Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

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Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 1:04 pm

Why most of the USA, EU and JAPAN are destined to low to zero or negative economic growth for many years in the future no matter what structurally, no matter what economical policies they choose (either left or right no difference), Anything any government does, any politics either right or left, Democratic or Republican won't change any of these deep large scale structural effects killing any future economic growth for years:

1) Technology kills more jobs than creates;

2) Hundreds of millions of new workers worldwide available now, China, India, Indonesia, etc;

3) Saturated markets, the west has bought all it needs, it has already way too much stuff;

4) Resources are strained, Oil is running out, agriculture strained, etc.

5) No new big technology novelties that can create many jobs;

6) Population is higher and higher, too many people for too little wealth;

7) Green ideology and evironmentalists kill developments and possible growth (against, skyscrapers, high speed trains, etc.);

8 ) Environment is strained, pollution and such;

9) Much older population, too old to work, old people not good enough for technology;

10) Accumulation of debts, too many pensions to pay, etc.;

11) Competition kills a lot of jobs in a lot of places, like Germany is the winner take all in cars, Spain and Greece can't build their own BMWs or Mercedes models, they are not good enough or smart enough or "work hard" enough whatever;

12) The west killed unions and worker protection because it thinks that that is bad for the economy, but it mostly just makes the rich richer;

13) The financial and fluff side of the economy dominates and hence makes the rich richer and takes money away from all the middle class and poor, etc;
Last edited by nameta9 on Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:32 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:15 pm

Now, go on Jesus, Son of man, King of the Jews, tell me how is this post different from all the previous ones ? ( you never talk about the ideas, you just personalize the threads and talk about all of these idiotic side effects and things, what a c*ck you and almost all others are, never issue the ideas, just issue the person, too many links to yourself and such stuff, etc.! say to me, "your ideas suck because people are lazy and don't want to work, !" Ok at least you debate the idea, or something similar):

This post is different because it adds all the reasons the left, greens and rights state why the economy sucks and won't grow anymore: the right wing says we are all too lazy and old and not educated enough and not competitive enough (like against the Germans), the left wing says the economy sucks structurally because it kills jobs, the greens because we have Peak Oil and resources are running out, etc.

So the reasons are probably all of the above mixed up, so the economy will not grow anymore, no matter what.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:31 pm

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/01/murmuration.html

Now, pray, tell me, which is your favorite reason ?

On this website: 4, 6, 8

For me, all of them.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 4:44 pm

And even if it is true that money doesn't really exist and the debts are really not there, and we have excess capacity thanks to the Technological Economy and such, the rules of the game are such that debts must somehow be paid back (hence health care, future retirement pays and pensions, and all kinds of social welfare programs will have less and less cash, etc.) and most governments in the EU, USA and JAPAN are following a right wing fire workers, small businesses will create jobs, less taxes for the rich program and such anyways.

And if it isn't the governments, then most people are anti-consumerist Green Environmentalist thugs (killing jobs in the process) all afraid of Global Warming (killing consumption and such) and in the end doing all they can to make those societies even poorer and having even less work, go figure.

Anyways, it is amazing that the standard of living in these three stooges economies USA, EU and JAPAN is still so high considering all the forces working against them ! And anyways a very important point is that there are simply not enough really new technologies capable of creating millions of jobs as has happended in the past (cars, jets, computers, etc.): iphones and tablets and facebook may create some, but it is just not enough, it just won't cut it anymore...


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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby Mr Reasonable » Sun Jan 29, 2012 5:08 pm

I think it's bad for people to think in terms of how their country is doing. It's so hard to have an effect on it, and it's so easy to feel like your personal financial life is dictated by it.

It's easy to just stay poor and say, "the economy is bad the world is just shitty right now".

I prefer instead to focus on my own finances. I dunno about the rest of the world, but in the US, if you want to have money, you can get it. I'm not going to have to cut back on my groceries, or stop taking vacations, or lower my insurance to a crappier plan.

So while people in the US who traditionally make money off investments are feeling a bit of pressure, and people who traditionally get money in the form of welfare or social security or whatever are feeling the pressure because the rich don't wanna feed em if they're not making any money on the inverstments.

You just wanna be one of those people who's numbers fall in the middle, but who's actual day to day falls somewhere toward the top of the spectrum.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:34 am

These are all running constants, running numbers in the sense that they are all getting worse everyday: technology is killing ever more jobs (along with optimizations and competition, especially competition: the very meaning of the word implies some group winning because it worked harder and smarter, that is, it used less input for the same output (productivity increase ?) therefore winning market share, but less input means fewer jobs, etc.), population keeps on increasing (even though slowing down, but still it is a constant positive increase everyday: what on earth jobs will all of these turds and slobs do ? and how will they buy houses (or rent) since they have no cash since they are worthless slobs who should have never been born ? oh, I see they will kill each other like in Libya, Syria and a host of other sh*tholes, ok ), pollution keeps on increasing and global warming keeps on making the weather go crazy, no hope on that side either, ever more workers who will work for anything between 300 to 800 dollars a month (even doctors and engineers, and anyways 800 is considered a very high salary in most of the world) keep on coming on line while in the USA, EU and JAPAN those kinds of salaries are considered poor.

All running constants like the rich keep on getting richer and killing any hope of economic growth since they don't spend money, they already have everything, they just use it to play the financial poker games, for fun, just because, because they are bored, and so on.

No hope at all that large public private projects like thousands of Rockets and Skyscrapers and High Speed Trains creating jobs either since all the Green Thugs are against this and governments are all against this since they want the Invisible Hand of the markets to do its magic while if you directly say what must be produced, well that is a sin, that is against Nature, that means really creating jobs because you are finally saying clearly and loudly and specifically what on earth those jobs will be used for: but all the economists keep on chanting this BS of "More Education", now whatever the hell does that have anything to do with jobs ? Education to do what ? Why do they never explain exactly what and how all of this more education BS can be connected to jobs ? We need more "Information Workers" like a hole in the head, we already have loads of Educated people working at McDonalds, what on earth are they supposed to do with all of that Information and Knowledge ? What c*cks, beat all those economists up, punch them all in the face, will you, please ?

And anyways Information (and those producing them as a corollary) will be worth zero soon since the Internet is choke full of it, being produced constantly for free, and something that is so abundant ends up being worth zero anyways.

