Does wisdom require teleology?

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Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Amorphos » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:12 pm

Does wisdom require teleology?

So we all grow and learn, eventually becoming wise. It all ends. What is wisdom without a purpose?
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Arminius » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:57 pm

Armorphos wrote:Does wisdom require teleology?

Not necessarily.

Armorphos wrote:So we all grow and learn, eventually becoming wise.

All grow, stop growing, and shrink; but not all learn in the right way; so merely a few become really wise.

Armorphos wrote:It all ends.

Who told you that?

Armorphos wrote:What is wisdom without a purpose?

Also wisdom.
Last edited by Arminius on Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Amorphos » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:32 pm

If wisdom has no purpose there are no 'the wise'.

Who told you that?


The human race and the earth will end, then eventually the universe.

Also wisdom.


Is it localised and particular perhaps? So it doesn't need to be ultimate wisdom or any such thing, there is instead a constant flow of new and relative wisdoms. I agree.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Arminius » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:57 pm

Arminius wrote:
Amorphos wrote:Does wisdom require teleology?

Not necessarily.

Amorphos wrote:So we all grow and learn, eventually becoming wise.

All grow, stop growing, and shrink; but not all learn in the right way; so merely a few become really wise.

Amorphos wrote:It all ends.

Who told you that?

Amorphos wrote:What is wisdom without a purpose?

Also wisdom.
Amorphos wrote:If wisdom has no purpose there are no 'the wise'.

Why? Wisdom does not necessarily need a purpose. "The Wise" can exist without purpose in their wisdom.

Amorphos wrote:
Who told you that?

The human race and the earth will end, then eventually the universe.

You said: "It all ends." So I thought you meant the whole world, thus the universe. Therefore I replied: "Who told you that?". Now you are saying: that "the universe" will "eventually" end. But that is different from what you said before: "It all ends".

Now what?
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Arminius » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:01 pm

I remind you of the following post:

Arminius wrote:
Amorphos wrote:When I was a young punk I thought all this bs, homelessness etc, would be gone by the time I got to my age, but its just got worse ~ silly me.

Amorphos, you were a punk? :lol:

When did you start to be a punk?

When did you finish to be a punk?

No future:

Image:

Is it possible that you think that there must be an end with all because of your past when you were a punk crying "no future"? :)
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Moreno » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:02 am

Arminius wrote:I remind you of the following post:

Arminius wrote:
Amorphos wrote:When I was a young punk I thought all this bs, homelessness etc, would be gone by the time I got to my age, but its just got worse ~ silly me.

Amorphos, you were a punk? :lol:

When did you start to be a punk?

When did you finish to be a punk?

No future:

Image:

Is it possible that you think that there must be an end with all because of your past when you were a punk crying "no future"? :)

Often people choose models and ontologies that fit their temperments. Then they forget or are not aware of the intuitive reason they gratitated toward a worldview. They see then as self-evident certain truths - here, that all things end - and these seem self-evident given the models they have in their minds, models chosen for non-reasoned reasons, but post-hoc justified via the model itself. (just mulling here)
In some of the supposedly more rational models - say current consensus 'scientific' models - the believers think that they are braver than those with other models, not realizing how painful hope can be and how soothing cutting losses in advance can be. AS one example of how what seems the brave option may well be the fear/feelings of devastation option. They have a very simplified model of the human mind.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Amorphos » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:10 pm

You said: "It all ends." So I thought you meant the whole world, thus the universe. Therefore I replied: "Who told you that?". Now you are saying: that "the universe" will "eventually" end. But that is different from what you said before: "It all ends".

Now what?


'It' can be anything and the universe is something in the 'anything'.

Is it possible that you think that there must be an end with all because of your past when you were a punk crying "no future"?


Hahaha that may be the root of it. Nowadays I would say 'look, here is the future, just do x,y,z, what are they waiting for?'.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Arminius » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:48 pm

Amorphos.

Why an end of all?
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Ierrellus » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:48 pm

DNA construction of a viable organism seems to include teleology. A viable organism is one that could adapt to given environments in order to survive. In that sense survival is the purpose of DNA constructions.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Arminius » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:46 pm

We were talking about all, the universe.

So again: Why an end of all, Amorphos?
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Amorphos » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:53 pm

Why an end of all?


