Why are Christians so evasive?

[Ichthus]

Mutcer,

I answered u in ur omniscience/omnipotence thread but you ... evaded? ... my answer.

I won't turn that into a stereotype, though.

Here's a bunch of examples who defy the stereotype u try to put on all Christians:

http://www.ichthus77.blogspot.com/p/bloglist.html

btw...try plugging ur questions into the search engine in that link

[Ichthus]

How wonderful that humans have a perfect example of what it means to live well - perfectly!

We can't live like Jesus. Example, we are not born of a virgin. That is the example we are left with concerning Jesus : We can't be like him.

I was waiting for someone to misunderstand me in this exact way.
Not once did I say we should live the life Jesus lived identically. It is impossible because we are not perfect. God knows we are not perfect. God is omnipotent, he knows all the sins of our flesh before we do them. So why would he send an unattainable goal down for us to pursue? God is not so hateful. Jesus is an example. He is an example of God working through the flesh 100%. We will inherent the kingdom of heaven if we only try to live well. To acknowledge Jesus' perfection and simply apply it in our daily lives. That is all God wants of us! That is the key!

Hey I disagree but don't want to talk about it here. You want to PM with me about it or shall we start a new thread? Don't want to debate for the sake of debate, though.

[felix dakat]

Mutcer

I don't know why Christians are evasive. My theory is they are evasive because when confronted with the type of questions I tend to ask, it forces them to accept the worst possible thing - the possibility that their belief may be wrong.

You haven't demonstrated that Christians are any more evasive than anyone else. If you present valid evidence that such is the case, then it would be appropriate to investigate why.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

You haven't demonstrated that Christians are any more evasive than anyone else. If you present valid evidence that such is the case, then it would be appropriate to investigate why.

Well I've noticed, in many cases, that when Christians cease to be evasive they aren't long for the group they are in. Witnessed just this case, with a particular brother, not that long ago.

[felix dakat]

You haven't demonstrated that Christians are any more evasive than anyone else. If you present valid evidence that such is the case, then it would be appropriate to investigate why.

Well I've noticed, in many cases, that when Christians cease to be evasive they aren't long for the group they are in. Witnessed just this case, with a particular brother, not that long ago.

No doubt some Christians are evasive some of the time. Been around any non-Christians lately? Any of them evasive? No doubt some Non-Christians are evasive some of the time. Aren't all humans more or less evasive? Do you or Mutcer have an evasiveness scale that you are measuring people on? Is it a valid scale? How many people have you tested with it? How do Christians stack up on it versus non-Christians? How do you determine which is which? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Moreno]

You haven't demonstrated that Christians are any more evasive than anyone else. If you present valid evidence that such is the case, then it would be appropriate to investigate why.

Well I've noticed, in many cases, that when Christians cease to be evasive they aren't long for the group they are in. Witnessed just this case, with a particular brother, not that long ago.

No doubt some Christians are evasive some of the time. Been around any non-Christians lately? Any of them evasive? No doubt some Non-Christians are evasive some of the time. Aren't all humans more or less evasive? Do you or Mutcer have an evasiveness scale that you are measuring people on? Is it a valid scale? How many people have you tested with it? How do Christians stack up on it versus non-Christians? How do you determine which is which?

Also the thread rather than the title seems to be focused on their evading or getting angry at the kind of dialogue that Mutcer offers them.

This raises the issue of what he is doing, how it comes across (what it seems like his goal is), what happens in the early stages of the interaction that they later evade, how respectful he seems and so on.

A quality is being attached to a group in a universal contextless way in the title of the thread, but actually this is a conclusion being drawn from a very specific, individual dynamic.

I mean, why am I evasive when Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door? (is it because Satan controls my mind? does it mean that I cannot deal with the truth they are offering me? Why am I evasive with telephone salespeople - or machine callers!!!? is it because their deals are so good I feel guilty about accepting them? Is it because I irrationally cling to high telephone bills?

[Mutcer]

Mutcer

I don't know why Christians are evasive. My theory is they are evasive because when confronted with the type of questions I tend to ask, it forces them to accept the worst possible thing - the possibility that their belief may be wrong.

You haven't demonstrated that Christians are any more evasive than anyone else. If you present valid evidence that such is the case, then it would be appropriate to investigate why.

