France has a storied history as a force of social change going back centuries. In recent times though France has been regarded negatively, as a dying and irrelevant country. But this rally perhaps inspires a ray of hope that a little bit of that magic still lives in l’esprit du France. Revolutions. Social criticism. A hotbed of ideas and emotion. A relevant bastion of human spirit, guiding, sharing, creating. Let’s hope this is a French cultural Renaissance.
I don’t know what will happen tomorrow. The fact remains nations are torn, ideologies are firmly set against each other, religious doctrines stand in direct opposition and are colliding in real world issues of land and liberty. Even with the world leaders walking arm and arm, this rally says more about the spirit of France and Muslims qua French citizens, the French ethos, than it does about hope for any change globally. or could it be a catalyst for a new era, or solved paradoxes like the perennial conflicts in Israel? Will we wake up a week from now and laugh at such idealism?
France has the power to inspire in a way that no other culture has. Perhaps there is something in the air in France that is the elusive ingredient (baked into the baguettes?) that will allow peaceful, true Muslims to speak loudly against their deranged element in a way that they haven’t been able to. Will France finally recognize itself as a sleeping giant, the poetic spirit and flawed but beautiful voice of our species?
France, a weary world turns its eyes to you. Don’t blow it. This is your time.
Yes, France is the only nation in the world has responded maturely to a terrorist attack. I have never seen this before and I suddenly turned from a political cynic to - a quite happy person who does not know what to think yet. This was a game changer. Not all peoples are apathetic and already enslaved. I loved the country before, but it’s apparently actually the greatest country on Earth. The US had it’s brief spell of greatness, now it needs to look hard at its moral progenitor.
Le Monde opened, day after the rally, headed “Worried about a French Patriot Act” with the very wise statement that times like this, such emotional unity, bring the greatest danger to the rationality of the state. In this, the country’s main paper addressed the second greatest danger at play here, where the first (Islam itself) was already being addressed.
It is very remarkable that these two dangers to reason can be confronted both at once - as indeed they operate together, Islamic violent idiocy and the security state. France wants neither of these.
The US has created Islamic radicalism in a dozen countries, US media censor hard truths about Islamic in the name of ‘freedom of religion’ even now - the US has absolutely zero right to speak from a position of morality in this debate. It needs to listen.
France is doing the exact same thing after their big attack that the U.S. did after 9/11, waving flags, singing songs, chanting “Never again” and crossing the aisle. And now here the US sits, a few years later, calling Islamic terrorist attacks ‘incidents’ to avoid offending Muslims, and not bothering to show up when our allies go through the same thing- we learned that wretched behavior from Western Europe, not the other way around.
I give 8 months before the mainstream French view is to blame themselves for the Charlie Hebdo attack, and to advocate looking for ways to have ‘meaningful dialog’ with the rabid dog in their midst. The hard left is simply giving the proles their day of flag waving before they go back to the usual pattern of blaming white people for everything brown people do.
France is not a puritanical, religion obsessed country. Also, the hard left is who got attacked. You’re reading this one wrong.
And naturally the actual attacks pale in comparison to what happened to New York. There is very little I see in common. What was clear after 9/11 was: confusion, and desperate patriotism. Here, there isn’t a lot of confusion, and no despair. The French have been the only nation banning burqa’s so far, and they will certainly not become more lenient to them now. France never sunk to their knees facing Islam like the US, Holland or Britain or Germany did and do - even though they deal with so much of it.
The US is young, had not yet had its first crisis of identity. France has already lived and seen so much, and proven to itself to be resilient to all of it, even if often at the last moment. I am sure that if the US people will now take the French as an example, there is hope for your republican principle. Of course it is hardly sure that they will. Obama did not come because he did not expect that the French people would show themselves like this. He expected them to be beaten down and in shock. Instead, he was absent from the pivotal celebration of our time.
This was a symbolic failure, and it will have its consequences - the pending consequences of the horrendous living failure that it became after 9/11. The cultural reign of America has ended.
Germany is reviving its fascist days with Frau Merkel almost criminalizing the non violent peoples protests against Islamic fascism being smuggled into the country under the banner of economy. They have learned little, it seems. I am disappointed in the Germans, though my hope for them was tenuous and careful. They are not to be masters of Europe after all - a workers people led by an economist who has no conception of culture, and who is blindly and unhesitatingly driving the cradle of western civilization into the ground.
The hard left are always the ones that get attacked when journalists and so on are beheaded, homosexuals are hung, and we are threatened because of our 'permissive lifestyle'. That doesn't change anything, it simply makes it more ironic.
I think that’s a false characterization born of you trying to force a political spin. The American response to 9/11 was confidence, songs, flag waving, and all this exact same shit. The confusion and desperation came a little later, when it came time to do something about it and the left’s love affair with American came to an end, primarily due to their being a Republican in the Big Chair.
