American Welfare is Better

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Sun May 27, 2012 7:42 pm

American Welfare is Better

So they have larger houses in the USA, even made cheaply with wood and such, but they often have a basement, a garage, an attic, extra room, they have room, they have backyards and such and wide roads. So if you have a son or daughter or relative out of a job and without a house just put them in the garage and make a room for him, or put him in the basement or attic and such, and that will create less room and house problems: in Europe they don't have extra room in houses, they have small, tight, puny houses and tight roads, they don't have room enough etc. So they are poorer in this respect compared to the USA and therefore they have higher house prices, way higher than in the USA. And in fact the housing bubble in the USA hurts more because people have extra room they can use, the housing bubbles that popped in Spain or the UK (and that must still pop in Italy, but they forgot to pop it or is it that their owner class is never going to let it pop so as to create hugely artificially high prices for puny homes forever since no market forces work in that Failed Puny Cartoon Economy of Italy ?) didn't make the prices go down much: they should have crashed like crazy, they should have been cut all by 90 %, a 3 bedroom house in the center of London or Madrid or Rome should not cost more than 50,000 dollars, but since those economies don't operate by market forces, only by the strong ones making the prices and forcing them down everyone's throat, they will always be much poorer than the USA.

And in the USA you get food stamps to eat, so there: you get a room and can eat no matter what, in Europe you are not granted either structurally, it is a failed puny continent of greedy Right Wing Thugs.

But then you have the Health Care costs in the USA that compensate the free room and board of the USA described above, so as you see, the law of conservation of wealth is observed anyways across different systems, either you pay in one way or in another, and in the USA there are many more homeless than in the EU, another weird effect, but then again, the law of conservation of wealth or (pain and pleasure) compensates the puny homes in the EU with stronger family ties or something else, who knows...


Failed State ?

When a country is bankrupt and can't pay anymore, then all of their imports cost more, a lot more, there is very little exchange value left for the country: you would think that under those circumstances the prices of local goods should go way down to compensate how much the Failed State must pay for Computers or TVs or Energy and such, so the value of homes should go way, way down and so should local food and such. But for every force there is an equal and contrasting force operating, and since the number of economic exchanges is reduced in a failing and dying economy, there is a force that would make the price of homes go way, way up since those few exchanges that are still going on become the only chance to gain some cash and such. So what will it be ? Home prices going up or down in Failed States such as Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy ? Whatever, the entire "Science" of Economics is a failed endeavor, like the blind man that wins a chess game by guessing while the loser tries to figure it all out: there are no rules or objective reality, only random forces going any place.

And then,the very meaning of an economy "growing" and "healthy" is an economy with many exchanges, as many as possible, people exchanging a huge number of items and such, and that makes the economy "grow", but in order to have that, the prices must be low and everyone should have something that someone else thinks is valuable to exchange. But how on earth is that going to happen anymore, with jobs being automated out of existence and fewer and fewer real possible exchanges and such and debts to pay, so fewer exchanges and such ?

THE APE, SUBARU SUBARU SUBARU RU RU SUBARU SUBARU SUBARU RU RU JOBSTER LOBSTER APESTER, NO DICE JOB, NO DICE, NO DICE JOSE' SHPAK A LAK SHPAK A LAK, CONFUSED BARBIE...NO DICE, JOSE' CONFUSION, NO DICE JOB AND SUCH, BARBIE CONFUSED...

nameta9
Philosopher

Posts: 1516
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:42 am
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Sun May 27, 2012 7:56 pm

nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby SIATD v2 » Sun May 27, 2012 10:13 pm

nameta9 wrote:American Welfare is Better

So they have larger houses in the USA, even made cheaply with wood and such, but they often have a basement, a garage, an attic, extra room, they have room, they have backyards and such and wide roads. So if you have a son or daughter or relative out of a job and without a house just put them in the garage and make a room for him, or put him in the basement or attic and such, and that will create less room and house problems: in Europe they don't have extra room in houses, they have small, tight, puny houses and tight roads, they don't have room enough etc. So they are poorer in this respect compared to the USA and therefore they have higher house prices, way higher than in the USA. And in fact the housing bubble in the USA hurts more because people have extra room they can use, the housing bubbles that popped in Spain or the UK (and that must still pop in Italy, but they forgot to pop it or is it that their owner class is never going to let it pop so as to create hugely artificially high prices for puny homes forever since no market forces work in that Failed Puny Cartoon Economy of Italy ?) didn't make the prices go down much: they should have crashed like crazy, they should have been cut all by 90 %, a 3 bedroom house in the center of London or Madrid or Rome should not cost more than 50,000 dollars, but since those economies don't operate by market forces, only by the strong ones making the prices and forcing them down everyone's throat, they will always be much poorer than the USA.