All running numbers, every new car and house and new crap bought at WalMart and such just adds to the saturation of the markets in the USA, EU and JAPAN, just keeps on adding more stuff we don't need, ever more stuff, all trash, throw it all away, we are drowning in crap and saturated markets, how on earth is that going to create "more jobs" ?

And then Energy and Oil is running out, all the environment is strained, (according to the Resource Scarcity thugs) but anyways, what a contorted system, we have loads of stuff in saturated markets and everything is running out at the same time, go figure, what a clustph*k.

The debts keep on rising, ever more trillions in the three stooges economies, those numbers keep on going up everyday and no one knows how to pay it back, people are getting older and retiring ever more everyday with all of their "Entitlements" (notice the use of this word, as saying those who want what they paid for are thieves asking for something for free) needing to be paid back but no one knows how to pay it back since all money is now declared finished, over, there is no longer any money left in the world (at least for anything social like entitlements, pensions, welfare, etc.).

And especially the dream that all these new technologies would create millions of new jobs, that all of the Research and Development would create new sectors and new jobs and such has turned into a nightmare of that technology doing the exact opposite (and what it should do if it is of any possible rational use!) kill jobs, automate, simplify, kill middle men and jobs (by using computers and the Internet and such). This dream can easily be traced to the expectation that the future would be like the last 300 years with all of these large scale novelties like Electricity, Trains, Cars, Jets, Computers and so many new applications of technology creating entire industries and millions of jobs: but that cycle is over now, all of the large scale jobs creating and industry creating inventions and Innovations and Research and Development have finished doing their magic, the positive feedback loop is over now, now it has turned into a negative feedback loop killing ever more jobs, now it is payback time, now all of that stuff is being used to kill jobs and not create them.

Anyways, all of this may be 100 % wrong and irrelevant, all of the above may simply be a mental model totally irrelevant and not related to reality: since how on earth can the USA, EU and JAPAN maintain such a high standard of living with so few real jobs (most jobs are flufforama BS services that just drain resources and are fun and games like IPADS and IPHONES and FACEBOOK, lawyers, etc.) being performed anyways ? So maybe all of our mental models of the economy are useless trash, throw away any model, throw away any hope of understanding the economy and job creation and such since there is probably nothing to understand as it has no patterns or models associated to it, it is just a constant interaction of random contrasting forces going anywhere and doing anything.

Actually throw away all thought and any and all mental models, free your mind instead, thought is a sickness, it must be eliminated, kill thought and thinking.

TOBOR AN APE
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby James L Walker » Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:58 pm

Do not tell that to the hopeful idiots here and elsewhere. Hopium for everybody! Breathe it in!
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:51 pm

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/01/jive-talkin.html

"Every gas engine built by the majors is like a yawning stomach, an iron metabolism waiting to convert ancient sunlight to carbon dioxide. "

Suck it up Busty: it is just Carbon Chemistry, nothing hard or fancy, alternatives to gasoline will come sooner or later, don't worry. And stop being against Progress. And then with removable battery packs in electric cars, that could be a solution too. And then with many skyscrapers having stores and offices and plants and whatever on many different levels, you don't even need a car, just an elevator to move people. And then the very market itself will take care of it gradually, if gas starts costing more Man will adapt, first smaller cars, then smaller living areas, and many many other solutions, etc.

You are just in love with your mental model, with your idea, just like JHK and other gloomsters and doomster that there are no solutions, that we are doomed, that nothing will be possible etc.

And I agree, technology has peaked in the sense that most large scale game changing inventions and applications are now here, not many new technologies will come on line anymore: but we can optimize them and especially change how life is organized (like in Skyscrapers instead of highways, like on Mars and such), we will adapt and go forward.

And stick a V8 engine in your brain, maybe you will learn something...

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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:23 pm

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

and

http://instantsingularity3.blogspot.it

and

http://instantsingularity1.blogspot.it

nameta9 wrote:Why most of the USA, EU and JAPAN are destined to low to zero or negative economic growth for many years in the future no matter what structurally, no matter what economical policies they choose (either left or right no difference), Anything any government does, any politics either right or left, Democratic or Republican won't change any of these deep large scale structural effects killing any future economic growth for years:

1) Technology kills more jobs than creates;

2) Hundreds of millions of new workers worldwide available now, China, India, Indonesia, etc;

3) Saturated markets, the west has bought all it needs, it has already way too much stuff;

4) Resources are strained, Oil is running out, agriculture strained, etc.

5) No new big technology novelties that can create many jobs;

6) Population is higher and higher, too many people for too little wealth;

7) Green ideology and evironmentalists kill developments and possible growth (against, skyscrapers, high speed trains, etc.);

8 ) Environment is strained, pollution and such;

9) Much older population, too old to work, old people not good enough for technology;

10) Accumulation of debts, too many pensions to pay, etc.;

11) Competition kills a lot of jobs in a lot of places, like Germany is the winner take all in cars, Spain and Greece can't build their own BMWs or Mercedes models, they are not good enough or smart enough or "work hard" enough whatever;

12) The west killed unions and worker protection because it thinks that that is bad for the economy, but it mostly just makes the rich richer;

13) The financial and fluff side of the economy dominates and hence makes the rich richer and takes money away from all the middle class and poor, etc;




I forgot the two really HUGE reasons why Economic Growth will be very low for many years:

14) A HUGE INCREASE IN HOUSING COSTS AND PRICES, EITHER TO RENT OR BUY, ESPECIALLY OUTSIDE OF THE USA, LIKE IN EUROPE AND JAPAN (in their big cities especially, where all the cough, cough "Jobs" are) killing any possibility for an expansion of the middle class (the new potential middle class made up of young people who can no longer afford housing costs!) that would buy things and furniture and such but can't since they have to pay such huge prices for rents or mortgages, so they decide that it is better to live in Mom's basement, etc. And in fact we need a huge Deflation of Housing Costs and Prices in New York City, Rome, Paris, Tokyo, London, etc. a 3 bedroom house in the center of these cities should cost no more than 50,000 dollars or no more than 200 dollars a month to rent, END OF STORY. Will this ever happen ? NO WAY, JOSE', well then kiss your imaginary "GROWTH", "Sustainable Growth", "Economic growth" and all other BS, and the possibility to pay back the huge debts in the USA, EU and JAPAN goodbye forever. Real Estate must Crash Baby Crash, like a wild dying PIG! Oh, I forgot, the fake, imaginary value of real estate is what backs up the banks worldwide pretending to be hugely richer than what they are, what c*cks...