I said it's my theory.

[James S Saint]

One might be tempted to ask why Christian-haters are no Evasive such as to ignore Christian answers to their questions.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

No doubt some Christians are evasive some of the time. Been around any non-Christians lately? Any of them evasive? No doubt some Non-Christians are evasive some of the time. Aren't all humans more or less evasive? Do you or Mutcer have an evasiveness scale that you are measuring people on? Is it a valid scale? How many people have you tested with it? How do Christians stack up on it versus non-Christians? How do you determine which is which? Inquiring minds want to know.

Okay, everyone is evasive at times. But this thread is about Christians being evasive.

I know cases of Christians being evasive that are still in that Christian cult I was in for a decade. They freely admit to me that they are evasive. They admit that they don't want to know or hear of any of the ugly hidden facts about their leader and group.

Why are they evasive? Because if they aren't they will not be long in that Christian cult. If found out, they will not be long in the group any longer.

So why are they evasive? Because they want to remain in the group.

My recent stint in a Church of Christ church also revealed that it is common, in that group, for members to be evasive. In Sunday School classes, during discussions, they are evasive of some of the obvious hard questions in the Bible. In fact, I got in trouble for failing to evade the hard questions. They just don't want to hear it. It's like there's a common commitment, in the church, to avoid the hard questions concerning God and the Bible ; like they agree to only offer support for God and the Bible, and evade everything else. It's a common commitment to fool each other ... and wear blinders (evasiveness) to every thing else.

[phyllo]

You think all Christians are evasive based on your experience with cult members?

[James S Saint]

I have yet to see the evidence that they are any more evasive than anyone else. As they very often offer apologetics forums, they seem to be less so than many such as the Jews and Physics Forums who refuse such open questioning.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

You think all Christians are evasive based on your experience with cult members?

Is the Church of Christ a cult? How about the Southern Baptists, where I was raised?

[felix dakat]

Okay, everyone is evasive at times. But this thread is about Christians being evasive.

Right but if it's human to be evasive, then Christians are evasive because they are human. Mutcer's question is answered.

I know cases of Christians being evasive that are still in that Christian cult I was in for a decade. They freely admit to me that they are evasive. They admit that they don't want to know or hear of any of the ugly hidden facts about their leader and group.

Why are they evasive? Because if they aren't they will not be long in that Christian cult. If found out, they will not be long in the group any longer.

So why are they evasive? Because they want to remain in the group.

But are they more evasive than anyone else? How would we measure the difference?

My recent stint in a Church of Christ church also revealed that it is common, in that group, for members to be evasive. In Sunday School classes, during discussions, they are evasive of some of the obvious hard questions in the Bible. In fact, I got in trouble for failing to evade the hard questions. They just don't want to hear it. It's like there's a common commitment, in the church, to avoid the hard questions concerning God and the Bible ; like they agree to only offer support for God and the Bible, and evade everything else. It's a common commitment to fool each other ... and wear blinders (evasiveness) to every thing else.

Are the Sunday school students children? If so, they may want to avoid hard questions until the children have the intellectual development necessary to handle abstractions.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Are the Sunday school students children? If so, they may want to avoid hard questions until the children have the intellectual development necessary to handle abstractions.

Well the pastor told me I was trying to feed meat to milk drinkers. But they are adults with grown kids. It's an adult class. Guess they are gonna die as milk drinkers. They're evasive about meat.

[Moreno]

No doubt some Christians are evasive some of the time. Been around any non-Christians lately? Any of them evasive? No doubt some Non-Christians are evasive some of the time. Aren't all humans more or less evasive? Do you or Mutcer have an evasiveness scale that you are measuring people on? Is it a valid scale? How many people have you tested with it? How do Christians stack up on it versus non-Christians? How do you determine which is which? Inquiring minds want to know.

Okay, everyone is evasive at times. But this thread is about Christians being evasive.

I know cases of Christians being evasive that are still in that Christian cult I was in for a decade. They freely admit to me that they are evasive. They admit that they don't want to know or hear of any of the ugly hidden facts about their leader and group.

Why are they evasive? Because if they aren't they will not be long in that Christian cult. If found out, they will not be long in the group any longer.

So why are they evasive? Because they want to remain in the group.

