On Computing the Brain and Mind

Half-formed posts, inchoate philosophies, and the germs of deep thought.

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Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:59 pm

    Briefly covering PET

    Positron-emission tomography (PET) is a nuclear medicine functional imaging technique that is used to observe metabolic processes in the body. The system detects pairs of gamma rays emitted indirectly by a positron-emitting radionuclide (tracer), which is introduced into the body on a biologically active molecule. Three-dimensional images of tracer concentration within the body are then constructed by computer analysis. In modern PET-CT scanners, three-dimensional imaging is often accomplished with the aid of a CT X-ray scan performed on the patient during the same session, in the same machine.

    Image
    Brain PET-MRI fusion image

    PET scans are increasingly read alongside CT or magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans, with the combination (called "co-registration") giving both anatomic and metabolic information (i.e., what the structure is, and what it is doing biochemically). Because PET imaging is most useful in combination with anatomical imaging, such as CT, modern PET scanners are now available with integrated high-end multi-detector-row CT scanners (so-called "PET-CT").

    Image
    PET scan of the human brain.
      Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
      (Anomaly654 - 2017)

      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
      - which is to say there is always meaning.

      (gib - 2017)

      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
      (Myself - 2017)
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      Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

      Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:11 pm

      encode decode wrote:
      For the sake of our exploration it can be said that brain and mind are synonymous

      They are often treated as if they are synonymous but there is actually a distinction
      Which is that brain is the actual organ itself while mind is the function of the brain
      A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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      Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

      Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:20 pm

        gib

        In neuroscience, a biological neural network is a series of interconnected neurons whose activation defines a recognizable linear pathway. The interface through which neurons interact with their neighbors usually consists of several axon terminals connected via synapses to dendrites on other neurons. If the sum of the input signals into one neuron surpasses a certain threshold, the neuron sends an action potential (AP) at the axon hillock and transmits this electrical signal along the axon.

        Biological neural networks have inspired the design of artificial neural networks.

        gib wrote:I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what the mind is compared to the brain, and how they related to each other. You said before that you are not a dualist, but I would guess otherwise after hearing this. Obviously, words can be deceptive.

        OK . . . this caught my eye :lol: you do not have to be a dualist for this to be the case. Let us say that the mind(software) is running on the computer hardware(brain).

        It is necessary to look at it this way because some very special things take place.

        The computer has an assembly language that sits on top of the logic - the logic is in the biological neural networks(axon terminals, synapses, dendrites, blah, blah, blah :lol: ) - next the assembly language has to be gradually translated to the language of mind(the silent language or English or both) - when you program in C# eventually your instructions are executed by internal logic(via assembly language) within the electronic circuits even though a lot of English is taking place in your code:

        Code: Select all
        // Hello1.cs
        public class Hello1
        {
           public static void Main()
           {
              System.Console.WriteLine("Hello, World!");
           }
        }

        Now for the assembler:

        Code: Select all
        format PE64 GUI

        entry start
        section '.text' code readable executable

        start:
            push rbp
            mov rbp, rsp

            xor rcx, rcx
            lea rdx, [szText]
            lea r8, [szCaption]
            xor r9d, r9d
            call [MessageBoxA]

            xor rax, rax
            leave
            ret

        section '.idata' import data readable
        dd 0, 0, 0, RVA user32, RVA user_table
        dd 0, 0, 0, 0, 0

        user_table:
            MessageBoxA dq RVA _MessageBoxA
            dq 0

        user32 db 'USER32.DLL', 0

        _MessageBoxA dw 0
        db 'MessageBoxA', 0

        section '.rdata' data readable
        szText db 0x77, 0x69, 0x72, 0x65, 0x6d, 0x61, 0x73, 0x6b, 0x00
        szCaption db 'Hello, World!', 0

        That is a complete 64 BIT program using the FASM assembler. Scroll to the bottom to see Hello World.

        The most significant difference between these two programs, is one prints to the console, and the other opens a little Windoze MessageBox.