15) Huge increase in Health Care costs and Education costs (especially in the USA), since the only way to make money is to sqeeze money out of people by making them pay basic needs a higher and higher price (exactly those 3 needs that are the basics: houses, health care and cough, cough "Education" since without education "no one hires you" according to traditional monopolistic old and static societies that are decaying and dying).

Is there any Political Party or Political Program in the USA, EU or JAPAN that can change any of this ? NO WAY, JOSE'!


Technology ?

We got really spoiled in the last 200 years or so. We discovered everything and applied everything (or at least a good 90 % of what is still to be discovered and applied, etc.), we discovered and learned how to apply ELECTRICITY, then STEAM ENGINES, THEN CARS, THEN PLANES AND JETS AND ROCKETS AND COMPUTERS AND TV and so forth, etc. And now we are essentially at the end of the "Novelty Era", there is very little left to discover and apply, we are just optimizing and changing form factors and just making believe that we are reinventing most of the things that have already been invented over and over again: Any new Passenger Jet Plane going faster than Sound ? NO. Any new Flying Cars ? NO. Any new fangled battery substituting Oil ? NO. Any new Planet Exploration ? NO. Any new Fusion Energy Power ? NO. Any new Real Artificial Intelligence (that isn't just the same old bad voice recognition idiocy ) ? NO, and so on so forth forever. We just make gadgets that do the same old things over and over again and sell them as new and revolutionary, like smart phones with digital cameras in them (the camera is an old invention, been there, done that) or putting all of the computer power of a PC in a small gadget, etc. And by doing this we are simply sponging off the Moore's Law that says you can keep on creating transistors in a smaller space, but even in this realm we are at the end of the line, a few more years and the Moore's Law game is over too.

So we expect the future to be like the past, but it won't be so, it just can't happen anymore, that short era is over, now we have to deal with ourselves and our political systems that hugely suck and the debts and the betrayed expectations of a future that never came to be.

Of course we could do a lot more, like Free Salaries to All, Cheap Rents, Trillions of Skyscrapers, trillions of Rockets to Mars and especially change the design and functioning and architecture of our Man Brain, of our Mind to become a better machine, a more progressive machine that goes towards the future and wants the future: but pepole are too Stone Age Apes to want to do this, and they love nature (which should be despised and destroyed in order to create space for the new Machine Men that will come, etc.), so suck it up, we will simply decay, stagnate and go back to the Stone Ages. AMEN.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:06 am

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

Klein 4:34

"More colloquially, they want to change things without really changing things. Too bad that defies logic. That's why they invoke "Deus ex machina" AKA technology. For something to work that defies logic, you need a miracle. No problem. Technology will provide that. This from supposedly mature adults. God help us."

Also, hoping for "miracles", they use other abstract terms, imaginary concepts, words and ideas that are impossible to pinpoint down, to define, to understand concretely what the hell they are all talking about, etc.: like INNOVATION, TRAINING, EDUCATION, COMPETITION, GROWTH (in all of its very vague and foggy permutations, such as "Economic Growth", "Sustainable Growth", "Development"), GREEN TECHNOLOGY and so on and so forth, with vague, foggy, undefined (because you can always switch what you really mean at the last second and keep on confusing everyone with such deep and scientific concepts all the economists and politicians and sociologist always talk about and especially you can always connect any cause and effect by defining and using abstract words and concepts like "Less Taxes Creates More Jobs" (and very generalized and global concepts, so global that they are essentially undefined, like "Taxes" (which and for who ?) and "Jobs" (which jobs ? in what sectors ? etc.) and such) and intractable concepts and goals).

The bottom line is that they all create abstract words that don't really mean anything, to then define an imaginary "cause and effect" that is really hiding a subtle agenda a given part of society wants to pass: case in point, all the talk about "cutting welfare" in the EU so that the Southern European countries can "Grow", changing their "Labor Laws" so that they can hire and fire easily and so forth and so on without ever telling what the true reason for the EU crisis really is and namely:

SPAIN HAD A HUGE HOUSING BUBBLE, THEY HIKED UP THE PRICES OF THEIR HOMES AND BUILT LIKE CRAZY AND EVERYONE BOUGHT THESE HOMES BY MAKING HUGE DEBTS ALL THINKING THAT THEY HAD BECOME RICH, THAT OWNING HOMES WAS THE PATH TO NEVER ENDING WEALTH FOR ALL. NOW IT IS PAYBACK TIME, AN ECONOMY BUILT ON HIGH HOME PRICES CAN ONLY GO SO FAR, NOW THEY HAVE HIGH HOME PRICES, MILLIONS OF EMPTY HOMES AND NO JOBS. WHAT C*CKS, AND NOW SPAIN WANTS MONEY FROM OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO HIDE THE FACT THAT SPONGING OFF HOME PRICES AND VALUES WASN'T WRONG AFTER ALL (in other words, they don't want to admit that they hiked their property prices way higher than what their economy could afford). THIS SAME MECHANISM OCCURRED IN THE GOOD OLD USA, HIKE HOME PRICES, SELL THEM TO ALL THROUGH DEBTS (SUBPRIME LOANS) AND CRASH THE ECONOMY, ETC. THIS SAME MECHANISM CRASHED THE JAPANESE ECONOMY IN THE 90S AND THEY ARE STILL PAYING FOR IT. THIS SAME MECHANISM IS STILL OPERATING IN MOST OF THE WORLD, IRELAND, LONDON, MOSCOW, SAO PAOLO, ETC. THIS IS CALLED "INFLATION", HUGE "INFLATION" BUT NO ONE NOTICES IT, BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY ARE GETTING RICH BY HAVING HIGH HOME VALUES (and in fact the origin of this mechanism is the 1970s inflation, inflating home prices, but never making the prices go back down again, especially outside of the USA where there is still some feedback mechanism to calm home prices).

