Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Yes.
11
52%
No.
9
43%
I don't know.
1
5%
 
Total votes : 21

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Jakob » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:04 am

Arminius wrote:"Germany's heavily populated Arab extreme groups"? Okay, there are also some in Germany, but most of them are in France, Belgium, Netherland, and of course England.

You can call it "West Eurpoe's heavily Arab extreme groups". Maybe that in the future some European countries will have more heavily Arab extreme groups than the current European countries I mentioned. This thread is about war in the future of Europe till 2050.

Maybe Europe should approach Russia. I am not sure, but what do you think about that?

There aren't a lot of Arabs in Germany, but they have a very large, well organized and well connected muslims population. We're talking about 4 million of the most ferocious fighters in the world - the Turks. I don't now if anyone here knows this but they are the largely descendant of Genghis Kahn and his warriors. They dominated the Middle East before WWI as the Ottomans for 700 years - which was, importantly, the declining age of Islam. It's glory days, it's science and art, were Arab. Turkey has vigor and culture, but isn't especially creative.

Turkish land mass is surely the best geographical terrain and location estate in the world. It borders three continents, two seas, and three of the worlds great cultural zones, and it unites much of that power in itself while being extremely particular, type-specific, 'pure' in blood and culture. It is highly impressive, and if there is to be a rational form of Islam, I am hopeful that it will be in the nation of Atatürk, one of the great secular politicians of our age. Holland also knows a large Turkish population, I am somewhat familiar with the culture. It is still classical in ethics, pride and honor. In order to see how this principle mixes well with their religion, one needs to see that Islam is a staff that can be held by anyone who chooses to pick it up, and survives that initial blasphemy so as to be able to declare himself a doer of gods will. "Render unto Caesar what is his" - Caesar and Jesus united into one - the current leader Erdogan has the tendency of acting a bit like an East Roman Caesar. It is hard to overestimate his reach into Germany. Will there be war?

France on the other hand is for a significant part Arab. Algerians, Moroccans, Tunisians - these aren't immigrants as the Turks are in Germany, but part of the old empire, properly French. The language is current in all three Arab nations, and in a lot of others as well. Frances best Nietzschean, Camus, is Algerian. He's not muslim, and in these nations there is a large and replenishing secular population. Tunisia is leading this process. To learn about how Islam influences the French Arabs, a very powerful piece of narrative is the film "Un Prophète". Not only did it turn out very prophetic (compare this and this) but it is the best film I'v ever seen that is not American. It's even as good as American films. I like plot driven, action packed psychological thrillers.
Last edited by Jakob on Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7192
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:17 am

Jacob, You are on the money. The Turks occupied most of Europe, south of Vienna and their base was Budapest. The horror they exacted on the Hungarian people is well documented for over 200 years. Suliman the Magnificent was the worst, and the Ottoman rule there was finally broken when he tried and failed to take Vienna, under Empress Maria Theresa but the Ottoman empire didn't cease to exist until the end of WW1. The book 'The stars of Eger' desribes in gruesome detail what went on, during that period.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Jakob » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:18 am

It's a bit disconcerting if you put it in that light. Germany is beginning to look rather provocative in it. In Vienna, I believe it was a Polish drunk bishop who came to the rescue with an army in the last moment. And yes, whoever it was that asked - Europe should absolutely approach Russia rather than alienate her. First of all all our economies suffer of it and second Crimea was theirs to begin with. They are our natural pan European allies. They are no longer metaphysical, but indestructible as always.

If we're really getting into predictions about the future, it's good to consider the not so distant past. The modern history of Europe has been known as the containment of Germany. Ever since the Romans attempted to colonize the continent, they found an indestructible, rather faceless and dangerously expansive jungle of will to power in the Germans, and Germany found the same jungle of will to power within itself, it was never whole, it was too willful to be whole, every part wanted to be the master too hard. Until 1871, the conclusion of the work of a politician who may be called with right more dangerous than Hitler; the difference between them being that he won his wars, which was the cause to the first world war. Otto Von Bismarck, the Prussian inventor of the perpetual war industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHj54dxRvK8

Germany, 1940.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7192
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:34 pm

