half-breed" son]: All I'm saying is a savage is a savage. ... John: You're forgetting your place, boy. Hugh: As far as I can tell, my place is right here on the smart end of this rifle. ... Hugh [to his son]: I told you to be invisible, son. If you want to survive keep your mouth shut. Son: At least he heard me. Hugh [grabbing him]: They don't hear your voice! They just see the color of your face! You understand? YOU UNDERSTAND?!! Son [bitterly]: Yes. ... John [after they find Hugh mauled by the bear]: He shouldn't have fired the shot. The whole place is crawling with tree niggers. ... John: The proper thing to do would be to finish him off quick. Bridger: Unless he has a chance of pulling through. Trapper [scoffing]: Pulling through? You saw what that griz did to him. He'll be dead inside an hour. John: Mmm-hmm. We all will be if he don't quit wailing like that. ... Jones [a Frenchman]: Those pelts are stolen. Elk Dog: You all have stolen everything from us. Everything! The land. The animals. Two white men snuck into our villages, and took my daughter, Powaqa. We leave you these pelts because honor demands it. I take your horses to find my daughter. You are free to try to stop us. ... Henry: There’s a seventy dollar bonus from the Rocky Mountain Fur Company to the two men that stay with Glass...see this through. Bridger: I’ll stay with him... money or not. Pig: Same here. Henry: Is there a third? John: Three won’t stand much chance against a party of Ree, Captain. And seventy dollars won’t buy me a new setta ears. Henry: A hundred then. Bridger: They can have my share. John: If Pig feels the same, I'll lag back with 'em. I don’t mind fallin’ a day or so behind for three hundred dollars. Henry: But Glass is to be cared for until. Understood? John: Understood. Or maybe not. Hugh Glass' Wife [in a flashback]: As long as you can still grab a breath, you fight. You breathe. Keep breathing. When there is a storm and you stand in front of a tree, if you look at its branches, you swear it will fall. But if you watch the trunk, you will see its stability. ... John: Be easier on us all if you’d take that last breath Glass. I could help ya with that if you’d like. Muzzle ya right now...end all this sufferin’ quick and easy. Nobody’d ever know you give up. I'd do that. All you got to do is blink if you want me to do that. Save your boy and blink. [Hugh won't blink] John: You just have to blink. [Hugh finally closes his eyes] John: Yeah, there it is. You'd best hope that the good Lord'll get his ass here quick, huh? Maybe he'll forgive your sins, maybe he won't [He starts to smother Hugh] John: Thus I do commend thee to the Lord. ... Bridger: The Ree. John: What of them? Bridger: Tell me right now and be honest. Did you see them? John: Put you rifle down. Bridger: Did you see the Ree?! John: No. Not a single one. ... Hikuc [to Hugh]: My heart bleeds. But revenge is in the creator's hands. ... John: You all right there kid? Your head in the right place? Bridger: I guess... I can't help thinking about whether we did the right... John: No! Ain't our place to wonder. The good Lord got us on a road whether we choose it or not. My pop, he weren't a religious man, you know? If you couldn't grow it, kill it, or eat it, he just plain old didn't believe in it, that was it. And this one time he head on up the old Saba hills... San Saba hills? He joined a couple Texas Ranger buddies of his to hunt you know? pretty routine, he done it like a hundred times before, should have been a three-day kill but, on the second day, it all went fucked. Somehow that night he lost his buddies, and to top it off, them Comanches went and took the horses so, he was starving and delirious...and he crawls up into this mott, this...this group of trees out in the middle of nowhere just sticking up in this ocean of scrub and he found religion. At that moment he told me...he found God. And it turns out that God...He's a squirrel. Yea. A big, old meaty one. "I found God" he used to say. "And while sitting there and basking in the glory and sublimity of mercy I shot and ate that son of a bitch." ... John [to Bridger as they approach the fort]: There she is. We did it. You ought to be proud of yourself, boy. Well, we followed orders. We just skipped the funeral part. Don't go down there and start growing no conscience. They'll have us both swinging from a couple of ropes. Now we did what we had to do. ... Henry: What happened? John: We did what we had to do. He was buried right. ... Placard (in French hanging around Hicus hanging from a tree): WE ARE ALL SAVAGES ... Hugh: I will get a horse. Powaqa [to Toussaint]: I will cut off your balls. She does. Henry [to Bridger]: Say the Lord's Prayer! Say the Lord's Prayer! ... Hugh: He's afraid. He knows how far I came for him. Same as that elk, when they get afraid they run deep in to the woods. I got him trapped, he just, he doesn't know it yet. Henry: How can you be so sure? Hugh: Cause he got everything to lose. All I had was that boy. And he took him from me. Henry: I can't let you go out there. Not again. Hugh: No. I ain't afraid to die anymore. I done it already. ... Henry: Is it true you killed an officer? Hugh: I just killed a man who was trying to kill my son. ... John: We had a deal, Glass. I tried to tell your, boy all right? I tried to tell him what was happening but he wouldn't listen and kept on screaming. He was gonna get everybody killed. But you and me, we had a deal. ... John: You came all this way just for your revenge, huh? Did you enjoy it, Glass?... 'Cause there ain't nothin' gon' bring your boy back. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film The action thriller. Does anybody do them better than the South Koreans? Especially when the focus is on the "corrupt detective". For example, where they draw the line between a character and a caricature. This stuff no doubt really does happen. Sort of. But few of us know the extent to which what is portrayed in films like this is how it really happens. Consider: Detective Go Geon-soo is having a hard day, and the following events happen to him in less than 24 hours: He receives a divorce notice from his wife. His mother passes away. He and his coworkers are investigated by police inspectors over alleged embezzlement. Then on his way to his mother's funeral, he drives recklessly and commits a fatal hit and run. He tries to cover-up the accident by hiding the man's corpse in his deceased mother's coffin. So, are we just being entertained here...or are there actual lessons to be learned? For example, about police culture. Lots and lots of suspense and just the right touch of humor. Pitch black more often than not. You might even call this one a comedy of errors. It's the classic cat and mouse caper. So, why is the cat tormenting the mouse? What's it really all about? One of those films. As for the ending, let's just say this: the bag isn't big enough. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Hard_Day trailer: https://youtu.be/pG8iJa4dYPc A HARD DAY [Kkeut-kka-ji-gan-da] 2014 Written and directed by Seong-hoon Kim Go Geon-soo: What a fucking day! That's after he nearly hits the dog but before he does hit the man. Chief Jang [to Go Geon-soo after the IAD raid]: Make room in the grave for us too. ... Chief: We can't all go down. This should end with you. I'll take care of you, don't worry. Go Geon-soo: Take care of me? Cover your own ass! You're not getting out of this! Even your brothel trips are on the record! ... Phone text on Go Geon-soo's phone: DET. NAM. RATS ARE HEADING THERE. MIGHT SEARCH THE CAR. ANYTHING INSIDE? Oh yeah. Go Geon-soo [looking into his mother's coffin]: I'm a terrible son. I'll make it up to you. ... Go Geon-soo [after dumping the dead man into her coffin]: Mom, I'll get him out soon, I promise. Him and his cell phone. Go Geon-soo [after they bury his mother with the dead man]: Mother, I am so sorry! Mourner: What a great son! ... Sister [of Go Geon-soo]: Some bastard stole Mina's toy soldier! I'll snap that bastard's neck!! ... Detective: Chief, maybe it was a prank call. Chief: No, I can feel it. He's in there. Go Geon-soo: Sir, I don't think he's here either. Chief: Where is he then? Go Geon-soo: Who knows? Yep: In the coffin with Mom. Go Geon-soo [on the phone]: Who is this? Man's voice: The one who knows you killed Lee. ... Go Geon-soo [on phone]: Whether you report or start digging, go right ahead. But you'll never find him. Why? There's no proof that he was buried, asshole!! There's no proof, fucker! I'm done, fucker!! ... Lt. Park Chang-min: There are 2 types of humans. One who lowers his tail before the alpha. And the one who tries hard after a beat. Which one are you? Go Geon-soo: Are you a cop? Park Chang-min: Didn't I give you a jolt? That sinking feeling. Go Geon-soo: What do you want? Park Chang-min: That was the most important and smart thing you've ever said. What I want? It's simple. Bring Lee. No questions. Go Geon-soo: Why? Park Chang-min: Curiosity killed the cat. ... Go Geon-soo [aloud to himself]: There has to be a reason. Why is he looking for a dead man? ... Go Geon-soo [aloud to himself after searching Lee's corpse]: What's this? Bullet holes? He was already dead? Time to play detective. For example: What's crammed up Lee's ass? Det. Choi [to Go Geon-soo]: We're no model cops, but this time you go too far. You won't believe his fate. Go Geon-soo: Those bullet holes, did you shoot him? Park Chang-min: Yeah, about that. Okay, I shot him. Then Bam! you ran over him. So who killed him? You? Or me? ... Park Chang-min [to Go Geon-soo]: Thanks to you, fucker, I broke the diving record. ... Detective squad commander: Theft and distribution of narcotics, operating a brothel, homicide of an officer, hit-and-run, theft of evidence. This will bury us all. Let's cover it up. Detective: Sir? What should we do with Go Geon-soo? Detective squad commander: Why so soon after a new commisioner took office? Chief Jang, right? Chief Jang: Yes sir. Detective squad commander: Can you take this to the grave? For his sake? Chief Jang: Yes, I'll take it to the grave. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film On one thing both the critics and the general viewing audience are in agreement: this is not a good movie. Probably even a bad movie. Although here the general public was more favorably inclined [6.6 at IMDb] than the critics [42% at RT]. And I basically agree with the critics. It was frustrating to watch. Analogous perhaps to being blown away by the lyrics of a song in which the music is rather, well, bland. The characters [and the plot] basically come off as "contraptions" that exist mostly to allow Woody Allen to probe [yet again] the usual philosophical themes that pervade his films. Here's the thing though: They are basically my own philosophical themes as well. So that's why you are reading this. And that's why I included the film on this thread. Meet Abe: A philosophy professor. This kind: Since he has become aware of his inability to change the world, he has...been living in a state of deep nihilism and arrogant desperation. Remind you of anyone? Indeed, according to Abe, "...there's a difference between a theoretical world of philosophy bullshit and real life, you know? Real, nasty, ugly life that includes greed and hate and genocide. Remember if you learn nothing from me you learn that much of philosophy is verbal masturbation." Also [my own personal favorite]: Abe: "..it's very scary when you run out of distractions." But then in the end it comes down to this: Will Abe [Woody] blink? Oh yeah. Or does he? IMDb Joaquin Phoenix gained 33 pounds for the role on his own, because he thought the character would look like that. The title is a slight reference for a George Bernard Shaw's famous quote: "The reasonable man adapts himself to the conditions that surround him. The unreasonable man adapts surrounding conditions to himself. All progress depends on the unreasonable man". The film is partially a modern-day re-telling of Dostoevsky's famous 19th century novel 'Crime and Punishment', about a university student named Raskolnikov who, deeply troubled by the fact that he can't change the world like Napoleon Bonaparte, decides to murder a pawnbroker to prove that he is morally superior to other people. He justifies this murder by telling himself (and eventually others) that he did it to rid the world of a vile woman whose death would make the world a better place. This is strikingly similar to the plot of 'Irrational Man', where the protagonist Abe - a university teacher - murders a judge, justifying it by saying it was helping a woman in need, but really he did it to satisfy his own ideals. Both Abe and Raskolnikov take a dark satisfaction in partially revealing their role in the murder (Raskolnikov taunts a fellow university student about who committed the murder, and Abe has fun guessing how the killer did it at a dinner). In both stories, a young woman (Sonya in 'Crime and Punishment' and Jill in 'Irrational Man') urges the man to turn himself into the police when an innocent man is wrongly accused of the murder. Woody Allen's appreciation of the source material is evident in two scenes, the first being when Abe comments about how "Dostoevsky got it right" in relation to his ideas about human existence, and more directly when Jill finds a copy of 'Crime and Punishment' open on Abe's desk. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrational_Man_%28film%29 trailer: https://youtu.be/ZvOnxL2pKbI IRRATIONAL MAN [2015] Written and directed by Woody Allen Abe [voiceover]: Kant said human reason is troubled by questions that it cannot dismiss, but also cannot answer. Okay, so what are we talking about here? Morality? Choice? The randomness of life? Aesthetics? Murder? ... Jill [voiceover]: I think Abe was crazy from the beginning. Was it from stress? Was it anger? Was he disgusted by what he saw as life's never-ending suffering? Or was he simply bored by the meaningless of day-to-day existence? And here we are...the difference between Irrational Man and, say, Crimes and Misdemeanors. In the later the philosophy was ingeniusly intertwined in the plot itself. It all seemed entirely plausable. Here the plot just seems hokey, contrived. Abe [voiceover]: Where to begin...You know the existentialists feel that nothing really happens until you hit absolute rock bottom. Well, lets just say that when I went to teach at Braylin College, emotionally, I was at Zabriske Point. ... Rita [to Abe]: Hey, if you're ever bored and you want someone to give you the real lowdown on who's fucking who at this college, just let me know. ... Abe [to the class]: So, Kant would artgue that in a truly moral world, there's absolutely no room for lying. Even the smallest lie destroys his precious categorical imperative. So, Kant would say that if a killer came to your house, looking to kill the man hiding upstairs and asked where he was, you'd be obliged to tell him. In his perfect world, you know, you couldn't lie. Student: Yeah, I can see the logic that if you open the door, even just a crack, you accept a world where lying is permitted. Abe: Okay, then, you'd say if the Nazis came to your house hiding Anne Frank and her family, and asked if anyone was in the attic, you'd say, "Ja, the Franks are upstairs". I doubt it. Because there's a difference between a theoretical world of philosophy bullshit and real life, you know? Real, nasty, ugly life that includes greed and hate and genocide. Remember if you learn nothing from me you learn that much of philosophy is verbal masturbation. ... Abe [to the class]: Okay, Kierkegaard. When making everyday decisions we have absolute freedom of choice. You can do nothing or anything. And this feeling of freedom creates a sense of dread. A dizzy feeling. Anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. Or as some might point out: To molest or not to molest your own daughter. Rita: The students all love you but of course you've raised some eyebrows with the faculty. Abe: Do you ever get discouraged teaching? Ritas: No. Abe: You don't ever ask yourself what the hell it's all about? Another school. Another batch of kids. Sweet kids. Average kids. Nice, but mostly mediocre. They'll grow up to be those people who shape the world with their ignorance or misinformation or passivity... ... Jill [who is young and beautiful and able to attend a top notch university]: I found your view of existence too bleak for me. It was like there were no redeeming joys or pleasures. Abe: Okay. Why are you taking philosophy? What do you want out of it? Because if your goal is to try to figure out what this bullshit's all about, forget it. Jill: But you write books, you write papers... Abe: Well, let me tell you, when I look back at all that verbal posturing, my group thought that we were going to be so special. I marched in every bullshit political demonstration. I spent six months in Darfur getting food to starving families, I wind up with meningitis. I was in Bangladesh. Yeah, you know, you want to see a difference, to save the world. But when you see what you are up against... ... Jill [on Abe's reputation as a womanizer given Simone de Beuavoir's narrative]: Do you find that fulfilling? Many women and one-night stands? Abe: I did at the time. It had a certain frantic quality. One day it stopped being exciting. I couldn't find distraction anymore in that usually reliable painkiller, the orgasm. Jill: Why not? Abe: I couldn't remember the reason for living, and when I did it wasn't convincing. Jill: That sounds scary. Abe: It's very scary when you run out of distractions. ... Rita: What have you been doing? Abe: I'm trying to finish this book I started long ago. Rita: What's it about? Abe: About Heidegger and fascism. Just what the world needs. Another book about Heidegger and fascism. Rita: How's it coming? Abe: Um, I'm blocked, I can't write. Rita: Why? Abe: I can't write 'cause I can't breathe. Rita: What would get you breathing again? Abe: The will to breathe, inspiration. Rita: You need a muse. Abe: I've never needed a muse before. Rita: I hope you're not going to send me back out into the rain after sleeping with me. Abe: I'm trying to write. Actually, it turns out he's impotent. Existentially as it were... Jill [voiceover]: The truth was I was attracted to Abe. Despite, or was it because, he was a lost soul. There was something about his pain and sensitivity that tapped into my romantic fantasies. It was exciting going to museums and seeing movies with him. He was truly an original thinker. The problem was he had no zest for life, no joy, no clear reason for living, which alarmed me. I wanted so much to help him... And [basically] this is what the critics were reacting to. Abe: I've given up. It's all bullshit. You know, my bullshit book on Martin Heidegger is not gonna make a scintilla of difference to the world. Jill: Why do you say things like that? How do you know that? Abe: I set out to be an active world changer and I've wound up a passive intellectual who can't fuck. First Rita, now Jill...? Jill: Despair is what Kierkegaard called the sickness unto death, Abe. And you suffer from despair. Abe: I'm well aware of what Kierkegaard thought. But he was, in the end, a Christian. How comforting that would be. Then comes that conversation overheard in the diner. The ones that sets a murder into motion. Abe [voiceover]: Everything about killing Judge Spangler turned me on. The idea of helping this woman, of taking action, of ridding the world of the kind of vermin that makes the world an extra hell for all of us. I was intrigued by the creative challenge of bringing off the perfect murder. It was a high-stakes risk, but the risk made me feel alive. [b]Student: Why continental philosophy? Abe: Because, you know, continental philosophy deals with problems much more exciting and personal than the analytic tradition. You know, the existentialist philosophers were trying to find out not just what does something mean, but what does it mean for me? For one thing [it turns out] it means he can rationalize a murder. Abe [celebrating Judge Spangler's death with Jill]: Life's ironic isn't it? One day a person has a morass of complicated, unsolvable problems, you know the world seems black, and her troubles seem overwhelming, then in the batting of an eye, dark clouds part and she can enjoy a decent life again. It's just astounding. ... Abe [voiceover]: My writing was flowing, the creative juices unblocked. I was happy and enjoying a sense of well-being, and I'd begun an affair with Jill....and it was carried along on the momentum of the sheer joy of living. The thought that I had once been indifferent to existence seemed preposterous. ... Abe [voiceover]: I'm Abe Lucas and I've murdered. I've had many experiences and now a unique one. I've taken a human life. Not in battle or self defense, but I made a choice I believed in and saw it through. I feel like an authentic human being. ... Abe [to his class]: Today we are going to discuss existential choice. That life has the meaning you choose to give it. And we'll examine Jean-Paul Sartre's wonderful insight, Hell is other people." Solution: Knock them off. Jill: You killed Spangler....I saw your book. I saw you wrote "Spangler, the banality of evil". You must have decided that he deserved to die. Abe: I made the choice to help that woman. You had it right the other night...I always taught you to trust your instincts. Not everything can be grasped by the intellect. If it feels right, it often is. This was the meaningful act that I was searching for. Jill: You can't just take it upon yourself to take someone's life. Abe: Well, I thought it was a very reasonable thing to do. She hoped he'd get cancer. Hoping is bullshit. You see, you have to act. Jill: You can't believe it was moral, what you did. Abe: Of course I do. I consider myself a moral man who's lived a moral life, who came to the aid of a woman who suffering a great injustice. ... Jill: How could you do it, Abe? Abe: Is the world a better place without this rotten judge? In theory, sure. Right, Jill? So: Does she turn him in? Abe: I'm asking you to put our everyday assumptions aside, Jill, and trust your experience of life. In order to really see the world, we must break with our familiar acceptance of it. The second I decided to take this action, my world changed. You saw it. I suddenly found a reason to live...Doing this deed for this woman gave my own life meaning. Jill: You gotta leave, Abe. You gotta go. I can't ever see you again. I won't say anything. I believe that you think you did something morally worthwhile. Abe: I did! Jill: I know, but you can't...you can't justify it! You can't justify it with all this bullshit. With all this French postwar rationalizing. This doesn't...this is murder. This is murder! It opens the door to more murder. I don't have the intellect to refute these arguments. I can't argue with you. But you taught me to think with my instinct and I don't have to think about it. I feel that this is no good. This is murder... Back to Kant and The Lie? Then the twist I didn't see coming... Jill [after "the wrong man" is arrested for murdering Spnagler]: What are going to do about this? Abe: I don't know. Jill: Oh, surely, you're not going to let an innocent man take the rap for you, Abe. Abe: I've been up and back about this since I heard the news. Jill: "Up and back"? What does that mean? Abe: It means that I tried to bring off the perfect crime, and apparently I succeeded all too well. Jill: Okay, well, what about all your talk about high moral ground? Abe: I need to think this out. Jill: What is there to think about? An innocent man is about to have his life ruined. Abe: Okay, okay, I'll give myself up, is that what you want? Jill: Isn;'t that what you want? I mean, all this talk, talk, talk about doing the right thing and what's best... Abe: Okay, if they don't see that they are making a mistake and let him go I will turn myself in! So, would you? I'm reasonably sure that I wouldn't. And neither will he: Abe [voiceover]: The morality of letting someone take the rap troubled me greatly, but paled against the hardwiring of my natural will to survive...Only one thing stood in the way. I had a few days before Jill would insist I clear the wrongfully accused man. Was there a way to keep her from talking? I guess she was right when she said that one murder opens the door to more... Next up: the law of unintended consequences. Oh, and the irony of it all. He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529 Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296 And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382 iambiguous ILP Legend Posts: 36498 Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm Location: baltimore maryland ### Re: philosophy in film It's been a decade now since the big banks nearly toppled the world economy. Or so some will insist. But: Who really knows how close they came? One thing is for certain: they did precipitate The Great Recession. And that brought about all manner of misery for millions and millions of folks. And, sure, even a few of the rich and powerful who brought it all about. Or so some will insist. And now we have yet another film that takes us behind the curtain to expose these guys. But: Does it expose in turn the systemic nature of these calamitous transactions? Are these folks just "bad apples" or does the very nature of crony capitalism itself make this sort of thing inevitable? Meaning it is always only a matter of time before the next bubble will burst. In fact, the cronies in Washington make no appearance at all. The folks in the White House and on Capital Hill are scarcely mentioned. They let all this happen but it is as though K street and campaign contributions were incidental to how "the system" is sustained. And until that part is understood we will go on having presidential elections in which folks actually do believe that with regard to the economy there really is a difference between electing Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. The only hope here is the fact that the Bernie Sanders campaign is proof positive that you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Assuming of course that he's legit. And the next bubble will burst in part because only a handful of folks really understand the complexities embedded in these labyrinthian "financial" contraptions. Most of us can be told practically anything about them, right? Here's the thing though: The system is exposed, sure. But what if crony capitalism really is the least worst of all possible worlds? What if all the other systems really aren't better? IMDb The quotation that appears on screen, "'Truth is like poetry. And most people fucking hate poetry.' - Overheard at a Washington, D.C. bar", was written by director and co-writer Adam McKay after unsuccessfully searching for the perfect quotation to use for that segment. The character Mark Baum is based on real-life money manager Steve Eisman. Jared Vennett is based on real-life trader Greg Lippmann. Ben Rickert is based on Ben Hockett. Charlie Gellar and Jamie Shipley are based on Charlie Ledley and Jamie Mai. After Christian Bale met with Dr. Michael Burry, the character he would play in the movie, he asked to have Burry's cargo shorts and T-shirt, which he then wore in the movie. Bale later said he hoped Burry would make it to the L.A. premiere, "because I really want to sit next to him and see if he's going to punch me in the fucking face." Jeffry Griffin was an extra on set for the day. He was pulled out of the crowd to play Jared Vennett's assistant, Chris. Later, his role was expanded to two weeks of filming, sharing every scene with Ryan Gosling. at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Short_(film) trailer: https://youtu.be/vgqG3ITMv1Q THE BIG SHORT [2015] Written in part and directed by Adam McKay Title card: It ain't what you know that gets you in trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so --- Mark Twain ... Jared [to the camera]: In the late seventies banking wasn't a job you went into to make large sums of money. It was a fucking snooze! Filled with losers! Like selling insurance, or accounting and if banking was boring...Then the bond department at the bank was straight up comatose. We all know about bonds... You give em to your snot nosed kid when he turns fifteen maybe when he's thirty he makes a hundred bucks. Boring! That is until Lewis rainieri came on the scene at Salomon brothers. You might not know who he is but he changed your life more than Michael Jordan, the I-pod and YouTube put together! You see, Lewis didn't know it yet, but he already changed banking forever with one simple idea. The mortgage backed security. ... Lewis [at a meeting]: You got your average persons mortgage fixed rate, thirty years, boring! Same, small payoff. Right! But when you add thousands of them all bundled together suddenly, the yield goes up, but the risk is still small, because...well, they're mortgages, and who the hell doesn't pay their mortgage? ... Jared [voiceover]: The money came raining down! And for the first time, the banker went from the country-club to the strip-club. Pretty soon, stocks and savings were