Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

For discussions of culture, politics, economics, sociology, law, business and any other topic that falls under the social science remit.

Moderator: Uccisore

Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby RHARDBC » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:01 pm

Everything that exists has a germ of its own destruction in its very birth (Eastern wisdom)

Summary:

• Capitalism as an intermediate link between economic formations within itself brings the reason to move to another formation.
• The success of capitalism accelerates its "final" (move to other formation), but not a crisis, as Marx thought.
• The next formation after capitalism is the cooperative (‘employee-owned companies’) economy, not the communism, as Marx thought.
• The driving force of the transition is the creative class, created by capitalism itself, and not the working class, as Marx thought.
• The creative class cannot satisfy higher-level needs of Maslow’s Pyramid within the capitalist corporations and needs new motivation, that can be provided by employee-owned companies.

Full statement:

1. How is the development performed by Hegel
• There is a certain phenomenon - thesis.
• Thesis’ activities generates its opposite - antithesis.
• The struggle of thesis and antithesis.
• Solution of this struggle is in the new phenomenon - synthesis of thesis and antithesis, which combines the properties of both.
• The synthesis becomes the new thesis, and the cycle begins again.

2. Thesis: perfect competition and individual producers
• A new branch begins with the perfect competition of individual producers.
• Each producer is both the worker and the owner of his business.
• Production takes place without the use of hired labor.
• Individual producer is not a "capitalist" because he receives income only from his own labor, not the capital.

3. Antithesis: Successful producers hire workers and become "capitalists"
• More talented individual producers displace competitors and hire labor.
• Prior to the stage of hiring workers, individual producer does not know what a "capital" is.
• "Capitalist" begins to generate income not only from his own work, but also from the work of others on his "capital".
• Individual worker-owner forks on the individual owner and the collective worker within the same firm.

4. The struggle of thesis and antithesis: "holy war" of trade unions and shareholders

Trade unions:

• Hatred of the "capitalists" and the desire for revenge for the exploitation.
Objective: to get more "freebies" of the social package, even at the expense of the company.
• Opposition to innovation and increased productivity.
In case of victory: unprofitable business and society of dependents.
Capitalists:
• Neglecting to workers and the desire to use them.
Objective: to use cheap labor to maximize profits.
• Opposition to improve working conditions and social security.
In case of victory: increase of wealth inequality and social protests.

5. Institutional framework for the synthesis: successes of postindustrial capitalism
• Capitalism meets the basic needs of the people (physiological and safety)
• Capitalism creates conditions for the personal development of the general population:
1. The quality of education. Capitalism is the "customer" of the highly educated workforce, which service high-tech means of production.
2. Availability of information. Capitalism has started mass production of Internet, television, radio, paving the way for self-education.
3. Development of сommunications. Mass production of vehicles and devices to communicate at a distance promotes personal development.

Image
6. Maslow Pyramid: capitalism offers not enough motivation for the creative class
Intangible needs are not met because:
• Alienation from the profits and overall success of the company (belonging to a company);
• Non-involvement in the decision-making process (belonging to a company, the need for respect and self-realization).
Result: The creative class, working in corporations, does not consider these corporations as its own, do not identify with corporations’ successes and sees them as antagonists.

7. Definition of the Creative class
Creative class is part of post-industrial society as its intellectual and cultural level formed on the basis of success of capitalism in the fields of education, information technologies and communications, but it cannot fully succeed in capitalist system due to lack of motivation of higher level: ability to satisfy needs of belonging, respect and creativity within capitalist corporations.
• The more capitalism reaches success, the more growing the share of the creative class, which becomes a "foreign body" for capitalism and makes new demands to the economic system.
• Reaching the critical number of the creative class (which previously was the proletariat) leads to a qualitative change in the economic system.

8. In order to meet the higher level needs the ownership is needed
• The alienation of the worker from the company overcome by giving him the ownership of it.
• Worker-owner, along with the ownership, gets a voting right in issues of the company’s activities, a voting right to elect the top-management of the company and has a guaranteed share of the profits.
• The voting right on the company's activity is the right to self-realization, that is creativity. Everyone can express his opinion and offer new ideas as an equal partner.
• The work in such an atmosphere becomes interesting, it starts to bring pleasure, and motivation is restored.

