Unity rally in Paris

Germany makes itself strong for this “everything” (death, nothing, as you say) and France is making a stand against something very vile.

Diekon / James - I had written a lengthy posts with examples of how vastly different this already is from what has happened in other nations the past decade and a half. But then I realized that is not the point. Indeed it may be unwise to cheer too much too early on. The point is that this is the moment to come into action.

It seems like we all more or less think the same, about the weakness that our culture has shown. You are not my enemies, and I will not attack you. I will invite you to drop the pessimism and embrace this momentum. All intelligent humans with a voice matter right now. And it matters a great deal in which direction you are leaning. The point is indeed to alter our own culture, to break its nihilism. Whatever virtues and powers you were given, evoke them now.

Diekon - much like westerners emotionally condone the killing of religious child abusers, there will hardly be a muslim who does not condone in his heart the killing or severe punishment of those who offend the prophet. It is impossible to overestimate the effect of a tight knit weaponized religious community on the heart and mind of a child. Once a world-denouncing priest gets hold of a child, the way back to sanity is long and lonely and will usually be avoided.

The editor of Charlie Hebdo did not have children. His wife wanted them, but he always knew he was going to be killed like this. These weren’t nihilists, nor is the outrage now a flash in the pan. Very many people are very happy to put their life on the line in this great global battle for the free mind, that has been postponed for as long as it could. This is what it means to self-value: to be ready to die for your values. And this is the only way to be whole.

To place oneself above those who now rally, to feel wiser from a perspective of pessimism, is neither virtuous nor truthful. It’s protecting oneself from another disappointment. But the disappointment you’re actually risking is to be a cynical bystander like Obama, marginalizing yourself from the “élan vital” that is now taking hold of Europe and which might, I honestly can’t tell from here, take hold in America as well. If that happens, this is going to be a century to remember.

Jacob, i think it’s strange that you think fighting for freedom of speech and mind is of the upmost importance right now. There never has been a time when there was more freedom of speech, and freedom of information and freedom of everything… .

A lot of your discours is based on hope it seems, which is fine i guess… but i’d like to think that we can learn something from history and should take a wider view rather than relying on mere hope. Hope, and the nice ideals it gives birth to, sometimes do more harm than good.

In a way i’m also hopefull though, and not all that cynical as you might think, because i think we are coming into an age where there is finally enough awareness and knowledge of this allready long human history, that we can come up with something more grounded in that history. Western freedoms may be a part of that, but i don’t think it’s the end all.

Diekon, you’ve not understood.
I recommend you interpret what I actually wrote, not try to interpret me in the frame of what you hear in the streets and your preferred media outlets.

This is still a philosophy board.

A lot of your discours is built on pessimism and apathy. I get that you do not see how the problems in the world are concentrated in this attack. They are not, and I don’t claim that they are. But there are enormous problems and they are all related.

If you think there is a lot of freedom of expression now, you’re mistaken. Even the BBC had a prohibition of depiction of Mohamet, which was revoked after the attack. One of the greatest problem is our estrangement from Russia. The USA has become Europe’s enemy by trying to destroy the European relations. The US is part of this very same problem, and Obama’s absence from Paris is very significant.

We can do this without the USA, that is one of the greatly significant messages here.
The main problem is religion and idiocy. These are as wide spread now as they were in the Middle Ages. France, however, is no America. America as it behaves now is a large part of the problem.

I’ll say it again. We have never had more freedom of speech than now. Have you not seen all the trash people spread every day all over the interwebs? Doesn’t seem like all those people have the feeling they should repress their opinions. Seriously, compare today with any other time for some perspective on the issue.

You don’t know why Obama wasn’t there… you make an assumption. You generally seem to make to much assumptions. Philosophy is, among other things, about making as few assumptions as possible. Since this is still a philosophy board, maybe we should try to make less assumptions?

There is very little freedom of expression, in fact, most public expression is carefully worded and examined before being expressed, as there is very little truth left in religion today, its distortions are used as a tool to encourage people to be ignorant. A private agenda is festering and being carefully nurtured by those who will eventually have total control of most of us.

To see France rise up in the face of this is to be applauded.

@ Those who want to find scapegoats.