My recent stint in a Church of Christ church also revealed that it is common, in that group, for members to be evasive. In Sunday School classes, during discussions, they are evasive of some of the obvious hard questions in the Bible. In fact, I got in trouble for failing to evade the hard questions. They just don't want to hear it. It's like there's a common commitment, in the church, to avoid the hard questions concerning God and the Bible ; like they agree to only offer support for God and the Bible, and evade everything else. It's a common commitment to fool each other ... and wear blinders (evasiveness) to every thing else.

But nearly everyone whose beliefs include beliefs in particular individuals avoid encountering data that would compromise this. If their beliefs do not depend on beliefs in certain individuals nearly everyone evades data that contradicts their beliefs. People have a very hard time, in general, with cognitive dissonence.

[Moreno]

Mutcer

I don't know why Christians are evasive. My theory is they are evasive because when confronted with the type of questions I tend to ask, it forces them to accept the worst possible thing - the possibility that their belief may be wrong.

You haven't demonstrated that Christians are any more evasive than anyone else. If you present valid evidence that such is the case, then it would be appropriate to investigate why.

I said it's my theory.

So back up the theory

[James S Saint]

A Reason for Religion to be Evasive.

[phyllo]

You think all Christians are evasive based on your experience with cult members?

Is the Church of Christ a cult? How about the Southern Baptists, where I was raised?

I don't know much about these sects.
It seems that your 10 years in the cult is a major influence on your current thinking. Maybe if you had not been in the cult, then you would not see Christians, in general, as being evasive.
Did you think the SBC Christians were evasive when you were growing up? Do you think they were, now that you reflect on it?

[phyllo]

Well the pastor told me I was trying to feed meat to milk drinkers. But they are adults with grown kids. It's an adult class. Guess they are gonna die as milk drinkers. They're evasive about meat.

The pastor said that.
If I was to read between the lines ... I would think that these are adult students - they have just learned something, they have not thought about very deeply, they do not feel confident discussing it and they don't want to appear foolish.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Well the pastor told me I was trying to feed meat to milk drinkers. But they are adults with grown kids. It's an adult class. Guess they are gonna die as milk drinkers. They're evasive about meat.

The pastor said that.
If I was to read between the lines ... I would think that these are adult students - they have just learned something, they have not thought about very deeply, they do not feel confident discussing it and they don't want to appear foolish.

I got in hot water in Sunday School class for pointing out that the NT says Peter was naked. A sister in the class freaked out and said I was making it up. The preacher was leading the class, and when she turned to him he shook his head yes and quoted book, chapter and verse. Then she freaked out and said, "Why would they put that in the Bible?"

And after class she continued her fit, and got other sisters stirred up. So I got a call afterwards from the preacher reminding me that I'm speaking to milk drinkers & kindergarteners. He told a sister in the class the same thing, also in private, but denied he ever said it when she confronted him in the meeting hall, when everyone was around to hear it. Duplicity is a more serious concern with Christians than being evasive,

Ironically, if you asked the class if the Bible is the Word of God they'll all say yes (their motto is, "No creed but Christ, no book but the Bible."). But based upon their lack of Bible knowledge they apparently don't think His words are important enough to read.

Their evasiveness is obviously of what they believe to be Gods' words. Why do they evade their God? That's the big question. Why do they even go to church? I told the preacher they go to church like they go to McDonald's. To pick up their hamburger and go home.

[innolan]

Their evasiveness is obviously of what they believe to be Gods' words. Why do they evade their God? That's the big question. Why do they even go to church? I told the preacher they go to church like they go to McDonald's. To pick up their hamburger and go home.

Christianity is an attempt to put God in a box. To make a religion that conforms rather than investigate.Belief without understanding.Truth and understanding is the light that many don't seek because there is so much they don't understand so they can't really believe with the faith necessary to effect change. Above all, get understanding.

[felix dakat]

Mutcer--

You have not defined what you mean by evasive or supplied one shred of evidence that any Christian is so.

You seem to be mainly interested in provocatively baiting Christians rather than actually talking to them. People don't like that kind of tactic, find it demeaning. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they recognize what you are doing and consequently don't want to talk to you. You, in turn, interpret their not wanting to talk to you as evasiveness.

