AI and robotics

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AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:43 am

No small part of the world-wide resurgence of ultra-conservatism is a reaction to technological advances. Not just the advances, but the speed in which those advances are happening. AI and robotics are raising fundamental questions that aren't even being discussed even though they are becoming more apparent daily. People are uncomfortable and may not know why or what is making them uncomfortable. Particularly in the developed societies where AI and robotics is in almost everything, the reactionary conservatism is strongest.

WHY? Because we don't really have a handle on where all this silicon based technology is taking us. A little fear and dread anyone?

So what are some of the obvious un-answered questions?

How do I make a living 10 or 20 years from now? It isn't about finding a job, it is whether there will be any jobs for humans once robots can do everything better than us. What is a living then?

AI is looking promising with the development of learning software programs. Maybe a little too promising? A recent AI program was found to have created a proprietary machine language not decipherable by its human programmers. At what point does such a program decide it no longer needs human input? When does the tail start wagging the dog? This is the red flag that the silicon valley visionaries have started expressing concern over.

What happens when internetivity is AI completed? If you have a smart phone (with GPS) AI could easily know everything about you on a second by second basis. All the tracking software and apps have pretty much got that covered already. Privacy? What is that in a brave new world?

Is a machine-human war possible? We know that various militaries are experimenting with killing machines that make life-death decisions without human guidance. Who, or what will make those parameters operational? AI doesn't need sentience, it just need broad initial guidence and then its learning capabilities will control its decision making. What kind of decisions? Oh, maybe killing anyone not conforming to the ideal Aryian stereotype? Policing at its finest.

I'm sure there are many other questions and I invite any and all. This is a discussion area that needs to happen NOW before the MATRIX becomes a potential reality.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:53 am

Should I be afraid of the AI and robots or should I be afraid of the people who make this stuff without a conscience themselves? When are people going to be held accountable for what they create?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:26 am

WendyDarling wrote:Should I be afraid of the AI and robots or should I be afraid of the people who make this stuff without a conscience themselves? When are people going to be held accountable for what they create?


Probably both. How do you propose to hold people accountable BEFORE they open the box? After-the-fact just might be too little too late. The scariest part of this scenario is unintended consequences. It makes no difference whether the creators have a conscience or not, things might not work out the way intended. All the wonderful things brought by technological development may include some thing not quite so wonderful. It is the not knowing that tightens the 'ol sphincter.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:05 am

It makes no difference whether the creators have a conscience or not, things might not work out the way intended.

People need to hold themselves accountable and those with consciences would be more inclined to do so before they open the box which I interpret to mean before they bring their creation into material reality.

Creations that manipulate material reality must be researched before they are spawned.

1. Genius' self-policing by not birthing the creation.
2. Genius' doing research before releasing the creation to others.
3. Genius' and other's doing long term research before they are allowed to apply for a license to own/manage the creation in public sphere.
4. The genius and their estate will always be held accountable in a court of law for where their creation ends up and what it ends up doing to reality at large.

For group endeavors, the group would be held liable.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:51 am

WendyDarling wrote:
It makes no difference whether the creators have a conscience or not, things might not work out the way intended.

People need to hold themselves accountable and those with consciences would be more inclined to do so before they open the box which I interpret to mean before they bring their creation into material reality.

Creations that manipulate material reality must be researched before they are spawned.

1. Genius' self-policing by not birthing the creation.
2. Genius' doing research before releasing the creation to others.
3. Genius' and other's doing long term research before they are allowed to apply for a license to own/manage the creation in public sphere.
4. The genius and their estate will always be held accountable in a court of law for where their creation ends up and what it ends up doing to reality at large.

For group endeavors, the group would be held liable.


That sounds perfectly reasonable to me, but please explain why it has never worked up to this point. There isn't a piece of software we know of that hasn't been hacked and often used for malicious purposes. Most software was written with the best of intentions, but.... Didn't the U.S. and/or the Israelis create stuxnet to disable Iranian centrifuges to slow their nuclear ambitions? Who was held liable for that? Has Microsoft been held accountable for an OS that reads like swiss cheese?

I too believe in rule of law, but it seems a bit slow for the pace exhibited by AI development so far. Again, too little, too late.

Consider the current state of law suits brought against the biggies. They rip off several billion dollars and then are fined a million or two. The banks know and take full advantage of the disparity - and we get to pay for it. One could call that statutory rape. But I kwibble...

There has to be workable answers, but it seems that the questions run faster than our answers.