Image
9. The worker-owner is a synthesis of thesis and antithesis of capitalism
• Confrontation of collective employee and individual owner-shareholder ends in the face of the collective worker-owner of the company.
• Worker-owner cannot complain about the owner, because he is the owner, and cannot exploit workers, because he is the worker.
• Absolute power of the individual owner is distributed to the members having equal rights.
• Instead of economic authoritarianism comes economic democracy.

10. Example: Mondragon Corporation – the world leader of cooperation (http://www.mondragon-corporation.com/eng/)
• More than 12.5 billion. Euros gross income;
• Offices in 41 countries;
• Sales in more than 150 countries;
• 15 technology centers;
• 74 thousand workers (84% are the members and real owners);
• 103 cooperatives;
• Co-operative Bank;
• University of Mondragon: 11 master's and 3 doctoral programs.

Video of how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaJ1hfVPUe8
Read more here: http://www.creatorsociety.org/index.php ... ifesto-eng
User avatar
RHARDBC
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby James S Saint » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:48 am

I have to say that it is a step in the right direction, but the decision making mechanism makes all of the difference. And that mechanism isn't revealed and is very often and easily flawed such as to allow for such a corporation to become something very evil quite easily in a global competition. Basically, it is too big for its head, getting closer to being communistic (in the future). But being employee owned is definitely headed the right direction (capitalistic compromise).

Take that same corporation, break it up into groups/corporations of from 10-40 people (also employee owned) handling the exact same market and products, with the right decision making mechanism, and you have a much more enduring and stable cooperative, resistant to very high level strategic political attacks and destine to become the world.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 24667
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby RHARDBC » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:24 am

James S Saint wrote:I have to say that it is a step in the right direction, but the decision making mechanism makes all of the difference. And that mechanism isn't revealed and is very often and easily flawed such as to allow for such a corporation to become something very evil quite easily in a global competition. Basically, it is too big for its head, getting closer to being communistic (in the future). But being employee owned is definitely headed the right direction (capitalistic compromise).

Take that same corporation, break it up into groups/corporations of from 10-40 people (also employee owned) handling the exact same market and products, with the right decision making mechanism, and you have a much more enduring and stable cooperative, resistant to very high level strategic political attacks and destine to become the world.

As far as I understand, you mean, that the big co-op corporations have a risk to become a corporation, where worker-owners have no real influence on the management and 'economic democrasy' is only on paper. I agree, that such a risk exists. And creating some departments with 10-40 people, that would have self-government or autonomy, within the co-op corporation is the right way.

Even if we see of what is the structure of the democratic state, it has central governmant and local authorities, and all of them elected in democratic way. So the co-op corporations can be organised in similar way. And, in fact, as far as I know, Mondragon Corporation has already such structure, and it's divided into more the 100 cooperatives.
User avatar
RHARDBC
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby James S Saint » Mon Mar 16, 2015 9:10 pm

Btw, I wanted to mention that this following excerpt from your SCM page is extremely important and true in governing people;
"That all is because of boredom, because of boredom…" – said a character of Notes from Underground by Dostoyevsky."In life all is evil and I think it happens because of idleness, boredom, emptiness of soul ..." - Chekhov echoes to him with words of a hero of My Life.Only something "new" that is a regular novelty whatever it may be can meet abyss of need for consumption for some short time. Each novelty gets quickly boring. It gets boring because consumption is not the thing a human being needs and not because it is bad.A human being is willing to create. Holy fire burns in his soul and this fire wants to go outside and embody in work of art to leave some imprint of personality of its creator. And exceeding consumption rapes all this divine put in a human being by God.Pigs eat the same way as people do but people can create. If people do not create, they turn into pigs. And it's painful to watch it.


By reading a little more concerning the make up of Mondragon, I can see that the priest that started the effort had understood some critical fundamental concerns that are commonly left out - would that I could speak to him back then.

