GOD=NATURE

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby turtle » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:21 pm

Ierrellus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
i don't see any atheists around....which means they are just attacking the fathergod...

where are the atheists....bring it on


It just occurred to me and I may be wrong but maybe the sign of a real atheist would be one who doesn't attack God. How can we attack what doesn't exist for us? lol

They attack the idea of a God.


they attack the fathergod....
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Ierrellus » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:29 pm

They attack ideas about a deity. As Arc noted, they cannot attack that in which they do not believe. Ideas, however, can be attacked.
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby turtle » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:44 pm

Ierrellus wrote:They attack ideas about a deity. As Arc noted, they cannot attack that in which they do not believe. Ideas, however, can be attacked.


lets bring one in here...I think they are attacking anyone who believes in a father god....they are making personal attacks mostly on fundies
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:05 pm

turtle wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:They attack ideas about a deity. As Arc noted, they cannot attack that in which they do not believe. Ideas, however, can be attacked.


lets bring one in here...I think they are attacking anyone who believes in a father god....they are making personal attacks mostly on fundies

This certainly seems true of Dawkins. In his tirades the beauty and glory of science are shrouded by attacks on fundies.
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Ben JS » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:12 pm

Turtle,

You call upon Atheists, but what's there to be gained?

I don't see a positive outcome from the endeavor.

Live and let live, friend.

Sorry for any insult - and the same to you Ierrellus, sorry.
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:25 pm

Ben JS wrote:Turtle,

You call upon Atheists, but what's there to be gained?

I don't see a positive outcome from the endeavor.

Live and let live, friend.

Sorry for any insult - and the same to you Ierrellus, sorry.

No insult taken. I won't judge atheists so long as they don't judge me.
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby turtle » Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:42 pm

why arent the atheists talking here....some of my friends are atheists....
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Wizard » Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:22 pm

No, god is the exact opposite of nature.
Nature does not change.
Yet god can and does change everything.
God manipulates the universe, bending everything to his divine willpower.
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"The light is here"
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby turtle » Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:42 pm

interterrestrial wrote:No, god is the exact opposite of nature.
Nature does not change.
Yet god can and does change everything.
God manipulates the universe, bending everything to his divine willpower.


it seems like nature is changing all the time....nature follows certain rules that seem to stay the same...
what I am saying is that nature is god....we don't know for sure but in order to survive we better understand nature much better...
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:28 pm

interterrestrial

No, god is the exact opposite of nature.
Nature does not change.

Is global warming included in your concept of nature?
Even if you're speaking of human nature, that too has changed.

Yet god can and does change everything.

What has god changed in your estimation?

God manipulates the universe, bending everything to his divine willpower.

For someone who would appear to be a self-determined personality, you see god as a despot? Me thinks you're projecting a bit. :P
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“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Ben JS » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:05 pm

Nature works fine without inserting God into the equation.

Nature = Nature

God = God

-

God

noun
1.
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2.
the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute:
the God of Islam.
3.
(lowercase) one of several deities, especially a male deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
4.
(often lowercase) a supreme being according to some particular conception:
the god of mercy.
5.
Christian Science. the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
6.
(lowercase) an image of a deity; an idol.
7.
(lowercase) any deified person or object.

-

1.
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.

-

1. God
a. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
b. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

Wikipedia wrote:God is often conceived as the Supreme Being and principal object of faith.The concept of God as described by theologians commonly includes the attributes of omniscience (infinite knowledge), omnipotence (unlimited power), omnipresence (present everywhere), omnibenevolence (perfect goodness), divine simplicity, and eternal and necessary existence. In theism, God is the creator and sustainer of the universe, while in deism, God is the creator (but not the sustainer) of the universe.


==

You seem to be defining God against the norm there, friend.

Are you unsatisfied with the above definitions?

Wikipedia wrote:Pantheism is the belief that the universe (or nature as the totality of everything) is identical with divinity, or that everything composes an all-encompassing, immanent God. Pantheists thus do not believe in a distinct personal or anthropomorphic god.

You're speaking like a Pantheist.

Are you one?

As a determinist, I've been inclined towards it myself, but the terminology is misleading. So I don't describe myself so.
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Lev Muishkin » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:29 pm

interterrestrial wrote:No, god is the exact opposite of nature.
Nature does not change.
Yet god can and does change everything.
God manipulates the universe, bending everything to his divine willpower.

But...
darwin wrote:Nature is change. Evolution is the result of that change.

God is unchangeable and immutable. God changes nothing. If he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he is not limited by wants need or desires, thus has no need to make any changes. If he were to change something, that would imply that he got it wrong in the first place.
So what you say is a complete contradiction.
Image

Oh look - he looks exactly like god!
Last edited by Lev Muishkin on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.

"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby turtle » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:32 pm

thank you ben and lev for being the atheists...
ben you make a good case with definitions
lev you are correct

and arc you are asking good questions which the theists tend to avoid..
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Arcturus Descending » Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:00 pm

Lev Muishkin

God is unchangeable and immutable. God changes nothing.

You can't know this. If there IS a god, and we are in some strange way, made in this god's image and likeness, though I doubt it, then god is changeable and not immutable...since we are. Anyway, we can have no idea of what is god's nature - nature from the human standpoint.

If he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he is not limited by wants need or desires, thus has no need to make any changes.

Have you ever made a change from simple self-awareness, Lev - there being no urgency about it or need? You just decided to do things differently. We have the ability to do this but we can't attribute that to a god?
HE? Always the HE - go fig

If he were to change something, that would imply that he got it wrong in the first place.

What that just might tell me is that you have the need to think of god as being set in stone. You and are a process, just as the Earth and the Universe are, but still, you disallow your god from also being a process? Does that make you insecure? lol
Isn't there a passage in the bible - I am what I am ...becoming...
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: GOD=NATURE

Postby Lev Muishkin » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:45 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:Lev Muishkin

God is unchangeable and immutable. God changes nothing.

You can't know this. If there IS a god, and we are in some strange way, made in this god's image and likeness, though I doubt it, then god is changeable and not immutable...since we are. Anyway, we can have no idea of what is god's nature - nature from the human standpoint.

It's the logical conclusion of the claims of the monotheists definition of God.


If he is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, then he is not limited by wants need or desires, thus has no need to make any changes.

Have you ever made a change from simple self-awareness, Lev - there being no urgency about it or need? You just decided to do things differently. We have the ability to do this but we can't attribute that to a god?
HE? Always the HE - go fig.

I don't make the rules. But of you want to equate God with Nature, then these are the logical steps. If god is all knowing then he ought to have thought things through already and not be so capricious.


If he were to change something, that would imply that he got it wrong in the first place.

What that just might tell me is that you have the need to think of god as being set in stone. You and are a process, just as the Earth and the Universe are, but still, you disallow your god from also being a process? Does that make you insecure? lol
Isn't there a passage in the bible - I am what I am ...becoming...


Insecure? What makes you say that?


"Science is entirely Faith Based.... Obama is Muslim....Evil is the opposition to life (e-v-i-l <=> l-i-v-e ... and not by accident). Without evil there could be no life.", James S. Saint.
"The Holocaust was the fault of the Jews; The Holocaust was not genocide", Kriswest
"A Tortoise is a Turtle", Wizard
" Hitler didn't create the Nazis. In reality, the Judists did ... for a purpose of their own. Hitler was merely one they chose to head it up after they discovered the Judist betrayal in WW1, their "Judas Iscariot";James S Saint.
These just keep getting funnier.
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