I'm still more interested in finding a workable answer or set of answers to the question of how shall we live? What is the definition of "making a living" when my toaster oven is smarter than me and all my friends.
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Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

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Re: AI and robotics

Postby Kathrina » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:47 am

WendyDarling wrote:Should I be afraid of the AI and robots or should I be afraid of the people who make this stuff without a conscience themselves? When are people going to be held accountable for what they create?

People without accountability and without conscience have become more and more. So you should be afraid of those people.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:05 am

Control the hardware and you control the software. Effect laws to withhold introducing new tech hardwares which will cap the limits of the softwares. No tech (or inventions...period) are released to the public without being researched and scrutinized by the new laws. Gateway everything new through the required by law research of benefits and costs. I'd like this research to last for twenty years before newness is opened onto the market. 20 years seems to be enough time to figure out what can happen and to circumvent disasters.

While getting rich quick would become a thing of the past so would getting killed quick or killing the environment quick.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:36 am

tentative wrote:
I am still more interested in finding a workable answer or set of answers to the question of how shall we live
What is the definition of making a living when my toaster oven is smarter than me and all my friends

Humans to become more machine like through implants and nanotechnology so they are better adapted to survive in a machine world
Because at some point we are no longer going to be the most intelligent species on the planet so will have to make some adjustments

But machines may look upon us in the same way that we look upon other animals : as inferior to us and so therefore more expendable
Now this is not going to happen in our life time and so we are not going to witness it but we will at some point be superseded by them
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:27 am

WendyDarling wrote:Control the hardware and you control the software. Effect laws to withhold introducing new tech hardwares which will cap the limits of the softwares. No tech (or inventions...period) are released to the public without being researched and scrutinized by the new laws. Gateway everything new through the required by law research of benefits and costs. I'd like this research to last for twenty years before newness is opened onto the market. 20 years seems to be enough time to figure out what can happen and to circumvent disasters.

While getting rich quick would become a thing of the past so would getting killed quick or killing the environment quick.


Wendy, I appreciate you offering commonsense solutions, but there are a few wrinkles. Are you assuming global buy in? That may be a tough sell. Additionally, patent laws would have to be re-written and uniformally applied globally lest the unscrupulous should try to circumvent such laws by hiding out in some obscure island "nation" and jumping the gun on new inventions. Hell, AI might even be enlisted to help them skirt such protocols. Good ideas, but how do you put them in place?

surreptitious75 wrote:
tentative wrote:
I am still more interested in finding a workable answer or set of answers to the question of how shall we live
What is the definition of making a living when my toaster oven is smarter than me and all my friends


Humans to become more machine like through implants and nanotechnology so they are better adapted to survive in a machine world
Because at some point we are no longer going to be the most intelligent species on the planet so will have to make some adjustments

But machines may look upon us in the same way that we look upon other animals : as inferior to us and so therefore more expendable
Now this is not going to happen in our life time and so we are not going to witness it but we will at some point be superseded by them


Quite possible, but what sort of implants, what kind of nanotechnology are you talking about? Where does human end and machine begin to become "better adapted"? What sort of adjustments are you suggesting? What sort of mechanism would prevent AI and robots decide that we are expendable?
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

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Re: AI and robotics

Postby surreptitious75 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:43 am

tentative wrote:
surreptitious75 wrote:
tentative wrote:
I am still more interested in finding a workable answer or set of answers to the question of how shall we live
What is the definition of making a living when my toaster oven is smarter than me and all my friends

Humans to become more machine like through implants and nanotechnology so they are better adapted to survive in a machine world
Because at some point we are no longer going to be the most intelligent species on the planet so will have to make some adjustments

But machines may look upon us in the same way that we look upon other animals : as inferior to us and so therefore more expendable
Now this is not going to happen in our life time and so we are not going to witness it but we will at some point be superseded by them

Quite possible but what sort of implants what kind of nanotechnology are you talking about? Where does human end and machine begin to become
better adapted? What sort of adjustments are you suggesting? What sort of mechanism would prevent AI and robots decide that we are expendable

Implants or nanotechnology which would make humans think more logically and less emotionally just like machines
Tougher skin / improved vision / greater strength / greater dexterity / improved reasoning / improved body shape

At some point they will be humanoid : half human half machine but eventually they will progress to virtual machine
And the machines will conquer humans less they are programmed to be benevolent but how effective would that be
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:44 pm

Humans to become more machine like through implants and nanotechnology so they are better adapted to survive in a machine world
Because at some point we are no longer going to be the most intelligent species on the planet so will have to make some adjustments