And in the USA you get food stamps to eat, so there: you get a room and can eat no matter what, in Europe you are not granted either structurally, it is a failed puny continent of greedy Right Wing Thugs.


50,000 dollars? Can you buy a 3 bedroom house in central New York or LA or Chicago for that kind of money?

In this country you can get benefits that pay for a roof over your head and something to eat, though I don't know how it compares in monetary terms to what you can get in the US. Much of Europe, though not all of it, is the same. But you are allowed to move anywhere you want within the EU and claim their benefits. So if I wanted to go and live for a while off the German welfare system, which is pretty luxurious, I could. I find that as baffling as some of what you're saying.
It's like going to heaven and finding God smokin' crack!
Magsj wrote:I met a guy who abhorred all authority figures but he was lovely ergo.. the two can go together.
User avatar
SIATD v2
One Man Pussy Riot
 
Posts: 2415
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby lizbethrose » Mon May 28, 2012 5:24 am

Hi, nameta9, Glad to see you back! Were you in hospital or off building a sky-scraper? Just kidding, of course--sorta.

You said:

Whatever, the entire "Science" of Economics is a failed endeavor,


I agree. Adam Smith's theory of economics is a bust. I know what your answer is, I just don't think it's feasible. Can you come up with another? :)
"Be what you would seem to be - or, if you'd like it put more simply - never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise."
— Lewis Carroll
lizbethrose
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3551
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:55 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby The Golden Turd » Mon May 28, 2012 8:44 am

No- In America it's not too hard to find housing and food if your unemployed or homeless- you just drift out to the country side if the city is overran, like Elizabeth's town, and just bitch and moan long enough. In my old county in West Virginia, we had 17 homeless people.... each had their own house. They just choosed to be so- alcoholics or drug addiction, with a sweet mixture of either insanity or tardism(don't think any were practicing Cynics).

If you ever saw the TV show Patch Adams.... that was the free medical system in West Virginia, it's what I used as a kid until the Clinton Era when that stuff became less and less available given the government's attacks on the economy there. Our town was centralized around a Millsop Mill- a employee owned steel mill, union ran it, and it provided free heating to the community center and kept the library funded, etc. College was made free if you had good grades, so on and so on.

After Clinton did his Anakin Skywalker attack on the Jedi Temple there, slaying the economy left and right in some self-righteous liberal hell march, the local Ohio River Valley economy went shit up. I never believed in state ran socialism- state never did anything for us but come after people and hurt them. Tore families apart and attracted crime. After I got out of the military, I returned, there were shootings, prostitution, and gambling casinos INSIDE OF HOUSES, one on both ends of the block of the house I lived in as a child, and immediately across the street. Drugs were everywhere, and so were the cops.

I went after a year and stayed with my god mother in Cincinnati- but the jobs were as lost, and the only thing going was more socialism- everyone wanted more and more casinos for more work- and the bullshit taxes. It cripples the wealth of the old who need it the most, and ruins the economy, fucking sick. It's a bunch of mafia sickos making millions while the taxes are a slim, slim portion. No one wins but the house, and supposedly 'uncle sam' but fuckers can't think this sort of shit through. They say 'oh look, a few hundred thousand dollars for schools in our district' never mind your daughter is growing up to become a infected prostitute and your sons are hanging around guys like Smears.

It's not worth it. I notice Canada has to have big ass casinos near every boarder exit to attract American dollars- farming the elderly, stealing their money.

It's not so much that Adam Smith style Capitalism is bust, but we're stuck in a echo chamber via the universities regurgitating the same old shit over and over again- people can't think out of this situation we're in because it's all theoretical and not real anymore to the people in charge, our intelligencia. That's what 150 years of Socialism vs Capitalism did to us.... people see too many alternatives and hybrids.... and it's all bullshit that doesn't stick to reality. We have no objective metrics to test stuff with anymore- it used to be the currency under Smith and the Austrian school.... but the federal reserve got clever and shit and floods the economy with enough currency to the most dilapidated parts of the economy that we simply can't make sense of what's not working and what is. It's gotten so bad people actually think service industry socialism GENERATES money, improving the economy. Think about how deeply stupid and inherently retarded that is. It's like saying using a disposable batter increases the amount of electricity it has inside of it. But that's the age we live in. Just points out how inherently useless our universities are.

