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Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:26 pm
by turtle
Atheris wrote:
people want to hold on to the persongod as the authority....I don't like this....it is their heroin..it is not easy to give up an opiate..


I agree with that, but what you want to do seems like trying to "cheat" them out of believing in God by just redefining the word. As I said, I don't think it's the best way to do it.

IMO this world needs more honesty and a direct approach to such issues, not a new definition of an already abstract concept.


you may be right....I agree that we need honesty and integrity and kindness....I am not attacking those persons believing in a persongod.....
they can do what they want ...I am proposing that we pay attention to nature as the way to go.....we need to pay more attention to the golden rule...
actually I am for secular humanism in a church setting without the persongod....I want reformation of the church....not doing away with it...

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:34 pm
by AutSider
they can do what they want ...I am proposing that we pay attention to nature as the way to go.....we need to pay more attention to the golden rule...


I agree with that completely, but let's just call it nature then.

actually I am for secular humanism in a church setting without the persongod....I want reformation of the church....not doing away with it...


It seems to me like you want a church without everything that makes church a church. Aka, that you want something else that is in fact not a church.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 4:53 pm
by turtle
Atheris wrote:
they can do what they want ...I am proposing that we pay attention to nature as the way to go.....we need to pay more attention to the golden rule...


I agree with that completely, but let's just call it nature then.

actually I am for secular humanism in a church setting without the persongod....I want reformation of the church....not doing away with it...


It seems to me like you want a church without everything that makes church a church. Aka, that you want something else that is in fact not a church.


that's the problem atheris...we keep thinking of church in a certain way...but the present church has been adulterated...it needs reform....
the early followers of jesus didn't have a church...and I see jesus as a human not as a god....the church is praying and worshipping but nothing is changed..in fact things are worse....so what to do....well maybe we have to get together and solve some of the problems ourselves....

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:47 pm
by James S Saint
turtle wrote:the church is praying and worshipping but nothing is changed..in fact things are worse....so what to do....well maybe we have to get together and solve some of the problems ourselves....

That is because they are not actually praying. They were led into believing that "praying" means "reverently begging for favors". That is not what it ever meant. That is a worship of demonic magic, "Devil worship".

To pray means to reverently seek. To "pray to God" means to seek of the fundamental cause(s) of all things. That is what an honest scientist does. That is what monks do. To speak a prayer out loud is to express one's concerns to the public so that others might be able to help (as well as internal communication needs inside their head, much like talking to yourself). That is what an honest scientist does when he publishes his hypotheses.

So a great many things are changing. The problem is that the churches are "praying" in the wrong way because those with the ability to deceive, did so (hundreds of years ago). And the first thing such deceivers ALWAYS strive for, is to get the deceived to NOT seek of the truth (actually pray), but fantasize that someone will magically save them, exactly what the Devil offered in the beginning, "worship me (deception) and you can gain anything you want. You can be God!" - through the use of deception; aka Mainstream Media, Money, and Medications.

Those who are praying to/of Reality, are making huge progress called "technology". But that doesn't mean that they are using it prayfully. Once they get it, they lust to use it for power, to be God so that you will have to pray to THEM.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:52 pm
by Ierrellus
What would it take to reform the churches? You can't just be rid of an opiate without replacing it with something more powerful.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 5:54 pm
by turtle
Ierrellus wrote:What would it take to reform the churches? You can't just be rid of an opiate without replacing it with something more powerful.


how about not using money and returning to the real human jesus..

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:08 pm
by James S Saint
Ierrellus wrote:What would it take to reform the churches? You can't just be rid of an opiate without replacing it with something more powerful.

Well, please realize that I am a little complicated from your perspective, although simple in the long run.

My solution for;
Philosophy (and thus all thought) is RM - Rational Metaphysics
Physics (and thus all physical interaction) is AO - Affectance Ontology
Psychology (and thus all human behavior) is PHTMOT - Perception of Hopes and Threat, Memory, Ontology, and Time,
Sociology (an thus all governance and religion) is SAM - Social Anentropic Molecularisation,
Economics (and thus all money and trade issues) is IJOT DJ - Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy.

I instilled SAM into a church once a few years back, unfortunately the church was already on the edge of bankruptcy and didn't really have a good leadership sufficient for a good SAM prototype. But in the short time it had, it resolved every problem they presented to it. From their perspective, it worked "miracles" by resolving what they worried about most (they just didn't know what problems they had to worry about most - yet).

