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Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:48 am
by gib
...it is a justification.

We don't drag ourselves out of bed every morning and go to work because we're so eager to get that next pay check. We drag ourselves out of bed every morning because we feel responsible. We're trying to avoid being judged or reprimanded by our bosses or our clients. We're afraid of being castigated as a lazy good-for-nothing by society. Money is not what motivates us.

But it is our justification. When we ask ourselves why we do this - day after day after day - wishing every morning that we could just sleep in for 10 more minutes - what do we tell ourselves? "I'm getting payd!" Thus, after we ask ourselves this question, and answer it, we go on with our day, we go on doing what we push ourselves to do. Money is how we excuse ourselves. It's what we use to silence our complaining and not dwell over the predicaments we find ourselves stuck in.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 6:50 pm
by Duality
absolutely. unfortunately, most people are too Fucking stupid to realize they've been lied to.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 7:38 pm
by gib
The stupidity I agree with. I don't think anybody's being lied to though. I think those who allegedly "lie" are just as fooled by the myth that money motivates as those who are "lied" to. IOW, everybody's stupid.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:34 pm
by Archangel
I would also agree that money is not what motivates a person. It's a convenient excuse for a much deeper quest, one for meaning and purpose. It's like a flotation belt that keeps a person above surface while one tries to find oneself in an entirely artificial world through servitude and obedience to just about everyone and everything - except oneself. Pursuing one's own agendas is highly dangerous to the rest, who's agendas are different (they frequently are) and they are willing to do anything to control and inhibit it...

One can have money and still be miserable, this we know. Money is never the goal, and there lies a common misconception - it is only a symbol of value, not the actual value... both economically and philosophically...

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:55 pm
by Duality
gib wrote:The stupidity I agree with. I don't think anybody's being lied to though. I think those who allegedly "lie" are just as fooled by the myth that money motivates as those who are "lied" to. IOW, everybody's stupid.

if it's wrong, it's still a lie. Plus, it's not like they are completely unaware of what they are doing. One of the tactics is to divide and conquer. You dont want to end up like these poor losers, so you have to beat them out and hoard a large amount wealth. Anything to make people feel disconnected and inferior/superior to one another is used as propaganda. Race, age, ethnicity, religion, social class, income, neighborhood, etc.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 10:46 pm
by gib
Duality wrote:if it's wrong, it's still a lie.


If it's wrong, it's a mistake. A lie implies knowing that one is deceiving.

Duality wrote:Plus, it's not like they are completely unaware of what they are doing. One of the tactics is to divide and conquer. You dont want to end up like these poor losers, so you have to beat them out and hoard a large amount wealth. Anything to make people feel disconnected and inferior/superior to one another is used as propaganda. Race, age, ethnicity, religion, social class, income, neighborhood, etc.


I don't think you can ascribe to a whole class of people what they're all thinking. I'm sure some of them are aware of their true motives, but even then that doesn't mean they're deceiving those who work under them. What's preventing them from honestly proposing a mutually beneficial arrangement: you work for me, I'll pay you so much money periodically. Very rarely do they go into indepth discussions about the roll money plays in the psychology of motivation and justification. Neither party really cares about that, just as long as they agree to the arrangement. In fact, I doubt either party very often even thinks about the matter in the privacy of their own minds. The general assumption in society is that money is a motivator. Both parties typically take this for granted without thinking about it. I agree that the bottom line is self-interest and wealth, but this need not always play out on a conscious level, and even when it does, it doesn't always require deception (vis-a-vis my example of the honest proposal), and even if it did involve deception, that doesn't mean either party knows that money is really a justification for work rather than a motivator.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:11 pm
by Duality
gib wrote:
Duality wrote:if it's wrong, it's still a lie.


If it's wrong, it's a mistake. A lie implies knowing that one is deceiving.

No it doesnt. If it's not true, it's still a lie.

you miss the point on the rest of it also. Hoarding wealth requires jipping other members of the human race out of what they rightly deserve. The fruits of their labor. In order to do this, you have to divide and conquer and create an atmosphere of fear so that the collective entity is no longer a threat to you. What I am saying is that there is no chance in hell that they are fully ignorant of what they are doing. They might be partially ignorant, but that's as far as it goes.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:48 pm
by Khrone
I don't necessarily agree. We do what we do because we want things (food, home, car, playthings etc.).
So if the motivation is to get things we don't have and the only way to get those things is by purchasing or stealing,
and money is the most common way to purchase things; money is kinda the motivation by association.