almost inconsequential. They were doing fifty, a hundred, two hundred billion in mortgage bonds and dozens of other securities a year. And America barely noticed that it's number one industry became boring old banking and then one day, almost thirty years later, in 2008 it all came crashing down! In the end Lewis Rainier's mortgage backed security mutated into a monstrosity that collapsed the whole world economy and none of the experts, or leaders, or talking heads had a clue it was coming. And I'm guessing most of you still don't really know what happened. ... Michael [on the phone]: Lawrence, I've found something really interesting... Lawrence: Great Michael, whenever you find something interesting, we all sit to make money. What stock are you vowing? Michael: No, no, no no. I wanna, I wanna short the housing market...You know me...I look for value, wherever it can be found. The fact is that these mortgage backed securities are filled with extremely risky sub-prime adjustable rates. And when the majority of these adjustable rates kick in... in '07 they will begin to fail and if they fail above 15 percent the whole bond is worthless. ... Jared [voiceover]: Mortgage backed securities, sub-prime loans, tranches...it's all pretty confusing right? Doesn't it make you feel bored...or stupid. Well... it's supposed to. Wall-street loves to use confusing terms, to make you think only they can do what they do. Or even better...for you just to leave them the fuck alone. ... Margot Robbie [the actress to the camera]: Basically, Lewis Rainieri's mortgage bonds were amazingly profitable for the big banks. But then they ran out of mortgages to put in them. After all, there are only so many homes and so many people with good enough jobs to buy them... right? So the banks started filling these bonds with riskier and riskier mortgages. That way, they can keep that profit machine churning right? By the way, these risky mortgages are called: Sub-prime. So whenever you hear sub-prime...think: Shit, ... Rabbi: Mark is an excellent student of the Torah and the Talmud. Mark's Mom: Then what's the problem, rabbi? Rabbi: It's the reason Mark is studying so hard. He's looking for inconsistencies in the word of God! Mark's Mom: So has he found any? ... Michael [at Goldman Sachs]: I wanna buy...swaps on mortgage bonds credit default swap, that will pay off if the underlying bond fails. Banker: You want to bet against the housing market? Yes Michael: Yes. Banker: Why? Those bonds only fail if millions of Americans don't pay their mortgages. That's never happened in history. If you'll excuse me Dr. burry, that seems like a foolish investment. Michael: Based on prevailing sentiment of the market and banks, and popular culture yes, it's a foolish investment. But everyone's wrong... Banker: This is wall-street Dr. burry, if you offer us free money, we're going to take it. Michael: My one concern is, is that when the bonds fail I want to be certain of payment, in case of solvency issues with the bank. Banker: I'm sorry, are you for real? You want to bet against the housing market, and you're worried we won't pay you? Michael: Yes, that's correct. ... Banker: We're prepared to sell you 5 million in credit default swaps on these mortgage bonds. Michael: Can we make it a hundred million? Banker: Absolutely! We can make it one-hundred million. ... Lawrence [on the phone after he learns that Michael dumped 1.3 billion dollars into credit default swaps]: We had an underlying understanding, you wouldn't act like a goddamn crazy man! Michael: This is not crazy. It's all very logical. Lawrence: So now we pay up premiums on these swaps against housing-market until the mortgages fail? In other words we lose millions until somethingthat has never happened before...happens?! Michael: That's correct. ... Danny: You're completely sure of the math? Jared: Look at him, that's my quant. Mark: Your what? Jared: My quantitative. My math specialist. Look at him, you notice anything different about him? Look at his face. Mark That's pretty racist. Jared: Look at his eyes, I'll give you a hint, his name is Yang. He won a national math competition in China and he doesn't even speak English! Yeah I'm sure of the math. Jiang [to the camera]: Actually, my name is Jiang, and I do speak English. Jared likes to say it though because he thinks it makes me seem more authentic. And I got second in that national math competition. ... Jared [regarding credit default swaps]: Let me put it this way: I'm standing in front of a burning house, and I'm offering you fire insurance on it. ... Mark: How can these underlying bonds be as bad as you say? It wouldn't be legal! Jared: Nobody knows what's in them! Nobody knows, what's in the bonds, I've seen some that are 65 percent AAA-rating. That I know, for a fact, are filled with 95 percent sub-prime shit. With fico's below 550 Mark: Gaet the fuck out of here! Jared: Want me to really blow your mind? When the market deems a bond too risky to buy, what do you think we do with it?Take a guess! You think we just warehouse it on the books? No, we just repackage it, with a bunch of other shit that didn't sell and put it into a CDO Mark: A CDO? Jared: Yes, a CDO [he turns to the camera] Jared: A collateralized debt obligation. Jared: That's where we take a bunch of Bs, bb's and bbb's that haven't sold, and we put em in a pile and when the pile gets large enough, the whole is suddenly considered 'diversified'. And then the whores at the rating agency, give it a 92 / 93 percent AAA-rating, no questions asked... ... Anthony Bourdain [the chef explaining a CDO]: OK, I'm a chef on a Sunday afternoon, setting the menu at a big restaurant. I ordered my fish on Friday, which is the mortgage bond that Michael Burry shorted. But some of the fresh fish doesn't sell. I don't know why. Maybe it just came out halibut has the intelligence of a dolphin. So, what am I going to do? Throw all this unsold fish, which is the BBB level of the bond, in the garbage, and take the loss? No way. Being the crafty and morally onerous chef that I am, whatever crappy levels of the bond I don't sell, I throw into a seafood stew. See, it's not old fish. It's a whole new thing! And the best part is, they're eating 3-day-old halibut. That is a CDO. ... Mark [of Collateralized Debt Obligation funds]: So mortgage bonds are dog shit. CDOs are dog shit wrapped in cat shit. ... Mark: The banks have given us 25% interest rates on credit cards. They have screwed us on student loans that we can never get out from under. Then this guy walks into my office and says those same banks got greedy, they lost track of the market, and I can profit off of their stupidity? Fuck, yeah, I want him to be right! ... Title card: ISDA Agreement: An agreement that lets an investor sit at the "big boy table" and make high level trades not available to the stupid amateurs. Trying to be a high stakes trader without an ISDA is like trying to win the Indy 500 riding a llama. ... Jared [voiceover]: Ben Ricker was a former trader in Singapore for Chase. Quit the whole game in disgust...But Ben was dark. He didn't just think the whole system would fail he thought the whole world was going down! ... Mark [after realtors basically tell him they will give anyone a mortgage]: I don't get it. Why are they confessing? Danny: They're not confessing. Porter: They're bragging. ... Mark: Do people have any idea what they are buying? Realtor: I focus on immigrants! Once they find out they're getting homes they'll sign where you tell em to sign. They don't ask questions, they don't understand the rates. ... Vinnie [on the phone]: How are you fucking us? Jared: When you come for the payday, I'm gonna rip your eyes out. I'm gonna make a fortune. The good news is Vinnie, you're not going to care cause you're gonna make so much money. That's what I get out of it. Wanna know what you get out of it? You get the ice cream, the hot fudge, the banana and the nuts. Right now I get the sprinkles, and ya - if this goes thru, I get the cherry. But you get the sundae Vinny. You get the sundae. Vinnie: All right. I buy that. Thank you. ... Title card: Truth is like poetry. And most people fucking hate poetry -- overheard at a Washington D.C. bar. ... Mark [on the phone]: Ok, I want you to walk back in there and very calmly, very politely tell the risk-assessors to fuck-off! Vinnie [walks into the room]: Gentlemen, I just spoke with Mark Baum and he says to 'fuck off'. ... Mark: Georgia! Have you ever refused to rate any of these bonds upper-tranches AAA? Can we see the paperwork on those? Georgia [of Standard and Poors]: Oooh, I'm under no obligation to share that information with you, whoever you might be. Mark: Just answer the question Georgia, can you name one time in the past year? Where you checked the tape and you didn't give the banks the AAA-percentage they wanted? Georgia: If we don't give them the ratings, they'll go to Moody's right down the block. If we don't work with them they will go to our competitors not our fault, simply the way the world works. Vinnie: You're selling ratings for fees. ... Jared: Didn't I say, that when we made this deal, that the rating-agencies, the SEC and the big banks were clueless! Didn't I say that? Didn't I say it? Mark: Yes you did, you did! Jared: Now their foot's on fire and they think their steak is done, and you're surprised? Mark: That's not stupidity that's fraud! Jared: Tell me the difference between stupid and illegal and I'll have my wife's brother arrested. I guess you just don't realize how clueless the system really is! Yes, there's some shady shit going down! But trust me, it's fueled by stupidity! Look at yourselves! You know you passed yourselves off as cynical people but you still have some faith in the system don't you? I don't. ... Vinnie [at the American Securitization Forum]: It's like someone hit a pinata full of white people who suck at golf. ... Lewis: If the investors withdraw, what's gonna happen here? Are we done? Michael: Honestly I don't know. The...the...the bonds aren't going down! They won't move! It's possible that we are in a completely fraudulent system. Lewis: Or you're, you're wrong. Michael: Sure! It's possible, I just don't know how! Of course he wasn't, was he? Ben: Do you have any idea what you just did? Charlie: Come on, we just made the deal of our lifetime, we should celebrate! Ben: You just bet against the American economy! Charlie: Fuck yeah we did! Ben: Which means...which means if we're right, people lose homes. People lose jobs. People lose retirement savings, people lose pensions. You know what I hate about fucking banking? It reduces people to numbers. Here's a number - every 1% unemployment goes up, 40,000 people die, did you know that? More do the point, did they care? Mark: Hold on, say that again! CDO A, has parts of CDO B and CDO B, has parts of CDO A and then they both get put inside CDO C? CDO manager: Yeah and that one is called CDO square! A CDO of a CDO. And then there's CDOs made up of the opposite sides of the bet you made with the swaps we call them, synthetic CDOs Mark: What did you just say? Synthetic CDOs? That is fucking crazy! ... Mark: Alright, let's say you have a pool of 50 million in sub-prime loans how much money could be out there betting on it in your synthetic CDOs and swaps? Right now. Tonight. CDO manager: Let's see, 50 million? Hmm.. A billion dollars Mark: What?! Jared [voiceover]: If the mortgage-bonds that Michael Burry discovered were the match... Mark: How much bigger is the market for insuring mortgage bonds than for actual mortgages? CDO manager: About twenty times. Jared [voiceover]: ...then the CDOs were the kerosene soaked rags. And then the synthetic CDO was the atomic bomb with a drunk president holding his finger over the button. It was at that moment in that dumb restaurant with that stupid look on his face that Mark Baum realized that the whole world economy might collapse! ... Jared [voiceover]: I know what you're thinking! What the fuck is a synthetic CDO? Well, here's Dr. Richard Thaler, father of behavioral economics, and Selena Gomez to explain... ... Selena Gomez: Ok, so here's how a synthetic cdo works! Let's say I bet ten million on a Black Jack hand. Dr. Thaler: Ten million, because this hand is to represent a single mortgage bond. Okay, Selena has a pretty good hand here. Showing eighteen, dealer showing seven that's a really good hand for Selena. Good odds, in fact her chances of winning this hand are eighty-seven percent. Selena: So, my odds are good I'm on a winning streak and everybody in this place wants to get in on the action. How could I lose right? Dr. Thaler: Now this is a classic error. In basketball it's called the hot-hand-fallacy. A player makes a bunch of shots in a row people are sure they're gonna make the next one. People think, whatever is happening now is gonna continue to happen into the future. During the real-estate boom markets were going up and up! And people thought they would never go down. Selena: So people who are watching and think that I won't lose will make a side-bet. Now this, is the first synthetic CDO. [spectators make a bet on Selena] Dr. Thaler: Now somebody else is gonna wanna make a bet on the outcome of their bet. That will lead to synthetic CDO number two. Selena: And this will go on and on, with more and more synthetic CDOs Dr. Thaler: And we can transform an original ten million dollar investment into billions of dollars. ... Title card: Everyone, deep in their hearts, is waiting for the end of the world to come --- Haruki Murakami ... Charlie: I asked bear-stearns to price our shorts they tell me the cdo's still haven't moved this is fucking insane! Jamie: You realize that? These people are crooks and they should be in prison! Look at the theta-graphics, you can see that the CDOs are worth zero! So you know what they're doing huh? You know what they're doing right? Charlie: They're not loading them. They're selling their dogshit CDOs then they go to another bank and short the shit, while they fucking sold it! ... Jamie: Right now, every bank in town is unloading these shit-bonds onto un-suspecting customers and they won't devalue them until they get them off their books this level of criminality is unprecedented even on fucking Wall Street!! ... Jared [to the camera after looking down at a$47,000,000 check]: So I was right. I took a rash of shit for two years. But I was right! And everyone else was wrong! And yeah I got a bonus-cheque for it. So sue me! It's a lot of money! I get it, I can feel you judging me. That's palpable. But hey I never said I was the hero of this story.

