Patriotism

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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:39 pm

This :
The flag and anthem doesn't mean the same thing to everyone else, nor will it ever, nor should you pretend or assume that what they are doing is "disrespect towards the flag or anthem" it is a protest towards a certain situation.

and this :
The flag is a symbol of more than our victory, it is a symbol of everything the nation is. The national anthem is a symbol too of that. It is more than what you want it to be confined to, for many people.


So which is it?

"a protest towards a certain situation"

Or

'a protest towards everything the nation is'

IOW, is it confined to just what you want it confined to? Or is it impossible to confine it in that limited way?
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:02 pm

phyllo wrote:This :
The flag and anthem doesn't mean the same thing to everyone else, nor will it ever, nor should you pretend or assume that what they are doing is "disrespect towards the flag or anthem" it is a protest towards a certain situation.

and this :
The flag is a symbol of more than our victory, it is a symbol of everything the nation is. The national anthem is a symbol too of that. It is more than what you want it to be confined to, for many people.


So which is it?

"a protest towards a certain situation"

Or

'a protest towards everything the nation is'

IOW, is it confined to just what you want it confined to? Or is it impossible to confine it in that limited way?


My interpretation of the symbol is inclusive of hers. Her's is excluding. But that doesn't mean its not a symbol of what I said, for others.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:15 pm

My interpretation of the symbol is inclusive of hers. Her's is excluding. But that doesn't mean its not a symbol of what I said, for others.
My point is that when she sees it in terms of an insult to the military, you're saying it's not so confined, but at at the same time you view it as a confined protest against racism.

IOW, you seem to be allowing yourself to control the scope of the protest and the symbols and denying her the same sort of control.
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:22 pm

ww & phyllo,

You guys have it right. Right wing talking points don't have to have any logic or factual info behind them. If someone says shit is flower petals, then a train car load of shit is flowers. Pointing out that the smell isn't exactly perfume won't change their mind. It's flowers.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:26 pm

My points are factual. The flag was used by the military during combat to claim our countries sovereignty and the anthem describes the military battle in which the flag was used.

Liberals can say they represent whatever convoluted ideas that they want to tie them too, but they represent our patriots who die in battle.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:27 pm

The simple fact is that it's impossible to pin down what specifically one is protesting or what specifically one is supporting when kneeling or standing for the anthem. Therefore, it amounts to nothing but pointless bickering. :-"
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:28 pm

It amounts to stupid liberal beliefs that are made in their minds and not in reality.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:33 pm

WendyDarling wrote:My points are factual. The flag was used by the military during combat to claim our countries sovereignty and the anthem describes the military battle in which the flag was used.

Liberals can say they represent whatever convoluted ideas that they want to tie them too, but they represent our patriots who die in battle.
Yes they do. BUT that is only part of the flag and anthem symbolism. Both represent the American ideals and when those ideals are besmirched by racism, then calling it out is an act of true patriotism. Dissing those who point this out is, shall I coin a phrase?, unpatriotic. It is allowing our precious symbols to represent the antithesis of what they are supposed to stand for.
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:33 pm

phyllo wrote:
IOW, you seem to be allowing yourself to control the scope of the protest and the symbols and denying her the same sort of control.



Colin made the symbol of kneeling during the national anthem. He defined what he meant by his symbol. Nobody else can define what he meant, by what he meant.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:34 pm

WendyDarling wrote:It amounts to stupid liberal beliefs that are made in their minds and not in reality.


Only true in your alternate reality... :-"
IGAYRCCFYVM
Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:35 pm

tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:My points are factual. The flag was used by the military during combat to claim our countries sovereignty and the anthem describes the military battle in which the flag was used.

Liberals can say they represent whatever convoluted ideas that they want to tie them too, but they represent our patriots who die in battle.
Yes they do. BUT that is only part of the flag and anthem symbolism. Both represent the American ideals and when those ideals are besmirched by racism, then calling it out is an act of true patriotism. Dissing those who point this out is, shall I coin a phrase?, unpatriotic. It is allowing our precious symbols to represent the antithesis of what they are supposed to stand for.

You can't help yourself, can you? You have to take what represents war fought and died for and make it about a misinformed liberal agenda?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Carleas » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:39 pm

WW_III_ANGRY, I think that I did misunderstand you. It seems you have a certain special care for people from your country because they are from your country, i.e. that the country actually does something in the moral calculus independent of the values or the practical consideration. I think that's a sufficient condition for something to be 'patriotism'.