Incidentally, not to sideline this interesting argument, a deeper derivitive of the mesapotomic migration of the Huns, based in ancient Sumaria, the Modern Magyars , according to Ahmad bin Rustah, c.930, a Persian explorer and geographer, are a race of


Turks. This may implicate the Turkish-Hungarian
wars, as some sort of ultra relevant irony.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:59 pm

Jakob wrote:It's a bit disconcerting if you put it in that light. Germany is beginning to look rather provocative in it. In Vienna, I believe it was a Polish drunk bishop who came to the rescue with an army in the last moment. And yes, whoever it was that asked
- Europe should absolutely approach Russia rather than alienate her. First of all all our economies suffer of it and second Crimea was theirs to begin with.
They are our natural pan European allies. They are
no longer metaphysical, but indestructible as always.

If we're really getting into predictions about the
future, it's good to consider the not so distant past.
The modern history of Europe has been known as the containment of Germany. Ever since the Romans
attempted to colonize the continent, they found an
indestructible, rather faceless and dangerously
expansive jungle of will to power in the Germans, and Germany found the same jungle of will to power within itself, it was never whole, it was too willful to
be whole, every part wanted to be the master too
hard. Until 1871, the conclusion of the work of a politician who may be called with right more dangerous than Hitler; the difference between them
being that he won his wars, which was the cause to
the first world war. Otto Von Bismarck, the Prussian inventor of the perpetual war industry.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHj54dxRvK8



Germany, 1940.




how interesting a strange a coincidence that alcohol makes in the dangerous turning points of history. Rasputin, and the Polish drunk bishop, even the king of Poland, have changed the course of history. No wonder Bacchus-Dionysus became the arbiter of wills and power. but alas, their staying power fueled on diminishing returns, earned themselves a reputation.
The will as representation trumps it's power. Maybe that's why the short staying power of the unity of individual wills.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Jakob » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:42 pm

Orb wrote:how interesting a strange a coincidence that alcohol makes in the dangerous turning points of history. Rasputin, and the Polish drunk bishop, even the king of Poland, have changed the course of history. No wonder Bacchus-Dionysus became the arbiter of wills and power. but alas, their staying power fueled on diminishing returns, earned themselves a reputation.
The will as representation trumps it's power. Maybe that's why the short staying power of the unity of individual wills.

You're on it my man.
The French man starts drinking wine halfway the afternoon. The Spaniard will have a beer at lunch. The Russian will have a sip of wodka before breakfast. The German will start drinking beer after his Rostbraten dinner. But the east front army of Hitler was one of wine-and-poetry intellectuals, tragic, nameless figures that 'went with the tides of fate'. I get this from the book "Myself strangely estranged" by a German foot soldier... I remember the image of frozen legs of corpses, chopped off an put in the pot to boil, to release the valuable Russian boot from the foot. Drink was the only solace.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7192
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Jakob » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:14 am

Orb wrote:Incidentally, not to sideline this interesting argument, a deeper derivitive of the mesapotomic migration of the Huns, based in ancient Sumaria, the Modern Magyars , according to Ahmad bin Rustah, c.930, a Persian explorer and geographer, are a race of


Turks. This may implicate the Turkish-Hungarian
wars, as some sort of ultra relevant irony.

That is a very powerful idea. Of course eastern Europe has not really been able to make its mark on the EU - and it wasn't clear to many what precisely these nations represent. But Hungary is the birthplace of many, many outstanding geniuses, and it harbors in its heart undoubtably all this bitter history that makes for wisdom and that we lack. Teach us, old imperial heart, the virtues of pre-Prussian Europe.

Have you watched that film on Bismarck? It is a fantastic depiction of the man. Bismarck was the father of German militarism, and the nazis did not need to falsify any historical aspect of the story to make this into one of the most convincing protagonist of political cinema I've seen.

What becomes apparent to me now is how the old Austrian-Hungarian empire held the noble German counterpart to France, and that Europe would have much more benefit from listening to Hungary and Austria, than from listening to Germany. Austria beautiful, calm, clear and independent. It is inextricably tied in with Italy, which is the center piece of any self-respecting European politics, and the arm of Europe's greatest intercontinental "sway" - the Church. The American media are in great fear of the pope. That is always interesting to notice. The point is that Europe led by Germany is too "grey". BMW can not be our highest accomplishment.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7192
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jan 15, 2015 1:53 am

It does not work without power. Therefore, Bismarck was right. If Europe will approach Russia, then it will also not work without power. Each country with major power could be called militaristic, thus not only Germany but also Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Belgium, Holland, England, the British Empire, the Russian Empire, the USA, the Soviet Union, and Russia. USA and Russia are still militaristic - very evil.