        So these example are not connected - as in the C# is not connected to the FASM - so I need to reiterate:

        The computer has an assembly language that sits on top of the logic - the logic is in the biological neural networks(axon terminals, synapses, dendrites) - next the assembly language has to be gradually translated to the language of mind(the silent language or English or both).

        What you are aware(Conscious) of is the language of mind, not the assembly language or internal logic.
          Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

          It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
          (Anomaly654 - 2017)

          But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
          - which is to say there is always meaning.

          (gib - 2017)

          Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
          (Myself - 2017)
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          Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

          Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:04 pm

            I know I am getting a little sidetracked but I am enjoying myself at the moment.

            <<< >>>

            Lets use some of our designer logix.

            <<< >>>

            MatterSet = particles <∫> atoms <∫> molecules <∫> brain <∫> biological neural networks

            MindSet = assembly language <∫> language of mind <∫> English

            MatterSet <∫> MindSet

            <<< >>>

            Not dualistic but rather some stems.

            <<< >>>

            Let us remember that the MatterSet can affect the MindSet and the MindSet can affect the MatterSet - neuro-plasticity and such.

            <<< >>>

            What about the old saying? Mind over Matter . . .

            :D
              Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

              It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
              (Anomaly654 - 2017)

              But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
              - which is to say there is always meaning.

              (gib - 2017)

              Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
              (Myself - 2017)
              User avatar
              encode_decode
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              Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

              Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:20 pm

              encode_decode wrote:

              Goodness no, that is not my stance - I firmly believe the mind and body are two different things - to me they are connected. That was an invitation for those that believe otherwise - to which they still do not have good proof. The proof that I see is that the brain responds to the mind.

              I like to express it by saying that the brain is the flower and the mind is its scent in a manner of speaking.

              How are YOU using the term *responds to* here? It is kind of ambiguous to me but that may just be me.
              Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
              SAPERE AUDE!


              If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


              What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

              Thomas Nagel


              I learn as I write!
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              Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

              Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:27 pm

                Three smiles for you . . .

                Arcturus Descending wrote:encode_decode wrote:

                Goodness no, that is not my stance - I firmly believe the mind and body are two different things - to me they are connected. That was an invitation for those that believe otherwise - to which they still do not have good proof. The proof that I see is that the brain responds to the mind.

                How are you using the word *responds* to here?

                Good point, I should have said it both ways - the brain responds to the mind and the mind responds to the brain.
                They are dependent on each other . . .

                :D :D :D
                  Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                  It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                  (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                  But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                  - which is to say there is always meaning.

                  (gib - 2017)

                  Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                  (Myself - 2017)
                  User avatar
                  encode_decode
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                  Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                  Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:32 pm

                    surreptitious75

                    surreptitious75 wrote:
                    encode decode wrote:
                    For the sake of our exploration it can be said that brain and mind are synonymous

                    They are often treated as if they are synonymous but there is actually a distinction
                    Which is that brain is the actual organ itself while mind is the function of the brain

                    I am aware of that - that is why I used the words "can be" and "for the sake of our exploration".
                    Some dictionaries do not make the distinction - strangely enough - I am not certain why.

                    For me they are distinct - but not in a dualistic way.
                      Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                      It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                      (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                      But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                      - which is to say there is always meaning.

                      (gib - 2017)

                      Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                      (Myself - 2017)
                      User avatar
                      encode_decode
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                      Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                      Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:34 pm

                      encode_decode wrote:
                        Three smiles for you . . .

                        Arcturus Descending wrote:encode_decode wrote:

                        Goodness no, that is not my stance - I firmly believe the mind and body are two different things - to me they are connected. That was an invitation for those that believe otherwise - to which they still do not have good proof. The proof that I see is that the brain responds to the mind.

                        How are you using the word *responds* to here?

                        Good point, I should have said it both ways - the brain responds to the mind and the mind responds to the brain.
                        They are dependent on each other . . .

                        :D :D :D


                        lol Gees, it wasn't really six minutes. It was less than one. What are you, a satellite?

                        So another word for respond in this case might be that they affect one another?
                        SAPERE AUDE!