But machines may look upon us in the same way that we look upon other animals : as inferior to us and so therefore more expendable
Now this is not going to happen in our life time and so we are not going to witness it but we will at some point be superseded by them[/quote]
Quite possible but what sort of implants what kind of nanotechnology are you talking about? Where does human end and machine begin to become
better adapted? What sort of adjustments are you suggesting? What sort of mechanism would prevent AI and robots decide that we are expendable[/quote]
Implants or nanotechnology which would make humans think more logically and less emotionally just like machines
Tougher skin / improved vision / greater strength / greater dexterity / improved reasoning / improved body shape

At some point they will be humanoid : half human half machine but eventually they will progress to virtual machine
And the machines will conquer humans less they are programmed to be benevolent but how effective would that be[/quote]

I suppose a cyborg existence would be possible at some point, but the technology needed to mess with the human brain seems quite a long way off. More to the point, why would machine intelligence take the time and energy to incorporate humans into a future existence? But that is the dark side. We still are in control, but the question remains: How do we get through the weeds and find compatible solutions?
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:35 pm

Are you assuming global buy in?

Is the US still the bread basket of the world? If so, that looks like leverage to me. Is the US still the biggest purchaser of all the crap on the market? If so, that also looks like leverage to me.

how do you put them in place?

International promises of hell for the violators and special tasks forces that find where new products originate. Life in prison sentences for the violators and death sentences for inventors who let their inventions get away from them, inventions that took lives.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:14 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
Are you assuming global buy in?

Is the US still the bread basket of the world? If so, that looks like leverage to me. Is the US still the biggest purchaser of all the crap on the market? If so, that also looks like leverage to me.

how do you put them in place?

International promises of hell for the violators and special tasks forces that find where new products originate. Life in prison sentences for the violators and death sentences for inventors who let their inventions get away from them, inventions that took lives.


Wendy, The U.S. has just about topped out when it comes to any form of "leverage" in world markets. It is a global economy now (I suspect you hate this). The U.S. is certainly a player, but not the only one. China has more clout than any country at the moment. It will eventually fall into the same capitalist trap we enjoy, but not till all its millions of people have the same affluence we think is our god-given right.

Your solutions seem a bit harsh and unfortunately employ the same tactics that keep us enslaved by todays power people. It might be possible that a new paradigm is needed that people will choose instead of coercion and threats of violence. Your solutions would probably work in the short run, but somehow, we need solutions that go far beyond might makes right.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:22 pm

No one is guarding humanity right now, not even them guarding themselves. With human values in the crapper and no end to selfishness in sight, harsh measures are needed and nothing harsh, that calls out the selfish idiots, exists right now. Why is this area, the creative arena, that affects millions of lives not held up to any scrutiny? Why do the creative get the golden selfish pass over the rest of society? Do we need the crap that their peddling that much? Do we at the cost of human lives and the souls of beings?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:33 pm

tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:
Are you assuming global buy in?

Is the US still the bread basket of the world? If so, that looks like leverage to me. Is the US still the biggest purchaser of all the crap on the market? If so, that also looks like leverage to me.

how do you put them in place?

International promises of hell for the violators and special tasks forces that find where new products originate. Life in prison sentences for the violators and death sentences for inventors who let their inventions get away from them, inventions that took lives.


Wendy, The U.S. has just about topped out when it comes to any form of "leverage" in world markets. It is a global economy now (I suspect you hate this). The U.S. is certainly a player, but not the only one. China has more clout than any country at the moment. It will eventually fall into the same capitalist trap we enjoy, but not till all its millions of people have the same affluence we think is our god-given right.

Your solutions seem a bit harsh and unfortunately employ the same tactics that keep us enslaved by todays power people. It might be possible that a new paradigm is needed that people will choose instead of coercion and threats of violence. Your solutions would probably work in the short run, but somehow, we need solutions that go far beyond might makes right.

Global schmobile. We can feed and clothe our country and let the others do the same for theirs. The USA has enough resources to survive without much of what the rest of the world has to offer. Oil would be our initial downfall because we demand convenience, but only rural folks would need such fuel in their industries. The rest of transportation could be handled through public trans measures and like other countries, bicycles, scooters, and (god forbid) walking. The health of our country would rise exponentially with people out and about exercising daily, put them fucking health conglomerates out of business...the evil greedy fucks!
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:54 pm

WendyDarling wrote:No one is guarding humanity right now, not even them guarding themselves. With human values in the crapper and no end to selfishness in sight, harsh measures are needed and nothing harsh, that calls out the selfish idiots, exists right now. Why is this area, the creative arena, that affects millions of lives not held up to any scrutiny? Why do the creative get the golden selfish pass over the rest of society? Do we need the crap that their peddling that much? Do we at the cost of human lives and the souls of beings?


