Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their cou

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Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their cou

Postby AutSider » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:29 am

Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their country:

http://brilliantmaps.com/europe-fight-war/

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Oh yeah, I'd fight a gazillion wars to protect my liberal, feminist, multicultural country. Sign me up right now.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Arminius » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:43 am

But do the percentages that are given in your map represent the reality?
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:45 am

Is this a war to save your country from globalism or what?
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby phyllo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:32 pm

Useless survey. Without the context of who you are fighting, where and why, people will answer based on memories of the last war. So for example, the French are at 29% because they don't want to repeat the shit experience of Vietnam or Algeria. If you ask them if they would fight to repel an invader on French soil, you're are going to get a much higher number.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:10 pm

Exactly my thoughts too.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Kathrina » Sat Sep 02, 2017 8:35 pm

The survey isn't useless.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Arminius » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:15 pm

It is a relatively huge difference whether you ask "will you fight a war for your liberal, feminist, multicultural country?" or just "will you fight a war for your country?" !
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby AutSider » Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:10 pm

Arminius wrote:It is a relatively huge difference whether you ask "will you fight a war for your liberal, feminist, multicultural country?" or just "will you fight a war for your country?" !


All European countries are liberal, feminist and multicultural so the only difference is if it is said explicitly or not.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Arminius » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:03 pm

AutSider wrote:
Arminius wrote:It is a relatively huge difference whether you ask "will you fight a war for your liberal, feminist, multicultural country?" or just "will you fight a war for your country?" !


All European countries are liberal, feminist and multicultural so the only difference is if it is said explicitly or not.

Sure. But do you think that the question has been asked explicitly? :-k

The percentage of each country can be smaller or larger than those in the map (depending on how explicitly the question has been asked).
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Kathrina » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:01 am

Arminius wrote:
AutSider wrote:
Arminius wrote:It is a relatively huge difference whether you ask "will you fight a war for your liberal, feminist, multicultural country?" or just "will you fight a war for your country?" !


All European countries are liberal, feminist and multicultural so the only difference is if it is said explicitly or not.

Sure. But do you think that the question has been asked explicitly? :-k

The percentage of each country can be smaller or larger than those in the map (depending on how explicitly the question has been asked).

But the survey isn't useless, is it?
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:13 am

What use does it have?
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Arminius » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:23 am

Kathrina wrote:
Arminius wrote:
AutSider wrote:All European countries are liberal, feminist and multicultural so the only difference is if it is said explicitly or not.

Sure. But do you think that the question has been asked explicitly? :-k

The percentage of each country can be smaller or larger than those in the map (depending on how explicitly the question has been asked).

But the survey isn't useless, is it?

The survey is not useless.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Kathrina » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:50 am

phyllo wrote:What use does it have?

You're not serious, are you? :angry-banghead:

INFORMATION !
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:01 am

Kathrina wrote:
phyllo wrote:What use does it have?

You're not serious, are you? :angry-banghead:

INFORMATION !
There is useful information and useless information. And that's before we get into the various types of misinformation.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Arminius » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:10 am

Information is information. Misinformation is misinformation.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:14 am

Brilliant. =D>
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Carleas » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:53 pm

phyllo wrote:What use does it have?

Kathrina wrote:[...]INFORMATION !

But what information? Clearly the survey is being interpreted as providing the information, 'X% of people from Y country would be willing to fight a war for their country'. But that's not the information that was collected. The information collected was, 'X% of people form Y country would respond positively when asked in peacetime by a pollster about their willingness to go to war for their country". That is a meaningful difference, and one piece of information is clearly more useful than the other.

Methodology matters, Kathrina.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:02 pm

The survey gives no details about who was asked or what they were asked...it's useless. The surveyors could have asked 100 people who were over 80 years old rather than the population at large to get their approximated results. How many 80 year olds are going to go to war realistically?

What they were asked is crucial too...go to war for their country...by invading a peaceful territory for no reason...is going to get different results than...stopping an invader from overtaking their country.

