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Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:45 am
by Stoic Guardian
James L Walker wrote:Money is simply about enslaving other people. You people here are making the issue harder than it needs to be.

The motivation about money is quite simple. I don't understand why people here don't want to address the real issues.



Money is a standardized bartering chip.

There is nothing more slavish about trying to acquire money in civilization, than it is to try and acquire food in the wilderness.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:24 am
by James L Walker
Stoic Guardian wrote:
James L Walker wrote:Money is simply about enslaving other people. You people here are making the issue harder than it needs to be.

The motivation about money is quite simple. I don't understand why people here don't want to address the real issues.



Money is a standardized bartering chip.

There is nothing more slavish about trying to acquire money in civilization, than it is to try and acquire food in the wilderness.


Wow. That statement doesn't even deserve a response because it's the highest kind of naivety and gullibility.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:25 am
by James L Walker
I see nobody else beyond Stoic wants to address what I have spoken about in this thread.

Intellectual cowardice at it's best.

All of you want to sit and pretend this world is equal where slavery doesn't exist within your contradictory liberal social philosophies.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:02 am
by Stoic Guardian
What's naive or gullible about what I said?

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:05 am
by Carleas
James L Walker wrote:Finally somebody else that sees things for what they are beyond the idealistic facade. People like you and me are a dying breed.

People who think they see the world more clearly than almost everyone else have never been in short supply, and the number of people who actually do has probably always been small.
James L Walker wrote:Society lies to itself. It self deludes itself into a false sense of consciousness.
It tries to shield itself from it's own horrors of it's equally own creation and making.
Self delusion is the type of deception when it concerns deceiving oneself.
Look forward to your response on that.

As I said for lying in general, I always thought lying to oneself was always somehow intentional. There's a difference between being self-deluded and just plain wrong, right? In order to self-delude, you need to know the thing you're deluding yourself about, even if it's on a not-quite-conscious level.
James L Walker wrote:I see nobody else beyond Stoic wants to address what I have spoken about in this thread.[ ]Intellectual cowardice at it's best.

I would, but I like how Stoic said it, so I'll just affirm his statement as deserving a response.
gib wrote:[... S]ometimes other things take the place of money as the prime motivating factor in the psychological drives that push us to do what we do, but money, being the original motivator, always remains the fundamental justification that we offer ourselves (call it a "reminder" of the original reason) for why we're doing what we do, and so long as it works as a justification (i.e. so long as it still makes sense), it will suppress any opposing resentment against the drudgery of the daily grind.

OK, I think I see what your saying, but for me the justification/motivation distinction isn't the best way to capture it (or I still don't understand what you're saying :wink: ). As I understand it, you mean to point out that, once something becomes a higher-order motivator, it's just a justification, in that the connection between the action and that motivator is somehow less accurate than the connection between an action and a first-order motivator. For example, when you are offered money to touch your nose, your decision of whether or not you do it is tied closely to cost/benefit calculation of the value you're offered relative to the cost to you in time/energy/distress (e.g. if you have a sensitive nose) etc. On the other hand, if you accept a job touching your nose, your decision to get up in the morning to go to the job is much less closely tied to true cost/benefit of pay vs. nose-touching, even though when prompted you still point to the cost/benefit to explain your actions. Is that right?

If so, I agree. It looks a lot like status quo bias, although it's more like an explanation for why we end up favoring the way things are: we stop analyzing our underlying assumptions about them.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:24 pm
by Duality
James L Walker wrote:
Duality wrote:
James L Walker wrote:Money is simply about enslaving other people. You people here are making the issue harder than it needs to be.

The motivation about money is quite simple. I don't understand why people here don't want to address the real issues.

'cause it's fun to blame everybody else, but when it comes time to fix up your own shit, thats when everybody bails like the building is on fire.


Finally somebody else that sees things for what they are beyond the idealistic facade. People like you and me are a dying breed.

This whole entire world seems to favor people full of self and collective delusions instead. What a sad world we live in these days..

Yep, this world has really become all about scraping the bottom of the cesspit.


You people miss the entire point of my posts in this thread. Human nature is what it is; I just like to ridicule other people for being douchebags and inferior to me.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:51 pm
by Khrone
Money is simply a standardized bartering chip JLW.
It is a piece of paper exchanged for goods and services.
It only becomes enslaving when a few have most of it and can lower wages/increase prices as they wish.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:09 am
by James L Walker
Khrone wrote:Money is simply a standardized bartering chip JLW.
It is a piece of paper exchanged for goods and services.
It only becomes enslaving when a few have most of it and can lower wages/increase prices as they wish.


It only becomes enslaving when a few have most of it and can lower wages/increase prices as they wish.