In my opinion at least.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:38 am
by James L Walker
Money is power and like every other sort of power it becomes a institutionalized tyranny where money itself becomes a coercive device of controlling others.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:57 am
by Innovice
i think for most people it is justification

i think people are motivated by ideas tied to money, but most don't have the ability to succeed in this regard

for instance, currently i'm motivated by the idea of retiring at a young age (stability/security). i think that working hard, and gaining a large sum of money now, would more quickly give rise to a passive income than doing otherwise. using this passive income, i could have financial stability for the future, and use the remainder of my time to do strictly what i enjoy, with significantly less problems related to financial stability/security.

chances are i will not be able to retire at a significantly young age, or when i mature (lets say 10/20/30/40/ years from now), my views may have changed such that the motivation no longer exists in the same form

money is the means, perhaps an easier one to understand, ... to work towards my goal

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 3:13 am
by gib
Duality wrote:No it doesnt. If it's not true, it's still a lie.


If it's not true, it's a potato (so long as I define 'potato' as "that which is not true"). You're just attributing arbitrary definitions to words.

Duality wrote:you miss the point on the rest of it also. Hoarding wealth requires jipping other members of the human race out of what they rightly deserve. The fruits of their labor. In order to do this, you have to divide and conquer and create an atmosphere of fear so that the collective entity is no longer a threat to you.


This is not only true of humans, but the animal kingdom in general. But most animals don't "deceive" - deception implies thought, understanding, interpretation - something only humans possess (and if a small handful of other animals also possess it, it wouldn't be nearly to the same extent). So no, deception is not necessary for some to strip wealth and property from other. This tendency for forced inequality is so entrenched in our species that most of the time it goes on unconsciously. Thought typically comes into play, not to make us aware of this tendency, but to help us deny it, to help us make up excuses and justifications for it, the aim of which is to make us feel OK with doing it. Typcially, it is both the oppressor and the oppressed who buy into it.

Duality wrote:What I am saying is that there is no chance in hell that they are fully ignorant of what they are doing. They might be partially ignorant, but that's as far as it goes.


You will find that the range varies among those in power and high status as much as it does among those who are suppressed and low status. In both groups, you will find as many people who are completely ignorant of this reality as you will find people who are fully aware of it - and everything in between.

Still, I don't see the relevance of this to the distinction between money as a motivator and money as a justification.



Khrone wrote:I don't necessarily agree. We do what we do because we want things (food, home, car, playthings etc.).
So if the motivation is to get things we don't have and the only way to get those things is by purchasing or stealing,
and money is the most common way to purchase things; money is kinda the motivation by association.

In my opinion at least.


I think we mean 'motivation' in different ways. I'm thinking chiefly about the immediate impulse or emotional drive that pushes us to do what we do. When I drag my ass out of bed in the morning to go to work, money never enters my mind for a second; rather, thoughts about what I 'ought' to do, or fear of being reprimanded for coming in late, come to mind. And when I'm at my job, working diligently on a project, trying to meet deadlines and solve problems, money is again the last thing on my mind; rather, I'm motivated by the desire to accomplish something, to please my bosses, to create.

When I say that money is the justification for what I do, I mean it is the element in the arrangement between my boss and I that makes it fair, makes it OK, that I should do work for him. It's the green light to go ahead and do such work.

I understand where you're coming from though; I understand that we seek out jobs to begin with because we need money in order to live. But again, this plays the roll of justification. We reason out in our heads, not only why we're looking for work, but that we need to in order to survive. It is the justification underlying this reasoning. What's actually motivating me during these times of job searching is a feeling of obligation, that this is just something one does when one is unemployed. There is also the motivation to be rational, to predict that if I don't find a job or a source of income then one day I will starve, or lose shelter, and other essentials, and if that ever happens, only then will hunger, a loss of shelter, and other essentials become my prime motivation to look for work and money. Only then will they motivate because only then will they actually come in as these immediate impulses and emotional drives pushing me to find work and money. Until then, however, other kinds of impulse and emotions must fill in to motivate me such as feelings of obligation, of not wanting to be called a dead-beat bum, of wanting to be rational, etc.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:37 am
by Mr Reasonable
I read, "money is not a motivation....it's a justification".
I knew I only agreed halfway.
I didn't read the part about how it's a justification, cause that just seems like bad English to say.
The three biggest motivators out there, in this order.
1)money
2)hos
3)clothes

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:19 pm
by gib
Smears wrote:1)money
2)hos
3)clothes


And it rhymes to :D

Smears wrote:I didn't read the part about how it's a justification, cause that just seems like bad English to say.