I hope that’s true. And yet, AP won’t show any of the comics that ‘caused’ the attacks. If this leads to France stopping the flow of radicals into their country and ditching this absurd multiculturalism that is killing the west, that would be awesome, and maybe something will actually change. But I predict this degenerating into more white guilt and “what did we do to deserve this” hand wringing.
Oh come on, Civil War.
That may be the one thing I agree with Obama about, not that I think he should have avoided the event. I still expect the French to come out of this beaten down, and a parade isn’t going to change my mind. I want to see what they DO, what legislation they pass.
Still reeling from the Holocaust. They simply can’t endorse any sort of position that sounds like “That kind of person is bad”, whether the kind of person in question are perverts or suicide bombers.
Fair enough when it comes to the US and on Germany. Still it is a typically German response, and fascist in its own right. The government proactively organizes and sponsors rally’s to counter a certain flank of the population, and uses law to give one preference and mark the other ‘dark’. Not “for freedom” but “against Islamophobia” - which means “against having your values”. Reeling perhaps, but also still the same people. I think the French deseve a bit more credit - they more or less invented secular politics, and they have been consistently passing and enforcing religion-containing laws even as the rest of the world was scolding them. They’ve been known for taking quite radical measures as well.
For America I see the civil war a formation of identity, and the current breakdown the first crisis. In the Civil War, the virtue of the sate was formed. This situation is the cause/effect of the loss of virtue. (as self perceived, as well as perceived by the outside)
France has been regarded as a dying and irrelevant country because it is decaying and dying. Go there for a while and you will see. Ask people who went there and they will tell you…
Houllebecq, regarded as the best french writer of his generation, a degenerate human being if there ever was one, speculates in his new novel that western culture, that is void of meaning, will adapt muslim ideology because that at least still asserts something.
I think he is spot on with his analysis of french, and more general, western culture. It has no content, it doesn’t really assert anything positive. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, democracy, multiculturalism and values of the like… only enable different value-systems to live next to eachother (if it succeeds in that goal is another matter). They are what i would call only meta-values. But if that is the full extend of western culture (we certainly do not believe in god anymore), we don’t really believe in anything.
There is a flare of pro freedom of speech sentiments now, as is to be expected with events like that, but freedom of speech hardly is ‘the’ problem in France, everybody says anything he wants anyway and nobody cares. If France is to become relevant again, i don’t think it will be because of it becoming the champion of those freedoms yet again. But rather because, as the oldest country in that tradition (and the most psychologically aware), it will be the first to ‘fall’ and realise where it leads. And the mere presence of Islam is a constant reminder.
Interesting times indeed. Maybe the french cultural renaissance will be one of real enlightenment this time, a culture inspired by science and shaped by art? Maybe…
You guys are mistaken, Diekon and James. America has proven it stands for nothing - so has Belgium, that is clear - but France has never stood for nothing. Ive read Houellebecq (in French - and I visit France very often) and France is the only nation that has a writer like this, who calls things as they are. In Holland that has become unthinkable, but the French reaction is making ripples and causing people to move forward against Islam even here. It’s quite shameful to ignore a joyful political rally of 1.5 million citizens, anyone who thinks that ‘stands for nothing’ is evidently very, very far removed from being able to say anything about politics, democracy or values in general.
Apathy and self-distrust are Europe’s problems. You are propagating that problem. But not everyone is as weak as to be so blind and irresponsible as taking that path right now.
I won’t argue that France IS that way, merely that the West is headed that way, trying to stand for everything and thus nothing. Along the way, a great many futile efforts are made to stand up and be proud. But pride born in pretense is too weak to stand for long. Eventually when life is sufficiently threatened, the wavering and chaotic gives in to the rigid and orderly, regardless of its make and reasoning.
The significance of it is that it’s the flavor of the day. Something going viral doesn’t make it all that more significant. Look at the arab spring for example, lots of people jumped on that bandwagon, and heralted it as the islamic enlightenment. What is left of it now? Revolution is the easy part, you just have stoke the flames at the right time… lasting change is something else alltogether.
Only few cared about Charly Hebdo and the values they stood for a few weeks ago, now everybody is Charly. Whatever. I’m not saying it doesn’t mean anything, terrorism should be dealt with, but they are only a fringe group even in Islam. I’m saying France and Europe have bigger problems, rooted in our own culture. Apathy yes. Long term Islam may be not such a bad thing if it forces Europe to reëvaluate and define what it stands for.
Germany makes itself strong for this “everything” (death, nothing, as you say) and France is making a stand against something very vile.
Diekon / James - I had written a lengthy posts with examples of how vastly different this already is from what has happened in other nations the past decade and a half. But then I realized that is not the point. Indeed it may be unwise to cheer too much too early on. The point is that this is the moment to come into action.
It seems like we all more or less think the same, about the weakness that our culture has shown. You are not my enemies, and I will not attack you. I will invite you to drop the pessimism and embrace this momentum. All intelligent humans with a voice matter right now. And it matters a great deal in which direction you are leaning. The point is indeed to alter our own culture, to break its nihilism. Whatever virtues and powers you were given, evoke them now.