I believe in a SAM corporation/group that seems very similar to Mondragon and the SCM incentive, although perhaps more exactly defined through its individualized constitutions, "CRH". When understood properly, I am certain that such groupings would have more certainly, harmoniously, and economically maintained the Imperial Cities of Europe, causing their design to spread throughout the world.

I am curious though as to what, in the SCM scheme is to cause any creative initiative after its establishment. I am getting the impression that such creativity is suppose to just appear and be sustained for no reason. From exactly where is the inspiration to create to stem?
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 24667
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:20 am

RHARDBC wrote:Was Hegel right?

Yes. Hegel was right. Hegel is right. Hegel will be right.

RHARDBC wrote:Everything that exists has a germ of its own destruction in its very birth (Eastern wisdom).

That is - of course - also right.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Orbie » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:54 am

Hegel should have been right,but he didn't turn out that way. Did he? he should have, but he was not. course, the future will really be the absolute adjudicator of that, right?
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby RHARDBC » Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:55 am

James S Saint wrote:Btw, I wanted to mention that this following excerpt from your SCM page is extremely important and true in governing people;
"That all is because of boredom, because of boredom…" – said a character of Notes from Underground by Dostoyevsky."In life all is evil and I think it happens because of idleness, boredom, emptiness of soul ..." - Chekhov echoes to him with words of a hero of My Life.Only something "new" that is a regular novelty whatever it may be can meet abyss of need for consumption for some short time. Each novelty gets quickly boring. It gets boring because consumption is not the thing a human being needs and not because it is bad.A human being is willing to create. Holy fire burns in his soul and this fire wants to go outside and embody in work of art to leave some imprint of personality of its creator. And exceeding consumption rapes all this divine put in a human being by God.Pigs eat the same way as people do but people can create. If people do not create, they turn into pigs. And it's painful to watch it.


By reading a little more concerning the make up of Mondragon, I can see that the priest that started the effort had understood some critical fundamental concerns that are commonly left out - would that I could speak to him back then.

I believe in a SAM corporation/group that seems very similar to Mondragon and the SCM incentive, although perhaps more exactly defined through its individualized constitutions, "CRH". When understood properly, I am certain that such groupings would have more certainly, harmoniously, and economically maintained the Imperial Cities of Europe, causing their design to spread throughout the world.

I am curious though as to what, in the SCM scheme is to cause any creative initiative after its establishment. I am getting the impression that such creativity is suppose to just appear and be sustained for no reason. From exactly where is the inspiration to create to stem?

I am very pleased that you are interested in CSM manifesto)

About SAM corporation I haven't heard yet, but i will read about it, its very interesting, as well as "CRH". Since I am Ukrainian, I want to Ukraine was built on the model of Mondragón, and then another countries (not only single cities ) would be inspired by the example of Ukraine.

About the inspiration to create, I think it given to us by God. :) And it could be different terms, that stimulate person to create, as falling in love or mental stress for any other reason. But as you rightly said, there may be no reason. A person can just wake up in the morning with a desire to create. And that's OK, because a direct function of man is to create. It would be strange if he did not want it.
User avatar
RHARDBC
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:43 pm

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:16 pm

The dialectic process as Hegel's method is pretty fundamental. One can not deny it. It is true. It is true in the sense that Hegel meant.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Orbie » Thu Mar 19, 2015 4:59 pm

The dialectic was not uniquely Hegel's method. Dialectic is an ancient method.According to Hegel, Pythagoras and particularly Zeno is credited in originating it. So it's a formal, logical system of indirect proof, meaning , it cannot be arrived from within the formal system itself. This implies, that, meaning is not exclusively self referential.
[size=50][/size]Allone's Obe issance



In answer to your prayer
sincere, the centre of
your circle here,
i stand ; and , without
taking thought,-
i know nothing. But i can

Full well your need-as
you be men
This: Re-Creation. With a
bow,
Then, your obedient

servant now.
One gift is all i find in me,
And that is faithful
memory
Orbie
partly cloudy, with a few showers
 
Posts: 7596
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:34 pm
Location: Night of infinite faith

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Fri Mar 20, 2015 1:01 am

Hegel's dialectic was, is, and will be Hegel's dialectic, Hegel's method! Of course! That's logical, even tautological.