Oh my! Wendy, you are beginning to sound like a liberal liberal! :)

There is a simple answer but it requires ALL of us. Simply say no. We don't have to be slaves, we just say no, stop. But the chances of that happening are slim to none and Slim left town and the Nun was driving. But can you see that such a miracle would require some painful critical thinking on our part? I question whether we have the discipline and focus to see it through. You're spot on, but how do we get there? I'm afraid that they will continue dazzling us with shiny objects until the technologies run us over.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:15 pm

There is a simple answer but it requires ALL of us.

ALL? 3/4 would do the trick. The problem would be in the perseverance dept. until shit gets resolved.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:34 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
There is a simple answer but it requires ALL of us.

ALL? 3/4 would do the trick. The problem would be in the perseverance dept. until shit gets resolved.


But... but... shit never gets resolved as long as there is one shithead willing to break the rules. If not all can buy in, then coercion remains in play and we've seen how well that works.

In the mean time, there is an Amazon AI program monitoring my refrigerator seeing which drawers I'm opening, how often, and whether it is meat or vegetables. This information is forwarded to the Whole Foods division to fine tune which pop up ads to place on my web accounts. Additionally, my food buying choices are compared to the FDA recommendations and if considered unhealthy, referred to my health insurance company who will provide guidance as well as warnings about my diet choices.

It is that sort of complexity that is difficult to think through and yet, it is imperative that we start thinking before we have no choice in this human-machine race.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:43 pm

Unplug. Painful, but simple.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 5:50 pm

WendyDarling wrote:Unplug. Painful, but simple.


:lol: And yet, here we are... :lol:
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:04 pm

I have to stay connected...I'm the voice of reason. :o :evilfun: :wink: Now go ahead, unplug, then spend the other 16 hours a day gettin ALL on board, door-to-door. Honestly, I'll settle for 3/4-unmedicated psychotics and selfish SOBs will be the 1/4 who go their own way no matter.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:38 pm

WendyDarling wrote:I have to stay connected...I'm the voice of reason. :o :evilfun: :wink: Now go ahead, unplug, then spend the other 16 hours a day gettin ALL on board, door-to-door. Honestly, I'll settle for 3/4-unmedicated psychotics and selfish SOBs will be the 1/4 who go their own way no matter.


Voice of reason, huh? I think I'll leave that alone.

I can't unplug the refrigerator! The jar of caviar I opened last night will spoil without refrigeration! :-"

You're right. All is too much to ask, but maybe 98%? I'm sure that an AI program can find a suitable job for the remaining 2%. There must be openings on the Siberian Railway...
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby WendyDarling » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:38 pm

tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:I have to stay connected...I'm the voice of reason. :o :evilfun: :wink: Now go ahead, unplug, then spend the other 16 hours a day gettin ALL on board, door-to-door. Honestly, I'll settle for 3/4-unmedicated psychotics and selfish SOBs will be the 1/4 who go their own way no matter.


Voice of reason, huh? I think I'll leave that alone.

I can't unplug the refrigerator! The jar of caviar I opened last night will spoil without refrigeration! :-"

You're right. All is too much to ask, but maybe 98%? I'm sure that an AI program can find a suitable job for the remaining 2%. There must be openings on the Siberian Railway...

Caviar...should be only rice and you should be without electricity says Mr. Reasonable, then you'll have saved enough to take over the stock market. Get to saving like a disciplined person, Buster! :evilfun:
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: AI and robotics

Postby Chakra Superstar » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:42 am

tentative wrote:In the mean time, there is an Amazon AI program monitoring my refrigerator seeing which drawers I'm opening, how often, and whether it is meat or vegetables. This information is forwarded to the Whole Foods division to fine tune which pop up ads to place on my web accounts. Additionally, my food buying choices are compared to the FDA recommendations and if considered unhealthy, referred to my health insurance company who will provide guidance as well as warnings about my diet choices.


Hehehe. That reminded me of this old (2006?) American Civil Liberties Union video.

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Re: AI and robotics

Postby tentative » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:16 pm

https://techxplore.com/news/2017-09-bur ... nt=2144817.

And so, even one of the lowest paying jobs is going the robotic route. I noted that the ordering system is integrated with the flipper. But they say that it will create jobs. Yeah, right.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

I don't take know for an answer.
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