Maybe reading it would rectify that.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:51 pm
by Duality
You are the one attributing arbitrary definitions to words, not me son.

Lol, what the fuck is a potato?

gib wrote:
Duality wrote:you miss the point on the rest of it also. Hoarding wealth requires jipping other members of the human race out of what they rightly deserve. The fruits of their labor. In order to do this, you have to divide and conquer and create an atmosphere of fear so that the collective entity is no longer a threat to you.


But most animals don't "deceive" - deception implies thought, understanding, interpretation - something only humans possess (and if a small handful of other animals also possess it, it wouldn't be nearly to the same extent). So no, deception is not necessary for some to strip wealth and property from other. This tendency for forced inequality is so entrenched in our species that most of the time it goes on unconsciously. Thought typically comes into play, not to make us aware of this tendency, but to help us deny it, to help us make up excuses and justifications for it, the aim of which is to make us feel OK with doing it. Typcially, it is both the oppressor and the oppressed who buy into it.

hence my first post. The tendency to accept your own oppression indicates you're a fucking moron.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:54 pm
by James L Walker
Duality wrote:You are the one attributing arbitrary definitions to words, not me son.

Lol, what the fuck is a potato?

gib wrote:
Duality wrote:you miss the point on the rest of it also. Hoarding wealth requires jipping other members of the human race out of what they rightly deserve. The fruits of their labor. In order to do this, you have to divide and conquer and create an atmosphere of fear so that the collective entity is no longer a threat to you.


But most animals don't "deceive" - deception implies thought, understanding, interpretation - something only humans possess (and if a small handful of other animals also possess it, it wouldn't be nearly to the same extent). So no, deception is not necessary for some to strip wealth and property from other. This tendency for forced inequality is so entrenched in our species that most of the time it goes on unconsciously. Thought typically comes into play, not to make us aware of this tendency, but to help us deny it, to help us make up excuses and justifications for it, the aim of which is to make us feel OK with doing it. Typcially, it is both the oppressor and the oppressed who buy into it.

hence my first post. The tendency to accept your own oppression indicates you're a fucking moron.


A potato is something you put chili, cheese, chives, butter, and sour cream on followed by digestion. :lol: :D

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:01 am
by Duality
James L Walker wrote:A potato is something you put chili, cheese, chives, butter, and sour cream on followed by digestion. :lol: :D
Thanks for clearing that up. Originally I was beginning to believe it was the new colloquialism for saying something thats not true when you didnt know it was a lie :animals-chickencatch:


derp

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:05 am
by James L Walker
Duality wrote:
James L Walker wrote:A potato is something you put chili, cheese, chives, butter, and sour cream on followed by digestion. :lol: :D
Thanks for clearing that up. Originally I was beginning to believe it was the new colloquialism for saying something thats not true when you didnt know it was a lie :animals-chickencatch:


derp


:D

No problem. I'm here with my stand up routine very often if you need me.

I like your style. :wink:

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:42 am
by gib
Duality wrote:hence my first post. The tendency to accept your own oppression indicates you're a fucking moron.


If you had used the word 'lie' properly, I would have agreed.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:52 pm
by The Golden Turd
Ill finish reading this thread tonight, gotta head to my job to make some money now.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:17 pm
by James L Walker
Money is simply about enslaving other people. You people here are making the issue harder than it needs to be.

The motivation about money is quite simple. I don't understand why people here don't want to address the real issues.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 11:02 pm
by Duality
James L Walker wrote:Money is simply about enslaving other people. You people here are making the issue harder than it needs to be.

The motivation about money is quite simple. I don't understand why people here don't want to address the real issues.

'cause it's fun to blame everybody else, but when it comes time to fix up your own shit, thats when everybody bails like the building is on fire.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:48 am
by Carleas
Duality, is there no difference between a mistake and a lie? I tend to agree with Gib that a lie requires the intention to mislead, so that one who is themselves misled and perpetuates their mistake is simply mistaken, they are not lying. But I can imagine a use of the word lie somewhere in between; we might say that "society lies to us," when the abstract society is the one misleading us and the information is in the whole, but no part of society (i.e. individual) is aware that they are perpetuating a falsity.

In any case, I disagree with the proposed mistake. This is a good start at nailing down the positions:
gib wrote:I think we mean 'motivation' in different ways. I'm thinking chiefly about the immediate impulse or emotional drive that pushes us to do what we do. When I drag my ass out of bed in the morning to go to work, money never enters my mind for a second; rather, thoughts about what I 'ought' to do, or fear of being reprimanded for coming in late, come to mind. And when I'm at my job, working diligently on a project, trying to meet deadlines and solve problems, money is again the last thing on my mind; rather, I'm motivated by the desire to accomplish something, to please my bosses, to create.