...

Mark [to the audience]: My firms thesis is pretty simple wall-street took a good idea: Lewis Raneiri's mortgage-bonds and turned it into an atomic bomb of fraud and stupidity that's on it's way to decimating the world economy
Bruce Miller: Tell us how do you really feel.
Mark: I'm glad you still have a sense of humor. I wouldn't if I were you. We live in an era of fraud in America. Not just in banking, but in government, education, religion, food, even baseball. What bothers me ins't that fraud is not nice. Or that fraud is mean. For fifteen thousand years, fraud and short sighted thinking have never, ever worked. Not once. Eventually you get caught, things go south. When the hell did we forget all that? I thought we were better than this, I really did. The fact that we're not, doesn't make me feel all-right and superior. It makes me feel sad. And as fun as it is to watch pompous dumbass Wall-Streeters be wildly wrong, I just know that at the end of the day average people are going to be the ones that are going to have to pay for all of this. Because they always, always do.

...

Mark [on the phine]: Paulsson and Bernanke just left the White House. There's going to be a bail-out.
Vinnie: Well, they had to! Right?
Mark: We paid for mortgages with collaterals they knew! Cash would have stopped coming out the ATM, they had to back-stop this they knew the tax-payers would bail them out, they weren't stupid, they just didn't care!
Vinnie: Yeah, 'cause they're fucking crooks! But, at least we're gonna see some of them go to jail. Right? I mean, they're gonna have to break up the banks. The party is over!
Mark: I don't know, I don't know. I have a feeling, that in a few years, people are gonna do, what they always do when the economy tanks. They will be blaming immigrants and poor people.

...

Jared [voiceover]: But mark was wrong! In the years that followed, hundreds of bankers and rating-agency's executives went to jail. The SEC was completely overhauled and Congress had no choice, but to break up the big banks and regulate the mortgage and derivative industries.
[pause]
Jared: Just kidding. Banks took the money the American people gave them and used it to pay themselves huge bonuses and lobby the congress to kill big reform and then they blamed immigrants and poor people.

...

Title car: When the dust settled from the collapse, 5 trillion dollars in pension money, real estate value, 401K, savings and bonds had diappeared. 8 million people lost their jobs, 6 million lost their homes. And that was just in the USA.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 36498
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Tagline: This is your insanity on drugs.

Over and over and over again we are bombarded with all manner of advertisements for all manner of medications. And each and everyone of them has possible side effects. Some more or less benign, others more or less dangerous.

We are to see our doctor "right away" if the latter.

But: with literally millions and millions and millions of dollars at stake there will inevitably be those cases that go off -- way off-- the beaten path.

Imagine for example a side effect that resulted in you walking in your sleep and killing someone. Your husband for example. Unless of course it's about something altogether different.

And consider this:

Up to the year 2005, there have been around 68 documented cases of homicidal sleepwalking.

So, we have two gigantic industrial complexes -- pharmaceutical and legal -- out to enrich themselves off our accumulating afflictions.

Here the prescription was written by a psychiatrist. And god knows how many prescriptions are written each year for, among other things, anxiety and depression. And some will include new or "experiemental" medication that is said to attack the symptoms from a different direction.

You can clearly see just how murky this can all become. What is true and what do others merely want you to believe is true? What can the diabolical mind use to fabricate any number of diabolical plots?

If nothing else it depicts just how enormously complex human psychological interactions can be. Even before the part where the interactions become dysfunctional. There are simply too many variables to ever imagine fitting them altogether in order to understand why we do this instead of that. Not counting all the actual out and out lies. The fraud. The flim-flam.

This one also hits home because some years ago I was impaled by depression. Twice. It is almost impossible to describe just how debilitating it can be to those who have never been depressed. Really depressed. As Dr. Banks notes, "a psychologist once said 'depression is an inability to construct a future'".

How bad can it get? Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darkness_Visible_(memoir)

But...