WHEN ON EARTH WILL PEOPLE LET THE HOME PRICES CRASH, BABY CRASH, KILL HOME PRICES AND RENTS ? THE REAL ORIGIN OF ALL OF THE ECONOMIC TURMOIL OF THE LAST YEARS IS HUGE HOME PRICES, INFLATED HOME PRICES AND RENTS AND BANKS LENDING TO CLOWNS WHO THOUGHT THAT HOME PRICES BEING HIGH MADE THEM RICH. NOW, ITALY HAS THE WORST HOME PRICES BUBBLE OF ALL, ONLY THEY STILL DIDN'T NOTICE IT, THEY STILL THINK THEY ARE ALL "RICH": ITALY IS THE NEXT HOUSING BUBBLE TO CRASH, BUT ITALY IS TOO BIG TO FAIL, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.




AMEN.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:11 am

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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:18 am

And notice:

The only Economy that is doing well, namely Germany, never had this kind of Housing Bubble, actually it should be called HOME PRICES BUBBLE, since more than anything else, it is the constant and continuous hiking up of Home Prices, everyone trying to get a home and buy one, so that they are also "Getting Theirs", their "Imaginary Wealth", like a panic, like an imaginary Resource Scarcity myth, homes are running out, you will be left in the streets and such. And notice that this Home Prices Bubble occurs in static economies that are insecure (Spain, Italy, Greece, etc.), where a majority of the population are home owners (freezing all of their wealth and savings in buildings fooling themselves that the buildings will always have a future wealth), Germany has only 50 % home owners and 50 % renters, and in fact the renting part is what makes an economy "flexible" and such, let's hope that Germany too doesn't decide to have their own Home Prices Bubble.

And China is now constructing entire cities on this mythology of High Home Prices meaning that they think they are All getting Rich, etc. They are building like crazy, hiking up prices, and have millions of empty homes. Good Luck With That, China Also Is TOO BIG TO FAIL...

The moral flaw is that Increasing Housing Prices is money being used as a weapon against the poorer segments of society: the richer (or those having more money) hike up home prices in cities and use money as a weapon to beat up the poor in this manner.

The logical flaw is that of not recognizing that the Economy is a Process, nothing can be fixed forever, everything can be defaulted upon, the value of anything can always change according to how the forces play out and such. By hiking up home prices, people think they can establish fixed wealth in the future, when this is not the case, the Economy is a constant Process, ever changing, home prices are not a given and such. You can't freeze wealth in homes and any other thing...

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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:58 am

The Punishment Mode

The same set of processes that made the money accumulate and then be frozen into real estate, in other words, the same set of jobs, interactions, exchanges, social interactions and exchanges and especially the psychological environments (culture), the expectations, the desire to invest and make a profit, etc. that were operating and abundant and blooming in the Bubble Years, or Boom Years, (or mostly probably the Inflation Years, or better still the Home Prices Inflation Years) are no longer operating or are operating at much reduced levels, can no longer be activated, the jobs have changed, a lot of work is no longer necessary, or the jobs have been offshored or automated or whatever.

So, just like a diode can conduct current in only one direction and not the other, just like a Cash to Property Converter that crystallizes the Money into Property Values, but you can't make it go backwards anymore, you can't convert the Property Values to Cash anymore because that would mean you can extract money from real estate and activate processes with it, exchange processes, but this is no longer possible, you can't create jobs anymore, you can't convert Home Prices and Values into a Process and reverse the set of events that froze the money into Real Estate in the first place, you essentially get stuck, you get stuck with High Property Values and Prices and No Jobs (and millions of empty homes in Spain and the USA).

The only real solution is to make the property values Crash, Baby Crash hugely worldwide, all over the place, kill those Home Prices, a 3 bedroom home in the middle of Manhattan or Los Angeles, or Tokyo or Paris or Rome, etc. should not be valued at more than 50,000 dollars or 200 dollars a month rent. In this way, there may be a chance to activate some exchange processes again, to create some jobs again, etc.

But everyone is in Punishment Mode, everyone blaming everyone else of why the economy sucks, everyone wanting to punish everyone else by calling them lazy, firing them, they don't "Work Hard Enough" hence they don't deserve cash anymore, they don't "Innovate Enough" and so forth: exactly when a society goes in Punishment Mode, and gets stingy, and no longer wants to pay out Free Salaries, Huge Welfare, give out cash for free, but wants People to "Deserve It" is exactly when it becomes poorer and poorer since eveyone doesn't trust or value anyone else anymore, everyone is an enemy of everyone else who "Doesn't Deserve Anything" since they are all freeloaders and don't want to "Work Hard Enough" and so on.

But the 20th century west got rich exactly by being less stingy, less demanding of others, less fixed on this Punishment Mode, on the Myth of "Hard Work"(which is mostly an artistic, aesthetical choice, the boss wants to see you "Work Hard" and suffer (and creates so many useless tasks in order to make people Work Hard at essentially nothing but wasting resources, mostly working hard at selling fluff to other people and fighting other people, the interaction and conflicts and exhanges with other people and their opposition to your will power is what work essentially consists of today in the crappy "Services Economy") etc.) so that you deserve your money when this is all useless and meaningless and just a show, especially when our present economic system has absolutely nothing at all to do with work anymore, it is mostly an Automatic System with huge economies of scale, a Technological Economy that needs work like a hole in the head and needs more than anything else consumption and people buying like crazy, buy baby buy. A Technological Economy creates Free Wealth by the boatloads and can easily give it all out to everyone for free, etc. but we are stuck in the Stone Ages with our Ape Man Mentality.

Hence we need:

1) Free Salaries to all worldwide (800 dollars a month);

2) Cheap Rents to all worldwide (200 dollars a month for a 3 bedroom home in Manhattan or 50 dollars a month for the same in some suburb, etc.);

3) Trillions of huge large scale Public Private projects for the future, Space Exploration, Skyscrapers, High Speed trains, you name it.

But then again, when you know that all judgements, choices, all interactions and politics and all the possible ways to program a society as Man is the Infinitely Programmable Machine depends simply on what a dominating random Mind thinks is better, just the judgment of another person, and you know that the judgment and choices and preferences of any mind are worthless always, meaningless, arbitrary and have no value at all, everything is mostly vain and useless anyways..


THE APE MAN, THE 8 MEN, THE TOBOR....
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:54 pm

Distribute Wealth ?