SAM is very patient and tolerant. It doesn't care who or what you worship as long as you do it properly (meaning in the SAM way). In the long run you will learn. SAM removes deception from the mind and world of Man - through time. But until you can witness a good prototype, it takes too much explanation to feel confident about it. Once witnessed, it is pretty simple and easily empirical.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:10 pm
by turtle
James S Saint wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:What would it take to reform the churches? You can't just be rid of an opiate without replacing it with something more powerful.

Well, please realize that I am a little complicated from your perspective, although simple in the long run.

My solution for;
Philosophy (and thus all thought) is RM - Rational Metaphysics
Physics (and thus all physical interaction) is AO - Affectance Ontology
Psychology (and thus all human behavior) is PHTMOT - Perception of Hopes and Threat, Memory, Ontology, and Time,
Sociology (an thus all governance and religion) is SAM - Social Anentropic Molecularisation,
Economics (and thus all money and trade issues) is IJOT DJ - Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy.

I instilled SAM into a church once a few years back, unfortunately the church was already on the edge of bankruptcy and didn't really have a good leadership sufficient for a good SAM prototype. But in the short time it had, it resolved every problem they presented to it. From their perspective, it worked "miracles" by resolving what they worried about most (they just didn't know what problems they had to worry about most - yet).

SAM is very patient and tolerant. It doesn't care who or what you worship as long as you do it properly (meaning in the SAM way). In the long run you will learn. SAM removes deception from the mind and world of Man - through time. But until you can witness a good prototype, it takes too much explanation to feel confident about it. Once witnessed, it is pretty simple and easily empirical.


so james you are talking about a rational realistic approach to everything....why so many fancy words

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:54 am
by James S Saint
turtle wrote:so james you are talking about a rational realistic approach to everything....why so many fancy words

Umm.. which words would those be?


.. and probably just to impress the chicks. 8-[

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:42 am
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:What would it take to reform the churches? You can't just be rid of an opiate without replacing it with something more powerful.

Well, please realize that I am a little complicated from your perspective, although simple in the long run.

My solution for;
Philosophy (and thus all thought) is RM - Rational Metaphysics
Physics (and thus all physical interaction) is AO - Affectance Ontology
Psychology (and thus all human behavior) is PHTMOT - Perception of Hopes and Threat, Memory, Ontology, and Time,
Sociology (an thus all governance and religion) is SAM - Social Anentropic Molecularisation,
Economics (and thus all money and trade issues) is IJOT DJ - Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy.

I instilled SAM into a church once a few years back, unfortunately the church was already on the edge of bankruptcy and didn't really have a good leadership sufficient for a good SAM prototype. But in the short time it had, it resolved every problem they presented to it. From their perspective, it worked "miracles" by resolving what they worried about most (they just didn't know what problems they had to worry about most - yet).

SAM is very patient and tolerant. It doesn't care who or what you worship as long as you do it properly (meaning in the SAM way). In the long run you will learn. SAM removes deception from the mind and world of Man - through time. But until you can witness a good prototype, it takes too much explanation to feel confident about it. Once witnessed, it is pretty simple and easily empirical.

What do you exactly mean by "Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy" and how does it work in the long run?

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:56 am
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote:What do you exactly mean by "Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy" and how does it work in the long run?
In Sight of SAM

It is the beginning of a better form of economy.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:57 am
by Arminius
James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:What do you exactly mean by "Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy" and how does it work in the long run?
In Sight of SAM

It is the beginning of a better form of economy.

Excuse me, but that's too general! :)

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:22 am
by James S Saint
Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:What do you exactly mean by "Integral of Joy Over Time and a Dairy of Joy" and how does it work in the long run?
In Sight of SAM

It is the beginning of a better form of economy.

Excuse me, but that's too general! :)

Well, you can't expect to skip to the last chapter of a book and have it explained it in coherent detail. You need to first get the concept of the RM method, then get the physics down, then the psychology, the sociology, then the economics, "IJOT_DJ". The way the new economy works is explained in terms of the psychology and sociology, which are explained in terms of the physics which is explained in terms of Definitional Logic as required by RM. Everything I do is connected.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:32 pm
by Ierrellus
turtle wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:What would it take to reform the churches? You can't just be rid of an opiate without replacing it with something more powerful.


how about not using money and returning to the real human jesus..