But I don't get the appeal. In many places, we live and work with people who are not our fellow countrymen. In many places, ones neighbors and coworkers, the people who one passed on the road, and the people whose combined welfare defines the welfare of ones society, are not citizens, are not from or permanently residing in ones country. Easy cases for this are countries in the EU that allow more-or-less free movement, so that people actually live their lives on both sides of a border. Some places in the US have historically had this, e.g. the US-Canada border was long under patrolled as a policy. But even in major cities, places like DC and New York, a significant portion of the community at any given moment are composed of immigrants, visitors, tourists, travelers from all over the world. Surely their well being is important to community welfare, and yet by an accident of birth they don't get the same moral consideration? I find that odd.

Another intuition pump on this is at the margins of citizenship. Look at how Trump is responding to Puerto Rico. The humanitarian disaster there is affecting millions of US citizens, but it doesn't seem Trump or his base see it that way. Surely many don't realize that people born in Puerto Rico are US citizens, but even the ones that do just don't consider them full and equal citizens. Then think of how your own intuitions about their moral worth would change if Puerto Rico were made a full state, or spun off as an independent nation. It just seems weird to give any moral weight to such changes, when the people don't change, the society doesn't change. The change could be entirely on paper, and patriotism would seem to demand giving it some metaphysical status that is undeserved.

I know, I'm being naive, and that there's a real meaning in intersubjective realities like 'citizenship' and 'country', but I find them poorly supported, and would prefer to de-emphasize them relative to more objective criteria like mutually beneficial cooperation, shared humanity, and the common predicament of sentient life.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:47 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:My points are factual. The flag was used by the military during combat to claim our countries sovereignty and the anthem describes the military battle in which the flag was used.

Liberals can say they represent whatever convoluted ideas that they want to tie them too, but they represent our patriots who die in battle.
Yes they do. BUT that is only part of the flag and anthem symbolism. Both represent the American ideals and when those ideals are besmirched by racism, then calling it out is an act of true patriotism. Dissing those who point this out is, shall I coin a phrase?, unpatriotic. It is allowing our precious symbols to represent the antithesis of what they are supposed to stand for.

You can't help yourself, can you? You have to take what represents war fought and died for and make it about a misinformed liberal agenda?


I would never discount what our military has done for all of us. But a misinformed liberal agenda? What are you talking about? I spoke to all the other things that make us Americans and that the symbols reflect those values. That is misinformed?

Consider your words. Start making sense.... please?
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:50 pm

tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:It amounts to stupid liberal beliefs that are made in their minds and not in reality.


Only true in your alternate reality... :-"


I share a physical reality, made of the blood and sweat of actual people and objects such as a national flag that represent their efforts to accomplish specific goals, like military action used to claim our lands as sovereign from Britain and all threats, with real patriotism where people put their money where their mouths are, not some idealistic fantasy world of how one ought to live that steals from other humans, symbols, and events, namely the military, the flag and anthem, and deaths in battle, to gain it's validity. Liberals are always misappropriating people, symbols, and objects for ulterior causes trying to give their bullshit causes legitimacy.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:53 pm

Carleas wrote:WW_III_ANGRY, I think that I did misunderstand you. It seems you have a certain special care for people from your country because they are from your country, i.e. that the country actually does something in the moral calculus independent of the values or the practical consideration. I think that's a sufficient condition for something to be 'patriotism'.

But I don't get the appeal. In many places, we live and work with people who are not our fellow countrymen. In many places, ones neighbors and coworkers, the people who one passed on the road, and the people whose combined welfare defines the welfare of ones society, are not citizens, are not from or permanently residing in ones country. Easy cases for this are countries in the EU that allow more-or-less free movement, so that people actually live their lives on both sides of a border. Some places in the US have historically had this, e.g. the US-Canada border was long under patrolled as a policy. But even in major cities, places like DC and New York, a significant portion of the community at any given moment are composed of immigrants, visitors, tourists, travelers from all over the world. Surely their well being is important to community welfare, and yet by an accident of birth they don't get the same moral consideration? I find that odd.

Another intuition pump on this is at the margins of citizenship. Look at how Trump is responding to Puerto Rico. The humanitarian disaster there is affecting millions of US citizens, but it doesn't seem Trump or his base see it that way. Surely many don't realize that people born in Puerto Rico are US citizens, but even the ones that do just don't consider them full and equal citizens. Then think of how your own intuitions about their moral worth would change if Puerto Rico were made a full state, or spun off as an independent nation. It just seems weird to give any moral weight to such changes, when the people don't change, the society doesn't change. The change could be entirely on paper, and patriotism would seem to demand giving it some metaphysical status that is undeserved.