                        If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


                        What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

                        Thomas Nagel


                        I learn as I write!
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                        Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                        Postby surreptitious75 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:38 pm

                        Arc wrote:
                        The proof that I see is that the brain responds to the mind

                        Mind is a function of the brain or to be more precise the function of the brain because
                        a brain without mind cannot function at all because every thing the brain does is mind
                        A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN
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                        Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                        Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:38 pm

                          gib

                          This sentence is an example of a pattern that has gone beyond inception, knowing and now has meaning.

                          Whereas . . .

                          Sentence this is fully not yet formed, to contain context full but the Bot some understanding has.

                          :lol:
                            Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                            It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                            (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                            But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                            - which is to say there is always meaning.

                            (gib - 2017)

                            Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                            (Myself - 2017)
                            User avatar
                            encode_decode
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                            Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                            Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:42 pm

                              Three more smiles . . .

                              Arcturus Descending wrote:lol Gees, it wasn't really six minutes. It was less than one. What are you, a satellite?

                              So another word for respond in this case might be that they affect one another?

                              Yes - and by the way - your way sounds much better.

                              Kill the brain and the mind ceases to be what is was and kill the mind and eventually the brain dies.

                              Then there is Neuroplasticity: The brain's ability to reorganize itself by forming new neural connections throughout life. Neuroplasticity allows the neurons (nerve cells) in the brain to compensate for injury and disease and to adjust their activities in response to new situations or to changes in their environment.

                              :D :D :D
                                Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                (gib - 2017)

                                Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                (Myself - 2017)
                                User avatar
                                encode_decode
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                                Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:51 pm

                                and kill the mind and eventually the brain dies.


                                Does it? I didn't know that or at least I didn't give it much thought.

                                How does that happen though, encode-decode?
                                You mean that the brain atrophies?

                                Muscles atrophy when they aren't used or exercised BUT are you sure that the brain dies if the mind ceases its functioning? :-k

                                An inquiring mind wants to know.
                                Last edited by Arcturus Descending on Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
                                SAPERE AUDE!


                                If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


                                What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

                                Thomas Nagel


                                I learn as I write!
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                                Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:00 pm

                                  I am curious how you would respond to this post Arc

                                  Arcturus Descending wrote:
                                  and kill the mind and eventually the brain dies.


                                  Does it? I didn't know that or at least I didn't give it much thought.

                                  How does that happen though, encode-decode?
                                  You mean that the brain apathies? (sp?)
                                  Are you sure that the brain dies if the mind ceases its functioning? :-k

                                  That got you talking. It sure does and "atrophy is the word". Coma comes in more than one form - the form where you are actually just dead and the other where you are more than likely to wake up.

                                  I like saying controversial things.

                                  Actually I will dig up what I am talking about and post it here - it is quite simple to understand.

                                  I just cant think of the right words at the moment.

                                  What you think and do on the other hand does change the structure of the brain.

                                  Softens the brain: Now for something slightly off topic: In medicine, cerebral softening (encephalomalacia) is a localized softening of the brain substance, due to hemorrhage or inflammation. Three varieties, distinguished by their color and representing different stages of the morbid process, are known respectively as red, yellow, and white softening.

                                  Image
                                  Stroke Brain (Similar to Cerebral Softening)

                                  Cases of cerebral softening in infancy versus in adulthood are much more severe due to an infant's inability to sufficiently recover brain tissue loss or compensate the loss with other parts of the brain. Adults can more easily compensate and correct for the loss of tissue use and therefore the mortality likelihood in an adult with cerebral softening is less than in an infant.

                                  Source: Wikipedia
                                    Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                    (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                    - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                    (gib - 2017)

                                    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                    (Myself - 2017)
                                    User avatar
                                    encode_decode
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                                    Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                    Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:13 pm

                                      Great material gibinator

                                      gib wrote:Well, that's more or less what I was getting at when I said we figure out the algorithms computers are to run based on introspecting our minds. If we look at the history of the development of computers and the history of the development of the brain sciences, we see that they go hand in hand; the 50s were the golden decade for the brain sciences, and only a decade later we saw the emergence of computers. The key principle that was carried over from the brain science to computer design was the way in which the brain seemed to process information as electric signals travelling down the axons of neurons and either being propagated to other neurons or being blocked by inhibiting neurons.