Obviously in Cincinnati, seeing so many people living on welfare, making baby after baby working fast food..... living in state funded housing, I said fuck this, and started on my own counter lifestyle. If I can't carve my way through this world as independently as possible, then I shall not be a part of it. State funded socialism is the great plague of our generation.
Support "The Angels of East Africa" on smile.Amazon.com it is free to do, they donate 0.05% of your purchase cost to them, or give donations directly via:

http://www.machinegunpreacher.org

Image

Recently hidden post:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=192227&p=2649513#p2649513
User avatar
The Golden Turd
Fucking Unflushable
 
Posts: 9450
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:37 am
Location: Apparently Well Up Manical Mongoose's Ass

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:41 am

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/05/ponzis-end.html

"how can people who make $20K a year afford $200K apartments that need another $100K in buildout? "

Sounds like the situation most of the middle class of the EU, JAPAN and a good part of the USA find themselves in doesn't it ? 20,000 dollars a year income, 200,000 dollars to buy a home or 1,000 dollars a month to rent. But if you go to Madrid or London or Rome, you are at about 300,000 dollars to buy a puny home and 2,000 dollars a month to rent. I think the situation in Tokyo and Moscow is even worse, but we all know that Real Estate and Property have become a great weapon to beat up people who have less income, a great way to distribute wealth from the poorer people to the richer, and also to let banks make a huge amount of money by forcing people to pay interests on large loans taken out to pay for high home prices and such.

"Therefore, I believe Kunstler is very vulnerable to the call of a cult with the trappings of the authoritarian, religioun based societies of "simpler" times. "

He is already inside a religious CULT: the Green, Tree Hugging, Environmentalist, Love Nature and Kill Consumerism cult that has infected most of the Western World. We have been living, starting from the 1960s on, a huge Nature Loving, Plastic and industry hating, Future and Science and Technology hating Religion and Ideology that wants the USA, EU and JAPAN to go back to a fairy tale past of living poor and with no creature comforts and such. Well, I hate that religion, it is killing our economy and the future, we should be doing the exact opposite: building trillions of Skyscrapers, Rockets to Mars, Highways, Nuclear Power Plants by the trillions, changing our Brain Style etc. etc. We need huge consumerism, we need to hate nature and simply use it as a tool for our purposes, be a Pig, be Greedy, show Nature that you are the Boss, beat it up like it deserves to be, we didn't choose this "Nature" or Matter to develop like this, some random blind forces of Natural Evolution gave us this quirky flukey design of carbon based material that has no higher status or value or metaphysical worth than any other material: just look at the planet Mars and how empty it is, a whole lot of Nothing, just the way I like it, it is bare, no Nature there, only Dead Rocks, the way Nature should really be, Dead, Empty, with No meanings or designs, especially no pain/pleasure circuits, or look at the center of Stars, what most of the material of the universe is organized as: a plasma of high energy particles, it is not a solid or a liquid or a gas, but a fourth state of Matter that we cannot relate to in any possible way, so cool, that is the way I like it, kill this Carbon Based world that sucks so much, etc.

On the Chinese Housing Bubble. Well they are building the homes as an "Investment", so they expect to be able to sell it to someone in the future at a "Higher Price": good luck with that, that didn't work out too well in the USA or Spain or JAPAN (that popped their bubble 20 years ago and still can't recover, go figure).

But it is the entire idea of "Investment" that is flawed, the idea of finding something stable, something secure, something sure etc. But nothing will ever be sure, security doesn't exist, nothing is an Investment really, it all depends on random forces and circumstances that occur for any old reason, so no matter how hard you try to create "security" to "protect your money", it will never be guaranteed, it can all fade away in a jiffy: you just need a war, an earthquake, an economic crisis and anything else. Housing and Real Estate is NOT AN INVESTMENT, and in the end neither is Cash, or Gold or Diamonds or anything else, it is all an Illusion, a false hope that things will be stable, a search for "Security" when security will never exist as life is defined exactly by all of its surprises and deep intrinsic, structural insecurities: but life is all about unstable and surprises, nay, the economy itself must constantly be unstable and changing and constantly killing all investments and certainty to function at all, since the economy is a fight and constant game changing hand of poker, since that is what creates the engine of economic activity, along with Inequality and all kinds of games with a Winner and a Loser, etc.

