Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:44 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Wobbly wrote:Just waiting for Gobbo to choose. It just requires a bit of work and hoops to jump through to pry it out of him, for whatever reason.

Did you see some detail overlooked?
Did you see the opening for the trick; the card up his sleeve?



I have no idea, the overview does not offer nearly enough detail to know. It's all clear on P-values, statistical principles, possible problems, types of evidence, the history of the literature, the stated results, and brief overviews of each studies methodology. But as we know, untill the data collection is reviewed, that doesn't mean anything.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:46 pm

Wobbly wrote:Yeah, choosing a study from an already available list that I would then spend time analyzing is a lot of work on your part.


Actually it does. You could have just picked one, or all, but instead you want to waste time.

Seeing as how no one wants to focus on the data, we'll move onto another study.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:47 pm

Old_Gobbo wrote:Seeing as how no one wants to focus on the data, we'll move onto another study.


LOL
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:52 pm

Study of the sense of being stared at

Source: AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING Professor Jessica Utts, Division of Statistics, University of California, Davis. (http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html)

Show Credentials

In fall 1995, Professor Ray Hyman (University of Oregon) and Dr. Utts prepared a report assessing the statistical evidence for psychic functioning in U.S. government sponsored research as part of a review done by the American Institutes of Research (AIR) at the request of Congress and the CIA. The study that follows is taken from that report.

Results of studies in the Former Soviet Union (FSU), the United States and Scotland demonstrated that people do have a sense of being stared at. In other words, without contact with the other person, someone is aware when that person's consciousness is trained on them. To replicate the results, SAIC performed two studies of its own. The result was that they found that people displayed the same subconscious reaction of knowing when they are being stared at. Dr. Utts reviewed the two studies to determine whether they were valid studies.

Abstract:

Purpose: It is often reported anecdotally that people know when they are being watched. Two experiments were conducted at SAIC to determine whether or not these anecdotes could be supported by a change in physiology when someone is being observed from a distance. The experimental design was essentially the same for the two experiments. This work was a conceptual replication of results reported by researchers in the Former Soviet Union (FSU), the United States and Scotland. The experiments in the FSU were interpreted to mean that the physiology of the recipient was being manipulated by the sender, an effect that if real could have frightening consequences.

Method: The "observee" was seated in a room with a video camera focused on him or her, and with galvanic skin response measurements being recorded. In a distant room the "observer" attempted to influence the physiology of the observee at randomly spaced time intervals. During those time intervals, an image of the observee appeared on a computer monitor watched by the observer. During "control" periods, the video camera remained focused on the observee but the computer monitor did not display his or her image to the observer. There were 16 "influence" periods randomly interspersed with 16 "control" periods, each of 30 seconds, with blank periods of 0 to 5 seconds inserted to rule out patterns in physiology.

Results: To determine whether or not the galvanic skin response of the observees was activated while they were being watched, the response during the control periods was compared with the response during the "influence" periods for each subject. The results were then averaged across subjects. In both experiments, there was greater activity during the periods of being watched than there was during the control periods. The results were statistically significant in each case (p = .036 and .014) and the effect sizes were similar, at 0.39 and 0.49. As preplanned, the results were combined, yielding an effect size of .39 (p = .005). As an interesting post hoc observation, it was noted that the effect was substantially stronger when the observer and observee were of opposite sexes than when they were of the same sex.


Homework: pick a study and see if you can find something wrong with the methodology.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:54 pm

Na, I'm still trying to figure out why someone would read or post studies if the data doesn't matter.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:55 pm

(btw the dude (Hyman) working with the statistician in these is a Psychologist)
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:56 pm

Wobbly wrote:Na, I'm still trying to figure out why someone would read or post studies if the data doesn't matter.


No, you're avoiding looking at data because it's supporting a thesis you would rather not be correct.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:59 pm

A cursory glance at the new link showed that it is a synopsis of of the literature written by a statistician. It is unsatisfactory in this thread. We need the actual studies with clear descriptions of the methodology and manor of experimenting. Choose one from the meta-article to focus on.