If Europe will approach Russia, then it will have to expect a confrontation as well. It will not be easy. And if the Europeans will make too many mistakes in that case, then they will get probably worse times than they have today.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:02 am

Arminus, there need not be antithetical approaches for Europe, of one resulting in either of the above scenarios. By power, You probably mean economic and military power. I have not checked the parity of the EU and the USA, in terms of the military, but it seems to me that France alone has enough nukes to establish some kind of detente, not including England. Conventionally it's unequal, but the risk of going nuclear is too great.

that is where the economic balance becomes the essential part of the relationship, and economic considerations, are based on aggressive behavior. Unless political considerations come into play into these economic trade wars in a way to consider the implications both in terms of displacing them into the military realm, all the gains made by the collapse of the Cold War, may again resurface. And the EU theatre is supported by NATO, dragging into the equation other powers. Germany, militarily is not considered a major player at this time, since it has no nuclear assets. It's approach to Russia, is tempered by this, and can not really afford to use trade as a weapon, only by reliance to The NATO security umbrella. Russia realizes this, and this is why political solutions are not sought in regional considerations, with Germany, as of yet. the Crimean action was a very surprising act, and a mistake on part of both Russia and the west, since it has loosened the international landscape, toward a more uncertain trust in treaties, and economic practices. At the same time, this singular act has not rose to the level, where a tit for tat action-reaction cannot set the stage for other rounds of negotiation and behind the door agreements.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:58 am

The worst solution would be an economically isolated Europe. Europe has not much natural resources but more and more decadent people. The best European factor of production has always been intelligence. But it has been vanishing sinde the dysgenic politics began. Another worst solution would - currently (!) - be a militarily isolated Europe, because the German government doesn't want nuclear weapons and the French government wants to have more nuclear weapons and not to share them with foreign governments, and that is too dangerous.

Russia (Siberia) has natural resources and nothing else; so it could be a partner of Europe, but an economical partnership without any military partnership can easily be destroyed. So the decision is difficult - but necessary. The NATO and the partnership between Europe and Russia are currently impossible. So the consequences are clear. The decision lacks.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:05 pm

Let's have an interim result for the question: „Will there be war in Europe before 2050?“

We have 67% for „yes“, 33% for „no“, and 0% for „I don't know“.

Please vote!
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Jakob » Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:14 pm

Orb wrote:Arminus, there need not be antithetical approaches for Europe, of one resulting in either of the above scenarios. By power, You probably mean economic and military power. I have not checked the parity of the EU and the USA, in terms of the military, but it seems to me that France alone has enough nukes to establish some kind of detente, not including England. Conventionally it's unequal, but the risk of going nuclear is too great.

Yes, the old military Europe still exists. France and England together form a guarantee. Given that England has already capitulated to Islam and privatized its nuclear industry into American companies, France is the political center of Europe and western civilization.

that is where the economic balance becomes the essential part of the relationship, and economic considerations, are based on aggressive behavior. Unless political considerations come into play into these economic trade wars in a way to consider the implications both in terms of displacing them into the military realm, all the gains made by the collapse of the Cold War, may again resurface. And the EU theatre is supported by NATO, dragging into the equation other powers. Germany, militarily is not considered a major player at this time, since it has no nuclear assets. It's approach to Russia, is tempered by this, and can not really afford to use trade as a weapon, only by reliance to The NATO security umbrella. Russia realizes this, and this is why political solutions are not sought in regional considerations, with Germany, as of yet. the Crimean action was a very surprising act, and a mistake on part of both Russia and the west, since it has loosened the international landscape, toward a more uncertain trust in treaties, and economic practices. At the same time, this singular act has not rose to the level, where a tit for tat action-reaction cannot set the stage for other rounds of negotiation and behind the door agreements.

It was a desperate last minute response to something which would otherwise have been irreparable damage. Crimea was under effective control of the Russians, as it has always been, and was only formally Ukrainian. Then the neo-nazi Nato coup d'Etat took hold, and Russia was forced to assert its influence. Nato was testing Russia.