That is not really what this movie is about at all. Instead, the film reconfigures into a "thriller". All that "psychological stuff" becomes considerably more self-serving. And then you're not really sure what to believe. Or who to believe. Think for example Final Analysis above: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=179469&p=2506745&hilit=final+analysis+directed#p2506745

Unfortunately, I found the other part [the first half] far more fascinating.

IMDb

Jude Law admitted that he felt insecure as an actor playing the lead role, as it was his first performance in which he was playing a husband and father, as he is in real-life, and his first role where he used his normal accent and did not have any hair or makeup change.

Steven Soderbergh considered casting Lindsay Lohan for the role of Emily and he auditioned her three times. However, producers felt that her ongoing legal issues would disrupt the production process. Rooney Mara was eventually cast for the part.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side_Effects_(2013_film)
trailer: https://youtu.be/EFEou3MBLi4

SIDE EFFECTS [2013]
Directed by Steven Soderbergh

Emily: Why are you here?
Jonathan: I'm a psychiatrist, Miss Taylor. Normally, when people hit things with their car, there are skidmarks on the pavement. A brick wall is a pretty good reason to use the brakes, turn the wheel. You didn't do that. You went straight into it.

...

Jonathan [pointing to a prescription]: I want to start her on this. It's called an SSRI. It effects the neurotransmitter in the brain called serotonin.
Martin: And what does that do exactly?
Jonathan: Basically, it stops the brain from telling you you're sad.

Raising [as these things always do] questions revolving around human autonomy itself.

Victoria [Emily's first shrink]: I saw her four years ago. For a little over nine months. She didn't just have the rug pulled from under her, she had the rug, the home, the husband. Her entire life, gone. Even her health insurance. She moved into the city to find work and I never heard from her again. I'm glad she's seeing a man this time. I think that will help.
Jonathan: Why is that?
Victoria: Never felt seen by her father. Then her husband ends up in jail and she's abandoned again.

...

Jonathan: She says you tried her on medication.
Victoria: Oh, yes. Wellbutrin. Prozac. Effexor. Really struggled. I remember she had problems with sleep and nausea. Chills...
Jonathan: I'm putting her on Zoloft, see if she can tolerate that.
Victoria: Maybe she's a candidate for one of these newer meds. Sometimes the newest thing gives them confidence. They see the ads on TV, they believe. I have a patient with some similar issues. I put her on Ablixa.

All those variables, all those different combinations of reactions. The ones in your head, the ones out in the world. Each of us an embodiment all to our own.

...

Dierdre: [Jonathan's wife about taking a beta blocker]: Is it bad that I'm doing this?
Jonathan: Everyone takes them. Lawyers, musicians - people going to interviews for big jobs. It doesn't make you anything you're not. It just makes it easier for you to be who you are.

...

Jonathan: Emily, I know that this is hard. But the hopelssness you're feeling is a symptom. We have to leave that in the past. A psychologist once said, "depression is an inability to construct a future".

...

Emily: I can't take the Zoloft anymore. I can't. I'm dizzy. I can't sleep. I have no sex drive.

Next up: Ablixa. Oh, and fraud.

Pharmacist: Have you taken Ablixa before?
Emily: No.
Pharmacist: Some of the side effects may include nausea, muscle weakness, insomnia, change in appetite, dry mouth, irritation. Do you want to pay cash?

...

Shrink: There were court seats at Knicks games, fishing trips at Cape Cod. It was crazy.
Shrink: One year Warner-Lambert took us to Hawaii. I gave a talk for five minutes and played 36 holes.
Shrink: What did Pfizer have to pay to make their whole thing go away? Two billion? Lilly paid over a billion to settle the Zyprexa thing. A certain rep who will remain nameless got me tickets to the World Series. Got my son an autographed ball!
Pharma rep: Well, it's not a violation of the pharma code to buy your doctors lunch. As long as we do talk business for about five minutes.

...

Martin: Can't she stop taking drugs? Isn't there an alternative to...
Emily: No. God, no. I can finally sleep. I have some energy. We have sex....I've tried everything else. You don't know Martin. You've never had this. You don't know what it's like. Okay? Every afternoon it's like...it's like there's this poisonous fog bank rolling in on my mind and I'm paralyzed.

...

Jonathan [to Emily and Martin after the first sleep-walking incident]: There are things that we can do to make this work. Other medications that we add to the Ablixa, ones designed to deal with the sleepwalking while the Ablixa helps you get a handle on your depression.

...

Jonathan: I want to be totally clear that I am being paid to participate in this study. And if you don't want to take part I totally understand. There are other meds besides Deltrex I can prescribe.
Patient: So, my medication is free. I don't have to report it to my insurance company or anything?
Jonathan: For as long as you choose to be a part of the study, your meds are free.

Let's call this "the system".

Martin [just before Emily stabs him over and again]: Those fucking pills...

...

Detective [to Jonathan]: Any idea why the dinner table was set for three, Dr. Banks?

...

Detective [holding up an evidence bag with the Ablixa]: She was taking these. For depression, right? I've seen the ads.
Jonathan: I'd like to speak to her, if that's possible.
Detective: You can talk to her at Rykers.
Jonathan: It's possible, you see, that she was asleep.
Detective [looking at his partner]: What?
Jonathan: She walks in her sleep. That's maybe why she doesn't remember anything. It's a side effect of this medication. She's had other episodes.
Detective [nodding incredulously]: She kills people in her sleep too.

...

Detective [to Jonathan]: Well, this goes one of two ways, doesn't it? See, either she's a murderer...or she's a victim of here medical treatment. In which case you're the target of a big civil suit. Either way, someone gets punished. Her or you.

...

Emily [in jail]: I never want to see another pill again....Is there anyway that someone else did it...and made it look like me?
Jonathan: I don't think so.
Emily: I killed the wrong person...

...

Dierdre: Do you want to talk about it?
Jonathan: A patient of mine was arrested.
Dierdre: Did the person do it? Are they guilty?
Jonathan: In this case, those are two very different things.

...

Martin's mother [to Emily]: But I don't understand it. You watch the commercials on TV, people are always getting better!

...

Martin's Mother [reading from Emily's letter on TV] "We go to doctors with our sadness and our faith in the hope they will guide us toward health. But instead I have gone down a path toward a misery I never could have imagined. And I have taken my loved ones with me. My only hope is that no one else follows me to this place."

...

Jonathan [testifying at Emily's trial]: What makes us human? What differentiates us from, let's say, insects, is that we have consciousness. An awareness of what we're thinking and what we're doing. If for example I am hungry, I am consciously aware of that. And so I go to the fridge and I make myself a sandwich.
Lawyer: So you intend to make the sandwich.
Jonathan: Yes.
Lawyer: So, what you are saying is that to have intent, you must also have consciousness.
Jonathan: Consciousness provides a context or meaning for our actions. If that part of you doesn't exist then basically, we are functioning much like an insect where you just respond instinctively without a thought to what your actions mean.
Lawyer: And that part that provides meaning to action, does that exist when we're asleep?
Jonathan: No.
Lawyer: So without consciousness, how do we prove intent?
Jonathan: I don't believe we can.

And that's before we get to the arguments relating to determinism.

Victoria [to Jonathan]: ...the point is the cardiologist can see it coming, the heart attack, from the tests. It's in the blood. But who can see the lies? Or the past? Or the sadness?

...

Jonathan: No, look, I went to her office. There is no Julia at work who takes Ablixa.
Dierdre: What are you talking about?
Jonathan: Why did she make up Julia?
Dierdre: I don't know. Isn't she sick? I thought sick people sometimes make things up.

...

Dierdre: The case is over. The photographers are gone, your partners are gone, the Deltrix thing is now gone. You're the only one that's still here.
Jonathan: I just want to know what happened.
Dierdre: A woman you were treating killed her husband. That's what happened.

...

Jonathan: She's not depressed.
District Attorney: Yeah. And you didn't catch it and someone died. And I didn't catch it and someone didn't go to jail. We failed.

...

Victoria: You could get national coverage on this. "Shrinks fucking patients and manipulating them into killing their spouses". Hot stuff. I would say this would ruin your practice...But wait. You don't have a practice anymore. Or a wife...or a kid I'm betting. So what else can you lose? State revoke your license yet?
Jonathan: I always tell my patients, "You know what the best predictor of future behavior is? Past behavior."

...

Jonathan: The only problem with having a crazy person for a partner is that they tend to stay crazy. You should know how difficult it is to cure a pretty girl with daddy issues.
Victoria: Nice try Jon. I'm not buying it.
Jonathan [leaning into her face, fiercely]: Spend the fucking money now. Because they're coming to take it back.
Victoria: What are you talking about?
Jonathan: You could go and ask her. Only she asked me to keep yopu from seeing her. She told me everything.

...

Victoria [after clobbering Jonathan with her purse]: You get her out of there right now, do you hear me. You do that and you won't hear from either one of us again. Yeah, you can go back to chatting with rich white people about their problems. She's cured...as of right now, Jon. You're a fucking genius!

...

Jonathan [to Emily, about electroshock treatment...as though it were Victoria's idea]: It's in our best interest that you start forgetting.

...

Emily: Imagine everything you ever wanted shows up one day and calls itself your life. And then just when you start to believe in it - gone. And suddenly it gets very hard to imagine a future. That's depression, right? So I went to see Dr. Siebert....I think she always liked girls, she just never found one she liked as much as me. She taught me how to be depressed, what drugs had which side effects, what symptoms went with what diagnosis...What do you doctors call faking? Malingering? Such a funny word. Girls learn to fake things at a very early age - probably around the same time that boys are learning to lie.
Jonathan: When did you decide to kill him?
Emily: It's not a decision you make just once. You make it over and over and over again. Everytime you look at your life and you see the position you're in and who put you there. And it all leads back to him. Each and every fucking problem, every disappointment. And you think that maybe if he just goes away it will all get better.

...

Emily [to Jonathan]: I read somewhere that there's a difference between tears of joy and tears of rage. Is that true? It's in the chemistry, but you can't tell by looking, they all just look like tears.

Meanwhile he has completely turned everything around: she's now the dupe:

Jonathan: Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. That's what she said about you.
Emily: And how long do you two plan on keeping me here?
Jonathan: Why would we ever let you leave?
Emily: Because...maybe there's a better deal.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

Start here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=176529
Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
And here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=194382

iambiguous
ILP Legend

Posts: 36498
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
Location: baltimore maryland

### Re: philosophy in film

Grim.