I know, I'm being naive, and that there's a real meaning in intersubjective realities like 'citizenship' and 'country', but I find them poorly supported, and would prefer to de-emphasize them relative to more objective criteria like mutually beneficial cooperation, shared humanity, and the common predicament of sentient life.


Well, there's prioritization.

1)My Family - wife/kids (deepest of love, self sacrifice if needed)
2)Me
3)my other family (sisters brothers)
3)Friends/coworkers/acquaintances - people I interact with on a personal level
4)Neighbors around my home
5)Town/County/State/general vicinity/Country
6)World - Unconditional love

I don't have a problem with people who come here who want to live with us, and their extent of their struggles. Globally, I am a humanist. That doesn't mean I am not a patriot either, but there is a direct relationship to who I care about to what extent and their impact on my priorities. That's not to say patriotism means that I want others to fail so that we can exceed.

But if I were president, of course, my priorities would be all citizens.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby tentative » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:01 pm

WendyDarling wrote:
tentative wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:It amounts to stupid liberal beliefs that are made in their minds and not in reality.


Only true in your alternate reality... :-"


I share a physical reality, made of the blood and sweat of actual people and objects such as a national flag that represent their efforts to accomplish specific goals, like military action used to claim our lands as sovereign from Britain and all threats, with real patriotism where people put their money where their mouths are, not some idealistic fantasy world of how one ought to live that steals from other humans, symbols, and events, namely the military, the flag and anthem, and deaths in battle, to gain it's validity. Liberals are always misappropriating people, symbols, and objects for ulterior causes trying to give their bullshit causes legitimacy.


Wendy, you have decided that only military connections can represent the flag and anthem. Such a narrow viewpoint. But it makes it easy to define all those "others" doesn't it? Sail on. I've nothing further to discuss with you. Whatever you say, have it your way.
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Sorry, arguing with the ignorant is like trying to wrestle with a jellyfish. No matter how many tentacles you cut off there are always more, and there isn't even a brain to stun. - Maia

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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:04 pm

Right is right.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:09 pm

Colin made the symbol of kneeling during the national anthem. He defined what he meant by his symbol. Nobody else can define what he meant, by what he meant.
So other people don't know that or don't believe that's the scope of the gesture or that it can be so limited.

And now the scope has grown since it's no longer just one specific incident. Now, it's also about Trump. :confusion-shrug:
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"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Carleas » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:16 pm

I did interpret the recent wave of kneeling as intending something different from the initial act by Kaepernick, though I don't think it was so much anti-Trump as a demonstration of solidarity for the right to speak and protest (which was incidentally opposed to Trump's position that football players should have no right to express political opinions, and should be fired for attempting to do so).
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WW_III_ANGRY » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:26 pm

Yes that's true, and I think that's been communicated as well and understood fairly well, except for those that are polarized on the right
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:29 pm

Carleas wrote:I did interpret the recent wave of kneeling as intending something different from the initial act by Kaepernick, though I don't think it was so much anti-Trump as a demonstration of solidarity for the right to speak and protest (which was incidentally opposed to Trump's position that football players should have no right to express political opinions, and should be fired for attempting to do so).
That "right to speak and protest" was there at the original incident. In fact, I noticed that lots of the discussions ignored the police treatment of blacks and instead focused on things like "what can a contract athlete do", "is it legitimate for a wealthy athlete to criticize the system that pays him", etc.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Carleas » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:42 pm

In the discussion surrounding it, I agree, but I meant just in the intent of the players. Kaepernick's intent in doing what he did probably wasn't to start a discussion about his right to do what he did. He acted in protest of the government, and in the ensuing discussion people questioned his right to do so and the legitimacy of his protest. The second wave of protests, by contrast, was intended to be about that discussion.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:54 pm

Yes, let's discuss the government's stance on violence and it only condones violence in cases of public safety, war, and self-defense. The most recent incident with a football player and the police who tackled him outside of a bar had to do with the player fleeing the scene of a crime once the police entered the bar? Can people up and flee from a police investigation?

I'd very much like to discuss the facts that led to the initial bent knee. Let's discuss the specifics of what set this whole fiasco off for I'd very much enjoy proving that this entire enterprise of protest is not founded on any factual cases of white on black police brutality, it's based on emotional reactions to deceptions propagated by a divisive media.
Last edited by WendyDarling on Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:04 pm

Yes, let's discuss the government's stance on violence and it only condones violence in cases of public safety, war, and self-defense.
That's not saying much since all totalitarian states make the same claim - concentration camps, death squads, secret police, torture, etc are all there purely for noble reasons.
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:09 pm

The USA which is what we are talking about has enacted those travesties just to pass the time?
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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