I don't think the fact that there are intermediates that could properly be called motivators means that money cannot be a motivator. The motivation to accomplish something is motivated by desire to please ones bosses is motivated by the desire for money (is motivated by everything that money buys).

When I say that money is the justification for what I do, I mean it is the element in the arrangement between my boss and I that makes it fair, makes it OK, that I should do work for him. It's the green light to go ahead and do such work.

Why not say that the work is the element in the arrangement that makes it fair that your boss should pay you? It's an exchange of values: you give up your time and efforts in exchange for money; your boss gives up his money in exchange for the your work (the product of which is valuable to him). The paying and the working only happen because the desire for the value received motivates the exchange.

Is it at all in question that in some circumstances money is clearly a motivator? If I offer you a dollar to touch your nose, it's clearly not like you've just been waiting for an excuse to touch your nose.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 2:54 am
by James L Walker
Duality wrote:
James L Walker wrote:Money is simply about enslaving other people. You people here are making the issue harder than it needs to be.

The motivation about money is quite simple. I don't understand why people here don't want to address the real issues.

'cause it's fun to blame everybody else, but when it comes time to fix up your own shit, thats when everybody bails like the building is on fire.


Finally somebody else that sees things for what they are beyond the idealistic facade. People like you and me are a dying breed.

This whole entire world seems to favor people full of self and collective delusions instead. What a sad world we live in these days.

Carleas:
Duality, is there no difference between a mistake and a lie? I tend to agree with Gib that a lie requires the intention to mislead, so that one who is themselves misled and perpetuates their mistake is simply mistaken, they are not lying. But I can imagine a use of the word lie somewhere in between; we might say that "society lies to us," when the abstract society is the one misleading us and the information is in the whole, but no part of society (i.e. individual) is aware that they are perpetuating a falsity.


Society lies to itself. It self deludes itself into a false sense of consciousness.

It tries to shield itself from it's own horrors of it's equally own creation and making.

Self delusion is the type of deception when it concerns deceiving oneself.

Look forward to your response on that.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:17 am
by James L Walker
In the old days they used brute violent force to enslave the masses into hard labor, toil, and the agony of complete utter servitude.

They did this by sword, whip, or musket. They did it by all malicious means and intents. In today's world brutality of violence to enslave others has been traded in for the more subtle approach of overpowering others by that of the value of currency itself where slavery comes out by that of a wage where the slaves themselves are made to believe that they are free. It's quite brilliant really or at least it was for awhile until fairly recently when all the proles started awaking to their pressing situation causing those in control of the whole process to be fearful out of their wits where they still are to this day.

Most people abhor working for others where money is used as a force of control and directing where it becomes the means of motivating people to do what they otherwise wouldn't do on their own.

Those in power know this fairly well and so since they control the pyramid of power or consolidation controlling the very financial distribution methods themselves by influencing money they use such methods completely in order to direct the daily activities of all the masses around them.

Money is a tool of power and control. It is nothing more. Let's not make this a complicated issue people.

Re: Money is not motivation...

PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:30 am
by gib
Duality wrote:'cause it's fun to blame everybody else, but when it comes time to fix up your own shit, thats when everybody bails like the building is on fire.


And that's exactly what the intention of this thread was meant to be. I harped on you're "blame the lying capitalists" approach, Duality, because my intention wasn't to point the finger at anyone for putting us into this financial arrangement (I think we're all victims of it), but rather to force each one of us individually to reflect on our own motivations and excuses for going back to the daily grind again and again. What we do once we come to grips with this deeper self-awareness is up to each individual.

Carleas wrote:Is it at all in question that in some circumstances money is clearly a motivator? If I offer you a dollar to touch your nose, it's clearly not like you've just been waiting for an excuse to touch your nose.


I was waiting for someone to bring this up. Yes, money in this case would be a motivator. One must "crave" the money. I didn't mean to convey that money is never a motivator, just that sometimes other things take the place of money as the prime motivating factor in the psychological drives that push us to do what we do, but money, being the original motivator, always remains the fundamental justification that we offer ourselves (call it a "reminder" of the original reason) for why we're doing what we do, and so long as it works as a justification (i.e. so long as it still makes sense), it will suppress any opposing resentment against the drudgery of the daily grind.