Anyways, the entire idea of "Investment" should be hosed, there is nothing worth investing in anymore, just invest in huge Consumption and trillions of empty Skyscrapers and trillions of Rockets to Mars and such.


On China:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175880

"I was looking at some of China on google maps and photos and such. It is "beyond pale", as someone said, they are really building like there is only tomorrow! You can estimate how much excess real estate inventory they already have by a simple thought experiment: the USA has 300 million people, so just imagine to add four extra floors to all homes in the USA to host 1.5 billion. Now look at their towns and cities, most of their buildings have 4 or more floors, but also thousands upon thousands of various high rises, no way they can pull off the excuse of "population", it just doesn't hold, they simply have huge excess capacity with no end in sight."

and

"Maybe the Chinese government should start paying itself some serious property tax, can you imagine how much cash they could obtain by printing it and giving it to themselves in the form of property taxes and then flooding the world with their cash ? "

THE APE JOB

Author Profile Page 8man | May 29, 2012 4:47 AM | Reply

Or look at the center of Stars, what most of the material of the universe is organized as: a plasma of high energy particles, it is not a solid or a liquid or a gas, but a fourth state of Matter that we cannot relate to in any possible way, so cool, that is the way I like it, kill this Carbon Based world that sucks so much, etc.

Also from:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=175880

"I can't stand these Greens and Environmentalists and scaredy cats all afraid of manipulating the living daylights out of Nature, always finding something poisonous and bad in every process, you can't build atomic energy reactors, you can't build high speed trains, you can't do this or that and this or that. What c*cks! all in the name of Nature, this phony "False Religion" if I ever saw one (give us back the Catholics and the old Christ, or even the old Christian Fundamentalists with their hell and punishment and all, but please don't introduce yet another fake religion, another belief system, another set of crappy values). It is their fault we have the economic crisis, we should consume and build like there is no tomorrow, we should build trillions of Skyscrapers, Rockets to Mars, trillions of Malls, buy and throw away like crazy, every 3 years change all furniture and cars, wild crazy consumption, and hose nature, use nature until it no longer exists, since then we will use Mars, and the Sun itself, go on, do it, you can do it, go on."


THE EIGHT MAN
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Tue May 29, 2012 9:51 am

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/05/ponzis-end.html

THE EIGHT MAN
Author Profile Page 8man | May 29, 2012 4:54 AM | Reply

From:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=179254

Author Profile Page 8man | May 29, 2012 4:57 AM | Reply

Also:

http://instantsingularity3.blogspot.it

and

http://instantsingularity1.blogspot.it
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby The Golden Turd » Tue May 29, 2012 10:07 am

I don't know who that blog writer is.... but I do espouse a light version of Cynic distancing from the immediacy of buying crap for everyone in their personal lives, and trying to make or scavenge what they can on their own. Instead of buying a wooden chair, if you have a garage and a fallen tree in the woodline, build a chair..... practice John Ruskin's Nature of Gothic mentality.

Yeah.... environmentalists have done a lot to preserve environments, but they are actively destructive as well, and cause a lot of senseless destruction. I'm actually probably 'more environmental' than the vast majority of environmentalist. My total electrical use of all appliances is under 100 watts together, next to no carbon footprint, save in canned foods, etc. However, their just not thinking logically at times.... or perhaps it is logic, but isn't reasonable in the least, and have their priorities all messed up, and it can usually be traced to a profitable political collusion from one group vs another using them. Like here in Hawaii- the environmentalists cockblocked a ferry linking up three islands here, on the basis of environmental unknowns...... meanwhile there are fishing ships traveling the exact same routes daily, spreading for over the last 100 years exactly what the ferry was spreading the three years it was already in operation for. I did some research.... didn't even have to dig that deep- shipping union here backed the environmentalists..... carried their crazy delusions over everyone else's objections with their money and threat of votes..... and now the islands are essentially isolated again.