                                      I am familiar with this stuff - we have a small amount of ambiguity to work through - I am digesting the way you see things here . . .

                                      gib wrote:From this, we got wires with electric signals travelling down their length and being propagated to other wires through logic gates or being blocked by different logic gates. (The brain also has chemical signals that allow the signal to jump across the synaptic gap, but that wasn't carried over to computers). That seems to be the general principle underlying more or less all circuit design. However, when it comes to designing specific circuits which are to carry out specific functions, we fall back on introspection. Adders, for example, are based on the principle "long addition" (I think it's called).

                                      Here is something interesting and geeky for you: In a computer's central processing unit (CPU), an accumulator is a register in which intermediate arithmetic and logic results are stored. Without a register like an accumulator, it would be necessary to write the result of each calculation (addition, multiplication, shift, etc.) to main memory, perhaps only to be read right back again for use in the next operation. << Which consequently happens in a stack machine . . .

                                      You know we could compensate for the signal to jump across the synaptic gap in software . . .

                                      gib wrote:It's the principle of adding two large numbers by adding consecutively each digit in each number. So the units get added first, then tens, then the hundreds, and for each addition, we carry the 1 if we have to. We didn't get this method by studying the brain under a microscope, we simply took a moment out to think (i.e. introspect) and imagined doing addition in the way. Since we are satisfied that this method is algorithmic (i.e. it works flawlessly), we figure: let's apply it to design a computer circuit that carries out addition. So now computers all over the world have a little circuit inside them that gets recruited any time we need to do addition.

                                      Isn't it fantastic that our imaginings leads to adders and other handy things?

                                      gib wrote:It even has a component for carrying the 1. Who knows if this circuit looks anything remotely like the neural circuitry in the brain that comes into play when we do long addition in our heads--it might be completely different--so I would agree that we model computer circuitry after the algorithms we construct in our minds rather than the neural designs the brain is built on. Not that the latter are wrong or substandard, but it seems to me that if the brain is design to (at least as one of its functions) come up with algorithms for solving certain kinds of problems (and these algorithms we arrive at consciously via introspection), it is the results of this process that we want to apply to computer design, not the machinery used to produce those results.

                                      Who knows? I do . . . the neural circuitry has no equivalent to the adder - that is a function of the mind - it also relates to your memes in the meaning thread

                                      Respond to my meme comment - I beg you to.

                                      gib wrote:The machinery is built to come up with algorithm, but that doesn't mean it is running algorithms when coming up with those algorithms (certainly not necessarily the most optimal algorithms). The brain is more often based on heuristics than algorithms, so we have to be careful when we attempt to model computers after the brain. The general principle of neurons being used to process information is a good one to model circuit design after, but when it comes to which specific algorithms to build into the circuit, we are better off modeling that after what we come up with using our imaginations and intelligence.

                                      Heuristics are also learnt - we could apply your memes here too . . .

                                      I am going to come back to this post - from a different angle - just watch me lol - I saw an opportunity for meme commenting!

                                      Peace man!

                                      :D :D :D
                                        Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                        It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                        (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                        But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                        - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                        (gib - 2017)

                                        Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                        (Myself - 2017)
                                        User avatar
                                        encode_decode
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                                        Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                        Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:24 pm

                                          What can I say?

                                          At least I am not:



                                          8-[
                                            Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                            It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                            (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                            But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                            - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                            (gib - 2017)

                                            Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                            (Myself - 2017)
                                            User avatar
                                            encode_decode
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                                            Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                            Postby Arcturus Descending » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:25 pm

                                            encode_decode


                                            That got you talking.


                                            What is your meaning here?

                                            It sure does and "atrophy is the word".


                                            Yes, I know atrophy is the word. :oops: Oh, the mind so lags behind at times.

                                            Coma comes in more than one form - the form where you are actually just dead and the other where you are more than likely to wake up.


                                            As for the former, can you actually say that you are just dead? Aren't there still bodily functions going on then? The heart, lungs, kidneys, ad continuum.
                                            I can understand though how YOU would consider one to be *just dead*. That's a compliment. :lol:

                                            I like saying controversial things.