Diekon - much like westerners emotionally condone the killing of religious child abusers, there will hardly be a muslim who does not condone in his heart the killing or severe punishment of those who offend the prophet. It is impossible to overestimate the effect of a tight knit weaponized religious community on the heart and mind of a child. Once a world-denouncing priest gets hold of a child, the way back to sanity is long and lonely and will usually be avoided.
The editor of Charlie Hebdo did not have children. His wife wanted them, but he always knew he was going to be killed like this. These weren’t nihilists, nor is the outrage now a flash in the pan. Very many people are very happy to put their life on the line in this great global battle for the free mind, that has been postponed for as long as it could. This is what it means to self-value: to be ready to die for your values. And this is the only way to be whole.
To place oneself above those who now rally, to feel wiser from a perspective of pessimism, is neither virtuous nor truthful. It’s protecting oneself from another disappointment. But the disappointment you’re actually risking is to be a cynical bystander like Obama, marginalizing yourself from the “élan vital” that is now taking hold of Europe and which might, I honestly can’t tell from here, take hold in America as well. If that happens, this is going to be a century to remember.
Jacob, i think it’s strange that you think fighting for freedom of speech and mind is of the upmost importance right now. There never has been a time when there was more freedom of speech, and freedom of information and freedom of everything… .
A lot of your discours is based on hope it seems, which is fine i guess… but i’d like to think that we can learn something from history and should take a wider view rather than relying on mere hope. Hope, and the nice ideals it gives birth to, sometimes do more harm than good.
In a way i’m also hopefull though, and not all that cynical as you might think, because i think we are coming into an age where there is finally enough awareness and knowledge of this allready long human history, that we can come up with something more grounded in that history. Western freedoms may be a part of that, but i don’t think it’s the end all.
Diekon, you’ve not understood.
I recommend you interpret what I actually wrote, not try to interpret me in the frame of what you hear in the streets and your preferred media outlets.
This is still a philosophy board.
A lot of your discours is built on pessimism and apathy. I get that you do not see how the problems in the world are concentrated in this attack. They are not, and I don’t claim that they are. But there are enormous problems and they are all related.
If you think there is a lot of freedom of expression now, you’re mistaken. Even the BBC had a prohibition of depiction of Mohamet, which was revoked after the attack. One of the greatest problem is our estrangement from Russia. The USA has become Europe’s enemy by trying to destroy the European relations. The US is part of this very same problem, and Obama’s absence from Paris is very significant.
We can do this without the USA, that is one of the greatly significant messages here.
The main problem is religion and idiocy. These are as wide spread now as they were in the Middle Ages. France, however, is no America. America as it behaves now is a large part of the problem.
I’ll say it again. We have never had more freedom of speech than now. Have you not seen all the trash people spread every day all over the interwebs? Doesn’t seem like all those people have the feeling they should repress their opinions. Seriously, compare today with any other time for some perspective on the issue.
You don’t know why Obama wasn’t there… you make an assumption. You generally seem to make to much assumptions. Philosophy is, among other things, about making as few assumptions as possible. Since this is still a philosophy board, maybe we should try to make less assumptions?
There is very little freedom of expression, in fact, most public expression is carefully worded and examined before being expressed, as there is very little truth left in religion today, its distortions are used as a tool to encourage people to be ignorant. A private agenda is festering and being carefully nurtured by those who will eventually have total control of most of us.
To see France rise up in the face of this is to be applauded.
Trying to drive a peg into the good relationship between France and Germany (for example by using rhetoric with false clichès) does not help to solve the problems but adds many more problems.
Okay, the relationship between Merkel and Hollande is not as good as it was between Kohl and Mitterand or Schmidt and Giscard d’Estaing or Adenauer and de Gaulle; but the relationship between Merkel and Hollande is - of course - not only caused by Merkel but also by Hollande; both are not really qualified for the current problems. France is bankrupt and has its “force de frappe” (which is eventually useless, at least in the case of bankrupty), and the situation in Germany is just the reverse one. Maybe Germany should search for another “best friend”, but maybe it would be better, if Germany and France found back to their good relationship of the past.
If you want to find scapegoats, then you will probably find some in your bedroom!
Has it ever been otherwise with institutionalised religions? If anything religion never had less influence over a what is a largely secularised western europe.
And who are those who are scheming to have total control over us? There is no one predominant influence that has replaced religion, that is precisly the point. It’s rather a myriad of influences pulling in different directions right now. Is that good, bad? I don’t know, i kind of like the freedom to choose whatever. But i’m used to it and have no real reference, i’m a product of my time. Looming in the distance is allways the idea that Europe will continue te be on the decline if it doesn’t pull it’s shit together soon. How will it be able to compete for example with the likes of China if you see the centrality of governement there?