Some like grim, some don't. Depending in part on how more or less grim your own life has been. Or still is. Or [you suspect] soon will be.

There's just no getting around grim. Not in this world. One way or the other. So, up to a point, we can all relate to the characters here.

But only if you are able to work around the part about class.

Mom's drinking herself into the grave. But the loving son is determined to get her the help she needs. Only they are poor and the options are limited. So, what is the son willing to do in order to accomplish the task?

And John loves -- really loves -- his mom. And when you love someone from the bottom of your heart you can be driven in any number of directions in order to ease their pain, to stop their incessant sobbing.

On the other hand, it is the sort of love that I have never really felt. Not for anyone. And I don't imagine anyone has ever felt it for me. So I can only speculate as to what it might be like.

This is essentially one of those films in which conflicting goods are more or less the center of the universe. What is John able to rationalize in order to justify [to himself] the pain that he may inflict on others? Where does he draw the line between what is in his own best interest but is clearly not in the best interest of others. For example, to save his mom is he willing to become part of an operation that deals in human trafficking?

Note: A film where the characters all speak English but if you don't have access to subtitles you had better be adept at grappling with a thick Irish accent. Working class to the bone. Cockneyesque?

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassland
trailer: https://youtu.be/AyGdIXNyqnM

GLASSLAND [2014]
Written and directed by Gerard Barrett

John [voiceover]: It's been a long night. Had a few difficult clients. Worked a lot of hours. I can't do this anymore. I can't.

...

Doctor: From the tests we've run today...and these are just preliminary calculations, but one of them in particular is fairly accurate. It's a liver function test. I guarantee in the very near future she's going to need a liver transplant. That's for sure. It's happening, John. It's coming, okay? But I have to be very honest with you. The way she is right now, I would have very little confidence she would even get that far. She's systematically killing herself slowly every day.

...

Jean [watching John filming her]: What are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing, John? Where are they? I know you fuckin' took 'em. Give them to me. Give them to me!!!
[she lunges toward him]
Jean: Why can't you just leave me alone and mind your own fucking business?! Why can't everyone just leave me alone and mind their own fucking business?!!!

...

John [after Jean had smashed all the plates]: So, how we gonna get new plates?
Jean: I don't know.
John: I'm gonna buy the new plates, Ma. I'm gonna go out and work my arse off for the rest of the week, driving a taxi. And what are you gonna do? You're gonna drink and drink and drink, and you're gonna pass out on that bed. But I'm gonna go out and work
to buy those new plates so we can have something to eat off. So we're not eating off the table.
Jean: You're a good boy, John.

...

Shane: You shoulda came, man. You still can. Internet's all loaded up there on the laptop. All it is, is a click. New start.
John: Can't. Just too much going on.

...

John: It's been a long night. Had a few difficult clients. Worked a lot of hours. I can't do this anymore. I can't.

...

Jean: You think I'm a fuckup, don't you?
John: No. I think you're sick.
Jean [scoffing]: You think I'm what?
John: You're sick, Ma.
Jean: You don't know anything about me, John.
John: Well, I'd like to know more about you.
Jean: Nothin' good to know about me, John.
[after a pause]
Jean: Okay, then, what do you want to know?

Of course: The backstory.

John: Why do you hate Kit so much?
Jean: I don't hate Kit. I just find it hard to love him. Sometimes a mother just doesn't bond with her child. It's unexplainable. Happens more than you'd like to think, John. It's life.

...

Jean [to John]: We loved to go dancing, me and your da. We'd dance all night long, just the two of us together. No one else would matter. It was just us. Us against the world. We thought, "This was it." We didn't think it would become us against us.

...

Jean: The thing you don't realize, John, is I have no one to dance with me anymore. I'm alone and will be for the rest of my life.

...

John: We need to go inside, Ma. We're late as it is.
Jean: I'm not goin' in.
Jean: I'm not doin' it. Can't.
John: Just give it a go.
Jean: No.
Jean: No, John. It's none of their business.
John [finally exploding]: Well, it's my fucking business, all right? It's my business, and 'm fuckin' sick of it! I'm sick of cleaning up your vomit! I'm sick of dragging you in off the doorstep like a fuckin' animal every night! It's embarrassing me! It's embarrassing me!
I'm sick of watching you walking around that corner to work every morning and not knowin' whether you're gonna come home or whether I'm gonna find you in two weeks face down in a fuckin' ditch somewhere! And I can't live like that anymore, Ma! I'm sick of it! I'm fuckin' sick of it! Sick of it! Sick of it! I will not fuckin' do it anymore! You're breakin' my heart every fuckin' day, and I can't take it! I can't take it, Ma!

...

John: The woman that I live with in that house is not my mum. She's not my mum. She's a stranger. And I won't live there with her anymore! I want you to watch this.
[he shows her a video of herself screeching for the booze she can't find]
John: Now, that woman is not my mother. My mother laughs and smiles. She's full of life. That is not my mother. That is a fuckin' animal and an impostor. And one that I will not live with anymore!

...

Jim: This place is government-run. We're on a bread-and-water diet. They got us on a drip feed. I can only keep her here for, like, seven to eight days at the very most. And I promise you I will do that. And I'll give her all the facilities that we have got. But she's got to find somewhere else after those seven days.
John: I can't afford it. I'm trying really hard. I'm trying to get the hours at work, but I can't.

...

Man [on phone]: You got the money?
John: Yeah, thanks.
Man: Did it help?
John: Yeah.
Man: I can trust you now?
John: Yeah.

...

Man: I need you to take care of something. It's delicate. Bring it to me. John?
John: Yeah, okay, I'll do it.
Man: I'll text you the details.

...

John [voiceover]: It's been a long night. Had a few difficult clients. Worked a lot of hours. I can't do this anymore. I can't.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

Witchcraft. Black magic. Possession. Dost thou believe in them?

Nope, not me. But others do. And it is what others believe to be true that motivates them to behave as they do. And when they behave as they do that may or may not have consequences [good or bad] for my own life.

So, in this world the supernatural [including God and the Devil] need not actually exist in order to ramify "for all practical purposes".

Escpecially back in 1630. A hell lot more people were a hell of a lot more inclined toward things like a belief in witches. Here a familly falls apart at the seams -- viciously turning on each other -- as they react to things they cannot explain. As they react to their own spiraling misfortunes.

Religion in a nutshell. Here though you not only have to believe in the same God, but believe in Him in the one and only officially sanctioned -- authoritarian -- way. You're almost better off being an atheist than a heretic.

And life is hard. Really hard. And really, really precarious. And one can well understand why God and religion would be of particular consolation. Otherwise there is just the perennial misery and toil...and no reason for it.

By and large, you will find few films on this thread that encompass supernatural elements. Still, there are films that do and they are truly exceptional. Well worth watching.

And this is one of them. At RT it garnered an 88% fresh rating on 252 reviews. On the other hand, the "audience score" at RT was only 55%.

Also, in one sense this film may as well be based on a true story:

Most of the film's dialogue and story were based on writings from the time.

As for the ending, well, your reaction no doubt will revolve around your religious convictions. I found it all rather uplifting. Thomasin freed from the shackles of her insufferable parents, freed from the shackles of their insufferable God. If only supernaturally.

IMDb

The premise is based on America's first witch hysteria in colonial New England, set 62 years before the infamous "Salem Witch Trials" which occurred in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

There were more scenes planned to involve Black Phillip, but because he wasn't as well trained as planned, the ideas had to be scratched.

The Satanic Temple has endorsed this movie and hosted several screenings of the film. Their spokesperson, Jex Blackmore, addressed the film as "an impressive presentation of Satanic insight that will inform contemporary discussion of religious experience."

The language the witches use in the film is mainly Enochian.

at wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witch_(2015_film)
Trailer: https://youtu.be/iQXmlf3Sefg

The Witch [The VVitch: A New-England Folktale -- original title] 2015
Written and directed by Robert Eggers

William [before the court]: What went we out into this wilderness to find? Leaving our country, kindred, our fathers houses? We have travailed a vast ocean. For what? For what?
Governor: We must ask thee to be silent!
William: Was it not for the pure and faithful dispensation of the Gospels, and the Kingdom of God?
Old Slater: No More! We are your judges, and not you ours!
William: I cannot be judged by false Christians, for I have done nothing, save preach Christ's true Gospel.
Governor: Must you continue to dishonor the laws of the commonwealth and the church with your prideful conceit?
William: If my conscience sees it fit.
Governor: Then shall you be banished out of this plantations liberties!
William: I would be glad of it.
Governor: Then take your leave, and trouble us no further.
William: How sadly hath The Lord testified against you.
William [turning to leave]: Katherine...

...

Thomasin [praying]: I will confess Jehovah with all heart in secret and in assembly of the just. Great are the works of our Lord Jehovah, sought out of all that in them do delight. I here confess I have lived in sin. I have been idle of my work, disobedient of mine parents, neglectful of my prayer. I have, in secret, played upon thy sabbath, and broken every one of thy commandments in thought...followed the desires of my own will, and not the holy Spirit. I know I deserve all shame and misery in this life, and everlasting hell-fire. But I beg thee, for the sake of thy Son. Forgive me. Show me mercy. Show me Thy light.

...

William: Caleb, our harvest cannot last the winter. We must capture our food if we cannot grow it. We will conquer this wilderness. It will not consume us.

...

William: Art thou then born a sinner?
Caleb: Aye. I was conceived in sin, and born in iniquity.
William: And, what is thy birth sin?
Caleb: Adam's sin imputed to me, and a corrupt nature dwelling within me.
William: Well-remembered Caleb. Very well. And canst thou tell me what thy corrupt nature is?
Caleb: My corrupt nature is empty of grace, bent unto sin, only unto sin, and that continually.

...

Caleb: Was Samuel born in sinner?
William: Aye.
Caleb: How might then...
William: We pray he hath entered God's Kingdom.
Caleb: What wickedness hath he done?
William: Place faith in God, Caleb. We'll speak no more on thy brother.

...

William [after Mercy has accused Thomasin of being a witch]: On thy knees! Look me in the eye daughter. Dost thou love the word of God?
Thomisan: Yes!
William: Love you The Bible? Love you Prayer?
Thomasin: Yes! Yes!
William: We are children of sin all, yet I tell thee, I have raised up no witch in this house.

...