Trying to drive a peg into the good relationship between France and Germany (for example by using rhetoric with false clichès) does not help to solve the problems but adds many more problems.

Okay, the relationship between Merkel and Hollande is not as good as it was between Kohl and Mitterand or Schmidt and Giscard d’Estaing or Adenauer and de Gaulle; but the relationship between Merkel and Hollande is - of course - not only caused by Merkel but also by Hollande; both are not really qualified for the current problems. France is bankrupt and has its “force de frappe” (which is eventually useless, at least in the case of bankrupty), and the situation in Germany is just the reverse one. Maybe Germany should search for another “best friend”, but maybe it would be better, if Germany and France found back to their good relationship of the past.

If you want to find scapegoats, then you will probably find some in your bedroom!

Has it ever been otherwise with institutionalised religions? If anything religion never had less influence over a what is a largely secularised western europe.

And who are those who are scheming to have total control over us? There is no one predominant influence that has replaced religion, that is precisly the point. It’s rather a myriad of influences pulling in different directions right now. Is that good, bad? I don’t know, i kind of like the freedom to choose whatever. But i’m used to it and have no real reference, i’m a product of my time. Looming in the distance is allways the idea that Europe will continue te be on the decline if it doesn’t pull it’s shit together soon. How will it be able to compete for example with the likes of China if you see the centrality of governement there?

You’ve made the assumption again and again that this is about the banal generality called ‘freedom of speech’. It is about a collision of different cultures, about specific prohibitions imposed on the minds of children. Stop with the straw men please. Address the actual, particular situation and stop speaking in generalities and 'you don’t know’s.

Shield-maiden addresses the larger point, but this is impossible to address if you can not begin to think in particulars, and drop the universals. Look at the specific freedoms we have and the specific fears imposed on us. Freedom of speech is easy to tolerate if a few important exceptions are made.

Sure, we should placate the Germans…
Where did we hear this before.

I suppose your idea of a better relationship is to continue begging and kneeling to Germany. If so you understand even less of Prussian ethics than I do, as I at least do not condone simply giving away your national culture because another country is richer.

No, the solution is not to continue placating Merkel. The solution is forcing her to finally take the responsibility of a European leader.
Surely, Hollande is a weakling, a worthless political leader. The unity rally had of course nothing to do with any heads of state. The power of it was its particular, not its general character as ‘march for freedom of expression’. Such marches, as held in countries like Germany or Holland, are invariably pathetic. Here, it was not. That is the crucial difference.

I’ve had Germans, but never French in my bedroom - that much is true.

Gee and I thought the military/industrial complex encouraged two wars (never won) that killed hundreds of thousands displaced millions, cost billions, and led to the continued destabilisation of the entire region: led to the inception of the Arab Spring, the rise of ISIL and in turn the loss of personal privacy at home in the USA.

Yes, Jacob you do not know what it was about. Adress the particular situation? There were 1.5 million people there. Those people were not of one hive mind. There were people on the left standing up for our western liberties, there were people from the middle who tought they needed to give a signal to reconcile and unify the country. There were people that think it’s not nice to kill people and also people attending for plain racist motives, anti-islamist and people supporting the Front National… and there were people who tought they needed to tag allong because ‘something important’ was going on.

Now the battle for the meaning of it all, the interpretations, starts… who gets to recuperate it politically? You have one politically inspired interpretation… that it’s about the collision of western culture and Islam, which is a bit ironic considering all the people stumbling over each other to stress that this was NOT against the majority of muslims or against the islamic religion in general. And it’s all the more ironic considering the attack was against leftist Charly Hebdo.

A few important exceptions to freedom of speech… What about freedom of religion? That gives us the right to impose specific prohibitions on the minds of our children. A little tweaking won’t suffice, you need to butcher the right if you want to do something about that.

Why do you think there is irony here?

I agree.

Are you shocked ( ) ?

You suppose wrongly. And you have no idea of Prussian ethics. And note: Merkel is not a Prussian!

I do not know what you mean by that. Is it - again a part of your agitation?

That is not a crucial difference. Okay, vote for France, thus for more poverty, for more poverty to more people, for more poverty to all people.