Pythagoras' dialectic or others' dialectic, thus also Kant's dialectic, are not like Hegel's dialectic.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby MagsJ » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:37 pm

Recently approved post
RHARDBC wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Btw, I wanted to mention that this following excerpt from your SCM page is extremely important and true in governing people;
"That all is because of boredom, because of boredom…" – said a character of Notes from Underground by Dostoyevsky."In life all is evil and I think it happens because of idleness, boredom, emptiness of soul ..." - Chekhov echoes to him with words of a hero of My Life.Only something "new" that is a regular novelty whatever it may be can meet abyss of need for consumption for some short time. Each novelty gets quickly boring. It gets boring because consumption is not the thing a human being needs and not because it is bad.A human being is willing to create. Holy fire burns in his soul and this fire wants to go outside and embody in work of art to leave some imprint of personality of its creator. And exceeding consumption rapes all this divine put in a human being by God.Pigs eat the same way as people do but people can create. If people do not create, they turn into pigs. And it's painful to watch it.


By reading a little more concerning the make up of Mondragon, I can see that the priest that started the effort had understood some critical fundamental concerns that are commonly left out - would that I could speak to him back then.

I believe in a SAM corporation/group that seems very similar to Mondragon and the SCM incentive, although perhaps more exactly defined through its individualized constitutions, "CRH". When understood properly, I am certain that such groupings would have more certainly, harmoniously, and economically maintained the Imperial Cities of Europe, causing their design to spread throughout the world.

I am curious though as to what, in the SCM scheme is to cause any creative initiative after its establishment. I am getting the impression that such creativity is suppose to just appear and be sustained for no reason. From exactly where is the inspiration to create to stem?

I am very pleased that you are interested in CSM manifesto)

About SAM corporation I haven't heard yet, but i will read about it, its very interesting, as well as "CRH". Since I am Ukrainian, I want to Ukraine was built on the model of Mondragón, and then another countries (not only single cities ) would be inspired by the example of Ukraine.

About the inspiration to create, I think it given to us by God. :) And it could be different terms, that stimulate person to create, as falling in love or mental stress for any other reason. But as you rightly said, there may be no reason. A person can just wake up in the morning with a desire to create. And that's OK, because a direct function of man is to create. It would be strange if he did not want it.
Image
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist
 
Posts: 16749
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby James S Saint » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:34 am

RHARDBC wrote:About SAM corporation I haven't heard yet, but i will read about it, its very interesting, as well as "CRH". Since I am Ukrainian, I want to Ukraine was built on the model of Mondragón, and then another countries (not only single cities ) would be inspired by the example of Ukraine.

About the inspiration to create, I think it given to us by God. :)


Again from the SCM site;
"That all is because of boredom, because of boredom…" – said a character of Notes from Underground by Dostoyevsky."In life all is evil and I think it happens because of idleness, boredom, emptiness of soul ..." - Chekhov echoes to him with words of a hero of My Life.

Nothing could be more critically important to fully understand during these days than that one issue. There was one very essential issue almost entirely left out of the Jesus story. Jesus vaguely mentioned it and if given a few more years, would certainly have made it much more obvious (thus the resurrection was really only 98%). That is the issue of staying "hopefully busy", momentously very busy maintaining the hope in living, not the threat of dying. Those very few who manage to keep their own few people very hopefully and momentously busy under the CRH will become not merely the savior of their people and country, but literally of the entire world of people from that day forward. If born in the Ukraine, the Ukraine would become the new center of the world, staving off all of Russia. But it doesn't matter who starts it or where. Much like the Mondragon organization, it only takes a few and slowly, it becomes even greater than a dragon aspires to be. It, SAM, is the foundation of all that Man (or what remains of Man) is to become and forever remain. Aspire to be so creative as that.