What do you think we have at the moment? #-o

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 6:18 am
by gib
Poor corporate slave: I'm a slave to the system. The Man keeps waving his dollar bills in my face with the promise that I can have it if only I toil and sweat for him, like a carrot dangling from a stick and I'm the horse.

The Man: I'm a slave to the system. The "poor" corporate slave keeps waving his talents and skills in my face with the promise that I can use them to make money if only I hand out my hard earned cash out of my own pocket, like a carrot dangling from a stick and I'm the horse.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:31 am
by Stoic Guardian
:D

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:24 am
by Flannel Jesus
gib wrote:Poor corporate slave: I'm a slave to the system. The Man keeps waving his dollar bills in my face with the promise that I can have it if only I toil and sweat for him, like a carrot dangling from a stick and I'm the horse.

The Man: I'm a slave to the system. The "poor" corporate slave keeps waving his talents and skills in my face with the promise that I can use them to make money if only I hand out my hard earned cash out of my own pocket, like a carrot dangling from a stick and I'm the horse.

The (private, non-corporate) Entrepreneur Who Actually Thinks With His Brain: If I offer this guy money and the resources with which he can profitably use his skills, which he otherwise wouldn't have had, and I also take the burden of monetary risk from him, and in exchange for giving him this opportunity and taking all the monetary risk from the venture, I ask from him some of the profits, we can both benefit from the interaction.

The Employee Who Actually Thinks With His Brain: My boss is offering me a deal, and I can choose to accept it or reject it. There's nothing inherently wrong with someone offering me a deal, even if the deal is a bad one. If I find it a bad deal, I can reject the offer. I am no slave to this person, I have analyzed my options and have found that the deal he's offering me is one that is the most profitable for me given all my options, so I accept.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:26 am
by Flannel Jesus
The Corporate Bank Owner: I can risk other peoples' money haphazardly in order to make tons of my own money, and if my risks pay off, I'll be rich! -- if they don't pay off, the government will bail me out, and I'll be rich! Thank you government for providing me with this opportunity! What would us rich people do without "government regulations"?

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:39 pm
by Khrone
James L Walker wrote:
Khrone wrote:Money is simply a standardized bartering chip JLW.
It is a piece of paper exchanged for goods and services.
It only becomes enslaving when a few have most of it and can lower wages/increase prices as they wish.


It only becomes enslaving when a few have most of it and can lower wages/increase prices as they wish.


What do you think we have at the moment? #-o

While that is whats occurring, it is not a property of money that it is enslaving.
Our system is enslaving, not the money.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:55 pm
by gib
Excellent analysis, FJ.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 4:20 pm
by anon
gib wrote:...it is a justification.

We don't drag ourselves out of bed every morning and go to work because we're so eager to get that next pay check. We drag ourselves out of bed every morning because we feel responsible. We're trying to avoid being judged or reprimanded by our bosses or our clients. We're afraid of being castigated as a lazy good-for-nothing by society. Money is not what motivates us.

But it is our justification. When we ask ourselves why we do this - day after day after day - wishing every morning that we could just sleep in for 10 more minutes - what do we tell ourselves? "I'm getting payd!" Thus, after we ask ourselves this question, and answer it, we go on with our day, we go on doing what we push ourselves to do. Money is how we excuse ourselves. It's what we use to silence our complaining and not dwell over the predicaments we find ourselves stuck in.

Many things motivate me - certainly not just money. But I have a job to make money. Making money is my primary motivation for having a job. I guess the only way to test whether I'm telling the truth or not is if I win the lottery (though I never play)...

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:58 am
by James L Walker
gib wrote:Poor corporate slave: I'm a slave to the system. The Man keeps waving his dollar bills in my face with the promise that I can have it if only I toil and sweat for him, like a carrot dangling from a stick and I'm the horse.

The Man: I'm a slave to the system. The "poor" corporate slave keeps waving his talents and skills in my face with the promise that I can use them to make money if only I hand out my hard earned cash out of my own pocket, like a carrot dangling from a stick and I'm the horse.


It's a bit more complex than that and you know it apart from your pointless smug diatribe.

Khrone: While that is whats occurring, it is not a property of money that it is enslaving.
Our system is enslaving, not the money.


The system controls the money supply as it is one of it's main instrumental tools of functioning.

Anon: Many things motivate me - certainly not just money. But I have a job to make money. Making money is my primary motivation for having a job. I guess the only way to test whether I'm telling the truth or not is if I win the lottery (though I never play)...


You have to obtain money and tons of it to do anything within the system of society. That is how money is used to enslave and control people especially when it reduces all life to being an abstract of accesses and restrictions.

Human beings are not naturally inclined to work for others which is why currency was devised as a means of controlling the daily behaviors or activities of people by that of coercive motivation within it's abstract rewards and punishments.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:12 am
by gib
James L Walker wrote:It's a bit more complex than that and you know it apart from your pointless smug diatribe.


In what way is it more complex?

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:16 am
by James L Walker
gib wrote:
James L Walker wrote:It's a bit more complex than that and you know it apart from your pointless smug diatribe.


In what way is it more complex?


You really have to ask?

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:54 am
by gib
James L Walker wrote:You really have to ask?


Obviously, it's far more complex - in many ways - which way are you thinking of?

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:36 pm
by Carleas
James L Walker wrote:Human beings are not naturally inclined to work for others which is why currency was devised as a means of controlling the daily behaviors or activities of people by that of coercive motivation within it's abstract rewards and punishments.

Humans naturally engage in economic activity. The most 'natural' is bartering; many monkeys and apes (including humans) have instinctive intuitions about what constitutes a 'fair' trade, though to my knowledge only humans engage in spontaneous exchanges of goods. As someone has already said, money is just an abstraction of bartering, allowing the value of exchanges to be saved up or divided, and allowing people to engage in mutually beneficial exchanges even if they couldn't make a direct exchange of goods.

It's actually possible to re-appropriate monkeys' economic instincts to get them to use a abstracted means of exchange:
Dubner and Levitt wrote:When taught to use money, a group of capuchin monkeys responded quite rationally to simple incentives; responded irrationally to risky gambles; failed to save; stole when they could; used money for food and, on occasion, sex.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:25 am
by Duality
For Hegel, the unhappy consciousness is divided against itself, separated from its ‘essence’, which it has placed in a ‘beyond’. Marx used essentially the same notion to portray the situation of modern individuals—especially modern wage labourers—who are deprived of a fulfilling mode of life because their life-activity as socially productive agents is devoid of any sense of communal action or satisfaction and gives them no ownership over their own lives or their products. In modern society, individuals are alienated in so far as their common human essence, the actual co-operative activity which naturally unites them, is power-less in their lives, which are subject to an inhuman power—created by them, but separating and dominating them instead of being subject to their united will. This is the power of the market, which is ‘free’ only in the sense that it is beyond the control of its human creators, enslaving them by separating them from one another, from their activity, and from its products.


Columbine High School? Oklahoma City? Virginia Tech? Thats only the beginning.

You will get alot more: "I woke up one morning, and I didn't like where I was" scenarios, as the human psyche continues to break down even further.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:45 pm
by Duality
Merry Xmas

Christmas Shooting: 7 People Shot Dead In Texas Home, Motive Unclear

GRAPEVINE, Texas — Six members of a Texas family apparently opened Christmas presents just before a relative dressed as Santa Claus showed up, opened fire and killed them before killing himself, police said Monday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/26/7-people-celebrating-chri_n_1169826.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D123081

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 10:58 pm
by James L Walker
Duality wrote:Merry Xmas

Christmas Shooting: 7 People Shot Dead In Texas Home, Motive Unclear

GRAPEVINE, Texas — Six members of a Texas family apparently opened Christmas presents just before a relative dressed as Santa Claus showed up, opened fire and killed them before killing himself, police said Monday.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/26/7-people-celebrating-chri_n_1169826.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D123081


Somebody did not get what they wanted for Christmas where instead they decided to take it out on others by depriving them of life itself. :-k

For Hegel, the unhappy consciousness is divided against itself, separated from its ‘essence’, which it has placed in a ‘beyond’. Marx used essentially the same notion to portray the situation of modern individuals—especially modern wage labourers—who are deprived of a fulfilling mode of life because their life-activity as socially productive agents is devoid of any sense of communal action or satisfaction and gives them no ownership over their own lives or their products. In modern society, individuals are alienated in so far as their common human essence, the actual co-operative activity which naturally unites them, is power-less in their lives, which are subject to an inhuman power—created by them, but separating and dominating them instead of being subject to their united will. This is the power of the market, which is ‘free’ only in the sense that it is beyond the control of its human creators, enslaving them by separating them from one another, from their activity, and from its products.


Columbine High School? Oklahoma City? Virginia Tech? Thats only the beginning.

You will get alot more: "I woke up one morning, and I didn't like where I was" scenarios, as the human psyche continues to break down even further.


Increased public killings having a correlation with that of stagnation and individual repression within society?

Nah, that cannot be! I read the news earlier today where it told me that everything was all well in the world where all I need to do is keep shopping, working, and take the occasional sedative in order that I blissfully keep paying my taxes for the greater management of government.

That sort of talking is distracting me from my blissful daily programming and indoctrination where I am completely unaware of the world around me as I graze in the local suburban pasture. Bah!

In the next 11 years look foreword to violent group insurrections starting everywhere. My, this is so much fun!