The Romans already said of the Germans: they are good fighters, but cowardly in defeat. We see this now, in their response to the current events - they are taking all the most cowardly paths. That goes for both Crimea (where they facilitate in spreading lies about the plane that was brought down by Ukrainian forces) and for the shootings in Paris, where they actively take the side of the muslims, because they are afraid of interior unrest.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7192
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:04 pm

Jakob wrote:Yes, the old military Europe still exists.

No, it does not!

Jakob wrote:France and England together form a guarantee.

Nonsense!

Jakob wrote:Given that England has already capitulated to Islam and privatized its nuclear industry into American companies, France is the political center of Europe and western civilization.

France is the political "center of Europe"? That's nonsense too! And "western civlisation"? Also nonsense! France did not exist during the time of the Frankish Empire encompassing those countries which are later known as France, Germany, North Italy, and again later Austria, Switzerland, Holland, Belgium.

Look at this maps (and see where the center of Europe is and the Frankish Empire was!):

Image Image Image Image
Last edited by Arminius on Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Ecmandu » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:09 pm

Arminius wrote:
Jakob wrote:Yes, the old military Europe still exists.

No, it does not!

Jakob wrote:France and England together form a guarantee.

Nonsense!

Jakob wrote:Given that England has already capitulated to Islam and privatized its nuclear industry into American companies, France is the political center of Europe and western civilization.

France is the political Center of Europe? That's nonsense too! And western civlisation? Also nonsense! France did not exist during the time of the Frankish Empire encompassing those countries which are later known as France, Germany, North Italy, and again later Austria, Switzerland, Holland, Belgium.

Look at this maps (and see where the Center of Europe is and the Frankish Empire was!):

ImageImage


He means qualitatively, not quantitatively. It may be true, it may not, but that's not his argument.
Ecmandu
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 9536
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:22 am

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:31 pm

Ecmandu wrote:He means qualitatively, not quantitatively. It may be true, it may not, but that's not his argument.

What he said is quantitatively and qualitatively false.

First it have been the Germanic tribes, especially the Frankish, one of the Germanic tribes; then it was the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation; in the beginning of the global colonisation it was Spain with Portugal, then the Great Powers as the "Concert of Europe" - England, Germany (Austria and Prussia), France, Russia -, then another "Concert of Europe" with England, Germany, Austria-Hungary, France, Italy, Russia (1871-1917/'18), and today USA - unfortunately. Yes, unfortunately! The USA are too far away from Europe, they don't know much aboout Europe, they are economically an enemy (thus: not a partner!) and militarily not a partner but the boss.

And please don't forget the church!

The erliest empire of the Germanic tribe which we call the Franks had its territory in the region which is today: Northwest Germany and Holland. That was founded in the 3rd century.

Image
Last edited by Arminius on Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:27 pm

ARminius, That may be true, but Germany did not dominate the region, prior to AD 910,when the Magyars were finally defeated by the Germans in that year by King Otto, in the Hungarian German wars. After that, the Austrians took the helm for centuries until close to pre modern times. The Austrian and Spanish Hapsburgs dominated the continent.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:35 pm

Austrians are Germans. Have you forgotten that?

We are talking aboout history and not about political correctness of the early 21st century.

And the Habsburgs are a German royal dynasty.

Shall I show you a map again?

And the Austrian-Hungarian Empire you and somebody else mentioned is not the best example, if we want Europe to became safe, because that empire became more and more fragiile, and this fact was the trigger for the First World War.

Shall I tell you the historical facts?
Last edited by Arminius on Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:06 am

There can not be any European development without Germany. Try to learn from history! Most humans can not learn from history - unfortunately.

Either the Europeans wiil do it furthermore by the German leadership, especially in an economical sense, or they try to find a new "concert", for example: Germany, France, and Russia (but that is not easy).

Europe without Germany is dead!
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:21 am

Arminius wrote:Austrians are Germans. Have you forgotten that?

We are talking aboout history and not about political correctness of the early 21st century.










And the Habsburgs are a German royal dynasty.



Shall I show you a map again?



And the Austrian-Hungarian Empire you and
somebody else mentioned is not the best example, if
we want Europe to became safe, because that empire became more and more fragiile, and this fact was the trigger for the FIrst World War.



