feminism and sexism

I’ve been undergoing therapy lately. That’s right, therapy. And self-therapy no less. No, no, not through self-help books and the like but forcing myself to engage in a subject matter which is a very touchy one for me in the hopes that if I become more informed about it and exposed to a diversity of views about it, I will gain a better handle on my “issues”. The issue is sexism and feminism, and the therapy is youtube.

I’ve been typing “sexism” and “feminism” into the youtube search bar for the past week now, and I’ve come across a wide variety of views, some enlightening, some ignorant, some humorous, some serious, some calm and level-head, some angry and fanatical, some appealing, some offensive, some by men (for and against), some by women (for and against).

I want to start a discussion on feminism and sexism in today’s society and across the globe generally (consider it part of my therapy).

I want to start with a definition of “sexism” (which you are free to debate) and a definition “feminism” (which isn’t mine so you can debate it all you want, but you’d have to take it up with the feminists themselves).

Sexism: the attitude that one sex is inherently inferior or less worthy than the other because of their sex (which does not include differences demonstrable by scientific/emperical fact–ex. men are physically superior to women in muscular strength, women are superior to men in child bearing capabilities).

Feminism: the belief that there ought to be equality between the sexes with an emphasis on helping to raise women up to a level of equality with men.

Now I have learnt via youtube that there is a distinction often made between what might be called “moderate feminism” and “radical feminism” (feminazis). Some argue that radical feminists don’t really adhere to the above definition (whether they admit it or not, whether they are aware of it or not) and are more aptly described as believing (or acting as if they believe) that women are superior to men and ought to have more rights and priviledges than men. Some argue that moderate feminism can be contrast with radical feminism chiefly by the latters hatred of men (as opposed to their championing of women). If this is true, then radical feminism is sexist (according to my above definition) whereas moderate feminism is not.

To my surprise, I found (via youtube) that there is a great number (possibly the majority) of women in America (and elsewhere in the western world) who are against feminism. Whether that’s moderate or radical feminism is unclear, but according to their reasoning, I would guess the latter. However, feminism in recent years has acquired enough of a stigma that these women are dispensing with the label all together. It’s no wonder that recently I’ve been hearing women say “I’m not a feminist but…”. This usually takes me by surprise a little bit–What? Your not a feminist? Why not? Don’t you want to be part of a movement that fights for women’s right? Aren’t you proud of being a woman?–well, it’s not that they aren’t proud and it’s not that they don’t believe in women’s rights; it’s that feminism–radical feminism–is coming dangerously close to biggotry in recent years.

But that’s not all. An aversion to being identified with a sexist group seems to be the least of their concerns. It turns out that the leaders of the radical feminist groups are actually making life miserable for women across America and the West in numerous ways. Some of the top concerns of American/Western women are:

• That women who want nothing more out of life but to be a stay-at-home mom and home maker, which represents a huge portion of the female population if not the majority, are being made to feel by radical feminists that such a choice is shameful and undignified–so much so that many women are ashamed to admit it even to their peers.

• Radical feminists are making women feel ashamed about their desires to form relationships with, get married to, and generally fall in love with men.

• Radical feminists are making a lot of noise over trivial issues domenstically (such as being treated as sex objects, glass ceilings in the work force, not being taken seriously in traditional public male rolls, etc.) but paying no attention to dramatically more serious women’s rights issues across the globe (such as honor killing and acid face washes in the middle east, female genital mutilation in Africa, the barring of education to girls, infanticide of newborn girls in China, etc.). This is not to say that such domenstic issues aren’t important, but that when juxtaposed next to these more global issues, harping about the former and ignoring the latter makes radical feminists look like spoiled little rich princesses (not to mention plainly uneducated about these more global issues).

• Women in America and the West are learning that a lot of what they have been taught in their post-secondary education when it comes to feminist issues (in courses like sociology, anthropology, history, polisci) has been overwelmingly determined as part of the curriculum by radical feminists and is demonstrably untrue (I can link you to a youtube video that gives examples of this).