                                            Give me another. :evilfun:
                                            Actually I will dig up what I am talking about and post it here - it is quite simple to understand.

                                            You mean for the likes of me - to understand? :P

                                            I just cant think of the right words at the moment.


                                            Oh, how the mind does lag behind. :evilfun:

                                            What you think and do on the other hand does change the structure of the brain.


                                            I am quite aware of this. I watch Channel 50. There is this guy I cannot remember his name. Not sure. He might be a neuroscientist but what he has to say about the brain is indeed awe inspiring.
                                            It really is the final frontier notwithstanding deep dark mysterious space.

                                            Softens the brain: Now for something slightly off topic: In medicine, cerebral softening (encephalomalacia) is a localized softening of the brain substance, due to hemorrhage or inflammation. Three varieties, distinguished by their color and representing different stages of the morbid process, are known respectively as red, yellow, and white softening.


                                            I remember.

                                            Image
                                            Stroke Brain (Similar to Cerebral Softening)

                                            Cases of cerebral softening in infancy versus in adulthood are much more severe due to an infant's inability to sufficiently recover brain tissue loss or compensate the loss with other parts of the brain. Adults can more easily compensate and correct for the loss of tissue use and therefore the mortality likelihood in an adult with cerebral softening is less than in an infant.


                                            I realize this.
                                            :sad-teareye: :sad-teareye: :sad-teareye:


                                            So it's like the scent of the rose - it gradually dissipates to barely anything?
                                            SAPERE AUDE!


                                            If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped.


                                            What we take ourselves to be doing when we think about what is the case or how we should act is something that cannot be reconciled with a reductive naturalism, for reasons distinct from those that entail the irreducibility of consciousness. It is not merely the subjectivity of thought but its capacity to transcend subjectivity and to discover what is objectively the case that presents a problem....Thought and reasoning are correct or incorrect in virtue of something independent of the thinker's beliefs, and even independent of the community of thinkers to which he belongs.

                                            Thomas Nagel


                                            I learn as I write!
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                                            Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                            Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:47 pm

                                              gib

                                              No need to respond to this post - I just want to expand a bit.

                                              Now if we were to consider how the computer models GO compared to a brain I think that we would find the two very different. Our mind however would be similar and just a bit slower. I am still claiming that computers are a result of the mind and not the brain - but this can get ambiguous of course.

                                              gib wrote:I would agree. The algorithms we programmed into computers in order to play GO are taken from those ancient Chinese thinkers who invented the game. Right? So we modeled it after their minds. Who knows what their brains were doing.

                                              Man this is so cool!

                                              Neurons themselves are quite a bit different to logic gates or even combinations of them. These gates are the AND, OR, NOT, NAND, NOR, EXOR and EXNOR gates. Digital circuits are of course modeled using combinations of logic gates. When we are building a computer we are building a mass of gates - in many ways different to the brain. We can put software on the hardware. We have to do conversions from binary all the way up to English with many layers in between - these are called abstractions.

                                              gib wrote:True, I don't think we'd find the equivalent of AND, OR, etc. gates in the brain, but we do have "gates". There are two kinds of synaptic gaps in the brain: excitatory (allows the signal through) and inhibitory (stops the signal in its tracks). The inhibitory connections are like a rudimentary NOT gate.

                                              In machine learning, the perceptron is an algorithm for supervised learning of binary classifiers (functions that can decide whether an input, represented by a vector of numbers, belongs to some specific class or not >> think excitatory and inhibitory <<). It is a type of linear classifier, i.e. a classification algorithm that makes its predictions based on a linear predictor function combining a set of weights with the feature vector. The algorithm allows for online learning, in that it processes elements in the training set one at a time.

                                              The perceptron algorithm dates back to the late 1950s. Its first implementation, in custom hardware, was one of the first artificial neural networks to be produced.

                                              Image
                                              A diagram showing a perceptron updating its linear boundary as more training examples are added.

                                              gib wrote:I'm guessing this was the inspiration for inventing the NOT gate. AND, OR, NAND, NOR, XOR, XNOR <-- these are all complexes of the NOT gate, and I don't think we'd find them in the brain, at least not in the form of synaptic gaps, but since we are obviously capable of understanding the logic behind "X AND Y", there's obviously some kind of neural circuitry in the brain for processing that understanding (this incidentally is a perfect example of what I was talking about earlier: the neural circuitry in the brain is obviously far more complex than it needs to be--no AND gate per se but probably something on the order of several thousand neurons working together to figure out how to computer AND--yet the end product is a very simple and elegant algorithm, one that can be introspected and therefore implement as the AND gates we see in computers).

                                              I think a biological neural network would make those complexes happen if they were needed - I mean the people who invented the NOT gate. AND, OR, NAND, NOR, XOR, XNOR must have had the networks in their brain. I know I would have them uploaded and installed in my brain :evilfun:
                                                Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                (gib - 2017)

                                                Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                (Myself - 2017)
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                                                Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                                Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:51 pm

                                                  gib

                                                  Or however else one wants to divide things up . . .
                                                  . . . obviously it is these divisions that we work with when we discuss these sorts of things . . .
                                                  . . . the divisions are a matter of convenience and . . .
                                                  . . . standards are just divisions that we agree upon . . .

                                                  gib wrote:So don't take anything too literally? Is that what you mean?

                                                  I like it - it is not quite what I was going for but it is perfect in a way.

                                                  Standards are good but we should not be too scared to make new divisions.

                                                  Standard divisions are more convenient for communicating to others who understand those standards.

                                                  We should now remember though, don't take anything too literally because one never knows when one has a breakthrough because of an open mind.
                                                    Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                    (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                    - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                    (gib - 2017)

                                                    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                    (Myself - 2017)
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                                                    Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                                    Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:12 pm

                                                      gib

                                                      Again, another post I am not expecting a response to. Of course I am not hinting that you do not respond.

                                                      I understand the concept of lacking time for some things all too well . . .

                                                      gib wrote:What does it take to form an opinion? You mean, what are the steps in building one? Like a recipe for baking a cake? God, how am I supposed to know?! :lol: But I do think a motive is required, a desire for some kind of outcome that serves your own interests.

                                                      Motive, analogy, memes, Hmm what else - see if you can think of more - if not ask me to . . .

                                                      gib wrote:If I work for the military, my livelihood depends on war. It keeps me in business. So my opinion may be that war is sometimes necessary. If I were a school teacher or a stay home dad, on the other hand, fearing for the lives of the children I oversee, I may be steadfast against war. I think that our personal interests and biases dictate our opinions far more than logic and rationality.

                                                      What dictates our opinions may well form our opinions id est build biological neural networks full of opinions stored somewhere in the neocortex for more analogy and recall and refinements of our opinions. Our personal interests may change through life and offset our opinions further changing, forming and reforming.

                                                      Offset as in a consideration or amount that diminishes or balances the effect of an opposite one.
                                                      "widow's bereavement allowance is an offset against income"

                                                      What is your opinion on that?

                                                      gib wrote:We build the logic and rationality underlying our opinions after the fact. Before that, we (unconsciously) assess what would be the best and most closely within reach outcome and decide right then and there what opinions to hold. Then we go to work forming arguments and justifications for them.

                                                      These arguments and justifications are perhaps also complemented by emotional response to these thoughts.

                                                      :-k
                                                        Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                        It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                        (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                        But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                        - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                        (gib - 2017)

                                                        Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                        (Myself - 2017)
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                                                        Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                                        Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:52 pm

                                                          Some tidbits for you gib . . .

                                                          gib wrote:About evolutionary and configuration emotions: if I understand it correctly, an example of an evolutionary emotion might be fear of snakes. Is this right?

                                                          One hundred percent correct gib. We can also add to this and say that we potentially evolve throughout our life; potentially not definitely.

                                                          gib wrote:We may be born with the neural wiring already in place to feel fear upon seeing a snake. <-- We inherit that from our evolution.

                                                          There is an old study whereby children dream of local monsters early in their life even if they have never seen them before.