    Statisticians cannot preform scientific inquiry...
    Now I know I have you on the ropes.


    I'm starting to think your guys' form of argumentation here is 'Well I didn't read that part.'

    Are you saying they don't go over the methodology in study I posted?
    That they only mentioned the statistical outcomes?
    Is that what you're saying? If so, it's wrong.

    If you want to say, 'She is a statistician, and because I haven't read all the details, it immediately invalidates everything presented' that is a ridiculous statement. As far as I can tell, that is what you're saying.

    If you don't want to look at the evidence I will just assume you don't want to because it's not the type of evidence you want to see.

LOL

Still waiting for a study of your choosing.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:06 am

You can choose a study to analyze, or you can keep making excuses as to why you refuse to look at any information.

I've brought all this information together. It's not my job to say 'here, read this specifically, then that,' and all this stuff. If you don't want to make any effort here than it's pretty obvious what your intentions are.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:08 am

Geeezz...

Tit-tat
Tit-tat
Is there a rat?
Where is the cat?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:09 am

I could choose, but I want you to. I don't know which study to choose based on any criterion. You posted the overview, so hopefully you may know which study is the most famous, which study is considered the most legitimate, ect. If you don't, just say, and i'll choose one randomly. Just don't complain that I chose the worst one when I do.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:11 am

I've brought all this information together.


LOL, you wrote the meta-review or posted a single link?
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:14 am

My choice is for you to study them all individually, and then as a whole with regards to the conclusions from the meta-view.

If you don't want to do that, then look at them all quickly and choose the weakest one carried out by a researcher from a discipline you find to be the least scientific.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:15 am

I also kind of need you to align yourself with one the studies, otherwise it will be like last time. Where you just go from study to study quoting it's conclusion, and I'm the only one that reads them all and tries to understand them. It was far too one-sided. You get one study this time.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:16 am

James, do you know anything about these? Are some baby-land frolics and others legit?
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Blurry » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:18 am

Have you not figured this out yet, Wobbly? If you disagree with him it's because you either haven't read what he posted, haven't read it carefully enough, or you're just an idiot. Duh.
"Nothing is original. Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination. Devour old films, new films, music, books, paintings, photographs, poems, dreams, random conversations, architecture, bridges, street signs, trees, clouds, bodies of water, light and shadows. Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul. If you do this, your work (and theft) will be authentic. Authenticity is invaluable; originality is non-existent. And don't bother concealing your thievery - celebrate it if you feel like it. In any case, always remember what Jean-Luc Godard said: 'It's not where you take things from - it's where you take them to.'" - Jim Jarmusch
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:19 am

Yeah, that's just smoke an mirrors though, a behavior he has acquired recently. Let us hope for his sake that I don't decide it's not worth the effort to pry some authenticity out of him.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:23 am

Wobbly wrote:James, do you know anything about these? Are some baby-land frolics and others legit?

Yes, many are "legit". Although I stopped looking into them many years ago after being so thoroughly disappointed in Man's ability to rationally deduce what he is looking at.

They are legit in the sense that they can display that the mind is more perceptive to minuscule tidbits of data than people realize. The question as to whether the mind is performing unknowable feats of magical perception is a false and senseless question.

How about if I choose one;
Study of the sense of being stared at

Source: AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING Professor Jessica Utts, Division of Statistics, University of California, Davis. (http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html)

Show Credentials

In fall 1995, Professor Ray Hyman (University of Oregon) and Dr. Utts prepared a report assessing the statistical evidence for psychic functioning in U.S. government sponsored research as part of a review done by the American Institutes of Research (AIR) at the request of Congress and the CIA. The study that follows is taken from that report.