The recession is in part linked to this and other events like it...... honestly, nothing was getting people and goods moving around, and more affordable housing and job access found, than having that trans ferry here. Instead, these crazy environmentalists are fucking everything over without thinking about what their doing who who's manipulating them.
Support "The Angels of East Africa" on smile.Amazon.com it is free to do, they donate 0.05% of your purchase cost to them, or give donations directly via:

http://www.machinegunpreacher.org

Image

Recently hidden post:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=192227&p=2649513#p2649513
User avatar
The Golden Turd
Fucking Unflushable
 
Posts: 9450
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:37 am
Location: Apparently Well Up Manical Mongoose's Ass

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Tue May 29, 2012 12:44 pm

People Suck

It is not intrinsic to housing or real estate to be such a pain in the a*s, housing can and should cost very little, even right in the middle of Manhattan, Tokyo, Paris, Madrid, Rome (no more than 50,000 dollars for a three bedroom house should be the Real Scientific Cost of most houses there) etc. It is people that suck, not houses, people that need to make cash, ever more cash from property, people suck not property, people with all of their contention, conflicts, bickering and fighting, the "Market" and such BS. Especially since we now live in an Excess Capacity Infinite Resource Technological Economy that can deliver all basic goods to all for Free, etc. But the economy, but especially this old fashioned Stone Age Man Brain needs the fight, the conflict, the contrast, the inequality, the winner or loser game, the bickering to distribute wealth, to find out "who deserves more and who doesn't" (which then all boils down to who is the stronger puncher, or who can brainwash who on any BS conceivable, or who has the better personality or "People Skills", "Soft Skills" which really means, who is the better BS artist, etc).

But the economy needs exchanges in order to operate, and exchanges imply someone who has something that someone else needs, but if those that have the goods, like property cannot exchange it for anything valuable the poor average turds can exchange, the prices of those properties go sky high: and this is because most people don't have anything of any value to exchange, are useless turds, are a big fat ZERO, and nothing and no one can do anything about it since especially all labor has been automated and optimized away and that little labor left to exchange, that is not slave factories in India, is reserved to very few top notch players, or especially the few that have "the right contacts" and the right "status level" accordingly, since it is all about status today, all about the haves keeping what they have and the have nots remaining without, etc.

Therefore wee need Free Salaries to all worldwide, Cheap Rents and huge public private projects hiring trillions of people to build those trillions of things I always talk about, like a drone, like a cry baby, like an APE JOB, trillions of Cadillacs and Rockets and BUSes etc.

And we need more work like a hole in the head, we need most people idle watching TV all day long, the greatest invention of all time since TV is an automatic life, you don't need anything more but to watch TV forever and enjoy. If you want to work, you can work for free in a hobby factory building Skyscrapers, Rockets and Cadillacs (maybe for an hour or three hours a day, you choose, etc.).

TOBOR THE APE JOB
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby The Golden Turd » Wed May 30, 2012 6:48 am

Why do you keep referring to a ape?
Support "The Angels of East Africa" on smile.Amazon.com it is free to do, they donate 0.05% of your purchase cost to them, or give donations directly via:

http://www.machinegunpreacher.org

Image

Recently hidden post:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=192227&p=2649513#p2649513
User avatar
The Golden Turd
Fucking Unflushable
 
Posts: 9450
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:37 am
Location: Apparently Well Up Manical Mongoose's Ass

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby SIATD v2 » Wed May 30, 2012 8:53 am

Contra-Nietzsche wrote:Why do you keep referring to a ape?


I worry about this ape fixation. I think it's going to end up like this:

It's like going to heaven and finding God smokin' crack!
Magsj wrote:I met a guy who abhorred all authority figures but he was lovely ergo.. the two can go together.
User avatar
SIATD v2
One Man Pussy Riot
 