So given that the Technological Economy has absolutely nothing at all to do with Work, Labor or any kind of Effort of any kind anymore, how on earth are you going to distribute the wealth that it automatically generates by the boatloads? Are you going to force fake and make believe and imaginary exchanges people will perform for a salary anyways ? Are you going to give the cash out for free to all ? are you going to LEND it out and make everyone have huge debts in the end (subprime loans to buy McMansions: another sign of Huge Excess Capacity and Free Wealth Generation the Technological Economy generates automatically, thousands of McMansions and such, thousands of high rises in China and such) all in the name of trying to desperately hide the truth that labor is no longer needed, is redundant, nay, that any human interaction and social exchanges at all are redundant, not needed and not necessary anymore, the system is mostly a huge Automatic Economy, generates wealth and goods by huge economy of scales, networks, huge flows of Energy and Oil, Electricity, Machines, Automated subsystems, automated and optimized production processes worldwide (and even if not automated, then run by very cheap and abundant labor in poorer countries, etc.) ? No ? Well then just be honest and give it all out for free, let it all hang out, give out free salaries and cheap rents to all worldwide and get it over with once and for all.

And you can easily see how unecessary work is in this economic system when all of a sudden companies layoff hundreds or thousands of people (for the bottom line): obviously all of those people and their labor was worthless and optional anyways, it wasn't really needed, otherwise you couldn't do that, on two feet. And how much time millions of people waste in offices, in meetings and interactions and fights and lawyers, all of the people goofing off in Education (and probably a good deal in health Care) etc. all the while the economists and politicians are always making believe that there are all of these deep "Structural Reasons" why the economy must be organized as it is, labor must be "flexible", globalization must allow outsourcing or whatever.

All of the talk about Innovation and always changing kinds of jobs every two years and so forth goes to show how not necessary and optional and all fun and games all of those "Innovations" and "New Jobs" really are, how they have nothing at all to do with the Economy at all, nothing at all to do with the Technological Economy generating free wealth and providing all of the basics to all. All of the new startups, IPADS, APPS, new jobs, are all about fun and games and fluff and make believe comic book jobs and work: things that are just cool artistically and aesthetically, it looks like real work, but the Technological Economy doesn't even notice, and needs all of those jobs like a hole in the head. It is all just a ritual, a make believe, no real necessity or needs behind it. The only need it satisfies is to make people think that they are necessary and important and that their labor counts: nothing further from the truth, all of their labor is totally irrelevant.

There are no structural invariants for a Technological Economy, people can simply get a free salary, it would actually make the economies way richer by wasting less energy to go back and forth to work and printing loads of paper that is useless anyways. All of that imaginary work and activity just tries to hide the fact that it is a cultural and social ritual, a make believe that our culture imposes, just because, for no real reason at all, because that is how the powers that be programmed it to be (or the casual forces of society programmed people and the people let themselves be programmed by), not because LABOR or WORK is a real necessity for the economy to work anymore, to feed people or to produce goods: and in fact notice that the parking lots of malls are always full no matter how high the unemployement rate or how bad the economy is doing etc., the goods flow always, people travel and the airports and highways are crowded.

The limitations are all cultural, psychological and are all based on an artistic - aesthetic, arbitrary, random choice of wanting people to "work" 8 hours a day and pretending that it is needed: it is hard to find a substitute to this ritual because all of the values, ideas, all of the distribution of wealth must be performed through "work" or what passes for "work".

It was all true and necessary (work and labor was needed, factories needed the 8 hour a day labor, etc.) up until the mid 20th century, then the Huge Productive Power of the Technological Economy started to show its force, just look at how much production went into World War Two (All government paid, but in that case, welfare was ok, the government paying for it all was ok, etc.), Germany alone produced enough to battle half of the world for almost five years, then the productive power of the USA kicked in, etc. By the 1950s we were essentially already living in an Automatic - Free Wealth Generating Technological Economy and this is even before the power of the Microprocessor, Computers and the Internet kicked in and with a much more primitive technology compared to today.

The Hippies knew this, that is what the counterculture was all about, they knew that humanity was essentially free from labor by the use of Technology and expected the Utopia to kick in: it didn't happen, the Right Wing Conservatives won and kept everyone brainwashed about all of these limitations and the need for Work and all of the Resource Scarcity Myths, etc.

Oh, I forgot, Man is the fight, the conflict, without the fight and conflict and everyone against everyone else, and everyone wanting to be the boss of everyone else and impose "Hard Work" on the loser, Man is undefined, gets lost, cannot measure himself against others. He needs inequality always, the "I am Better Than You" (or especially I "Deserve" more than you (but who judges who deserves ? another arbitrary clown, that's who)), the contrasts, the conflicts, the fights, complexity, and problems, the problems and the freeloaders and lazy turds to blame why the "Economy Is Not Doing Well" etc.

Well, the Economy Is Not Doing Well because there are no long any circuits to distribute the wealth it generates automatically unless you finally decide to give out free salaries and cheap rents to all worldwide. AMEN.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:54 pm

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

Obsolete ?

Like when they say that you can't still be a programmer at 40 years old, after 10 years as a technician (engineer, whatever) you have to change gear and go into "management", try to be a King Boss, etc. And why is this ? Why are engineers and technicians Obsolete after 10 years of "Hard Work" and experience ? because if they were good, with good college grades and serious workers, after 10 years in a technical field they would have become so good (but they all make sure this doesn't happen by always changing the technology and making it hard to master anything by complexity and ever changing confusionary items, etc.) as to render useless and vain hiring any other new technicians and kids from college since they would have become "so productive" and so expert so as to be able do the work of 10 young kids without experience, you wouldn't need the kids, the technicians already working would be more than enough. And in fact this is exactly the case, after a few years of experience the technicians become too good to remain "doing the same things", etc. But this contradicts the dictates of "productivity", but no one notices it, everyone accepts all the quirky and random rules of the games the corporations and business culture imposes on everyone, but subtly, imposed according to a very clear and hidden agenda: hose the old guy, hire the new kids, etc. That is why they are always changing programming languages, always inventing new techiques to do the same old things, etc.

But since we have a huge Excess Capacity in terms of people and skills, we have way too many possible workers and even good workers to know what to do with them since the Technological Economy needs more workers and more technicians and more "Scientists and Engineers" like a hole in the head, they subtly brainwash everyone that after 10 years the engineer is Obsolete, no longer good enough, not fresh enough or flexible enough to learn all the "new technologies" and all other such BS.

The truth is, they have to create room for the young and hose the old turds that are no longer functional to corporations and their ritual, their little club like mentality where the rules of the games are totally arbitrary, totally disconnected from any real needs or reasons simply because the work is unecessary, there is no real work left for the "experienced technicians" to do, now we need a new crop of kids ready to slug it out in competition and see who wins the career game, the workforce is always overbloated from the start, there are way too many people for way too little real work left to do: the only thing left is to make them all play office power games, struggle and especially struggle against other people according to all imaginary interdictions and roadblocks and fight other people's will power as that is what "Advanced Management" must do in a Technological Economy that doesn't need people at all anymore, etc.

Of course they can all become very creative and create all kinds of problems and interdictions and difficulty to anyone by creating ever changing rules of the games, ever changing documents that must be produced, ever changing complex and vague procedures, etc. you get the idea.

And always change everything, hire and fire, restructure, much ado about nothing, a lot of activity that doesn't really produce or change anything anymore.

But they always say they need more "Scientists and Engineers", as if to make fun of all of those who have chosen this path and have seen how they all become Obsolete and useless turds for some mysterious reason. Of course there is no truth behind 99 % of what they all say, they are all slogans and sound bytes and crap, etc.

We would need many more technicians and there would be many more real jobs if they (who is they ?) finally decided to invest in Trillions of New Skyscrapers, Trillions of Rockets to Mars, Trillions of 1966 Oldsmobile Ninety Eights, Trillions of everything, not caring about nature or Peak Oil anymore since we can split the Sun and grab all the energy etc.

We need what I have been saying for years: Free Salaries, Cheap Rents, Huge Public Private Projects for the Future...

SHPAK A LA, SHLA G A LAG BARBIE CONFUSED, SUBARU SUBARU SUBRARU RU RU NO DICE JOB, JOBSTER LOBSTER, NO DICE JOSE' , SHLAGALAG A SHPAK, APESTER THE JOBSTER LOBSTER....
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:47 pm

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

"PLUS you acquire very hard-to-replace expertise after years on the job that, if given out to some young college grad - as under your dizball scenario - will just fuck up a well-running system and cost the company tens of thousands to several million dollars, depending on the application involved."

Sometimes they give it out to some young grad exactly to break a system and buy another, exactly to create a new money flow, or for political reasons or many, many other obscure reasons, especially in financial affairs: never underestimate the oblique and hidden agenda of so many actors in corporations, often, nothing is at it appears: and don't believe in the brainwashing they gave you too much either.

Anyways, in your particular company, or in a given group of corporations you may be right, but there are many other situations, you simply can't generalize.

But I generalize, but don't think that I am always right... I love to be wrong and in contradiction.

And I am the best philosopher and thinker of all time, I am the best genius of all time, bar none, read all of my posts on www.ilovephilosophy.com, you will see that I am number ONE.


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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby Amorphos » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:40 pm

^^ wow, to many posts, let someone else speak, and engage in dialogue rather then present a monologue ~ its how these things work :P
no-one is number 1, though I think am too :lol: dont we all!

10) Accumulation of debts, too many pensions to pay, etc.;


In Britain we privatised social housing, prior to that houses built many years ago had been bought and paid for, hence no cost ~ that’s how socialism could work. Rents were paid basically from one governmental hand into another = 0 cost effectively.

The unemployed and pensioners could be given food at base cost, we all know that retailers take an average of 70% profit on the cost of products.

Basically we could give them all extremely cheap foods and accommodation, removing a vast amount of the costs ~ but the capitalists don’t want that [?].

Not to mention 167 bil of EU quangos, I expect Americans have similar?

If there were such a problem why aren’t they dealing with it in obvious ways?
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:22 pm

Banks ?

The banks simply don't want to take the loss, they don't want to admit that Houses, Real Estate, the loans made to insecure clowns (who know that work and labor is meaningless today since a Technological Economy has rendered work and labor not only irrelevant and not needed, but a liability, not even an asset, a loss, a pain in the a*s, as hiring people is a pain in the a*s since they are all useless (freeloaders?) turds, they are worth nothing and cost way more than what they can ever produce, etc.) who thought that buying property (and flipping it, and hiking up the value and prices of homes evey year for years on end thinking that they were all getting rich, they were creating free wealth out of thin air ?) was a good investment, was the right thing to do, protected your hard earned money, etc. exactly when this was no longer possible and true because the economy will never be able to create all the high paying jobs to which the high values of homes should correspond. How are you going to pay back a 20 year mortgage when they fired you, or outsourced you or "cut waste" and gave you less money, etc. when they are killing jobs since they don't want to give out Free Salaries, the only true way to distribute weath since jobs are irrelevant and no longer needed ?

How can 20 year mortgages be backed up and guaranteed when the economy can't even guarantee a few weeks of a steady job since companies are always hiring and firing and restructuring and changing everything because they don't know how to make a profit anymore and blame the workers who are always too lazy or not trained enough or not innovative enough, etc.

So they don't want to take the losses, they don't want to accept that the 100,000 or 200,000 dollar loan given to some clown will never be paid back again because the money wasn't in the Economy in the first place, the home values are way out of line to what the real economy can ever generate, the illusion of all of this wealth that was supposed to pay for inflated home prices in the future through "high paying jobs" that never came, that were never possible from the start since a Technological Economy not only eliminates all high paid jobs always, it eliminates any jobs at all completely as a Technological Economy no longer has anything at all to do with Work and Labor and Jobs at all. So how are you going to pay for the inflated homes ? How is that imaginary wealth you though was in the economy going to come out anymore ?

The wealth in Spain and the USA doesn't correspond to the high home prices, the imaginary wealth that is assigned to the high home prices doesn't correspond to any possible reality of the underlying economy, the economy can never again generate such huge wealth through jobs or any kinds of exchanges at all, this is and was one worldwide huge Home Prices and Property Prices and Values inflation that took place all across the world, starting from JAPAN and ending in Italy, all super inflated home prices that don't correspond to the reality of any of the underlying economies.

So the banks simply, and society as a whole simply can't take the loss, can't accept the loss, be honest once and for all and declare that home prices are worth not even 10 % of what they though they were, a 3 bedroom home in the midddle of Los Angeles or Manhattan or Tokyo or London or Rome, etc. should not be worth ever more than 50,000 dollars bar none and the rent not more than 200 dollars a month. And the banks should just write off all the imaginary wealth and money they thought they had, the economies worldwide thought that was in the system as a fariy tale, as a mistake, as a bad bet, simply as money that was never there in the first place.

China and Canada are still hiking up home prices, they think they are getting rich they think that there economy can generate the equivalent jobs and exchanges, what are they crazy or what ?

The USA has 100 million home valued at about 150,000 dollars each and you really think that the USA contains 100 million jobs paid 15,000 dollars a year for 10 years in terms of potential exchanges and jobs that need to be done ? In Italy and JAPAN the situation is even worse, they all have this huge illusion that their economies are way way richer than what they really are because all of the assets and wealth are based on property prices and values which are totally fake and false and inflated way beyond anything that can possibly correspond to their real economy.

And then an economy doesn't ever need so many jobs, after you build some cars and homes and furnish some services (a few hundred thousands jobs at most), an economy doesn't need to do anything else, the idea of all of these millions of jobs needed to be done is the greatest illusion of all.

Now go on Europe give the spanish banks billions of dollars, keep on fooling yourselves..



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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:30 pm

interesting.

The USA has 100 million home valued at about 150,000 dollars each and you really think that the USA contains 100 million jobs paid 15,000 dollars a year for 10 years


Um no, that wouldn’t make sense at all. I agree about the pricing hike, it seems the capitalists just think that one can allow ‘the markets’ to inflate by their own mystical properties. If people can afford ‘x’ then the markets [that term probably meant something in Victorian times] are at ‘x’.

So are you saying that in the main the credit crunch was invisible money becoming real, then realising it largely didn’t exist?
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:44 pm

Amorphos wrote:interesting.

The USA has 100 million home valued at about 150,000 dollars each and you really think that the USA contains 100 million jobs paid 15,000 dollars a year for 10 years


Um no, that wouldn’t make sense at all. I agree about the pricing hike, it seems the capitalists just think that one can allow ‘the markets’ to inflate by their own mystical properties. If people can afford ‘x’ then the markets [that term probably meant something in Victorian times] are at ‘x’.

So are you saying that in the main the credit crunch was invisible money becoming real, then realising it largely didn’t exist?



Everyone jumped on the bandwagon, everyone loved that their house price kept on going higher and higher for decades. Look at London, totally insane prices, look at New York City or Los Angeles, Madrid and especially a place like Rome (no industry, no offices, no job market at all, a truly turd of an economy) which has absolutely no logical reason to have sky high home prices, 300,000 dollars for a 2 bedroom home, etc.

The banks pumped the prices, the people loved it and bought into it, everyone was and still mostly is brainwashed that their home is worth so much, when in all truth, homes are the value a current economic system can sustain according to the current play of forces operating, the economy is a process, is not a static accumulation of Home Values outside of any logic, you can't freeze value into a static box that is a home, etc.

And especially the rich that pumped up the markets in center cities worldwide, the rich buying homes in London and hiking up the prices, kill them, beat them up, punch them in the face, they are crushing all the poorer people who can't compete with such prices, they are making the prices go up all across the city and region, same in Tokyo and NYC and Madrid, etc. etc.

The damage done to people who are simply a little less well off is huge with this housing price hiking that has been going on for decades all over the world, but they all pretend it is real wealth, well wealth backed up by exactly what ? The value of the owners or their capability of providing work, their talent, their capacity to Innovate or what ? The value of the owners are a big fat ZERO, they are stealing money from the poorer classes, they are using property as a weapon against the weaker class just because, for no reason at all, because they are to hate with all of your guts, hate the system we need Free Salaries and Cheap Rents!

The money doesn't exist but makes believe it exists in High Property Prices and the banks backing up their capital and worth with imaginary Property Prices they use as collateral, as assets, as their "capitalization", that have nothing at all to do with the real capability of the present economies worldwide.

I want the prices to crash like crazy worldwide.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby Amorphos » Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:50 pm

the rich buying homes in London and hiking up the prices, kill them, beat them up, punch them in the face,


Haha, like it. :wink:

Well the banks perspective on property is that they get to finance the same product over and over again, so I can see why they see it all as free money. Then naturally the more wealthy people are often landlords, they get to rent the same product forever ~ and the rents go up according to house prices irrespective of weather or not they were paid for decades ago.

For me we don’t all get given free money because there are limits, and there are also a minority who wants to distribute it mostly their own way.
Or at least they don’t want everyone to have lives like them; who would service them? Make their cars, build their palaces, dig the coal, farm the land, if there wasn’t a perceived need!

oh and we are all doing that a lot cheaper now eh.

Yea vast inflation would equalise things, but they have mechanisms for that too. They are the chaps who decide what money is worth and what the inflation rates are.
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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:00 pm

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

STATUS

You can also say that the High Property Prices and Values represent the Excess Capacity, the Free Wealth the Technological Economy generates automatically, the discharging of the free wealth through financial systems, and what better system than hiking up the costs of the basics, Homes, Education and Health Care ? That extra price is the extra Free Wealth crystallized as inflation, as value not corresponding to work, as there is no possible corresponding, real hard work, no real physical and necessary work that could ever correspond to those high prices, so the prices reflect the free wealth the system generates automatically and freezes it into property prices, etc.

Since if you say the property prices don't have to correspond to potential labor, therefore they are free to grow independently, than you are then actually saying the truth, the economic system no longer depends or has anything at all to do with real work anymore (all the real work is being performed by technology, systems, electricity, system wide networks, flow of goods with trucks, transportation, airports, energy, etc.), now the work is all imaginary, exchange of power games, status games between people, information workers exchanging bits that are all random, variable and all have any arbitrary value any arbitrary other mind decides what the value is: and the very fact that the economy has freed up so many people to simply execute this huge comic book and fairy tale kind of work is exactly because real work, real hard labor, real physical work is no longer needed at all, is obsolete, the amount of this kind of labor needed keeps on decreasing, manufacturing is very easy, a dime a dozen, can be done by machines and third world turds working for 100 dollars a month, etc. now it is all fluff and games, all facebook crap, all IPAD APPS and games, all status and random evaluations of all, now it is all subjective, no longer tied into real necessities, it is all a subjective evaluation game, all mind games, and this gives the powerful, those that can decide an infinite amount of power on all the rest since the rest are no longer needed, now you can invent all the fake jobs you want, now the power of individual will power on the economy, the subjectivities has reached infinite heights, exactly when a Technologial Economy should have freed us all from labor, it put us into an even bigger prison by locking up all up into the free will of some turd deciding what to do with millions of useless people, etc. A psychological prison depending on the other will power, on its judgments, on its subjective evaluation of you and whether you shall be fired or not, etc.