If Hegel knew, he would not disagree (nor Kant, Aristotle, Jesus, Buddha nor any of them).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 24667
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:30 am

Philosophically said, the Marxistic communism, which is based on Hegel's dialectic, says that the capitalism is the thesis, the dictatorship of the proletariat is the antithesis, and classless equality and equal happiness for all is the synthesis. But if is right that history is class struggle (war), then it is not - or at least only without history - possible to get a classless equality and equal happiness for all. Okay, Hegel already claimed the end of history, also Marx who was a Left-Hegelian, and many others (mostly Hegelians, some Nietzscheans, some others). So, as long as there is history there is no classless equality and equal happiness for all, so that the classes, the inequality, thus the class struggle (war) remain.
Last edited by Arminius on Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:53 am

The problem of making an all inclusive mutual content of Marx and Hegel, is that in material dialectic, unlike with Hegel, there is no apex, a final synthesis, drawing upward the broad, complex redundant underbelly of confusing temporal human, all to human mass, instead in Marx the reverse is true, an ever widening ever complexive yet paradoxically entropically meaningless surge into appearing chaos.

This chaos is embraced only peripherally, and contradictory meshed with the hope for a deepening understanding.

That is the problem, when the two triangles are can not congrue , but tipped tipped to tip, hoping some kind of synergy to pass through them. The model presented above suffers this lack of synergy, through misalignment, misplacing the channels through which the elan may turn into synthesis.
Meno_
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:42 am

By the way: One can try to apply the dialectic process to Hegel's dialectic itself. If we say that Hegel's dialectic is anti-analytic and the analytic philosophy anti-dialectic, then there are thesis and antithesis in two ways, but we do not really know which one of them starts at first as thesis. Starting at first is an advantage. So which one is the one with that advantage? If we will never know this, then we will have to state that both remain just opposites, because it would be unfair to say this or that one starts at first. But, in that case, it is also problematic to say what the synthesis is. The first one (thesis) with the advantage will always say that the second one (antithesis) is somehow "false" or "evil" , so that the first one will always make a major contribution to the synthesis.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Meno_ » Tue Nov 08, 2016 6:00 am

Presumably, then, whichever comes first is the thesis.
But if either can be held to come first, then whichever comes first is the thesis.

Sounds like the cliche, 'who is on first, who is on third?

But in reality, this is precisely the problem Marx could not deal with in Hegel, for the question rests on the abandonment of duality by Marx. His understanding did not meets the level of this presumption, thus the eventual failure of Marxism.
Meno_
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:39 pm

My point is that it is not theoretically decidable who is on first, because, apparently, that decision is given by history (resp. evolution) itself, and that means by powerful people (resp. nature).

Dialectic processes are not nonsense, because they really happen. So they are, philosophically said, ontological, thus not only logical.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:52 pm

One of the most interesting questions is: What was first: war and disharmony or peace and harmony?
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby MagsJ » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:04 pm

Arminius wrote:One of the most interesting questions is: What was first: war and disharmony or peace and harmony?

I'm sure an anthropologist could trace and/or ascertain that.

Did becoming sentient cause our warring nature, or was it already present and active before that time? They would need to study the first human civilisation settlements to answer that.

Perhaps it started once tribes joined forces and had strength in numbers.. perhaps?
Image
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist
 
Posts: 16749
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:00 am

Arminius wrote:By the way: One can try to apply the dialectic process to Hegel's dialectic itself. If we say that Hegel's dialectic is anti-analytic and the analytic philosophy anti-dialectic, then there are thesis and antithesis in two ways, but we do not really know which one of them starts at first as thesis. Starting at first is an advantage. So which one is the one with that advantage? If we will never know this, then we will have to state that both remain just opposites, because it would be unfair to say this or that one starts at first. But, in that case, it is also problematic to say what the synthesis is. The first one (thesis) with the advantage will always say that the second one (antithesis) is somehow "false" or "evil" , so that the first one will always make a major contribution to the synthesis.

Another possibility is to give the advantage to the second one, the antithesis, for example to the dictatorship of the proletariat - as we know not only from history. Principally, everyone and not only egalitarianists like the communists, can "argue" in this way.