Posts: 2415
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:24 am

Free Stuff Will Set You Free

Redistribution of wealth is impossible. Exactly as we have become rich enough (mostly thanks to Technical Knowledge and the Technological Economy) to do anything and give all the basic needs to all and then get on with the Future finally, project and design the Future by building trillions of things, things upon things like crazy, like a robot, like a drone, like insanity achieved, such as Trillions of Skyscrapers, Trillions of people with new Brain Styles having new circuits, wild Brains, really wild and creative new Processors as Brains with many new subsystems and new block diagrams (trillions of complex block diagrams and symbols and components and schematics, like electronic circuits describing brand New Brains and Observers and Processors doing anything and Experiencing anything imaginable), Trillions of Cadillacs, Trillions of Rockets to Mars and to the Sun (with trillions of people inside them, so they roast, baby, roast) we have no way to redistribute the wealth and get the projects going anymore: the model of distribution of wealth based on Work and Labor (which has been rendered Obsolete by Optimizations and Automation and such) can no longer work since "work" is no longer available and especially necessary, and especially the Technological Economy has made the random Free Wills of the Powers that Be (the rich and those that can "Invest" in any productive activity) ever more powerful and dominating (and quirky and flukey) since they are the only ones that can choose if and on what millions of others will work on or not work on at all, etc.

So given that there is no way, or a random fluke, ever changing way to distribute wealth by hiring and firing and always changing the "value of what is being exchanged", as it is all about Services, Culture, exchanging mostly symbols that are supposed to have some imaginary and arbitrary value and such (like Blackberry smartphones are now "out of Style" hence the value of that device and that company is now a big FAT ZERO, and so on), since the number of possible new exchanges that could correspond to "new jobs" is ever more reduced (since optimized and automated, etc.), since THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH POSSIBLE EXCHANGES BETWEEN PEOPLE IMAGINABLE SUCH AS TO CREATE THE CORRESPONDING NUMBER OF MILLIONS OF JOBS NECESSARY WORLDWIDE (after all when you exchange some food, some manufacturing goods, cars, houses, some health care and some other crap, very little is left to exchange between people, there is no way you can force other exchanges, no matter how hard you try, and in fact, the exchanges that appear - that are then produced are mostly created, invented, are mostly imaginable and imaginary, symbols, fluff, "Information" (Facebook ?) which can have any value at all and can be exchanged (and forced on people by laws ?) but they have no real basic value, since only housing, food, cars and some other basics have real value, are really part of an economy) then the only solution is to give a Free Salary to All and Cheap Rents to All Worldwide and huge public - private projects like Skyscrapers and Rockets, etc.

Absurdity of the Science of Economics ? But the absurdity of Economics or any Science that wants to describe, predict or discover the underlying laws of Economics or Sociology or all of the Social Sciences is that they are based on imagining that societies and groups of people follow any rules at all, are stable, follow some kind of invariant logic and such: nothing further from the truth, societies have no rules, they are just a huge mess of actions and reactions of everyone against everyone else (or collaborating or anything else) of point like random quirk decisions and will powers changing everything constantly, a series of chaotic events, random events that cannot be put in a box and "talked about" and such.

Like a box containing a material where any point can influence any other point or points or volume, area and reciprocally and such, since Information connects all with all, and the ensemble of Man Brains action and reacting constantly in all kinds of possible ways.

And in fact we simply talk about imaginary worlds and logical structures pretending that the Economy will work according to what we decide is the model and such (but it could also work since there is a positive feedback loop in as if everyone believes in the models and thinks that "that is the truth and operating", they will actually make the model become true and such) but they are all fairy tales, mental models, words putting large ensembles of unrelated things together in a box and "talking about it" (like unemployment, JOBS, GDP, etc.) and pretending that the ensemble operates as a unit, a single item, like a number and follows simple logic, simple cause and effects (especially since the ensemble contains individual people with their individual will powers and decisions and random actions and such that is ever changing, that can change from any moment to the next (to anything at all, any fight at all or anything at all) and the will power decisions and events can be anything at all since the Man Brain is a totally unstable, chaotic, random entity that can change moment to moment to anything at all and the connection of random events and actions between people can go anywhere at all).

Failure of mental models anyways ? everything is a description of make believe large scale items encompassing many distinct and independent items all based on many distinct random will powers, events, totally unknown and unpredictable fluke events happening for no reason at all in any point in time and space at all, etc. (like the twin tower attacks) and having any large scale consequences at all, etc.

But all of the above is false, since all of the above is just another "Mental Model", all crap, all useless crap that can be and will be contradicted by reality in a jiffy for any reason at all.


TOBOR THE EIGHTH MAN
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:17 am

Mental Model Mode ?