Results of studies in the Former Soviet Union (FSU), the United States and Scotland demonstrated that people do have a sense of being stared at. In other words, without contact with the other person, someone is aware when that person's consciousness is trained on them. To replicate the results, SAIC performed two studies of its own. The result was that they found that people displayed the same subconscious reaction of knowing when they are being stared at. Dr. Utts reviewed the two studies to determine whether they were valid studies.

Abstract:

Purpose: It is often reported anecdotally that people know when they are being watched. Two experiments were conducted at SAIC to determine whether or not these anecdotes could be supported by a change in physiology when someone is being observed from a distance. The experimental design was essentially the same for the two experiments. This work was a conceptual replication of results reported by researchers in the Former Soviet Union (FSU), the United States and Scotland. The experiments in the FSU were interpreted to mean that the physiology of the recipient was being manipulated by the sender, an effect that if real could have frightening consequences.

Method: The "observee" was seated in a room with a video camera focused on him or her, and with galvanic skin response measurements being recorded. In a distant room the "observer" attempted to influence the physiology of the observee at randomly spaced time intervals. During those time intervals, an image of the observee appeared on a computer monitor watched by the observer. During "control" periods, the video camera remained focused on the observee but the computer monitor did not display his or her image to the observer. There were 16 "influence" periods randomly interspersed with 16 "control" periods, each of 30 seconds, with blank periods of 0 to 5 seconds inserted to rule out patterns in physiology.

Results: To determine whether or not the galvanic skin response of the observees was activated while they were being watched, the response during the control periods was compared with the response during the "influence" periods for each subject. The results were then averaged across subjects. In both experiments, there was greater activity during the periods of being watched than there was during the control periods. The results were statistically significant in each case (p = .036 and .014) and the effect sizes were similar, at 0.39 and 0.49. As preplanned, the results were combined, yielding an effect size of .39 (p = .005). As an interesting post hoc observation, it was noted that the effect was substantially stronger when the observer and observee were of opposite sexes than when they were of the same sex.


So now.. where is the trick?
Last edited by James S Saint on Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 17028
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:24 am

kk, I'll read it and then bounce my problems with it back to you(if I find any).
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:34 am

After this, I have a few experiences that might be of interest along these same lines involving that mystical "ethereal plane".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 17028
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Wobbly » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:42 am

Can't find the actual study, or whatever the hell the CIA released.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:45 am

Yeah, I thought about that after I quoted it.

How about this one instead since we have already read the summary;
Summaries of the studies of linking minds through telepathy using the ganzfeld technique

Source: AN ASSESSMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING Professor Jessica Utts, Division of Statistics, University of California, Davis. (http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html)

Show Credentials

The ganzfeld technique is used to measure whether a receiver can know what a sender in a separate room is viewing. The technique uses sensory deprivation to test for telepathy. Ping-pong balls are put over the receiver's eyes and headphones over the ears. White noise is played through the headset and a bright red light in the room creates a featureless wall before the receivers eyes when seen through the ping pong balls. The receiver's eyes lose focus and have a cloudy view after a while. At the same time, the sender in another room is shown a visual stimulus such as a short video clip. The sender tries to transmit telepathically what he or she is seeing to the subject in the ganzfeld room.

The video clips or other visual stimuli are selected randomly from a large set of items. While the sender concentrates on the target, the receiver provides a continuous verbal report of what he or she seems to see in the cloudy, unfocused wall created by the halved ping-pong balls. Images the viewers describe are compared with the images seen by the subjects. Finally, at the completion of the ganzfeld period, the receiver is presented with several video clips, pictures, or objects, one of which was what the sender was actually seeing, and, without knowing which was the target, is asked to rate the degree to which each matches the image experienced during the ganzfeld period. If the receiver assigns the highest rating to the target stimulus, it is scored as a "hit." Thus, if the experiment uses judging sets containing four stimuli (the target and three decoys or control stimuli), the hit rate expected by chance is .25.

Typically, the ganzfeld experiments show a hit rate of around .35, indicating that the sender and receiver's minds were linked even when separated in different rooms.