Sounds a bit utopian given the materialistic world we have inherited. See Thomas More's "Utopia",
wherein gold is used to line toilets, having little other practical use.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:35 pm
by turtle
back to GOD=NATURE.....I WAS TALKING WITH A VERY RELIGIOUS MAN IN THE CHURCH THAT I GO TO......he stated that the more he understands about NATURE the stronger is his belief in GOD....

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:40 pm
by Ierrellus
turtle wrote:back to GOD=NATURE.....I WAS TALKING WITH A VERY RELIGIOUS MAN IN THE CHURCH THAT I GO TO......he stated that the more he understands about NATURE the stronger is his belief in GOD....

I'd guess that most church goers see God as personal and partial; whereas Nature is not. How can you change that?

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:42 pm
by turtle
Ierrellus wrote:
turtle wrote:back to GOD=NATURE.....I WAS TALKING WITH A VERY RELIGIOUS MAN IN THE CHURCH THAT I GO TO......he stated that the more he understands about NATURE the stronger is his belief in GOD....

I'd guess that most church goers see God as personal and partial; whereas Nature is not. How can you change that?


my church needs to have a science study group....

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:46 pm
by zinnat
idioticidioms wrote:
zinnat13 wrote:
turtle wrote:we are all talking about the same thing...we just argue about what is real and what is supernatural...because we are driven to compete...
and some people don't know about nature...


The term supernatural is oxymoron.

Supernatural means that something is superior than nature.
But, the problem is that if anything is superior than nature, how it can ever exist or happen?
If anything can happen, than simply means that it natural.

Someone may argure that supernatural is that does not happen normally. But, even that does not the test of logic.
Cyclones and earh-quakes rarely happen but that rarity does not make then supernatural.
They are very much the part of the nature.

with love,
sanjay



(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.


you should really acquaint your self with words before making an ass of your self.

with love,
Chris Brown


Thanks for your advise but my friend, i do that a lot before making such kind of conclusive statements, for more than you are assuming. I always try to test those from as far angles as possible. And, your rebuttal is the first one among those.

Supernatural simply means that is totally beyond nature, not merely our scientific understanding.

The aging and death of humans, animals and even plants with time can also be attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
Should we call this phenomena also a supernatural?

Think again.

with love,
sanjay

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:47 pm
by Ierrellus
turtle wrote:
Ierrellus wrote:
turtle wrote:back to GOD=NATURE.....I WAS TALKING WITH A VERY RELIGIOUS MAN IN THE CHURCH THAT I GO TO......he stated that the more he understands about NATURE the stronger is his belief in GOD....

I'd guess that most church goers see God as personal and partial; whereas Nature is not. How can you change that?


my church needs to have a science study group....

How would science address the human need for the personal?

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:51 pm
by turtle
my church needs to have a science study group....[/quote]

How would science address the human need for the personal?[/quote]

it would not address the human need for the personal....it all depends on how much people want to delude themselves...
also if you study human nature you would find that we need each other in a bad way.....right now we are killing each other....

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:58 pm
by Ierrellus
turtle wrote:my church needs to have a science study group....


How would science address the human need for the personal?[/quote]

it would not address the human need for the personal....it all depends on how much people want to delude themselves...
also if you study human nature you would find that we need each other in a bad way.....right now we are killing each other....[/quote]
Perhaps it is by being impersonal that we can excuse killing each other. It has to come home some time.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:26 pm
by Ierrellus
Without being personal one cannot exhibit compassion and empathy. The Golden Rule starts with the self. Personal is the root of morality. Jet fighter pilots can drop bombs, using computer game like consoles. They see targets, not people. The abstraction (impersonal) makes killing feasible. One cannot be rid of the human need for the personal without dire consequences.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:38 pm
by turtle
Ierrellus wrote:Without being personal one cannot exhibit compassion and empathy. The Golden Rule starts with the self. Personal is the root of morality. Jet fighter pilots can drop bombs, using computer game like consoles. They see targets, not people. The abstraction (impersonal) makes killing feasible. One cannot be rid of the human need for the personal without dire consequences.


of course but where does your god come in here

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:42 pm
by Ierrellus
Why would I want an impersonal God? One who would not ask me to be personal with others? God is evident and personal in how we treat others.

Re: GOD=NATURE

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:45 pm
by turtle
Ierrellus wrote:Why would I want an impersonal God?

you don't want an impersonal god....what does your personal god do for you...