AnitaS wrote:Pav, I wanted to thank you for your well thought-out response to me earlier. Without knowing anything about Ohio welfare laws, I certainly can’t and wouldn’t try to counter any of your specifics. In fact I would agree with you whole-heartedly on pretty much every one of your points.
Thank you for both your reasonableness and for engaging me in this discussion.Minnesota Time
I disagree with that, you have to crunch the numbers in terms of what sort of assistance the women receive, when single, in addition to the child support that the guy is paying compared to the standard of living she had when she was married to him.
For instance, if a guy were to be the only one working in his family and he made $30,000 where the wife was unemployed, and they got divorced where she continued to be unemployed:
1.) The kids had free healthcare in any case. MinnesotaCare will assist both parents when both parents are married with significantly reduced premiums. The Mother will keep her MinnesotaCare after the divorce, but...uh-oh...Daddy loses MinnesotaCare by $48. Married, they may not have more than $20,000 in total assets, single, he may not have more than $10,000 in assets.http://www.house.leg.state.mn.us/hrd/pubs/mncare.pdf
2.) The guy will pay $795/month in child support.http://childsupportcalculator.dhs.state ... lator.aspx
3.) The Mother will no longer pay anything for rent if she gets on income-based housing because no income = no rent. She will also pay nothing for utilities.
4.) Filling in the proper information here:http://www.snap-step1.usda.gov/fns/index.jsp
It would seem that the Mother will get $325-$335/month in food stamps.
5.) The Mother (if she at least has a G.E.D.) will get free access to college education, but no bonus cash in Minnesota. She is expected to come up with 46.3%, but the amount she is not expected to come up with will more than cover tuition/fees/books, just no extra money.
6.) The childcare costs will undoubtedly be covered for college:http://www.getreadyforcollege.org/gPg.c ... fa0f2a72f9
I'm going to use 60% of my personal housing expenses to determine this, just for the Hell of it to see how she does:
1.) $795 child support * 12 = $9,540
2.) $330 foodstamps * 12 = $3,960
3.) My mortgage payment is $509, so let's say that reasonable rent would be $305.4...12 = $3,664.80...and that's actually impossibly low.
4.) My Electric/Heating bill budget amount is $348 so let's say $208.80 * 12 = $2,505.60
5.) My cell phone bill (they get free cell phones with limited minutes) is $60/month, so $36 * 12 = $432
6.) My trash bill is $18/month, so $10.80 * 12 = $129.60
7.) I've also filled out the form, just to see, and such an individual would (still) qualify for $123/month cash assistance. (It's Federal) $123 * 12 = $1,476
***Ultimately, you have a value income...that I've intentionally low-balled of $21,708 for not working while the ex-husband will see $15,084 of his money after child support and taxes are taken out of the equation. Except, she doesn't have to do anything for that and gets to dictate when or not he gets to see his kids. In the meantime, he's going to pay numbers for his cost-of-living closer to what I pay than what I've intentionally low-balled for the ex-wife.
Again, there is NOWHERE for rent with three bedrooms for $305.40, in fact, one of the reasons that I bought a house is because it is cheaper for me every month than renting actually was, so you can really add another $2,500 to her.
NOW, let's factor in these school benefits:
Okay, you pay $184.04/credit hour at Dakota Technical College:http://www.dctc.edu/future-students/pay ... /index.cfm
The single Mother will have to take at least 15 credit hours to be considered full-time, so $184.04 * 15 = $2,760.60
That's per semester as DCTC runs by semester, so the value on that is $8,281.80/year. (Three per year)
That brings the single Mother's value up to $21,708 + 8,281.80 = $29,989.80/year. Her value for going to college for 20 hours a week has now exceeded the husband's value further.
I am having trouble finding childcare costs anywhere, so I found some numbers for Dakota County. It looks like they get $6.32/hour for a school-age kid. There are now 35 academic weeks (or so), so you are looking at $6.32 * 35 * 20 = $4,424https://edocs.dhs.state.mn.us/lfserver/ ... -6441A-ENG
Her new value is $34,413.80/year. She is worth only $3,586.20 less per year than I am where I work 65 hours/week and SUPPORT a family of four and she does nothing except attends classes 20 hours/week. Furthermore, I also have taxes taken out and make student loan payments of $121/month. When it is all said and done, she's worth more than I am.
She is financially better off than she was with her husband. Her husband is FAR worse off financially. The value she has as a family of three exceeds the value that they had as a family of four. He works, she doesn't. Everything she has is Government-provided, nothing he has is Government-provided, and in fact, since he cannot claim the kids, he will have to pay Federal and State (Especially State) taxes that he will not get back...something he did not have to do before as far as Federal was concerned. In Minnesota, he still would not be refunded everything he paid in State tax as a family of four.
She's worth more than him annually sitting at home doing nothing (144%)! If she goes to college, she is worth 228% of what he takes home per year.
I don't think my wife will ever divorce me, but just in case, I am never moving to Minnesota...
I rest my case.
The only thing I would say is that, contrary to popular belief, being on the Left doesn’t mean you think money should be thrown indiscriminately at every problem. I consider myself very liberal, but I wouldn’t vote for giving anyone free tuition AND paying them cash on top of that just to attend college. I’m not sure how something like that ever got legislated.
I do believe that if we want to live in the best possible society, we have a responsibility for each other and we should help those that truly need help. And before someone chimes in and says “if you feel that strongly, then you can give your own money to charities,” I do give my own money to charities. I’m talking about at a societal level here.
You're absolutely right. Most people equate Socialism to Communism, or Socialism to a Welfare State. When I say I am a Socialist, people think I am mildly retarded, but they have no idea what Socialism is really supposed to consist of. Let there be no question that an individual MUST work in my system, unless he/she is married, then he/she has the option not to work provided the spouse works.
We ALL benefit from having a healthy, well-educated workforce and citizenry. I believe if we spent time and money on children from a very young age, we’d have to pay less once those children reach adulthood; less in healthcare, less in welfare, and less in the justice system. It’s not simply do-gooder altruism, although I do genuinely care about [most] people; it just makes good fiscal sense.
It does, but you really have to pick and choose your spots. For instance, did you know that Schwann's can now accept the foodstamp card in the State of Ohio!? It's a home-delivery food service with prices that are...less than reasonable for someone on foodstamps. Great food. I'll buy some of their ice cream and mixed vegetables when I am in a high-roller mood. Couple of times a year.
The problem is, there is no instant gratification with that policy, and it’s tough for any politician to win on a platform that doesn’t demonstrate immediate results.
Ain't that the truth.