Dr. Utts reviewed the studies using the ganzfeld technique at the request of the U.S. government to determine whether they were valid. This is the result of her research.

Abstract:

5.1. Conceptual Similarity: Ganzfeld Experiments

While remote viewing has been the primary activity at SRI and SAIC, other researchers have used a similar technique to test for anomalous cognition, called the ganzfeld. As noted in the SAIC Final Report of 29 Sept. 1994, the ganzfeld experiments differ from remote viewing in three fundamental ways. First, a "mild altered state is used," second, senders are [usually] used, so that telepathy is the primary mode, and third, the receivers (viewers) do their own judging just after the session, rather than having an independent judge.

The ganzfeld experiments conducted at Psychophysical Research Laboratories (PRL) were already mentioned in Section 3.4. Since the time those results were reported, other laboratories have also been conducting ganzfeld experiments. At the 1995 Annual Meeting of the Parapsychological Association, three replications were reported, all published in the peer-reviewed Proceedings of the conference.

The ganzfeld experiments differ in the preferred method of analysis as well. Rather than using the sum of the ranks across sessions, a simple count is made of how many first places matches resulted from a series. Four rather than five choices are given, so by chance there should be about 25% of the sessions resulting in first place matches.

5.2 Ganzfeld Results from Four Laboratories

In publishing the ganzfeld results from PRL, Bem and Honorton (1994) excluded one of the studies from the general analysis for methodological reasons, and found that the remaining studies showed 106 hits out of 329 sessions, for a hit rate of 32.2 percent when 25 percent was expected by chance. The corresponding p-value was .002. As mentioned earlier, the hallmark of science is replication. This result has now been replicated by three additional laboratories.

Bierman (1995) reported four series of experiments conducted at the University of Amsterdam. Overall, there were 124 sessions and 46 hits, for a hit rate of 37 percent. The hit rates for the four individual experiments were 34.3 percent, 37.5 percent, 40 percent and 36.1 percent, so the results are consistent across his four experiments.

Morris, Dalton, Delanoy and Watt (1995) reported results of 97 sessions conducted at the University of Edinburgh in which there were 32 successes, for a hit rate of 33 percent. They conducted approximately equal numbers of sessions under each of three conditions. In one condition there was a known sender, and in the other two conditions it was randomly determined at the last minute (and unknown to the receiver) that there would either be a sender or not. Hit rates were 34 percent when there was a known sender and when there was no sender, and 28 percent when there was a sender but the receiver did not know whether or not there would be. They did discover post hoc that one experimenter was more successful than the other two at achieving successful sessions, but the result was not beyond what would be expected by chance as a post hoc observation.

Broughton and Alexander (1995) reported results from 100 sessions at the Institute for Parapsychology in North Carolina. They too found a similar hit rate, with 33 hits out of 100 sessions, or 33 percent hits.

Results from the original ganzfeld work and these three replications are summarized in Table 3, along with the SRI and SAIC remote viewing results. The effect sizes for the ganzfeld replications are based on Cohen's h, which is similar in type to the effect size used for the remote viewing data. Both effect sizes measure the number of standard deviations the results fall above chance, using the standard deviation for a single session.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 17028
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:54 am

The question as to whether the mind is performing unknowable feats of magical perception is a false and senseless question.


Exactly. So why do you keep asking it? I don't feel, or see the need to ever say 'magic' unless it's like....in a game, or something. Magic is just a slang word for physics playing out. You see all this inquiry as pointless because you're looking at it the wrong way. Of course wondering about magic is pointless. I'm wondering about the syntax of existence.


James S Saint wrote:Geeezz...

Tit-tat
Tit-tat
Is there a rat?
Where is the cat?


People think I'm here trying to be annoying, but I'm here doing my own experiments, and there is a slight difference there. I'm truly trying to learn about people because I seem to look at things very differently.