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:15 pm
by James L Walker
Carleas wrote:
James L Walker wrote:Human beings are not naturally inclined to work for others which is why currency was devised as a means of controlling the daily behaviors or activities of people by that of coercive motivation within it's abstract rewards and punishments.

Humans naturally engage in economic activity. The most 'natural' is bartering; many monkeys and apes (including humans) have instinctive intuitions about what constitutes a 'fair' trade, though to my knowledge only humans engage in spontaneous exchanges of goods. As someone has already said, money is just an abstraction of bartering, allowing the value of exchanges to be saved up or divided, and allowing people to engage in mutually beneficial exchanges even if they couldn't make a direct exchange of goods.

It's actually possible to re-appropriate monkeys' economic instincts to get them to use a abstracted means of exchange:
Dubner and Levitt wrote:When taught to use money, a group of capuchin monkeys responded quite rationally to simple incentives; responded irrationally to risky gambles; failed to save; stole when they could; used money for food and, on occasion, sex.


Humans naturally engage in economic activity.


What is economic activity?

Explain.

The most 'natural' is bartering; many monkeys and apes (including humans) have instinctive intuitions about what constitutes a 'fair' trade, though to my knowledge only humans engage in spontaneous exchanges of goods.


As far as I know human beings are the only species that enslave one another.


As someone has already said, money is just an abstraction of bartering, allowing the value of exchanges to be saved up or divided, and allowing people to engage in mutually beneficial exchanges even if they couldn't make a direct exchange of goods.


Fiat money is no longer worth it's own value of exchange in bartering where anymore it's used as a symbolic instrument of power in a service based economy. It serves only as a behavioral controlling mechanism.

Laborers do not even receive their equal value of wealth back in return for their services rendered in creating products, goods, or commodities.

This is how money or currency has left its traditional origin of bartering.



It's actually possible to re-appropriate monkeys' economic instincts to get them to use a abstracted means of exchange:


:lol:

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:19 pm
by Carleas
Duality wrote:This is the power of the market, which is ‘free’ only in the sense that it is beyond the control of its human creators, enslaving them by separating them from one another, from their activity, and from its products.

This is empirically dubious. For all that people can be divided by class and wealth, increasing exchanges tends to increase peace and mutual prosperity. Countries that trade do not fight each other, and people who trade generally have good relationships. The reason is that the exchanges are mutually beneficial: both parties trade a good they value less for a good they value more. Neither wants to jeopardize the relationship.

You blame money for the predicament of those unsatisfied with their lives, but few take the risks necessary to find a better paying job, or to gain the skills necessary to make themselves more valuable in the market, and more proximately few make the sacrifices necessary to accumulate a savings that would buffer them against the risks of a transition. Other loci of blame are the cartels that fix pricing on services, that prohibit trade, that over-regulate markets to the detriment of the fluidity and freedom that make the market work. The market economy has clearly created a lot of good, why condemn the whole system over the imperfect margins?

James L Walker wrote:What is economic activity? Explain.

Humans have innate economic intuitions, meaning that they appraise the fairness of exchanges without being taught to do so, or even told to do so in a given instance. This is true of many if not all apes and monkeys. Humans also spontaneously engage in exchanges, trading one thing of value for another. By "spontaneously," I mean without being forced to or instructed to or how. Children begin trading e.g. food items from a young age. This is a direct rebuttal to the claim that "[h]uman beings are not naturally inclined to work for others": "work[ing] for others" is just an exchange of values, with one party offering goods (or their abstraction) in exchange for the time, energy, or skill of another. There is nothing particularly "unnatural" about this exchange, and it is founded on instinctive economic mechanisms.

James L Walker wrote:As far as I know human beings are the only species that enslave one another.

I don't think that's true. Ants and bees are slaves to their queens. If you discount this form of slavery, I think it would be because you include in slavery certain mental characteristics that will exclude any non human animals not by virtue of their conduct, but by virtue of their limited cognition.

James L Walker wrote:Laborers do not even receive their equal value of wealth back in return for their services rendered in creating products, goods, or commodities.

Equal value as defined by who? If no one is willing to give a person more than x for a certain good (where x is a quantity of goods or an abstraction of their value), in what sense can it be said that the value of the good is greater than x? The value of a good is not an objective quality of it; it's defined economically relative to other goods by a collection of exchanges.

There are times when that mechanism breaks down, and in particular a monopsony will undervalue a good, in that the single buyer would be willing to pay more for the good, but does not have to because she knows that sellers are choosing between underselling and not selling at all. Even still, the prices must be higher than the value of the goods to the seller, or else he will just choose to keep the goods rather than exchanging them.

In any case, the existence of market failures is well known, and relatively rigorously defined. The seeming allegation in the latter half of this thread that the market always fails is untenable, at least on the scant rhetorical evidence offered in support of it.
James L Walker wrote: :lol:

Elaborate?