Patriotism

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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:19 pm

WendyDarling wrote:The USA which is what we are talking about has enacted those travesties just to pass the time?
Your statement suggested that all violence used by the state is always fair and correct. But blacks claim that the police do not treat them fairly. So how do you respond to their claim? It's certainly possible that some state violence is unfair and morally wrong. When is it unfair and wrong?
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Carleas » Tue Sep 26, 2017 10:42 pm

Wendy, I think your methodology for approaching the question of race-biased police violence is flawed. You point to anecdotes, but those tell you basically nothing about what's going on -- and note this cuts both ways: anecdotes are emotional and rhetorical, and both sides use them as such.

But if you look at the rate at which blacks vs. whites are killed in police custody, targeted by police, get justice for police misconduct, are sentenced to death at trial, etc. etc., there are pretty clear statistical trends that support the narrative that racial bias plays a role. That's different from saying every police killing is solely attributable to racism. It's a more modest claim: across all society, black people face a disproportionate burden from unjust and unwarranted police violence.

I found this rundown of studies on the issue to be surprisingly good, providing a good set of summaries with references from reputable sources, pointing out some weaknesses, and including some studies that found no bias. And I'm sure we can come up with additional flaws and with hypotheses that fit these findings without using racial bias as an explanation. But they should move your priors, and this is a much better place to start than a handful of anecdotes.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby Is_Yde_opN » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:11 pm



Sounds racist because it doesn't validate the ethno-masochism among Whites.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:49 pm

Carleas wrote:Wendy, I think your methodology for approaching the question of race-biased police violence is flawed. You point to anecdotes, but those tell you basically nothing about what's going on -- and note this cuts both ways: anecdotes are emotional and rhetorical, and both sides use them as such.

But if you look at the rate at which blacks vs. whites are killed in police custody, targeted by police, get justice for police misconduct, are sentenced to death at trial, etc. etc., there are pretty clear statistical trends that support the narrative that racial bias plays a role. That's different from saying every police killing is solely attributable to racism. It's a more modest claim: across all society, black people face a disproportionate burden from unjust and unwarranted police violence.

I found this rundown of studies on the issue to be surprisingly good, providing a good set of summaries with references from reputable sources, pointing out some weaknesses, and including some studies that found no bias. And I'm sure we can come up with additional flaws and with hypotheses that fit these findings without using racial bias as an explanation. But they should move your priors, and this is a much better place to start than a handful of anecdotes.

Start a thread that highlights the article. I have much to make mention of and this is your evidence which I will gladly pick apart in light of a debate.

If blacks commit more crimes and are arrested for those crimes, then there would be disparities between the number of whites and blacks killed in police custody, identified as perpetrators (rather than targeted by police), and are sentenced to death (they commit more homicides than whites)based solely on their rates of criminal behavior. Whoever commits more crime is going to have the highest incidents in all aspects of the criminal justice system. If black Americans abided by the laws and listened to the police, the numbers of what you are trying to justify as bias would disappear.

Also, what anecdotes are you referring to?
Last edited by WendyDarling on Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:52 pm

phyllo wrote:
WendyDarling wrote:The USA which is what we are talking about has enacted those travesties just to pass the time?
Your statement suggested that all violence used by the state is always fair and correct. But blacks claim that the police do not treat them fairly. So how do you respond to their claim? It's certainly possible that some state violence is unfair and morally wrong. When is it unfair and wrong?

I only made a general comment on what types of violence the government condones, done by the government, public servants of the government, and its citizens. You are the one who brought up injustices enacted by other governments which has nothing to do with the USA.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:02 am

I only made a general comment on what types of violence the government condones, done by the government, public servants of the government, and its citizens. You are the one who brought up injustices enacted by other governments which has nothing to do with the USA.
I only pointed out that every government considers their use of violence to be essential for public safety. For some reason you call some of it "injustice". Why is some of it injustice and some of it not injustice?
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:17 am

Sorry, those were all just examples of yours. Happy?

You cited specifics for a reason, I get it, but what I cited as violence that the USA government condones are not confined to the government itself or enacted by the government only which you failed to notice. Self defense types of violence may be enacted by citizens and probably wartime behaviors would be condoned for every citizen during an invasion by an outside force.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:01 am

WendyDarling wrote:Sorry, those were all just examples of yours. Happy?

You cited specifics for a reason, I get it, but what I cited as violence that the USA government condones are not confined to the government itself or enacted by the government only which you failed to notice. Self defense types of violence may be enacted by citizens and probably wartime behaviors would be condoned for every citizen during an invasion by an outside force.
I have not idea why you think that this matters. :-?
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:07 am

You don't have any clue what matters to an American when you are a Canadian, but you sure act like you do. :evilfun:

This entire discussion regarding patriotism revolves around a protest against violence.
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby phyllo » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:06 am

You don't have any clue what matters to an American when you are a Canadian, but you sure act like you do. :evilfun:
Maybe I can look at it more objectively than an American because I don't have the same emotional attachments.
This entire discussion regarding patriotism revolves around a protest against violence.
Oh, the entire discussion revolves around that, does it. :D
"Only the educated are free" - Epictetus
"Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy" -Beethoven
"Everyday life is the way" -Wumen
"Do not permit the events of your daily life to bind you, but never withdraw yourself from them" - Wumen
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Re: Patriotism

Postby WendyDarling » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:08 am

A fact, Jack! :evilfun:
I AM OFFICIALLY IN HELL!

I live my philosophy, it's personal to me and people who engage where I live establish an unspoken dynamic, a relationship of sorts, with me and my philosophy.

Cutting folks for sport is a reality for the poor in spirit. I myself only cut the poor in spirit on Tues., Thurs., and every other Sat.
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Re: Patriotism

Postby demoralized » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:10 am

the nfl issue is being argued as apples vs oranges in the media

apple: blacks are unfairly targeted by police and one protests
orange: kneeling during the anthem is obscene

"why are they kneeling?" appears ignored by one side
"why aren't they respecting the flag?" appears ignored by the other
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