• That many of the policies lobbied for by radical feminists, and being passed in legislation, are harming the economy and making it more difficult for women (and people in general) to get jobs. An example of this is that businesses are going under because they are being forced to higher women who are plainly unqualified for jobs just to meet quotas imposed on them, and in some cases being charged with discrimination (thus weaking the business and in some cases destroying it outright) simply because too few or no women applied. This weakens the economy and therefore makes jobs more scarce, and that in turn makes it more difficult for women (and men) to get jobs.

Now if you want a smattering of the youtube videos I have been watching, just do what I did. Enter “sexism” and “feminism” into the youtube search bar and take your pick. One excellent source that I stumbled across is this:

youtube.com/watch?v=qH-mjGNqlHs

The video itself is very interesting, but what’s more interesting is the link that’s immediately available at the begin (right in the middle of the viewing pane) which takes you to a playlist of 87 videos (it says 80 but it’s actually 87) featuring women who are speaking out against radical feminism (or feminism all together). It’s a smattering that runs the gamut from amateur teenagers speaking right into their webcams at home to professionals delivering speaches and lectures in formal conferences and media programs. It’s actually quite shocking what I hear.

Now a warning to the women out there: this isn’t for the faint of heart. I don’t know how faint your heart is, or whether you’ll find it as shocking I do, but I feel I should warn you that some of the videos might be offensive (I just don’t know). But I don’t think it need be offensive. Maybe “challenging” is a better word. This is not to say that you will be moved by it in any way, or that it will be at all new to you (I don’t know–being a man, I’m not sure what a woman finds shocking, offensive, or what she has already been exposed to or believes in her heart of hearts). I also feel I should warn you (and the men on here as well) that some of these videos encourage women to submit to their husband’s authority, but it becomes obvious after a short while of watching these videos that most of them (I’m prepared to say all of them) are religiously motivated (i.e. you should submit to your husbands because the Bible says so). If you choose to skip over these ones, I don’t blame you. I started doing that myself when I learnt to identify them almost as soon as they began. I’m more interested in the views of the women who are citing objective facts (scientific, statistical, documented government policies, etc.) or have rationally thought-out arguments that are valid in a secular context (and this represents most of the videos).

I also want to encourage you to look up girlwriteswhat on youtube as she has some fascinating views on the whole feminism/sexism topic in America and the West.

Well, if you choose not to watch these videos (I won’t blame you–there’s a lot of them), I at least would like to hear what you have to say (regardless of your sex) because I really need to hash out these issues with people in order to get over my psychological hang-ups

Good luck with that.

I sense sarcasm.

A lot of people have such historical blinders they do not realize that much of what they take for granted today was considered radical feminism at some point - and I am not thinking we have to go back to suffragette times. So they distance themselves or rant against feminism, not realizing that many things they agree with, like, think are OK, could care less about, etc., were considered radical ideas not that long ago.

There are different types of radicals, also. IOW some, yes, might be critical of a woman ‘only’ being a mother and housewife. But others would not be. This latter groups still might think that sexism is much more entrenched than moderates realize, they might have more radical political approaches to changing things, judgments of men etc., but they need not necessarily judge women for choosing an option, in fact thinking that it is the option that is important not which option someone takes.

My experience is that some feminists think that men are worth less than women. But these women have less impact than the men who think women are worth less than men, as far as I can tell.

I stopped reading there because it was just about the most pretentious thing I’ve read in the last month. I knew nothing good was coming after it, but I wanted you to have good luck.

Moreno,

The main criticism against radical feminism by women today is that it has gone far beyond what the pioneering women fought for, and that it has become more about hating men than championing women. They say that radical feminists are striving today for superiority over men rather than equality with them, and that they are making women feel ashamed for wanting to be stay-at-home moms. They say that what the pioneering feminists of the early twenthieth century fought for is markedly different from what the feminists of the 60s and radical feminists of today are fighting for, and they are uncomfortable with the current direction it is heading in. This, to me, seems like a very informed awareness of the present and the past.

This brand of radical feminist might exist, but I’m basing my points on what I’m hearing from the women on youtube (not that youtube is an authoritative source by any stretch of the imagination, but I think it does reflect real people’s views), and no one’s mentioned anything like what you described. Most of the women who believe in giving women the option of what to do with their lives tend to be humanitarian and defenders of human rights in general. It would seem odd, to say the least, that such women would be against the rights of men in favor of those of women.

I think your point holds in principle. I just don’t see it happening in practice (not yet anyway).

What comes to mind, Moreno, when you say this are the Christian fundamentalist men who are in power in various places throughout the US. When it comes to religion, I have no problem agreeing that it is highly sexist against women. I believe the sexism is indirect though (the more direct motive being the religion itself), but indirect sexism is still sexism.

So I think on the whole your right–but again, this is more a matter of how things actually are in a practical sense, but not how things work in principle.

As an example of how radical feminism is starting to have a greater impact on men’s safety, I recommend watching some of girlwriteswhat’s videos. She sites some real life incidents that have actually happened (ex. a radical feminist barging in on a battered men’s convention claiming that they all had it coming because they probably threw the first punch, or signs advertizing plans to hold a men’s rights conferences being torn town by radical feminists).

captaincrunk,

You do realize I was being facetious, don’t you?

What about it struck you as “pretentious”?

pre·ten·tious/priˈtenCHəs/
Adjective:
Attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.

What aspect of what I said fits this description?

I wish you would reconsider reading it. I think what I say will spark an interest. You’re choice.

They are confused if they think what the 60s feminists were fighting for is somehow radical. At that time women in many fields were considered little more than children. Mad Men is actually a fair presentation of how women were viewed, talked to and thought of by men. What the early 20th century feminists primarily managed was the right to vote.

As I said I don’t think being radical means that you necessarily think women are superior. In fact a lot of anti-feminist women can think that men are stupid ignorant penis driven morons they have to be careful around. There are a wide variety of viewpoints at all the various parts of the not feminist to feminist spectrum on issues like superiority of one sex or being a housewife. You can find women lawyers and doctors who refuse to say they are remotely feminist also.

I got a good deal of my education around people where many were radical feminists. I also read a lot of works in the field and all I can say is what you are saying is representative does not fit what I have experienced. I saw little homemaker baiting. They might react if they thought the men were treating the women like children, but the mere fact that the woman was in the home and nto out in a profession was not an issue for most of them.

I am quite sure it is in practice, in fact I know it is. But perhaps those people are not using youtube. Think about who is going to be drawn to the medium and who is less likely to be.

Frats, military men, many other kinds of conservatives and liberals also.

I assume you meant this the other way. Oh, I think it does work out this way. Look around at porn sites or sites where men discuss women. Sure, there are women talking trash about men, but I think the weight and violent degradation of the other sex is still more heavy on the male side. And then, well, not so many men are getting raped by women.

Just to add to your list of “opinions”…

Feminism and sexism have absolutely nothing to do with justness or fairness of any kind. They are entirely founded in insidious egocentric efforts to dominate, not the sexes, but the races, and in fact, all humanity… by a particular malevolent (and male) social-Ego. Women are merely a convenient tool for their cause.

Oy, Alright there are significant differences in the genders mentally and physically. Males are more suitable for some things, females in others, then there are things both are equal at. Differences balance out. There is equality.
The feminist of today is far different than the suffragette of yesterday.They look down on male and female alike if you don’t think women are superior to males. They will cite history, government etcetc. Arguing with one is like talking to a wall. The main thing I have seen with interactions with them is a superego, the same goes for their male opposite. Genetic? Upbringing?
I do also notice a complete lack of manners on a social level to the point of complete rudeness to both genders.Unless they need something.
The family I work for is old Southern yet modern. What has had me chuckling for awhile now is his gentleman upbringing fighting with modern ideas. I carry the family garbage to the curb on Thursdays, this used to be done by my son when he worked for them, I took over all his jobs, this one historically is a male job, taking out the garbage no lady should do this dirty work. Well, when he realized I was doing it, it bugged him, ge took it out before I got there, so I started arriving early. Without words we have finally reached a compromise, he takes the garbage out of the cans and puts them in the cart I then take it to the curb. He feels good and I feel good, equality is achieved by caring for each others ideas and beliefs as it should be.

Which is a bit pretentious, and humor is supposed to make people laugh.

How about all of it?!?!?!?

I’m so very sorely tempted.

Hi gib,
In the OP, you begin by defining feminism as

Then you go on to make the distinction between feminism and radical feminism, presumably to acknowledge that there is, in fact, a significant difference between the two.

But from that point forward, the two become conflated, as in this statement:

I have long wondered about the motive for the pervasive conflation of “feminism” and “radical feminism.” I think it does have many of today’s young people [young women especially] quick to distance themselves from the “feminist” label, which I find somewhat disturbing. Because if you asked them if they agreed with the dictionary definition of feminism:

, I’m pretty sure you’d be hard-pressed to find any educated Westerner who would seriously disagree with that.

Kris’s post is a great example:

Actually no, that’s radical feminism, not the genuine, “strict definition” feminist philosophy.

The true “feminist of today” does things like this:

So I’d ask you, gib, why do you think it is that so many people would characterize feminism as being its most radical version?

Do you think there could be an ulterior motive behind that sort of rhetoric? Is it advantageous to give feminism a decidedly negative spin [as you yourself point out, the more radical viewpoint is sexist]? Do you think it’s done to foster fear and opposition, sort of like seeing all Muslims as extremist terrorists? Those are the questions I find interesting.

Ahh, my friend I see suffrage as different then feminism. Motive is the difference between them. I see human then woman, Feminists see just the opposite as do their counterpart males.They see themselves as males before being human. To me there lies an important difference. Not all or even most are radical. When did Suffragette become thought of as feminist?

P.S. I am not female on the job in my eyes, I am human. My boss did not see it that way at first.

Moreno

I didn’t say radical, I said different.

No arguments here.

I have no idea if my sampling of youtube videos is representative. However, I do remember two of them featuring women who were proud to wear the banner of “feminist” but distanced themselves from radical militant “angry” feminism. This is probably what you’re talking about.

These women still scare me though. I’d be very nervous about saying the wrong thing around them

Conservatives and liberals, maybe. Military men, most definitely. Frats? I’m going to bet it’s the same in sororities.

Yes, in practice we see the greater impact coming from male chauvinism. But my point was that we shouldn’t treat this as a universal principle which would say that female chauvinism is in principle less dangerous than male chauvinism.

Kriswest

I always like to think so. For every talent that I hear women have, I always react by thinking “there’s got to be something us men have that equals us out”. I could never come up with a definitive argument to prove it though.

Statistics. There’s always going to be a margin of fanatics and biggots in any group.

I agree. But why do you think it gets that way–the nit-picking I mean? Who takes the garbage out is such a trivial matter. Why does it bug us so?

captain

Oh, to Hell with you. Thanks for the well wishes.

AnitaS

I only conflate the two because these women conflate the two. I have no idea if they make the distinction between moderate feminism and radical feminism. They simply reject the label.

I agree. I think most people identify an “ism” not with the technical dictionary definition but with they way it presents itself in public, or at least its reputation. I think women are tending towards rejecting the label “feminist” because it is all too often being associated with “feminazi”.

There’s also an argument that comes up a few times in the youtube videos I’ve visited which says that the term “feminist” is useless because any feminist who truly believes in equality and fairness between the sexes is a humanist–that is, one who believes in upholding the rights and freedoms of all people–so what’s the point of focusing on just one of the sexes? Why be a “feminist” when you’re really a “humanist”? That’s the argument anyway.

It’s just the way trends go, I guess. I don’t give much credence to conspiracy theories–as if some group feminist-haters gathered around a table behind closed doors and decided how they were going to ruin things for the feminist movement. A whole number of reason run through my head as to why the trend is going in the direction it is current going today. One reason might be that the extreme feminists among the feminist group were giving the whole group a bad name with their male-slandering and stay-at-home-mom slandering rhetoric, and so the rejection of the label by many women ensued, and only after that the distinction started to be drawn between moderate feminism and radical feminism. In other words, it’s not that people are lumping the moderates together with the radicals, it’s that the moderates are separating themselves apart from a group that no one advertently “lumped” in the first place.

Gib, Males are stronger athletes, not better but, stronger. Men can kill easier and yet show more mercy and forgiveness. Good traits for a protector.
It might be statistics but I lean mostly to genetics. Kids raised the same way by the same parents, one can be a superego/fanatic etc.
Nit-picking is about defending territory, You don’t want people going through your house or posessions do you? Yet think how trivial that is. Its a kneejerk reaction. We should show patience and respect for this archaic trait. When I figured it out with my boss I also realized it would have been rude to make such a good man uncomfortable by talking about it. His generation is more comfortable with less talk more action. So I did. Figuring a person out always helps, it is polite and considerate.

In principle, I suppose not, though I tend to be more afraid of men with strange ideas than women with strange ideas, especially if I am physically near them or they have some kind of power. And still, men have more power.

But I’d be interested to hear how this works out in relation to your self-therapy. You and I may disagree about how radical most feminists are and what this means, etc. But basically we have some different ideas out there about men and women and power etc. How does tackling these ideas via youtube help you? How has it helped you already? What do you hope it will do for you?

Kriswest,

Yes, of course. Statistics is never a cause. It’s an outcome. A diversity of genes throughout the population, and a diversity of ways of being raised, results in the statistics we get in demographic surveys and the like.

Honestly, Kris, I don’t know what else there is besides genes and upbringing that determine our attitudes and behavior, and it’s never one without the other.

Yes, politeness and consideration go a long way–I’ve always been a strong believer in that–yet it always amazes me how we can condition ourselves to make such a big deal out of something which, from another perspective, seems so trivial.

Moreno

What do you mean?

Well, first of all, I was being semi-facetious when I called this “therapy”. But it’s true that I’ve always had a hang-up over the sexism issue, feeling that in some ways men are treated unfairly, but I’ve always been too afraid to say something in fear of getting my head chewed by a bunch of angry women.

What I’m doing now is forcing myself to dive headlong right into the issue. I’m hoping to get more facts as opposed to just my own made-up opinions, and get to know what others (men and women) truly think, and here I’m trying to engage myself in an actual discussion (putting it all out on the table for once in my life ).

I doubt this is actually going to “cure” my problem. I think I’ll always take issue with sexism until I see the day when no one is making offensive remarks about the other sex. But this is an opportunity for me to become more informed about facts and what others truly think, and to see if I can get this stuff out without getting my head chewed by women, and generally being able to say “there, I said it!” (even though I may not get the chance to say everything).

As far as I can tell everyone is treated pretty poorly. I think we have that as a baseline. The question is, are there patterns of treating unfairly that are more systematic and effective than others - as far as the weighing in on each sex. I think if you have more power over how things are, then you tend to bear more responsibility. Also if the consequences you mete out are harsher than those meted out by the other group, then you likely bear more of the blame. But anyone treating anyone like shit because of their category is doing something I dislike immensely.

That sounds good. I mean, you will not get some good sampling here, but the issues should trigger your thoughts and emotions and give you a lot to chew and evaluate and notice about your self.

I think it’s good if people make such remarks, actually, or it can be. I mean, if that is how you feel, then better to have it on the table. If it is on the table. Rather than being used to harden positions, blame others for your own problems, and so on. But consider, if one group DOES have some pattern of abuse or insane way of doing things or whatever else that is a real pattern - not just some unsupported stereotype - then it would make sense for one group to make offensive remarks about another group.

To take an extreme example, black slaves would not be being unfair for making negative generalizations about slave owners. Or German Jews about Nazis. So it does matter if there is a basis for the harsh remarks, even if the patterns are not so clear as my examples.

IOW I think a lot of people think that it just should be so that no one should make negative generalizations, because really we are all equally to blame and or no negative patterns can be pointed out. But that is rather unlikely.

What would it mean to you if men did in fact bear more responsibility for unfairness? What conclusions does that seem to lead to? Does it really lead to those conclusions?

Don’t get me wrong, Moreno, I’m not saying men are treated more unfairly than women. I think the balance is still in favor of men, and this is especially true when you take it to a global context. But as a man, when I hear things in the media and from women in person that are clearly sexist (“men are pigs”, “men are stupid”), I can’t help but to think this is hypocritical–I mean, we men are told by women how sexist we are and how we mistreat women and how we need to change, etc., and so when I hear women making sexist remarks, it makes me think “Well, if you’re going to turn around and just be sexist yourself after telling me how sexist I am, why should I not be sexist?”

I suppose, but it would have to be acceptable for everyone to put it on the table. I don’t think it’s like that now. On a talk show, if a woman says “men are pigs” everyone claps; if a man says “women are cows” he gets booed.

Perhaps not, but notice that “slave owner,” at least in 19th century America, is defined as a racist (or at least it follows from the term). Notice that a “Nazi” is defined as an anti-semite. “Man” is not defined as a misogynist. So I feel that it’s unwarranted to generalize from a group of sexist men (even if they are the majority) to all men. I feel I’m being lumped in with them when I know for fact I’m not sexist. I was raised to respect women, to treat them fairly, and I’ve always agreed with all the rhetoric about how a woman should be regarded as a human being with the same rights and needs as any other human being. So I hate the implication that follows from statements like “men are pigs”–namely, that I’m a pig.

For me, it would lead to the conclusion that whoever those men were who actually are responsible or treated women unfairly bear the burden of rectifying their damage, but not men as a group.

It’s funny or telling or both or neither, but I had assumed a long time ago you were a man - for who knows what reasons, perhaps you even implied or said it. Then I read the OP and thought, Oh, gib is a woman.

I think those are fairly useless quotes to find in the media. I mean that in the sense that I agree. That gives nothing and is a poor generalization. I can imaging contexts where they could be useful utterances, part of expressing what one feels and then, hopefully, getting into some specifics and experiences and eventually some nuance.

Well, we are in a transitional phase and a partial backlash phase. I don’t think we have reached a balance of power, so if, for example, men have more power (which I think they do) to make such utterances is more like bullying than when women do. I also get a slightlhy different vibe off the insults. Men are pigs I take as referring to what men do, but women are cows seems to be about what women are. I think, also, that men tend to also get praise for being pigs, at least from other men.

But in general I agree, it’s just you are going to see this as the balance shifts.

Sure, but would you really have blamed blacks if they generalized about whites or Jews did about Germans?

I think it depends on the context and intent and the process it is a part of.

Me too. I’ve been in environments where a number of women felt the need and likely had the need to make such utterances and act as if these generalizations were true or even universals. It confused me for a while because I could see it was a good thing for them, at least some of them, and in a sense true, certainly in the way it matched their lives, while at the same time being a kind of abuse for me and some other men. I realized that I don’t have to put up with what is useful for someone else. I don’t have to make it wrong, but I don’t have to and should not have to experience it. Kind of obvious, but it still took some time.

I agree.