It's a useless survey without the details of who was asked and what was asked.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Meno_ » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:25 pm

Its a toss up between methodology and specifics. The variance of social composition as an index of who will fight is determined by who or what the enemy is. For example, if the enemy threatens the global community, as foretold in a futuristic war in a war of the worlds scenario, where threat animates from outer space, then the survey would collapse into fewer percentages, since when facing a common enemy, individual percentages per individual country would show diminished percentages per European Country.

As in the past, where the percent of European populations joining the Crusades per total population was lower then if France, or the Holy Roman Empire's constituting principalities were taken individually.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Kathrina » Wed Sep 06, 2017 3:51 pm

Carleas wrote:
phyllo wrote:What use does it have?

Kathrina wrote:[...]INFORMATION !

But what information? Clearly the survey is being interpreted as providing the information, 'X% of people from Y country would be willing to fight a war for their country'. But that's not the information that was collected. The information collected was, 'X% of people form Y country would respond positively when asked in peacetime by a pollster about their willingness to go to war for their country". That is a meaningful difference, and one piece of information is clearly more useful than the other.

Methodology matters, Kathrina.

What matters the most is who is interested in it and for what reason.

If you find it useless, somebody else will find it useful. One shouldn't always judge this from the people's view. If the people find it useless, others will find it useful.

Also, information and misinformation are often mixed, This is a kind of methodology too.

Arminius wrote:Information is information. Misinformation is misinformation.

And there is always someone who can use information or misinformation, for whatever reason.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Carleas » Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:43 pm

Ah, I see the disconnect now. I take you to be saying that the result can be used for some purpose, and with that I agree (clearly it has been useful in misleading certain uncritical readers to advance a political ideology).

What I (and, correct me if I'm wrong, Phyllo) mean is that the truth about the world for which this result provides support does not have important consequences; it is through misuse and misunderstanding that it is being put to use, but that misuse or misunderstanding requires substituting false premises (e.g. "this survey tells us about people's actual willingness to go to war for their country") or making bad deductions (e.g. "therefore people must be sick of liberalism, feminism, and multiculturalism") from the premises for which this provides empirical evidence. The well-supported premises and the deductions that can be made using them are boring.

AutSider wrote:the only difference is if it is said explicitly or not.

I recommend Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow for discussion of why and how much this difference matters.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby WendyDarling » Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:37 pm

Autsider's views and reasons for using the survey map do not make the map hold water as useful information. The survey map is incomplete, lacking details as to its nature and whatever the OP implies that the survey means is not presented on the map itself.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby AutSider » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:20 pm

That's a criticism against surveys in general, Carleas. Of course some people might claim they would go to war but then decide not to, and others might claim they wouldn't go to war and still go.

making bad deductions (e.g. "therefore people must be sick of liberalism, feminism, and multiculturalism")


I didn't make this deduction, if that's what you mean. I think there is a variety of reasons that people wouldn't fight for their country, some of them more justified than others.
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Re: Percentage of Europeans willing to fight a war for their

Postby Carleas » Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:45 pm

AutSider wrote:That's a criticism against surveys in general, Carleas.

Yes, it is. Surveys as a method of getting information about a population are always subject to this kind of criticism. But not all questions have the same problem, or to the same degree. If you ask people for their height, you'll get a lower rate of error than if you ask them how likely they are to vote in the next election. Responses to certain types of questions are less reliable than responses to others, because people have more or less reason or ability to lie to pollsters, and they be more or less well informed about the answer to the question.

To the latter point, a person's predictions about what they will do in the future are pretty unreliable, especially when they are predicting what they would do in an unlikely hypothetical that they have never experienced before. On questions like those, people just aren't that well informed. As Kahneman notes in his book, in response to a question like the one presented in this survey, people are likely to (unconsciously) substitute a much easier question, something more like "do you like war?" or "is the army a good career?".

And, as Wendy and others have pointed out, the framing of the question matters. The way a question is worded, and questions that lead into it, can affect the outcome of the answer substantially. And again, that effect is larger for less definite questions like this one, where people are very likely to mentally substitute a more intuitive question.

So you're right, it's a general criticism of surveys, but this specific question is one for which the criticism should carry greater weight.
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