If you were really interested in getting an answer to your question, you could consider how your behavior might contribute to the problem. But, you haven't shown that you are despite a number of opportunities and inquiries from people here. Consequently, this thread is going into the hall of questions.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Mutcer--

You have not defined what you mean by evasive or supplied one shred of evidence that any Christian is so.

You seem to be mainly interested in provocatively baiting Christians rather than actually talking to them. People don't like that kind of tactic, find it demeaning. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they recognize what you are doing and consequently don't want to talk to you. You, in turn, interpret their not wanting to talk to you as evasiveness.

If you were really interested in getting an answer to your question, you could consider how your behavior might contribute to the problem. But, you haven't shown that you are despite a number of opportunities and inquiries from people here. Consequently, this thread is going into the hall of questions.

The problem with this thread is the word "so." If the question was "Why are Christians evasive" then we could have a good discussion. But the word so distinguishes Christians, like they are more evasive than all other humans. And this can't be proven. That's where Mutcer blew it ... he went too far.

[Typist]

Christianity is an attempt to put God in a box. To make a religion that conforms rather than investigate. Belief without understanding.

"An attempt to put God in a box" is a great expression, well done on the word craft.

Although not a Christian myself (I was raised Catholic what seems 100 years ago) here's how I see the genius of the religion, and explain it's survival over 2,000 years, which is quite a pile of evidence.

The fundamental problem that we face as human beings is that we experience reality as being divided between "me" and "everything else". This is a very isolating experience which leads to all kinds of problems both personal and social.

Posters on forums tend to routinely focus on the theological assertions of Christianity, perhaps because that's a fun and easy game to play. To me, this is sort of missing the boat.

The Christian focus on service and "love thy neighbor as thyself" is a truly brilliant strategy for helping people overcome the psychological isolation that tends to dominate our lives. When this plan is actually followed, it's also a fantastic social policy.

Christians didn't invent the idea of being nice of course, but they seem to have marketed these concepts in a way that swept western civilization, and greatly influence us to this day. 2,000 years later. That's quite a marketing plan. I'd like to see the highly educated very very smart scientist who could accomplish anything even 5% as impressive.

The concept of God and all the stories that go along with it may be necessary to fuel the spread of this utterly sane core concept. We shouldn't blindly assume that we can keep Christian ideals while casually tossing their ideology in the trash.

2,000 years.

2,000 years.

This record of survival of course doesn't prove any particular theological assertion, but it is a HUGE pile of evidence that they are on to something, in some way or another.

[V-OutOfTheWilderness]

Christianity is an attempt to put God in a box. To make a religion that conforms rather than investigate. Belief without understanding.

"An attempt to put God in a box" is a great expression, well done on the word craft.

Although not a Christian myself (I was raised Catholic what seems 100 years ago) here's how I see the genius of the religion, and explain it's survival over 2,000 years, which is quite a pile of evidence.

The fundamental problem that we face as human beings is that we experience reality as being divided between "me" and "everything else". This is a very isolating experience which leads to all kinds of problems both personal and social.

Posters on forums tend to routinely focus on the theological assertions of Christianity, perhaps because that's a fun and easy game to play. To me, this is sort of missing the boat.

The Christian focus on service and "love thy neighbor as thyself" is a truly brilliant strategy for helping people overcome the psychological isolation that tends to dominate our lives. When this plan is actually followed, it's also a fantastic social policy.

Christians didn't invent the idea of being nice of course, but they seem to have marketed these concepts in a way that swept western civilization, and greatly influence us to this day. 2,000 years later. That's quite a marketing plan. I'd like to see the highly educated very very smart scientist who could accomplish anything even 5% as impressive.

The concept of God and all the stories that go along with it may be necessary to fuel the spread of this utterly sane core concept. We shouldn't blindly assume that we can keep Christian ideals while casually tossing their ideology in the trash.

2,000 years.

2,000 years.

This record of survival of course doesn't prove any particular theological assertion, but it is a HUGE pile of evidence that they are on to something, in some way or another.

The same pile of evidence, and more so, applies to Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, and to a slightly smaller pile, to Islam.

They are all onto something, as you say. Just what is that? How is it that certain templates have taken hold and others not? Why is our psyche shaped in such a way as to receive some templates and not others?

And is it changing and perhaps evolving. Does the human psyche evolve?

We better hope so. Because what we're "onto" isn't working all that well.