We are always fighting ourselves, actually fighting reality as it must abide to all of our Mental Models, the past was A (or we want the future to be A, hence we constantly compare the present with our expectations, and what we expect should be with what is, and get mad and angry at someone or something or the economy or politics or society, etc. who is at fault for not letting it be A and such, etc.) and now it is B, but I want it to be A, it must return to A, my Mental Model of the world having to be in state A is forcing me to constantly compare the present state of the world and hoping, forcing, thinking about how to make it go back to A, or why it isn't back to A, or why A will never return, or anything else regarding A and B, or a pity party on how I lost this and that since the events, random, independent from me (or sometimes depending on me, or was it me, or was it me in conflict with myself and any other?) made the world go from A to B. And the same Mental Model Mode of being a prisoner of our models and ideas and causes and effects we think should be and are operating or hope are operating or wish to make operating deal with the future, with our plans and expectations and projects and comparing how events, and luck and effort or whatever is bringing us closer to the goal , the target that the Mental Model imposes must be achieved no matter what, etc.

But these Mental Models are all worthless junk, have no value, throw them all away, throw away the past and future and all Mental Models and expectations and projects, free your mind instead, don't be a slave of Mental Models and comparing you state with the past or future and how it should be, or should have been, and how unhappy you are because your Mental Model did not come to be or has been lost, the entire idea of the "good past being lost", of losing anything is a false loss, the myth of the Loss, I lost A or I lost this item, situation whatever that I had and such, in all truth we never lose anything, we are always in the same steady random useless state, the Law of Conservation of any State a Man Brain is in, no state or situation or past or future or anything has any higher Metaphysical or Spiritual value compared to any other, they are all fake inequalities we impose on different realities to make our Mind fight with itself, trying to achieve as reality future Mental Models or going back to past Mental Models, and punishing ourselves uselessly on all of this BS, comparing the Mental Model, the theory with what is actually reality and trying to force things to go in certain directions.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:11 pm

Cause and Effect ?

Like when it is said that Unemployment is due to high taxes and such: the goal is really less taxes, not to solve Unemployment and such even because no one can ever demonstrate that connection, or better yet, everyone will demonstrate the connection they want according to what examples they take or just because and such. Because Unemployment is an intractable systems wide (culture wide, values wide, psychological etc.), process wide effect, that isn't even clearly understood as even being an effect or "problem": high employment seems to be much more of a flaw than unemployment in a Technological Economy or in a high productivity economy and such, since the work being done should be optimizing and eliminating more work than it creates, or else the work being done is not only a diminishing return endeavor but a negative return endeavor, more present work should mean less future work if that work is really being productive, not more future work, etc.

But of course, the effect wanted, the process, the causes and all such items get all confused when a Man Brain with its desire to have an advantage over some other Man Brain is trying to "explain" the "Problems" and the "Solutions", etc, when it is all ideological (as in all things economical and political) as usual, but especially when the bottom line of all is simply the fight, A against B, the conflict, the contrast, the game, A wins B loses, etc, no matter how sophisticated (and hidden the agenda) they get with the explanations and politics and ideology and theory, it all boils down to a simple fight, A wants to gain, wants an upper hand by making B pay for it and such, a one transistor circuit.

But this method of always saying there is problem B that must be solved, the solution of the problem is A, but A gives an upper hand to the party talking about and describing and discovering the "problem" is done all the time: like saying that unemployment can improve and "more jobs can be created" by "a more flexible labor market and no unions" (who says so ? who invented this cause and effect ? who can demonstrate it ? or are you (corporations) creating this invention and applying it so you can get rid of unions ? etc.) or "more jobs can be created" by "more education", another example of totally disjoint causes and effects that no one can demonstrate, that are totally intractable, and anyone can demonstrate this as true or false according to what statistics, numbers, examples, countries or companies they take as an example and such.

Add to this that all of these (imaginary ?) causes and effects have feedback loops, with both positive and negative feedback paths, since "more education" may mean "more teachers" but also "more books printed" and such and at the same time companies themselves are brainwashed by the imaginary "cause and effect" to hire more people who are educated, in a complex loop confusing the cause with the effect (desired ?) and invention and the process and all else.

In short, all things Economical and Social are Processes, complex intractable Processes with both positive and negative feedback loops and ESPECIALLY WHERE THE DESCRIPTION OF THE PROCESS ITSELF MODIFIES THE PROCESS, THE INFORMATION WITHIN THE PROCESS INVENTING OR ASSIGNING THE "PROBLEMS" AND "CAUSES AND EFFECTS" ACTUALLY CREATES THOSE VERY "CAUSES AND EFFECTS" AND ALSO DESTROYS THEM, in an ever changing intractable random and chaotic systems wide process with millions of moving and distinct and independent and separate (but every now and then combined and unit creating) parts.