                                                          Grizzly bears in the USA - Lions in Africa - Crocodiles in Australia . . . the list goes on.

                                                          gib wrote:But configuration emotions would be more like emotions that are built within us by some kind of conditioning or socialization, something that could be wholly new and unique to a particular culture (kind of like abstract concepts, like wormholes for example, which we aren't born with and require teaching). Is this what you mean?

                                                          Yes and the emotions that we choose.

                                                          And if so, what would be an example? Anger is not a chosen emotion in an Inuit culture for adults - children also grow out of it through socialization.

                                                          I can provide a few more examples if you like.

                                                          gib wrote:Waaay over my head. :o

                                                          No problem, I can make it easier - say we have a whole bunch of Coke cans and a whole bunch of Pepsi cans and only one Sprite can and two 7UP cans- now we have these cans but we only want one of each - we discard all of the cans except for one of each. Lets change our original array to look like the following:

                                                          Code: Select all
                                                          Hi gib I am output from and array of cans!

                                                              P  C  C
                                                              C  P  7
                                                              7  C  P
                                                              S  C  P

                                                          Let C = Coke, P = Pepsi, S = Sprite and 7 = 7UP

                                                          Because we only want one of each lets now process to get the result
                                                          - we know we only keep the first column which just so happens is a linear network in the array . . .

                                                          . . . the result looks like the following:

                                                          Code: Select all
                                                          Hi gib I am output from an array of cans!

                                                              P  ~  ~
                                                              C  ~  ~
                                                              7  ~  ~
                                                              S  ~  ~

                                                          Simple but significant to the brain. I only showed the functionality here - I will demonstrate further and gently at a later date.
                                                          We took away the active potential networks - the other knowns and unknowns.
                                                          We are left with unconfigured neurons - they will probably die
                                                            Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                            It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                            (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                            But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                            - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                            (gib - 2017)

                                                            Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                            (Myself - 2017)
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                                                            Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                                            Postby encode_decode » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:13 pm

                                                              gib

                                                              This is possibly a little more advanced than the dialect you pointed out, however you are spot on with your observations . . .

                                                              gib wrote:I'm afraid this one's over my head too, encode. But I do sense that this is at the core:

                                                              Your sense is correct . . .

                                                                abstract impression = total sum[derivativeSimilarities]/newfound

                                                                answer = analogy derived from: abstract impression

                                                                integrated answer = answer ∫ newfound

                                                                integrated answer = meaning
                                                              You said: It reminds me of the Hegelian dialect: thesis --> antithesis --> synthesis. The synthesis will always derive newer higher meaning. <-- Is this within the ball park? To which I would reply: This is well within the ball park - I am going to look up the Hegelian dialect now, thank you gib . . .

                                                              =D>
                                                                Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                                It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                                (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                                But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                                - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                                (gib - 2017)

                                                                Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                                (Myself - 2017)
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                                                                Re: On Computing the Brain and Mind

                                                                Postby gib » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:22 am

                                                                This thread has officially outrun me. I'm going to need to stop to catch my breath.

                                                                But I will read through it eventually.
                                                                My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                                                                It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                                                                Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                                                                - surreptitious75

                                                                The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                                                                - encode_decode

                                                                Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
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                                                                Too much information . . .

                                                                Postby encode_decode » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:09 am

                                                                  Relax gib - you more than deserve to . . .

                                                                  Please, do not concern yourself with keeping up. I am happy if you get the chance, to quickly glance at my posts.
                                                                  For your information, I have also made a post in your Rationality is overrated thread.

                                                                  gib wrote:This thread has officially outrun me. I'm going to need to stop to catch my breath.

                                                                  But I will read through it eventually.

                                                                  There is no need to keep up. I am happier if you get a chance to gloss over things, at your own pace. You have already responded once(and that is good enough, as far as I am concerned), and I have returned volley with a few simple responses to your post. I have not responded properly to all of your post yet, I just wanted to give you something to read in the meantime, to inspire some thought, to get you thinking - so you know, that somewhere out there - encode is thinking too.