Shall I tell you the historical facts?


No, You do not have to. the fact is, what the Austrians were, does not apply to the modern Europe. They were Germans once, the similar way, the Hungarians were once Magyars and prior to that hords from Siberia. Who was what that long ago, does not relate to the present facts, except insofar as they effected the geopolitical dynamics of Europe.


Facts speak for themselves, and historicity does not able to teach on that basis,at times. Why? because not that people can not learn, but that supposed learning is done by only a backward look, not while amidst struggles and claims which usually at the time they are going on, are conflated and confusing. At times friend are taken as foes and vica versa. Hungary was allied with Germany all through both world wars, and suffered enormous casualties alongside the Germans, while Austria remained neutral. this is one real example where the lines are not drawn in well organized fashion, along predictable variances. I think You are right about the outbreak of WW1 , however, what is forgotten by most,mis, that the national revolutions of the eighteen hundreds produced a climate which led to a major upheaval in the beginning of the twentieth century. . it is the climate, more than some vague alignments which bring about potential stressors to resolve themselves. alignments are usually the products of sudden impulsive acts, to benifit the partners of such alliance. Another interesting example is, the sudden departure of Ribbentrop to Moscow to form the German Russian allience, on the eve of the attack on Poland, whose outcome and supposed betrayal is very well documented.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Jakob » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:44 am

Arminius wrote:There can not be any European development without Germany. Try to learn from history! Most humans can not learn from history - unfortunately.

Either the Europeans wiil do it furthermore by the German leadership, especially in an economical sense, or they try to find a new "concert", for example: Germany, France, and Russia (but that is not easy).

Europe without Germany is dead!

How could Europe ever be without Germany? That is of course beyond any for of possibility, and it is not what I propose. But the Germans are a complex people, especially if we count the Austrians. One side is highly intellectual, 'posh', imperial and a top-down vision of society. But the other is a tribal, work-ethic people that organizes by skill. I;m saying a Germany led by Prussian ethics is not beneficial to the rest of us. They are extremely selfish and aggressive. Merkel is a manager, she is admirable at her job but she is no 'statesman', has no oversight, is myopic to the detriment of southern Europe, which I contend is the most cultured part of the continent. The Austrians will agree. As a Dutchman it is embarrassing to me that the only man who has the sense to speak frankly about Islam, also calls Italy and Greece "garlic-countries" - there is a contempt from the north to the south that is not warranted, and isn't even actually felt. It's all pretense. Whenever a northener visits Italy, he is impressed and most pleased. On top of this Italy produces far more impressive valuable cultural goods, from pasta and sausage to Armani and Lamborghini that the Dutch can pride themselves on. "Gouda" as they call all of it in the alps. Anyway, I respect your angle to this debate, and it is perhaps true that we need to look at the deeper history of the peoples here. I am not sure how much of that is going to play into the politics of the coming time - this is a confrontation of two ideologies; the anarchic 'anyone who has read the koran can be the voice of life and death' ethics of Islam, and the radical state, imposed on the old Europe by Sun King, then the Guillotine, and finally, to complete the trinity, the conquering child Napoleon. The state of France looks inward. No one in France wants a small state. The state is good. Perhaps this is because it was first embodied by a symbolic sun-king, a Pharaoh. Within the republicanist secular state paradigm, France and America stand on different extremes.
Image
For behold, all acts of love and pleasure are my rituals
User avatar
Jakob
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7192
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 9:23 pm
Location: look at my suit

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:05 am

On the most basic level let us not forget that the Roma Empire came through the Holy Roman Empire, and this derivation directly attributed toward the Enlightenment in Italy. however, it is through Germany, that the neo Classic revival began as the form of Romanticism. Culturally, this revival would have been impossible without Germany. That this revival lead to seek the roots of it's transformative powers, the myth, unleashing upon the world this awesome and tragic power, presents the persona of German cultural enigma, whose mask, almost destroyed the world. this unmasking was such a sudden phenomena, that it took the world by wild surprise, the perceptive double power of the Dasein,
A critic said of Slojterdijk (not an American one), that his works are the other bookmark, the other end of which belongs to Heidegger. I mention this, in lieu of trying find the proper role for a postmodern role for Germany, in terms of it's intellectual course,rather than trying to find patterns within the historicity of an Heideggrian intentionality. things are obviously different in Germany today, although, some things do remain the same.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:52 am

Orb wrote:No, You do not have to. the fact is, what the Austrians were, does not apply to the modern Europe.