Of course as usual, all of the above is false, or true or whatever, and even though you may discover that all political talk is "hidden agenda based", you can be sure that there will always be something else, some new invention that will always hide the agenda all over again without you noticing it again, as there are ever clever ways to deceive and invent and hide the real simple fight and conflict and contrast that is the only true thing always operating.

My agenda is not hidden: I want a Free Salary and Cheap Rents, if not for everyone, at least for me, so I am honest, I am saying exactly what I want and I want the Government to Pay for it all, so there, I said (and I could care less if "someone" else is working to "pay me", who gives two c*cks and a d*ck ?, what clowns!).

AN APE, AN 8 MAN, A TOBOR
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:41 pm

From:

http://kunstler.com/blog/2012/05/ponzis-end.html

"From:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=179254

And in fact we simply talk about imaginary worlds and logical structures pretending that the Economy will work according to what we decide is the model and such (but it could also work since there is a positive feedback loop in as if everyone believes in the models and thinks that "that is the truth and operating", they will actually make the model become true and such) but they are all fairy tales, mental models, words putting large ensembles of unrelated things together in a box and "talking about it" (like unemployment, JOBS, GDP, etc.) and pretending that the ensemble operates as a unit, a single item, like a number and follows simple logic, simple cause and effects (especially since the ensemble contains individual people with their individual will powers and decisions and random actions and such that is ever changing, that can change from any moment to the next (to anything at all, any fight at all or anything at all) and the will power decisions and events can be anything at all since the Man Brain is a totally unstable, chaotic, random entity that can change moment to moment to anything at all and the connection of random events and actions between people can go anywhere at all)."

Actually, all language operates like this, all words are often "putting large ensembles of unrelated things together in a box and "talking about it"", many words, sentences, concepts, blocks of texts, ideologies, theories, you name it, many ideas are simply abstractions, gross simplifications, using words to mean many things, but that can only be applied to a very small and specific subset of events, items, effects and such.

All words and thoughts are huge abstractions and simplifications, hence this is why we are always in Mental Model Mode, and always fighting our own mind, fighting ourselves and the world and others, since very seldom does our Mental Mode, our Desires coincide or have anything to do with the world, and especially fighting and blaming (not entirely wrong though) other people and their power and will powers and choices, political choices and effects and you name it they have and such.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby nameta9 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:58 pm

Exactly What does That Word Mean ?

They talk about Economics, Growth, Jobs, GDP and so many other Abstract and essentially Undefined Words, like Productivity, Competitiveness, Innovation, Eduaction and so on. But exactly what do they mean by a word like Innovation or Productivity ? No one knows, or everyone defines it as they please, or it can mean anything and the contrary of anything at all and so on: no one ever says exactly What Must Grow when they talk about Sparking Growth (more car production ? more houses built? or simply higher prices for houses, which is the only thing that really grew from 2000 to 2010, etc.) and that the Southern European Countries must Grow and such. But the real reason why all of these ideas and concepts are undefined, abstract, impossible to pinpoint down (intractable, remember this word: intractable, impossible to follow) is because by using ambiguous concepts and ideas and words, you can make any kind of politics pass as correct and reasonable, you can connect any cause and effect any way you want to since no one can ever really control or follow such intractable concepts such as Education and Innovation "Creating jobs" and such.

So all of language and thoughts and concepts are full of undefined, abstract, unknown, inventions meaning mostly nothing, very questionable "Causes and Effects" that pass as "Economic Science" and such when it is all Arbitrary Power Plays and Games, and convincing the victims to believe in an Ideology that essentially hoses them and robs them: that is why they should Proudly and Bluntly ask for the only thing that really counts: Free Salaries and Cheap Rents. AMEN.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1888
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby Typist » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:07 pm

I agree, American warfare is better.
User avatar
Typist
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:32 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby Typist » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Bomb the trolls!!
User avatar
Typist
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1035
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:32 am

Re: American Welfare is Better

Postby James S Saint » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:36 pm

Hey. Trolls need welfare too.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm


Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users