                                                                    This also gives me a chance to write a post of higher quality, about scanning the brain . . .
                                                                    . . . which I think you would me more interested in reading at the moment.
                                                                  I am going to be taking a relaxed approach at providing information from my point of view - there are going to be a few posts, that I suggest you just read, rather than respond to. These posts will lead up to a summary post that will be well worth your time to respond to, and I will not make the summary too long either.

                                                                  Look out for my first post in the small set of posts called:

                                                                    On scanning the brain, in order to understand its ability, to process patterns of information.
                                                                  We can continue our discussion after I make the summary post, I personally think it will work better that way but it is up to you.

                                                                  Relax, stop and catch your breath, and read at your own pace gib . . .

                                                                  :wink:
                                                                    Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                                    It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                                    (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                                    But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                                    - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                                    (gib - 2017)

                                                                    Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                                    (Myself - 2017)
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                                                                    Rest in Peace, Aunt Florence . . .

                                                                    Postby encode_decode » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:05 am

                                                                      Arcturus Descending

                                                                      Coma comes in more than one form - the form where you are actually just dead and the other where you are more than likely to wake up.

                                                                      Arcturus Descending wrote:As for the former, can you actually say that you are just dead? Aren't there still bodily functions going on then? The heart, lungs, kidneys, ad continuum.
                                                                      I can understand though how YOU would consider one to be *just dead*. That's a compliment. :lol:

                                                                      Thank you for the compliment :D I will dig up what I am talking about and post it here - it is quite simple to understand.

                                                                      Arcturus Descending wrote:You mean for the likes of me - to understand? :P

                                                                      I actually meant for the likes of me to understand - you might even understand it better than me I think. :D

                                                                      What you think and do on the other hand does change the structure of the brain.

                                                                      Arcturus Descending wrote:I am quite aware of this. I watch Channel 50. There is this guy I cannot remember his name. Not sure. He might be a neuroscientist but what he has to say about the brain is indeed awe inspiring. It really is the final frontier notwithstanding deep dark mysterious space.

                                                                      That sounds like an awesome channel Arc. I like those sorts of shows and documentaries - when it comes to brain, mind and reality, I am quite passionate.
                                                                      Much like you are with deep dark mysterious space.

                                                                      Arcturus Descending wrote:So it's like the scent of the rose - it gradually dissipates to barely anything?

                                                                      Yeah - kinda sad in a way Arc - but I understand that brain death is a process too - I watched my poor, dear old, Great Great Auntie, die after a stroke - it took her three days before she passed - I asked her not to go, and she patted me on the head, this was while she was still lucid - when she took her last breath, it felt like I took mine. May she rest in peace.

                                                                      [-o<
                                                                        Neosophi | οἶκος | ἀγορά

                                                                        It’s not that truth itself is being eroded per se, it’s that fragmental falsification appears to be increasing.
                                                                        (Anomaly654 - 2017)

                                                                        But the point remains that you can't get at that meaning before grasping the surface meaning
                                                                        - which is to say there is always meaning.

                                                                        (gib - 2017)

                                                                        Mind is an ever changing dimension that is bound to reality, logic and emotion.
                                                                        (Myself - 2017)
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                                                                        encode_decode
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                                                                        Re: Too much information . . .

                                                                        Postby gib » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:07 pm

                                                                        encode_decode wrote:Relax gib -


                                                                        Okay, okay, I'll relax... geez! :lol: I will take a day at the spa.

                                                                        Just didn't want to leave you with the impression I was ignoring you.
                                                                        My thoughts | My art | My music | My poetry

                                                                        It is impossible for a human being to go through life not thinking irrationally even if they think of themselves as rational
                                                                        Also just as irrational decisions are not always bad then rational ones are not always good no matter what the intention
                                                                        - surreptitious75

                                                                        The rating of rationality can be higher and always is higher than the person trying to be rational. Rationality is less emotional than the person delivering it.
                                                                        - encode_decode

                                                                        Is that a demon slug in your stomach or are you just happy to see me?
                                                                        - Rick Sanchez
                                                                        User avatar
                                                                        gib
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                                                                        Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 10:25 pm
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