It does apply to the modern Europe - of course! Ask the Austrians themselves! The Austrians were and are Germans. It's only the current political correctness - thus: dicatatorship and propaganda - that wants you to beleive in lies.

Orb wrote:They were Germans once, the similar way, the Hungarians were once Magyars and prior to that hords from Siberia. Who was what that long ago, does not relate to the present facts, except insofar as they effected the geopolitical dynamics of Europe.

No, and you can't comprae the Hungarians with Austrians in that way. Have you herad of the "Deutscher Bund" ("German Federation")? It existed from 1815 to 1866 (German War between Prussia and Austria - itIs called German War!). Bot Austria and Prussia were members and had no problems with each other. That is not long ago. And shall I show you the map and the fotos of 1938? Austria came back to the Reich 1918, because the Austrians wanted it. You have to accept the historical facts as well as I have to.

Orb wrote:Hungary was allied with Germany all through both world wars, and suffered enormous casualties alongside the Germans, while Austria remained neutral.

Excuse me, but you have no idea. Austria was allied with Germany during the First World War and was part of Germany during the Second World war. Austria was not "neutral"!

Orb wrote:Another interesting example is, the sudden departure of Ribbentrop to Moscow to form the German Russian allience, on the eve of the attack on Poland, whose outcome and supposed betrayal is very well documented.

No, Poland had provoked that - that is also very well documented. And Russia wanted a revenche for the war with Poland in the early 1920's, when Poland misused the chaos of the soviet "revolution". So Stalin was very much interested in a occupation of Poland - that is also very well documented.

B.t.w.: Smaller nations are often more aggressive than the others. You should know that, Obe.

Jakob wrote:I;m saying a Germany led by Prussian ethics is not beneficial to the rest of us.

You do not know anything about the Prussian ethics.

Jakob wrote:They are extremely selfish and aggressive.

That is a lie.

Jakob wrote:Merkel is a manager, she is admirable at her job but she is no 'statesman', has no oversight, is myopic to the detriment of southern Europe, which I contend is the most cultured part of the continent.

But the global rulers and Bankers like Merkel very much![/quote]

Jakob wrote:The Austrians will agree.

No. They will not agree. I know it.

Jakob wrote:"Gouda" as they call all of it in the alps.

Everywhere in Germany they say "Gouda" to that Dutch cheese. The whole Old Europe - the Occident (Abendland) - is a culture of cheese. Some are known in the whole world, some not, and the latter are not worse than the others.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Arminius » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:30 am

Currently, there are horrible and very much hysteric situations in the whole Occident. Sometime I think I can smell that war is coming.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5732
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:11 am

Arminius, You are right but only about Austria. In the first world war, they went along for the ride, but in the second they were Anschluss-ed, and Poland was attacked soon after. I really have no disagreement here, except that what determined the course of
European politics in the first half of the 20th century were political ideological testing, and alliances were formed on basis of territorial expansion, using
ideology as a prop. Deutch land Über Alles became a
rallying cry to further territorial expansion, but it was an ideological struggle. At the present time, that process has been replaced by the unification of the
EU, and dominance by Germany would have achieved
by the pen, that war could not achieve. However, here, the economic superiority, rather then the military,has become the means by which , this can
be accomplished, and it is with this in mind, that the
approach toward Russia has to be seen. Economically,Germany is no match for Russia, and
this is the key, to the new Russio-German
relationship. They say, in A Capitalistic system, one
would even sell his grandmother to get a fair trade, and ideology takes a back seat to commerce. The Russians are not yet quite convinced, although their
handling of the Islamic struggle, they can not but

Share the Continent's and even the U.S. stance, since they too have their Chechnya Muslim problem. So
there is a constant shift of alliances, depending on
the focus of the struggle, whether it be military, economic, or ideological.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Will there be war in Europe before 2050?

Postby Orbie » Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:26 am

Correction: in the next to the last paragraph, the wordage should read 'Russia is no match for Germany'
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

PreviousNext

Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users