Fair enough, I can't say why there would be an ultimate end to everything. I can say that 'all + things' ~ the entire set of things one can conceive of, will each end. That doesn't mean there wont always be something to follow, that indeed those former things which came to an end don't necessarily form the potential for something else to be manifest.

DNA construction of a viable organism seems to include teleology. A viable organism is one that could adapt to given environments in order to survive. In that sense survival is the purpose of DNA constructions.


Agreed, but what teleology exists outside the system ~ making genes be genes. At most nature is again using maths in an abstract fashion like earthquake aftershocks, but with purpose?

_
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Moreno » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:15 am

[quote="Amorphos"}

Fair enough, I can't say why there would be an ultimate end to everything. I can say that 'all + things' ~ the entire set of things one can conceive of, will each end. That doesn't mean there wont always be something to follow, that indeed those former things which came to an end don't necessarily form the potential for something else to be manifest.[/quote]Generally the idea that things end means that there are things for periods of time. Either they stay the same or they change during that time of their existence (or perhaps a combination of the two). If we allow for change, why could not things continue, but change. Why need their be an end? Could they not also fluctuate between dormant and active states?

Agreed, but what teleology exists outside the system ~ making genes be genes. At most nature is again using maths in an abstract fashion like earthquake aftershocks, but with purpose?
The genes are, if they are, controlling changes at a specific juncture. From organism A to its progeny. Why can there not be teleology all around that juncture?

Someone chooses that mate. And then the progeny develop also goals and move towards those between the junctures. We could have potential teleology in the formation of the various tools for change, then what happens when organisms choose between the reproduction juncture,w hich is most of life.

Wisdom is a metalevel evaluation. I have these goals so I choose these heuristics. Teleology seems implicit in the idea of wisdom. We should use another word if we think there is no intention.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Ierrellus » Mon Apr 04, 2016 1:51 pm

The purpose of acquiring wisdom is to become wise.
On the gene issue--genetic processes smack of sheer determinism, which appears to be purposeful activity.
Without a sense of purpose life appears hollow. There is wisdom in wanting life to have purpose. In that sense purpose signifies meaning.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Arcturus Descending » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:04 pm

Amorphos wrote:Does wisdom require teleology?

So we all grow and learn, eventually becoming wise. It all ends. What is wisdom without a purpose?


Who said we [all] eventually become wise? :mrgreen:



wis·dom/ˈwizdəm/
noun
the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.


I would also go with the ability or capacity to know the right thing to do under different sets of circumstances and situations.
I suppose that that would go under good judgment. Also, like the great chess player, having the ability to "see" five or six (?) jumps ahead.

I think what you said is kind of putting the cart before the horse. Wisdom doesn't necessarily require purpose though I believe that a wise person would intuit or discern that purpose gives meaning to a life --- but having a purpose which leads to benefits or to optimal advantages does require wisdom - in other words, knowing the path to go to achieve that purpose (wisdom), having the ability to see the pitfalls along the way (wisdom), knowing that it will require discipline and endurance to follow that path (wisdom) and also understanding why you desire to achieve a particular purpose and what gain could come from it (wisdom)...among other factors along the way.
"Look closely. The beautiful may be small."


"Two things fill the mind with ever new and increasing admiration and awe, the oftener and more steadily we reflect on them: the starry heavens above me and the moral law within me."


“Whereas the beautiful is limited, the sublime is limitless, so that the mind in the presence of the sublime, attempting to imagine what it cannot, has pain in the failure but pleasure in contemplating the immensity of the attempt.”

Immanuel Kant
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Meno_ » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:58 pm

Wisdom needed teleology and purpose as a starting point, when connections were in the process being constructed as a world view. But, as the connections became especially as they evolved and became available, wide spread, after Guttenberg, the connections, the causative links, purpose and teleology, became matters of public adherence, the links became mute, and dynamically emptied out, and again the whole unavoidable cycle re-booted.

Wisdom at one turn does need a teleology, and yet given a purpose, it looses that need, because belief replaces that need. Loosing that, again, seeks a new purpose , resulting in the search for a new teleology.
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Re: Does wisdom require teleology?

Postby Ierrellus » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:00 pm

The anthropic principle--teleology or fortuity? Are we humans just an accident of nature?
If the latter question is answered yes, all religions amount to wishful thinking.
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