Thomasin: I am no witch, father!
William: What did I but see in my house?
Thomasin: Will you not hear me?
Williasm: I prithee, confess...
Thomasin: Why have you turned against me?
William: Christ can unwitch us if you will but speak the truth to me. As I love thee, speak truth!
Thomasin: You ask me to speak truth?
William: I beg thee!
Thomasin: You and Mother are planned to rid the farm of me. Aye. I heard you speak of it. Is that truth? You took of Mothers cup and let her rail at me. You confessed not till it was too late. Is that truth?
William: Peace thee.
Thomasin: I will not.
William: I am thy father!
Thomasin: You are a hypocrite!
William: Hold thy tongue Daughter of mine!
Thomasin: You took Caleb to The Wood and let me take the blame of that too. Is that truth? You cannot bring the crops to yield! You cannot hunt! Is that truth enough?
William: Enough!
Thomasin: You cannot bring the crops to yield! You cannot hunt! Thou canst do nothing save cut wood!
William: Bitch!

...

Thomasin: Are you witches?
Jonas: Does father think I am?
Mercy: Are you?
[she motions toward Black Phillip]
Thomasin: Does he really speak to thee?

...

William: Corruption, thou art my father!

...

Thomasin: Black Phillip, I conjure thee to speak to me. Speak as thou dost speak to Jonas and Mercy. Dost thou understand my English tongue? Answer me.
Black Phillip: What dost thou want?
Thomasin: What canst thou give?
Black Phillip: Wouldst thou like the taste of butter and pretty dress? Wouldst thou like to live deliciously?
Thomasin: Yes.
Black Phillip: Wouldst thou like to see the world?
Thomasin: What will you from me?
Black Phillip: Dost thou see a book before thee?... Remove thy shift.
Thomasin: I cannot write my name.
Black Phillip: I will guide thy hand.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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Posts: 36498
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:03 pm
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### Re: philosophy in film

Mental illness. It is always going to be far more difficult to diagnose and to treat than most physical ailments. After all, somatic afflictions generally involve the sort of symptoms that can be readily detected using any number of tests that have been perfected over the centuries.

Like for instance Catherine's breast cancer.

But when the symptoms originate in the brain -- in the "mind" -- and involve emotional and psychological states that revolve around "anxiety, depression and mood disorder" who is to say -- really say -- what is going on?

At least with afflictions like schizophrenia there seems to be more science behind it. The brain going haywire chemically or neurologically. It just seems that with "mood disorders" the mix between nature and nurture is likely to be far, far, far more problematic. The part that's "in your head", the part that's "out in the world". And one can imagine any number of circumstances in which it simply makes sense that one might be anxious or depressed.

And even in this day and age there is still a stigma attached to those said to have "mental problems". Particularly around certain segments of the population prone to, among other things, ignorance regarding things they do not understand.

Or to things said not to be "normal".

Consequently, if someone that you love sinks down into this particular morass, how far would you be willing to go to defend him, to protect him, to bring him back around to...to what exactly?

Also, what are your options? And, come on, don't you always have more in, say, the upper middle class?

You wonder then what the anthropological evidence is here. To what extent are the Tims of the world found cross-culturally?

Based on a true story.

IMDb

Based on the multi-award winning film Illness (2013).

no wiki entry
trailer: https://youtu.be/45pbZn_ty7U

NO LETTING GO [2015]
Written in part and directed by Jonathan D. Bucari

Dr Slater: Do you have any idea why mommy brought you here today?
Tim [who is ten]: I guess it's because sometimes I just don't act so great. I just can't help it.
Dr Slater: What do you mean?
Tim: Well, sometimes I get kind of worried.
Dr Slater: Okay. Well, I'm a doctor, and it's my job to help you understand those worried feelings a little bit better.
Tim: So you're like a feelings doctor?

...

Dr Slater: Do you know what the word "anxiety" means?
Tim: Not really.
Dr Slater: Well, people feel anxiety when they have lots of worry in their brains and it makes them feel bad insisde. You know what I call those kinds of bad thoughts? Junk thoughts.

Dr Slater: Think of junk thoughts as a bully. If you give in to a bully what usually happens?
Tim: They just keep bullying you.
Dr Slater: Exactly. Junk thoughts are the same way. You have to stand up to them and tell them that you are not afraid.

Simple, right?

Henry: He needs to stick things out.
Catherine: I don't think that being tougher is the answer.
Henry: Obviously.
Catherine [angrily]: What?
Henry: I don't think all this expensive therapy is paying off because I think he thinks he can get away with it. And he knows it.
Catherine: You know what, Henry? I've grounded him. I've taken away his favorite things and I've bribed him, and I've used those stupid sticker charts! You're never home. You don't know how hard I try. And I'm exhausted. And you know what, if I'm such a terrible mother than how come Kyle and Jessie don't act this way too?

...

Catherine: Kyle, Tim's just having a bad day.
Kyle: He's always having a bad day. You shouldn't let him get away with acting like that. Are you gonna ground him?
Catherine: You let me worry about Tim, okay? I am the mom.
Kyle: Yeah, well, clearly that isn't working out very well, is it?

...

Catherine: I can't even get him out of the house anymore.
Dr. Slater: Well, I rarely recommend medication, but Tim is severely depressed. Therapy alone just isn't enough.
Henry: I surely don't understand why this is happening.
Dr. Slater: Look, anxiety and depression are often co-occuring. One can often exaserbate the other.

Psychiatrist: We'll start him on a very small dose at first. See how he does. Increase it gradually. I'll need to see him every two weeks to monitor him. Common side effects can include drowsiness, dizziness, insomnia, nausea, weight gain, weight loss, diarrhea, constipation...
[the camera shifts to Catherine's face while the doctor drones on: It perfectly captures that look of bewilderment and resignation]

...

Catherine: God, how did I not know that kids could have anxiety or depression for no reason.
Henry: Well, they didn't have that sort of stuff when we were growing up.

Now that you mention it, we didn't either. Not in my neighborhoods.

Henry: I can't take it amymore.
Catherine: Okay, look! He eventually calms down. If you just leave him alone, Henry.
Henry: Just leave him alone. This must be advice coming from the therapist. Just ignore it, right?
Catherine: Look, she says it's no use trying to talk to him when he's irrational like this, okay? It will just escalate the situation.
Henry: It'll just escalate, right. Just if we ignore it. Don't do anything. THERE'S GOT TO BE SOMETHING WE CAN DO!
Catherine: Alright. The psychiatrist did give me another medication to use. When he gets out of control like this.
Henry: Well, that's good news. Another medication....

...

Therapist: I recommend that we take him off the escitalopram and put him on a mood stabilizer.
Catherine: A "mood stabilizer"?
Therapist: Based on what you're describing, I would have to say that your son has bipolar disorder.

...

Henry: Maybe it's time for another opinion.
Catherine: Funny you should say that because I've been trying to get an appointment with another psychiatrist, but it's three months.
Henry: Three months? You gotta be kidding me.
Catherine: Yeah, apparently there are more taxidermistas in this country then there are child psychiatrists.

...

Psychiatrist: So, can you describe what it looks like when Tim gets upset?
Catherine: Okay, his eyes change. Like he becomes a different person. He's irrational. Sometimes he can get violent...but he never hurts anyone. And I don't think he would, but he threatens to, and he breaks a lot of things.
Psychiatrist: How long do these episodes last. And how often do they last?
Catherine: It varies. It can happen several times a day and last for hours. I think the hardest part for me is when the rage is over. And he says he feels so terrible and he talks of dying. He's not a bad kid. He's the sweetest, kindest boy.
Psychiatrist: Well, he still is Catherine. He doesn't want to misbehave. He's in pain. I mean I just noticed in my sessions with him, his moods change rapidly. He has a very high anxiety level. And he knows that he can't predict it, he can't control it. So he doesn't want to go anywhere. He doesn't want to leave the house. I mean, that's gotta be scary.
Henry: I don't understand, doctor. This kid is taking up to 30 pills a day and he seems to be getting worse and worse. Now, there's gotta be some medication out there that can fix all this.
Psychiatrist: You would think that, you would think this but there is no magic pill. And everyone reacts differently to every different medication.

...

Psychiatrist: Timothy has an illness. Do you really understand that? I think that he would thrive in a highly structured environment.
Catherine: What do you mean?
Psychiatrist: Well, you've said yourself the slightest change in schedule or disappointment can throw him off...It is humanly impossible for you to provide him with the structure that he needs in your home. He needs a therapeutic environment. He needs to be surrounded by professionals who can help him 24 hours a day.

A "residential treatment facility". Which Catherine flat out rejects. At first.

Henry [after Caterine storms out of the room]: Let me ask you something. If this was your son, what would you do?
Psychiatrist: It's hard, yeah. But I think if Tim were my son, I would...I'd put him into the residential treatment center.
Henry: How long are we talking about? And what are the costs?
Psychiatrist: Well, it's about a year and it's expensive. It's in the six figures. It's not nothing.

Maybe Obamacare will cover it.

...

Kyle: Who's going to tell Tim?

...

Title card: 1 in 5 children lives with a mental health condition, affecting 14 million children in the US alone. Only 20% of those diagnosed receive treatment.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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iambiguous
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### Re: philosophy in film

Imagine being at the intersection of the American Dream and the Manson family.

How would you even begin to encompass it?

Here's one way: Two brothers tour Charles Manson murder sites. One is a devoted family man. One is devoted to The Family.

After all, how do you really go about describing post-modern America unless you at least try to reconcile the two. Or argue that the two have absolutely nothing in common at all.

But Charles Manson [and explaining him] has always been somewhat of an obsession here in America:

Title card: In 1969, Charles Manson was imprisoned for orchestrating the notorious Tate-LaBianca murders. To this day, Manson remains a source of public fascination, receiving an estimated 60,000 letters each year.

Here are two brothers that, over the years, have become...estranged. One can hardly imagine them being more different. Nick being straight out of the heartland and Conrad being straight out of, well, it's not the heartland that's for sure.

Nick is as straight as they come, Conrad as crooked. Some will identitfy with one more than the other. And some [like me] will more or less identify with both. So, basically, this is an exploration into the the ties that bind. Or the lack of ties that don't. It's about how the past and present become inextricably intertwined in the dynamics of any one particular family. And families like this one are few and far between.

It's that part bursing at the seams with dasein.

Anyway, can Charlie Manson reconcile the two? Or, perhaps, Blackbird and Sunshine?

On the other hand, is that something that anyone else would even care about?

Trust me: You're gonna wonder just how much of this movie is based on what is in fact true about Manson and his followers today. For example, was the Conrad character based on any one of the children that Manson is said to have fathered? Is that part actually true?