Peter Sloterdijk wrote:In an earlier day, the rich lived at the expense of the poor, directly and unequivocally; in a modern economy, unproductive citizens increasingly live at the expense of productive ones—though in an equivocal way, since they are told, and believe, that they are disadvantaged and deserve more still. Today, in fact, a good half of the population of every modern nation is made up of people with little or no income, who are exempt from taxes and live, to a large extent, off the other half of the population, which pays taxes. If such a situation were to be radicalized, it could give rise to massive social conflict. The eminently plausible free-market thesis of exploitation by the unproductive would then have prevailed over the much less promising socialist thesis of the exploitation of labor by capital.

In this example, the (advocates of the) unproductives ones "argue" as if they were the (advocates of the) productive ones, and the (advocates of the) real poroductive ones argue in the same way: They are exploited. But only the productive ones are right, because they (and only they!) pay taxes, and, moreover, the unproductive ones are paid by this taxes. The taxpayers (and only the taxpayers) are exploited by those who do not pay taxes, and this are not only poor people but also very rich people.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Mon Nov 14, 2016 12:50 am

MagsJ wrote:
Arminius wrote:One of the most interesting questions is: What was first: war and disharmony or peace and harmony?

I'm sure an anthropologist could trace and/or ascertain that.

Did becoming sentient cause our warring nature, or was it already present and active before that time? They would need to study the first human civilisation settlements to answer that.

Perhaps it started once tribes joined forces and had strength in numbers.. perhaps?

A lioness (for example), although not capable of counting, ascertains the absence of one of the cubs.
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Arminius » Tue Nov 15, 2016 2:59 pm

Arminius wrote:One of the most interesting questions is: What was first: war and disharmony or peace and harmony?

And if you want to rhetorically misuse these polemical two (thesis and antithesis), you merely have to jump into the synthesis as the smiling third by supporting the thesis and pretending that the antithesis is considered too, although in reality the antithesis is much more suppressed than considered.

(The polemical two are certainly misused, because we live in an era of much misuse.)
Image
User avatar
Arminius
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 5066
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:51 pm
Location: Saltus Teutoburgiensis

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby CelineK » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:06 am

however we want to call social systems, there are only 2 possibilities: centralization (coercion) or DEcentralization (non coercion) , and all what we have gotten for 4K years is much of the same: centralization which ultimately brings about oligarchy and serfdom.
The Laws Of Light, Emotions And Sexuality. http://www.celinek.net The time has come in the history of man's journey from his material jungle to his spiritual mountain top when it is imperative that he must live more and more in the cosmic Light universe of knowing, and less in the electric wave universe of sensing -- Walter Russell.
=============================================================
A Money-Free Society Is Now Reality! The natural liberty of man is to be free from any superior power on earth and not to fall under the will or legislative authority of man but only have the law of nature (immutable principles) for his rule. Samuel Adams. -- http://www.earthcustodians.net
User avatar
CelineK
 
Posts: 477
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 3:37 pm
Location: No Man's Land In A Money-Free Wold

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby Meno_ » Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:18 am

There is a synthesis between decentralization and centralization: the hypocritical oligarc, who out of spinelessness either magnifies his ill gotten power, or cynically masks it to portray a benevolent modest lover of humanity. And such a person likes to call himself the right person in compromising situations.
Nothing farther from the truth, they are usually shallow and deceptive.
Meno_
Philosopher
 
Posts: 2034
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:39 am

Re: Was Hegel right? Capitalism and the Creative class

Postby MagsJ » Sat Nov 19, 2016 5:12 am

Arminius wrote:
MagsJ wrote:
Arminius wrote:One of the most interesting questions is: What was first: war and disharmony or peace and harmony?

I'm sure an anthropologist could trace and/or ascertain that.

Did becoming sentient cause our warring nature, or was it already present and active before that time? They would need to study the first human civilisation settlements to answer that.

Perhaps it started once tribes joined forces and had strength in numbers.. perhaps?

A lioness (for example), although not capable of counting, ascertains the absence of one of the cubs.

There's territorial and then there's TERRITORIAL, and war is the latter. Lands were fought over for centuries only to be handed back to the original peoples, but not until many lives were needlessly lost in the process.
Image
User avatar
MagsJ
The Londonist
 
Posts: 16749
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:59 pm
Location: London, NC1

Next

Return to Society, Government, and Economics



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron