Reforming Democracy

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:41 pm

Arminius wrote:The people don't have to be brainwashed, most of them believe it's real anyway. You may call it "brainwashing", I call it "influence" because influence is always there, but "brainwashing" is a very extreme form of all affects. You are influenced but usually not brainwashed by your boss (I hope so ). Party members are influenced but usually not brainwashed by their leadership. People are influenced but usually not brainwashed by their government, their media, ... and so on. This all depends on the societal system and its political system, especially the form of government; and if those systems are extreme, then the probability of brainwashing is very high.

So we have to ask whether the societal situation in the US, or elsewhere, even in the world ( ), is already extreme.


I don't think that makes a difference to my point--brainwashed, influenced--the point I was making was that it becomes real as soon as the people start fighting over the issues. But I get the feeling we're getting away from your original point: were you originally trying to say that the leaders create the issues initially at a time when the people don't actually have any issues to fight over, and then over time the people end up believing they need to fight over it?
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Re: Reforming Demography

Postby Arminius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:54 am

Uccisore wrote:....

That's because you are a member of a political party! A PARTY!

You are not interested in philosophy, you are interested in kaffee klatsch and some "ideals" of political parties. Okay, I see; so: good bye.

You and your political party and all other political parties support the global bureaucracy!

People "around you do not decide to have or refrain from having kids every day" because they "decide" according to what is regulated by the global institutions and "think" (!) it were their own "decision". There is a global bureaucracy that regulates anything and everything, and the "national states" have to implement what the global bureaucracy dictates (and it does dictate!). What you are saying, Uccisore, is nonsense, and you believe in this nonsense. Whether or not humans, especially Western humans, have children is determined by the global bureaucracy and the regulated markets. The people are not "free" - this is merely what your party leaders always say, have to say -, and there is no real democracy.

It is just your megalomania that makes you think people were "free" or have a "free will". Humans are not "free" and do not have a "free will". You are not "free"; no human is "free"; humans do not have a "free will", but merely a relative free will.

You are more influenced, affected, as you think.

My solution of the demographic problem leads to more market!
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby James S Saint » Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:00 am

Uccisore wrote:So there isn't really such a thing as socialists who believe practically the opposite of everything I do when it comes to economics, culture, and ethics, I've merely been tricked by (who, other conservatives I guess?) into thinking there is? What kind of absurdity is this?

Look, Arminius, you proposed a global beurocracy to dictate the terms under which every human being is allowed to reproduce. I think that's a terrible idea. Unless you want to admit that you don't really think these things, or you're a wizard who can peer into my mind and discern that I don't really disagree with you, there is a difference and it is real. I don't see how it's even up for dispute.

Do you believe in the management technique of subtly influencing the masses such as to get them to want for what you choose?
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:45 am

James S Saint wrote:Do you believe in the management technique of subtly influencing the masses such as to get them to want for what you choose?


Interestingly, I recall Ucci saying that this is exactly what the Marxists in your country are doing. So maybe the Democrats engineered this difference between conservatives and liberals by, strictly speaking, creating liberalism... but then conservatism would have to be a reaction to this on the part of the people, not a manufactured group to be pitted against the liberals.

I have to say however, that according to this theory, the master-minds behind this are not necessarily the Democrats themselves but the Marxists whom, Ucci tells us, are running the show ideologically from behind university pulpits. Marx died one and a half centuries ago; the current members of the Democratic party weren't even alive then. There's no reason to believe the current members of the Democratic party aren't just from the same population of citizens who were duped (brainwashed, influenced) by Marxists from an earlier generation, and as American citizens, fervently believed (possibly also because they were brainwashed) that America was a country in which anyone could enter politics and change the world for the better (as they understood "better") and so tried it out. Most likely, the truth is that the Democratic party has at least a few full blown (and secretive?) Marxists but I don't see how you could escape it being a mix of a whole bunch of different persuasions, personalities, ideologies, and agendas. Someone who merely wants to put in some form of public health care, for example, might join the Democratic party because, hey, if there's any party who'll support him in this agenda, it would be the Democrats. You don't need to be part of a secret Marxist plot in order to do that, you just need them backing you up (and possibly not even know they're Marxists).

One thing I've been meaning to ask Ucci is if he could relay some of his experiences with the professors he claims to have been taught by, the ones he says were examples of the outspoken Marxists dominating the universities in his country. <-- There, I did it. :)
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Arminius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:39 pm

James S Saint wrote:Do you believe in the management technique of subtly influencing the masses such as to get them to want for what you choose?

Probably his party has forbidden him to answer your question. Moreover, today there is party conference again.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:49 pm

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Do you believe in the management technique of subtly influencing the masses such as to get them to want for what you choose?

Probably his party has forbidden him to answer your question. Moreover, today there is party conference again.


I'm kind of insulted. Why don't you think I'm part of a political party?
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In fact, the idea that there's more differences between groups than there is between individuals is actually the fundamental racist idea.
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Here's a good rule of thumb for politics--attribute everything to stupidity unless you can prove malice.
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Re: Reforming Democracy (incl. Ochlocracy)

Postby Arminius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:57 pm

gib wrote:
Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Do you believe in the management technique of subtly influencing the masses such as to get them to want for what you choose?

Probably his party has forbidden him to answer your question. Moreover, today there is party conference again.


I'm kind of insulted. Why don't you think I'm part of a political party?

Do you really know that I think you're not a "part of a political party"?
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby zinnat » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:56 pm

I think that the defitions of the political ideologies are two much twisted in this thread.

Marx was not liberal by any streach of imagination. He was just the opposite. He believed in equality but equality is not liberalism. Capitilism is far more liberal than Marx, in the essence. One can make choice in the capitilism and democracy but not with Marx.

Socialism is liberal to the majority (average or poor). Capitilism is liberal to minority (rich and rare), though less than socialism. Thus, both are strict and liberal at the same time but to the different sections of the society. The crux of the issue lies in striking the right balance. Both extreames are dangerous thus should be avoided. An ideal government must be liberal when it is required but also strict too when it is required.

Leftist slightly misunderstand socialism. Socialism puts some burden on the citizen too, but those very people, who get benifit of the socialism, refuse to own their share of burden. They want that the government alone should own all the responsibilities and let them live freely as they like. Rightiest do not expect much from the government and do not want much interfere from it too.

People become socialist very easily if it is about receiving anything but become hardcore capitilst when it comes to giving something. An economically social becomes cultural capitilist when it comes to him. At that time, he does not want any interfere from the government.

Give me all what i want but do not ask me what i am doing with that.

That is the precise definition of a typical leftist or socialist nowdays. They have been forgotten that socialism deamds return gifts too from all the invitiees to the party.

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Arminius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:41 pm

zinnat13 wrote:Marx was not liberal by any streach of imagination. He was just the opposite.

That's right.

|_____ Thesis _____|_______ Antithesis _______|_____ Synthesis ______|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|___ Liberalism ___|_____ Egalitarianism ______|____ Fraternitism ____|
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|________________|_______ Socialism ________|_____ Globalism _____|
|________________|______ Communism _______|___________________|

This "isms" are totalitarianisms.
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Re: Reforming Democracy (incl. Ochlocracy)

Postby gib » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:59 pm

Arminius wrote:Do you really know that I think you're not a "part of a political party"?


Well, that's even more insulting. You think I'm a party member yet you only call out Ucci? [-(
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Re: Reforming Democracy (incl. Ochlocracy)

Postby Arminius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:08 pm

Have I ever said whether or not you are a member of a party?

Why do you always ask absurd questions, Gib?
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Re: Reforming Democracy (incl. Ochlocracy)

Postby Arminius » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:36 pm

By the way:

Gib wrote:"When people attempt to stop the ups and downs of the free market they also put restrictions on the solutions to problems."
- Eric_The_Pipe

A "free market" means an absolute free market. That's logical, even tautological. The "liberal humans" want a "free market". - Okay, here is one:

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When will the next "liberal" party conference start, Gib?
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Re: Reforming Democracy (incl. Ochlocracy)

Postby gib » Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:42 am

Arminius wrote:Have I ever said whether or not you are a member of a party?


Either way I'm insulted.

Arminius wrote:By the way:

Gib wrote:"When people attempt to stop the ups and downs of the free market they also put restrictions on the solutions to problems."
- Eric_The_Pipe

A "free market" means an absolute free market. That's logical, even tautological. The "liberal humans" want a "free market". - Okay, here is one:

Image Image

When will the next "liberal" party conference start, Gib?


That's a big croc.

Your question is a good one for Eric (it's his quote).

And do you understand what's meant by "liberal"?

...

(BTW, where do you get all your disturbing pics/videos?)
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Re: Reforming Democracy (incl. Ochlocracy)

Postby Arminius » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:06 am

Which "videos" do you mean, Gib?

And do you understand what's meant by "liberal"?
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Uccisore » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:08 am

James S Saint wrote:Do you believe in the management technique of subtly influencing the masses such as to get them to want for what you choose?


Except for the 'subtle' part, yeah. Seems to me that all institutions of civil society from The Roman Catholic Church to the Boy Scouts do that, taken broadly. That I believe such institutions are important and good is why I'm a conservative and not a libertarian I suppose. That I prefer organizations that don't have the legal power to tax, imprison or execute dissenters is why I'm not a liberal. Do you mean it in some more sinister way that doesn't apply as broadly as what I describe? The good instututions that do this sort of thing are straightforward about their goals, and are working for the good of the people they are influencing.
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Re: Reforming Democracy (incl. Ochlocracy)

Postby gib » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:16 am

Arminius wrote:Which "videos" do you mean, Gib?


these
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Arminius » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:59 am

For example here and here. And they are not disturbing because they are very important, Gib.

B.t.w: Why are you insulted, boy? Is that the reason why you are compelled to insult? Are you a member of a party?
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:38 am

Uccisore wrote:Except for the 'subtle' part, yeah. Seems to me that all institutions of civil society from The Roman Catholic Church to the Boy Scouts do that, taken broadly. That I believe such institutions are important and good is why I'm a conservative and not a libertarian I suppose. That I prefer organizations that don't have the legal power to tax, imprison or execute dissenters is why I'm not a liberal. Do you mean it in some more sinister way that doesn't apply as broadly as what I describe? The good institutions that do this sort of thing are straightforward about their goals, and are working for the good of the people they are influencing.

By "subtle", I mean influence that is unknown to the person, thereby causing their will to become what the influencer wanted without the person knowing why or who. Unconscious, unaware influence is more commonly known as "hypnosis".

A young child has no choice but to be influenced by things without his awareness. Atheists complain that churches do that intentionally (as though governments don't). Propaganda is specifically aimed at that purpose.

For a democracy, or any democratic assembly such as a simple jury, to function free of coercion, the members must be free of subtle influence. A governance trying to obtain and maintain complete control is too tempted to avoid engaging in subtle influence. Just about all politics these days is entirely a competition of subtle influence. The media does nothing else. An unaware populous is preferred by totalitarian governance, "liberal/communistic/socialistic". And thus the democratic process is dysfunctional.

If there is any use in trying to "reform democracy", it would have to entail a freedom from subtle, hypnotic influences, enhancing public awareness rather than media subterfuge and mainstream propaganda. That is why the media in the USA was to be free and uncontrolled in the USA. Unfortunately, in the USA, media is not at all free, nor film making or school teaching. Thus in the USA, there isn't anything close to true democracy, but rather merely the attempt to be the greater devil of influence (just as Europe was before constitutionalism).

Uccisore wrote: So there isn't really such a thing as socialists who believe practically the opposite of everything I do when it comes to economics, culture, and ethics, I've merely been tricked by (who, other conservatives I guess?) into thinking there is? What kind of absurdity is this?

Look, Arminius, you proposed a global beurocracy to dictate the terms under which every human being is allowed to reproduce. I think that's a terrible idea. Unless you want to admit that you don't really think these things, or you're a wizard who can peer into my mind and discern that I don't really disagree with you, there is a difference and it is real. I don't see how it's even up for dispute.

People in the USA want for only what they have been subtly influenced into wanting, these days. And the intention is to make it far more so such that literally no one wants for anything that hasn't been designed before hand for them to want. And that includes a specific amount of dissidents to give the impression of uninfluenced will. That is what socialism is really all about, "the power to cause popular passion in chosen directions".

And thus reproduction choices, ARE being controlled. But a part of controlling them is giving the impression that they are not controlled and in need of more governing. The arguing between the Yin and Yang of Liberal vs Conservative, Democrat vs Republican, is a passion-engine used to feed and create a subtle "god". It is very largely mere distraction to allow for subtle influences to go undetected and thus effective.
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From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Tue Aug 19, 2014 3:59 am

Arminius wrote:For example here and here.


Yes, those are the same videos I linked to in my last post. Glad we're on the same page.

Arminius wrote:And they are not disturbing because they are very important, Gib.


Oh, they're disturbing all right--I had one of those it-can't-be-real moments when I watched the Swedish Feminist blow a couple of caps into the guy's skull.

Arminius wrote:B.t.w: Why are you insulted, boy? Is that the reason why you are compelled to insult? Are you a member of a party?


I went to a party the other day... it was pretty wild and crazy, got really hosed... does that make me a "member" of it?
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Re: Reforming Demography

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:08 pm

To start: I am sorry for the lengthy delay in response... School, both for my daughter and I restarted, it's been taking up my time...

Arminius wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:The solution of more restrictions ....
No!

My solution has nothing or merely less to do with restriction because the regulation does not work via state, but via market. Those family managers are not paid by the state, but by the market. The "restriction" you mentioned refers merely to the law of birth control, family planing, population control ("oh", you may think, "China!", but it is not like "China") and not to the regulation itself. China's regulation was and is part of the regulation by a dictatorship. We may wait until the Western countries will have become more dictatorial than China ever was; then this regulation will come anyway, but it will come with more restrictions, with more repressions, depressions, suppresions, ... and so on. Better we do it via market than dictators will do it instead of us and "for us" ( :wink: ) via dictatorship.
Ok, so if this is not passed as a law, that we simply get rid of the tax credits with for people with multiple children, then leave people along. I can live with this and I would see it as the free market, possibly, working to reduce the amount of children people have. If this is what you mean, I guess I'm on board.

If a law is passed, I'm against it...


Arminius wrote:It is possible to do it via market.

In this case referring to China means distracting from the subject, and referring only to the exceptional cases means the same because those problems are existent anyway and increase exponentially. So we have to find a solution for the problems, or the increased problems will come to us.

Again: My solution leads to less regulation, thus less state, thus less dicatorship because the gigantic and exponentially increasing costs that we have now for ignoring this problems would gradually disappear.
The only real problem I've seen is that you have not really explained clearly what you mean... Bogging us down in attempting to understand what you mean...
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:09 pm

gib wrote:I went to a party the other day... it was pretty wild and crazy, got really hosed... does that make me a "member" of it?
Yes, and that is a lot of innuendo... What kind of parties do you go to?
“Give a man a fish and he will ask for tartar sauce and French fries! Moreover, some politician who wants his vote will declare all these things to be among his ‘basic rights’” – An old saying rewritten by a follower of Thomas Sowell

"It's true that the bastards would win. But we shouldn't shut down a system just because the bastards win. A good system should be like a hamster wheel for bastards hooked up an electric generator. A well designed system is not one that prevents bastards from winning, but one that generates a lot of positive externalities from bastards trying to beat each other. And that's exactly what markets do. Markets entice bastards, they reward bastards, and the bastards love them, but as they operate they generate a lot of good that inadvertently benefits everyone else." - Carleas

The Newest EconPop: Economics of Demolition Man

The man, Thomas Sowell: Wealth, Poverty and Politics

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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Uccisore » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:38 pm

James S Saint wrote:By "subtle", I mean influence that is unknown to the person, thereby causing their will to become what the influencer wanted without the person knowing why or who. Unconscious, unaware influence is more commonly known as "hypnosis".


Oh, yeah. That tendency is my primary criticism of the left- they lie like dogs and deny what they really want because they need popular approval and their agenda wouldn't sell if it was straightforwardly presented.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:27 pm

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Yes, and that is a lot of innuendo... What kind of parties do you go to?


Mostly kids parties, actually. The only sense I got "hosed" was getting sprayed by the sprinklers.
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby Eric_The_Pipe » Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:37 pm

gib wrote:
Eric_The_Pipe wrote:Yes, and that is a lot of innuendo... What kind of parties do you go to?


Mostly kids parties, actually. The only sense I got "hosed" was getting sprayed by the sprinklers.
I think I might be willing to join The Kid Party... As long as their policies were along the Conservative lines. How does your Kid Party feel about the second amendment?
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Re: Reforming Democracy

Postby gib » Wed Aug 20, 2014 3:18 pm

Eric_The_Pipe wrote:I think I might be willing to join The Kid Party... As long as their policies were along the Conservative lines. How does your Kid Party feel about the second amendment?


Well, they do like their water pistols.
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