Where are Manson's kids now? http://laist.com/2007/10/30/where_are_manso.php

IMDb

Was funded via a Kickstarter campaign, where it received $40,607,$607 more than the target: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kickstarter

Charles Manson has been imprisoned since late 1969. Assuming 40-year-old Conrad was conceived before Manson was imprisoned, this film must take place in 2010 or earlier.

no wiki entry
trailer: https://youtu.be/geP6RMJRqOc

MANSON FAMILY VACATION [2015]
Written and directed by J. Davis

Reporter [interviewing Manson in prison]: I've heard that you get a lot of letters from kids. Have you gotten these kind of visits and letters from kids that you don't know?
Manson: Sure.
Reporter: Why do you think these kids write you?
Manson: Because I am those kids. I am a child. I never grew up. I never lived in your society. I never went to school. I never had a mother and father. I raised myself up.
Reporter: What do you think it is about you that makes people want to be a part of whatever it is you're a part of?
[suddenly Manson leaps to his feet moving about frenetically, spasmodically]
Manson: I'm brand new. Everything I do is always brand new.

...

Amanda: You okay?
Nick: I'm good. Expect for the fact that our son Max is a sociopath.

Max it seems is obsessed -- really obsessed -- with death.

Amanda: I think it'll be fun. It'll be the first time we've spent real quality time with him since...probably...well, probably our wedding.
Nick: Oh, my God.
Amanda: What?
Nick: The wedding gift that he gave us? That...thing.
Amanda: Oh. Oh, Fuck!

...

Nick: Uh, yeah, I know who Charles Manson is.
Conrad: Well, there are these sites all around the city, um, that I was hoping we could go to. I have it all mapped out. It's amazing 'cause, like, no one knows that, like, right there, you know, that's the LaBianca house, you know. Or the Tate house.
Nick: Wait, these are the murder site houses?
Conrad: You... You're acting so uptight, this is a thing people do.
Nick: No, they don't. No, this is the thing that weird conspiracy people do. Trust me, I have friends that come into LA all the time. We've never...Manson has never even come up.

...

Nick [listening to a news report on the Manson murders]: "Charles Manson set into motion a wave of terror in Southern California. In two nights, Manson's murderous spree took the lives of at least seven people, including actress Sharon Tate. Manson was portrayed as a guitar-playing ex-convict with a following of runaway young women, his so-called family members. The cult, or family, spoke of launching a holy war against the rich and the powerful. The Tate-LaBiance murders were bizarre and merciless. They triggered a public panic and raised the specter of drug-crazed youths slaughtering their victims at random.

...

Conrad [with Nick where the Sharon Tate house once used to be]: Oh, my God! This is probably the same pole that Tex climbed up. See, they thought there was gonna be an alarm, so he climbed up with wire cutters, and he snipped all the wires. He jumped over, and then right then there was this young kid driving away. He was just randomly there that night. Never been there before. And Tex, like, starts stabbing him through the window. But he scooches back, put his hands up. So Tex has to shoot him four times in the chest.
Nick: Okay. You know what? I'm gonna go back to the car.

...

Nick: Charles Manson killed people right here. You have to be fucking respectful about that.
Conrad: He wasn't even here that night. He wasn't at the Tate house or the LaBianca. He didn't kill anyone.
Nick: Then why is he in jail for murder?
Conrad: Exactly! I mean, it was a fucking conspiracy....It's because of his ideas. They couldn't have someone that free being, living out amongst us, 'cause it would make everyone else feel like that.

Of course that isn't entirely true, is it?

Conrad: So, wait, before we go, I got to tell you, um, this table that we're sitting at...This very same table. This is the same booth that they ate at before they went home that night.
Nick: Who? What are you talking about?
Conrad: Sharon Tate and her friends. They ate here before that same night they went home. And then, Tex and the girls came.
Nick: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Got it. Got it. So that's why we're here.
Conrad: Oh, come on. It's just a fun fact.
Nick: You think it's a fun fact, but it's not. I mean, it's, like, really disturbing.
Conrad: Okay, I'm sorry, but I mean, it is something that I've been thinking about that...I mean, a lot of people ignore death, and it's something to think about and not just shove away.
Nick: Are you... Do you hear yourself right now? I mean, you... You're talking about not ignoring death, and embracing it.

See? How do you reconcile that?

Conrad [to Nick]: This is the LaBianca house, man. Holy shit! Come on. Come on. I bet the kitchen is on this side, and the kitchen is key here, okay? Because that's where they wrote on the fridge in blood, "Helter Skelter".

...

Conrad [posing as the LaBianca's grandson!]: I'm sure this is not a subject you're fond of, but I was just wondering, you know, after what happened here, do you ever feel, like, you know, just creeped out, you know?
Janice: No. Not really. It is strange, knowing that Charles Manson was actually in the house.
Nick: Wait. What? Charles Manson was in the house?
Janice: Yes. He's the one who broke in.
Nick [looking at Conrad]: That's weird, because I had heard that Charles Manson was not a part of the murders at all.
Conrad: Well, no, he just came in and tied them up, but he wasn't part of the murders.

...

Janice [to Conrad]: A horrible thing happened here! And you want to celebrate that?! Haven't you ever lost anyone?

...

Nick: I personally think that you expected Dad to do everything for you as a kid. But, like.. .
Conrad: No, just to love me, maybe.
Nick: He's an army guy, all right? And he has, you know, he has that power thing, and that's part of his setup. Like, you had to add that to that a little bit, if you want...
Conrad: That's not love. That's not raising someone to be their own person. That's making a little fucking clone.
Nick: So, uh, so what, I'm dad's little soldier? That's basically how you see me?

...

Conrad [to Nick]: You know, Dad wasn't the only one in the family who treated me like a fucking outcast, okay? You did your fair share of treating me like a piece of shit.

...

Manson [being interviewed in prison]: I'm just a messenger of the truth.
Reporter: God's messenger?
Manson: Life's messenger. But we use the word "God". "God" hooks all the other words up. I'm the pope. I'm ten times the pope. I'm 50 times the pope. But I'm the pope in the hills and the mountains. I'm already out of here. This enclosure here? I'm out of here. My body is stuck here, but my thought is already gone.

...

Nick: What are you guys talking about?
Conrad: Oh, nothing, just hanging out, playing...
Max: We're reading Helter Skelter. There's really cool pictures of dead people.
[Nick, furious, drags Conrad out of the house]
Conrad: All right, before you start, I was just looking at the book, he asked me questions. He's curious. What am I gonna fucking say?
Nick: You're showing him dead bodies?
Nick: You're showing him the Manson family? What else are you gonna show him?
Conrad: I'm sorry, but he's the one who kept asking me questions.
Nick: He's a child. He's gonna want to do whatever you want to do. You just say no. If he wants to look at it you just say no. That's what you do.
Conrad: Why? I'm not gonna fucking lie to him.
Nick: Why don't you just open up Internet fucking porn and show him everything that's out there.
[Conrad breaks out in a fit of laughter]
Nick: It's not funny, dude. He's having a really hard time and I don't need you putting your shit on him.
Conrad: Okay. Well, why is he having a hard time?
Nick: "Why is he having a hard time?" He's a child. Growing up is hard. People have hard times.
Conrad: Okay, yeah. It has nothing to do with like how you treat him?
Nick: You are so fucking clueless right now, you have no idea what you're talking about...Oh, my God, dude. You are so fucking out of touch with reality. I can't even deal with it.

...

Nick [after Conrad puts a CD in the car stereo]: Who's this?
Nick: Yeah, it's pretty good.
Conrad: It's Charlie. That's him singing! Oh, it was his main thing. He was so into music. That's what he wanted to do. Like, in LA, he knew Neil Young, and like, Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys really liked him. He was so close to getting a record contract....

...

Conrad [motioning toward a man in the bar]: That's Blackbird. That's him. I'm gonna check it out.
Nick: Why is this girl in the photograph wearing a Manson t-shirt?
Nick: Yeah. She's wearing the same t- shirt that you had on.
Conrad: I...I hadn't noticed that. I'm gonna just go over and talk to him.
Nick: Wait, wait a second. What the fuck is going on?

...

Nick: You're coming out here to work with Charles Manson?
Nick: See, I knew.
Conrad: I fucking bring up Charles Manson and you fucking freak out.
Nick: Everybody freaks out! Everybody freaks out when you bring up Charles Manson!

...

Conrad: Holy shit. Is that what I think it is?
Blackbird: Sure is.
Nick: What is it?
Blackbird: It's the bus. The Manson family bus.

...

Blackbird: Charlie drove everywhere in this bus. Drove all over California, stopped by the side of the road, picked up kids that had been kicked out of their homes, you know.
Conrad: Yeah. He helped a lot of people.
Blackbird: You know, this world is more of a mess now even than it was then. We got these guys down at Washington, can't get out of their own way. Rich people, snacking on the poor. We got fire coming out of our water faucets 'cause of all the fracking that's going on. We got fish belly-up in the rivers and streams. We do a lot of talking about it. But we're not doing very much about any of those things.

...

Blackbird: You know, maybe you don't know this, but old Charlie, he had quite a few kids. And they locked him up and they took all the kids away. And they put them with new families. Like yours.
Nick: Yeah, I think my parents would have known. I mean, they have to reveal that legally.
Blackbird: They didn't reveal anything back then. Nothing. Conrad was a ward of the state and he was adopted just like a normal kid.
[he points to a photo on the wall]
Blackbird: See that baby? That's your brother.

...

Man: Hey, Conrad, Charlie's on the phone.

...

...

Nick: I wanna see my brother.
Sunshine: I don't think he wants to see you.
Nick [shouting into the house]: Connie!
Sunshine: He went to visit Charlie. Connie's dad.

...

Reporter [interveiwing Manson in prison]: Somewhere out there, there's at least one son, that we know of, that's your child. Look in that camera. What would you say to that kid? What do you say to your son out there? This could be the first time he's ever seeing his father. What do you say to him?
Manson: You gotta catch it on your own, boy. Train's hard. The road's rough.
Reporter: And that's it?
Manson: That's all I knew. That's all anyone ever told me. And you wanna hear something? He'll do it better than me. Whatever he does. He'll do it a little better. Kids do, don't they? Yeah. That's what makes them such a gas. They always seem to get through.
He was like a man who wanted to change all; and could not; so burned with his impotence; and had only me, an infinitely small microcosm to convert or detest. John Fowles

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Then here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=185296
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iambiguous
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