The Germans did not want the Euro! And if there were no Euro, then everything / anything would not be alright, but the Euro-countries would have less problems.
The Germans did not want the Euro, so they are not guilty. The German government has nothing to do with the German people.
But most of the other countries which have the Euro wanted the Euro, also and especially France wanted the Euro.

It seems that you have also no idea of economics.

If you asked them, they would say that their value is multiculturalism, and they are defending it, but you’re right, the consequence of multiculturalism is always abusing/insulting your own nation’s ‘salt of the earth’ types in order to promote the values of whatever is exotic and foreign. In America, the anti-culture assassins use Immigration and Ellis Island to defend themselves, Germans use the holocaust, I dunno what the French use. I hope the world wakes the fuck up.

Because it’s the kind of interpretation the right side of the political spectrum would want to put forth… “Je suis Charlie”, “Unity” rally :-" .

We should demonstrate for freedom - every day, or for example every Monday. In Germany there are many of such demonstrations for freedom (just: every Monday in the cities, and their are many cities in Germany), but the media does not report, does not say anything about that. But the media does hysterically report the reverse, thus the media lies: “They are all Nazis”, although everyone knows that there are no Nazis at all. The government, the secret sevrice and - of course - the media produce “Nazis” in order to control the people. Some ILP members do the same.

The French use their evil colonisation.

Some points those springs to the mind -

I tend to slightly agree with the Jacob that there is some dignity left in the France, in comparison to other western countries. Having said that, i do not see the reaction of the people of the France as mature enough.

They showed solidarity and supported free speech. That is fine but i do not think that they realized the limits of free speech.

Free speech does not include mocking, abusing or insulting. One is allowed only to the extent of discussion of good and bad sides of anything. The limit ends here.

As far as people of France condemned killing of journalists, i agree with that. That is certainly overreaction on the part of extremists and is neither acceptable nor rational by any stretch of imagination. But, on the other hand, making a joke of a founder of a religion is not acceptable either. It is sad that people of France liked to condemn only one wrongdoing, not the both.

I think that the reaction of the pope is far mature when he commented on the incident - If a friend “says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him.” This is the right and balanced approach.

A mother is mother for her children, even if she is cuckold. Any second person can criticize her for that. That is fine. But, a second person should not send her photos of having sex with others to her children. That is insult and unacceptable too. People should realize this difference and keep that in the back of their minds while criticizing anyone.

If one is not ready to accept physical violence, he should refrain himself from intellectual violence too, in the first place.

Secondly, let me ask a question to the people who came in that rally.

France ban burkas but how that does not restrict individual liberty? If any woman wants to wear burka, what on the earth it has to do with other people or a nation? And, why the same supporters of free speech and individual liberty did not stand for that too in the same way?

with love,
sanjay

It does and it doesn’t… it’s another one of those instances where you run into contradiction with western liberties. At face value it does restict a person to choose, right. But looking a little bit further, the Burka is seen as a symbol of female oppression. Because of social and religious pressures in muslim enviroments, muslim girls are forced to wear burkas and hide themselves. Banning Burka’s wants to counter that social pressure and give them back their freedom… by restricting their freedom.

Diekon wrote:

It is interesting you bring this up. It is not unreasonable to accept that the Vatican could turn America into a fascist state with the help of those who have loyalty to the Pope, not the people in their countries. The illegal immigration of millions of Mexicans and South Americans crossing the U.S. border provides a population easily manipulated by the teachings of the Vatican hierarchy. The Roman Catholic Church is enjoying a return to prominence and in coalition with other churches, could effortlessly perpetrate religious oppression. To be able to do this, the Vatican could use these millions of third world countries as a voting base to blindly follow the Pope and with the union of church and state, this would eventually result in widespread religious oppression.

I actually don’t mind the idea of multiculturalism but it has been kidnapped and poisoned by the radical liberals to mean allowing other cultures to step over you and refusing to criticize foreign ideas and culture due to fear of being called “racist”, “bigoted” and other terms leftists use to demonize others.

However, there’s also a double-standard present in most right-wing Christians where it is fine to criticize and parody other cultures and religions (freedom of speech hurr durr), but criticizing and parodying Christianity is a sin, should not be allowed, is offensive etc.