So don't believe all the economists when they talk about all of these imaginary "Structural" reasons the economy must be this or that, or this reform must be made, or you need less taxes (or more taxes ?) or this or that, or Competition or Innovation, etc. It is all a fairy tale, a make believe comic book world, the economy has nothing at all to do with work, people or labor at all, it is an automatic system that generates free wealth for all and exactly because there are no longer any structural invariants that can influence it, all the politicians and economists and such can invent any cause and effect they want and try to pass any hidden agenda they want, since there are no causes and effects anymore, you just need to brainwash everyone that your cause and effect and agenda is the right one, etc.


From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

"The Danish workforce consists of 3 million people, of which 1 million are public employees."

Frist what country or system is your model then ? All models suck anyways in the end.

So then it is taken for granted that the one million public workers are useless, freeloaders, getting a free salary, so then it is taken for granted that the system can create millions of fake jobs automatically and still be a very rich country, so it is taken for granted that real work is no longer needed, the myth of the private economy generating real jobs is a fairy tale, the real jobs are idiotic devices like Apple devices that only serve the purpose of fun and games and produce comic book work, etc.

Anyways, if Denmark is not good, then what country is ? Every country has its highs and lows, every place has some good and bad, etc. It all depends where you stand in the economy and if you have advantages in that country and system compared to any other: if you are a Silicon Valley boss in San Francisco, then you are a winner, but if you are some mexican immigrant there than you are the loser, so each will paint a different picture of the same place, as all places are mostly the same crap anyways.

And most of all, THERE ARE NO SOLUTIONS TO ANY PROBLEMS, END OF STORY. THERE ARE NO SOLUTIONS, THERE ARE NO SOLUTIONS TO ANYTHING ANYMORE, THERE ARE NO SOLUTIONS, NO SYSTEM WORKS, ALL SYSTEMS SUCK AND ARE SICK, ALL IDEAS SUCK AND ARE WRONG, ETC.

But who said the world shouldn't be like this ? This is the natural state of affairs of all anyways...

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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:18 am

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/06/rocky- ... -high.html

7:07

Same Old Problems Forever...

"But the point is that the US government wastes so much of their tax revenues on nonsense things like starting wars in Iraq, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and giving away trillions of OUR money to corrupt banks. I could go on and on. With just a portion of that money services could be increased dramatically AND we could have tax cuts."


The Law of Conservation of Conflict, or the Law of Conservation of Poverty, or the Law of Conservation of Status or Inequality, or the Law of Conservation of Misery, etc. Even if you gave trillions to everyone, and the economic system could readily do this, people would just reorganize themselves along the same old divisions and boundaries of have and have nots, of boss and slave etc. They would always find a way to outsmart any system that tries to give at least the basics to all, they would create inequalities of power or cut off some basics to some portion of the population, just because, because Man and his Man Brain defines himself according to how he measures up with his similar and in order to measure up always higher and win the confrontation he always must create some unmet need for someone else to then exploit it and create the same old political - power and economic fights that have always been going on and will always be going on as long as we remain with this old clunker of a Man Brain: this old clunker on the top of our body must be changed, reprogrammed, all of these ancient Stone Age circuits creating all of these conflicts and power struggles and fights and winners and losers and bosses etc. must be reconfigured, must be erased, a new Man Brain must be designed, a new Man, with a new Contraption on the top of his body doing completely new things and no longer measuring himself against other Man Brains in order to win the game and confrontation, etc.

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Re: Economic Growth will be low for Many Years...

Postby nameta9 » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:47 pm

No Common World

I see the world as A and want A1, you see the world as B and want B1, so what is the world then "Objectively Speaking" ? What is the correct politics or the correct thing to desire or the correct way the "World Should Be" or how it should "Be Seen" ? None, there isn't any, it is all a simple tug of war, a fight amongst contrasting, but equally arbitrary and Subjective views and Politics of an imaginary Common World which doesn't exist at all, since the world is only a stage where contrasting will powers execute their fight and conflict according to contrasting "Imaginary Mental Models" of how the world should be according to any number of ideologies, designs, desires, subjective gains, simple egostical and selfish gains, or as opposed general "common good" gains, or gains according to what is right for everyone, when everyone is different and contrasting, nay, both contrasting and collabortaing in a complex, tangled web of incoherencies, etc. It is all Subjective and only Subjectivity exists.

Hence, there is no Common World, only Points of Views, only Points of Conflict, only Points of Interactions, of one shot interactions and events that are trying to extend more than a simple one shot point like event and world that has no extension, no generality, no common substrate, no reference system (not even any extension or Space and Time essentially).

Hence,if there is No Common World, but only a never ending set of different views and models and politics and social models and a desires and goals, etc. then any world can be, any world at all is just as good, anything at all, since nothing is based on a true Objective and universally valid truth and point of view.

Hence, many different worlds all constructed and designed through many different new Mental Circuits inventing and creating new worlds is just as good, any new Man Brain designed in any number of trillions of different ways is just as good, etc.

And then all the Economic and Political and Social debates are all based on Statistics, numbers, how many people are making how much money in a certain social system, or how long is the life expectancy to judge health care systems or how much unemployment is in a country to judge the country's economic system and policies and so forth and so on. But these numbers are so abstract, they are just counting a certain property of a population and assigning it a number and judging the corresponding system and property accordingly, according to how the numbers should subjectively be (either high or low, but assigned arbitrarly as better according to some arbitrary mental model: case in point, a rich society with many unemployed may be better so high unemployment may be better and mean a more efficient economic system, since it can generate the same amount of wealth with fewer people working, etc. or a huge amount of consumption may be better as that signals ever more wealth as opposed to the green environmentalists who use these statistics as opposed to economists, etc.).
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