People say to me, 'there isn't any scientific evidence for [fringe thing] that's just some conspiracy theory. Bring me some 'scientific' evidence and then I'll consider it. Then you bring them the evidence and suddenly they go into a hyper-charged intellectual agility that usually seeks to obfuscate truth rather than seek it out. Every 'fringe' discussion, more often than not, ends with the skeptic demanding the person doing the assertion admit that he doesn't know for sure, even in the face of significant correlation because, well, no one does know for sure. They don't take that conclusion that nothing is 100% knowable with them to the real world and apply it to their beliefs there. They don't do that because it's fucking insane.

Yeah, there are obviously flaws in these experiments, as there are with any experiment, but if you (not the scientists) applied the same level of skepticism to everything as you do with any topic labelled 'fringe,' you wouldn't have beliefs. How many sciences outside of (para)psychology even use double blind studies in practice? How many even still teach it still? If you want to assert what you are, you must go against, somewhat at least, the belief that 'nature is blind' - a belief many academics hold, and ask them to change their practices. Well maybe not that, but you would be dismissing their findings.

To me, the most fascinating thing is when you give people the evidence they asked for, and then they make up excuses as to why they are not going to look at it. I'm not saying it in a condescending manner. It really is the nexus of where much of psychology comes together.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby Gobbo » Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:58 am

When you think about it anything in the 'fringe' is something which the public has decided it just doesn't like. It's de-facto at odds with the public emotionally; if it was not it wouldn't be fringe, it would be an area of grey research, or on-going research, or something. There are things which the public does not consider fringe supported by less scientific data than things which are (and the other way around obviously.) There is no line, intellectually; there is a line emotionally. There is no constant or correlative - education, culture, race, religion, sex - that unites those who purport different so-called 'pseudo-sciences.' The assumption it's all rednecks and religious people is completely false.

As kind of an aside: the term conspiracy theorist is such an effective psychological trigger, and I applaud whoever introduced it, but at the same time it has a very telling effect. The moment someone uses that term (or others like it) to describe what you're saying, as opposed to simply saying 'that argument' or 'that' or whatever someone would say for anything else, you catch a glimpse of their thought process. Similar to someone saying 'gay wedding' instead of 'man wedding' or '2 men getting married' or something, it shows you how the person conceptualizes it. In my experience you can hear the disdain in their voice, then they go on to tell you they're open and unbiased because they watch South Park, or something.
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Re: Latent Psychic Ability in the Religious, and Athiest

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 17, 2011 4:25 am

Old_Gobbo wrote:When you think about it anything in the 'fringe' is something which the public has decided it just doesn't like. It's de-facto at odds with the public emotionally; if it was not it wouldn't be fringe, it would be an area of grey research, or on-going research, or something. There are things which the public does not consider fringe supported by less scientific data than things which are (and the other way around obviously.) There is no line, intellectually; there is a line emotionally. There is no constant or correlative - education, culture, race, religion, sex - that unites those who purport different so-called 'pseudo-sciences.' The assumption it's all rednecks and religious people is completely false.

As kind of an aside: the term conspiracy theorist is such an effective psychological trigger, and I applaud whoever introduced it, but at the same time it has a very telling effect. The moment someone uses that term (or others like it) to describe what you're saying, as opposed to simply saying 'that argument' or 'that' or whatever someone would say for anything else, you catch a glimpse of their thought process. Similar to someone saying 'gay wedding' instead of 'man wedding' or '2 men getting married' or something, it shows you how the person conceptualizes it. In my experience you can hear the disdain in their voice, then they go on to tell you they're open and unbiased because they watch South Park, or something.

Ohhh stop your whining.


:mrgreen:

Haha.. I just thought I'd demonstrate the next step they go to just to make it worse. :lol:

In Old England, they just had people declared insane. In the US after the socialist take over, they just labeled you as paranoid. But since that involves a degree of science now, they just have the magog in society throw random insults and implications at you until whatever you said that isn't supposed to be believed gets buried - playing on the herd mentality syndrome.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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James S Saint
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