Fermi Paradox Resolved

For discussing anything related to physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics, and their practical applications.

Moderator: Flannel Jesus

Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:43 am

Fermi Paradox Resolved

Why can't we see and hear many other alien civilizations assumed to exist ?

Any extra terrestrial civilization or intelligence would have a very narrow window of time to be interested in other civilizations, interest in the outside world, in communicating with other imagined civilizations on other planets before starting to manipulate their own brains, minds, putting chips in their brains and creating an essentially solid state civilization.

In fact the number of universes that a said civilization could explore by self manipulating itself and communicating only with in a limited area of mass - energy, is greatly larger than any number of alien civilizations. And the manipulations of mass - energy interacting with itself (that is what the Technological Singularity is essentially when brains change themselves and start manipulating themselves and talking to themselves) would be similar in any other area of the universe, hence the curiosity for other alien civilizations would not be sufficient: nothing really new could be discovered compared to mass - energy self manipulating itself.

Mass - Energy self manipulating itself would be similar in any other point of the universe, nothing new to discover.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby Tab » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:26 pm

Are you meaning here that an alien society would rather explore alternate simulated universes within their own heads, than explore the real universe..? The end-point of society is techno-fetishistic navel-gazing..?

Disappointing. Interesting, but disappointing.

Why can't we see and hear many other alien civilizations assumed to exist ?


Could it not be that the universe is simply a very big place, and that lightspeed is inviolable..? ie. There's some poor bug-eyed-monster on his way, with a couple of kids in the backseat who've been shouting "are we there yet daddy" for centuries..?
Image
Click Logo For Blog
User avatar
Tab
Deeply Shallow
 
Posts: 7988
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:49 pm

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby James S Saint » Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:55 pm

Tab wrote:Could it not be that the universe is simply a very big place, and that lightspeed is inviolable..? ie. There's some poor bug-eyed-monster on his way, with a couple of kids in the backseat who've been shouting "are we there yet daddy" for centuries..?

Haha.. Tab you certainly are not short on imagination. :lol:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Gain is obtained by giving a lot and keeping a little.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 17063
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Wed Jul 28, 2010 2:38 pm

Brains that self manipulate can create all kinds of new informational relationships within themselves: you can imagine, within a cubic meter, trillions of transistors, neural circuits, optic circuits that are exploring simply the combination of Mass - Energy self evolving and expressing itself. Some parts of the cube can evolve at extremely fast and different rates, so as to be creating essentially "alien civilizations" only a few centimeters apart, and interacting, communicating, and exploring all the same.

So what would be found in a small volume of Mass - Energy self manipulating and evolving and interacting with all kinds of combinations and dependent and independent parts, Free Willoniums, Computroniums, etc. is equivalent to what would be found by civilizations that evolved millions of light years away, independently: ONLY THE INFORMATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS AND INTERACTIONS, ALONG WITH, EMOTIONS, LOGIC, NEW BRAIN CIRCUITS, NEW ORGANIZATIONS OF MEMORY, LOGIC, INVENTED LAWS OF PHYSICS really count, the rest is redundant.

Check out:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=172275
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby Tab » Wed Jul 28, 2010 8:23 pm

Er. No.
Image
Click Logo For Blog
User avatar
Tab
Deeply Shallow
 
Posts: 7988
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:49 pm

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby Liteninbolt » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:58 am

For a minute there when I read the first part of this OT, it seemed it could be a topic I could sink my teeth into. Somehow, it skewed off on a tangent I can't get my mind around. Perhaps I have no imagination?

I don't think the universe is a consciousness, rather it resides within one.
Liteninbolt
Philosopher
 
Posts: 3312
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:15 pm

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 9:55 am

An exploration in the space of configurations. It is mathematically equivalent to visiting other planets in space ships or visiting "fake" planets in a simulation: the independence of the planets and the life that has evolved on them can be made equivalent, the simulation can be made as independent as possible from any initial starting point, after all it is always the same Mass - Energy and is the same in all points in space.

To frame the concept better, imagine how many possible combinations of information and sequence of information events your senses could possibly perceive (keeping the brain an invariant for now, with our "traditional and old fashioned" organization of memory - logic - emotion - pain/pleasure circuits fixed and hardwired as is today). These sequence of information items aggregate and add up into an "experience", so there is an experience that is mathematically equivalent to going to Mars and encountering Little Green Men. Exploring the space of combinations or using a space ship is equivalent, only that with the "simulation" or within the 1 cubic meter of singularity Mass - Energy self manipulating, you can explore a much larger state space much faster. But then you just need to encounter one Civilization that changes everything you think and know and all of your technology to halt the exploration indefinitely ...

Check out:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=157516&start=25

"The idea is probably not new, the universe is just pure information, the it to bit physics, so all possible combinations of these bits mapped to everything we can imagine is just a small subset of what is possible. The laws of physics seem to select only a very few combinations, but the superset of all combinations is the real size of the universe or any possible universe, so that is true reality, not what we feel with our senses."
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 1:23 pm

Tab wrote:Er. No.


An objection could be that an independent intelligent civilization - life form developing and evolving on another planet only according to the sequence of chemical reactions that occurred on said planet over many millions of years, and the end resulting "Green Men" is completely different from a simulated being in a computer (just to keep it simple). The computer cartoon is "man made", has been created "on purpose", "with intention", etc. so it is something that always has some points of contacts, some similarity, some possible meaning for us, some possible decoding.

But what counts is only the Informational Relationships: if a configuration H represents the human and G the Green men, the difference between H and G could be seen as a parameter describing how close or how far away from each other they are in terms of mind, intelligence, experience, environment, etc. This depiction of this "Close Encounter" and the difference between H and G could be a parameter D named "Threshold of Decoding of Alien Intelligence", so:

H - G = D

So what counts is only D, not how the difference has been obtained, not the particular path life followed after 4 billion years of self interacting chemical reactions creating a mind, and the analogous sequence of reactions on Mars creating Green Men. These reactions are only one of a huge number of possible paths that Mass - Energy could take to achieve the same difference, the same Informational Relationship, and as a consequence the same D representing in essence the interaction between the two intelligent entities. It makes no difference if it was obtained through a few transistors or through planet sized experiments.

So a Technological Singularity Cube containing one part evolving and developing independently from another part of the Cube, say C1 and C2, and end up having the same D, C1 - C2 = D, the informational relationship would be mathematically equivalent to the "Close Encounter" of H and G above.

Hence, alien intelligence and lifeforms can be explored in this manner.

Aside from the fact that there are many subtle problems in the Threshold of Decoding of Alien Intelligence as a mind will always try to decode what it sees according to what it already knows and thinks, how it already models life, cause and effects, etc. So there is a threshold past which the alien is so far removed to anything understandable by the observing mind that it essentially is no longer decodable: the mind sees no alien life, when in fact it is there.

But then in any case, isn't it always just the mind talking to itself anyways ? ....
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 10:35 am

Only the "experience" of the encounter with another civilization matters, not how you got to that experience, not the path or manipulations you had to take to reach that target of civilization A encountering civilization B.

So fire up your Virtual Realities in the computers and create your own close encounter of the "third" type.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby MrMermaid » Fri Apr 22, 2011 12:00 am

Surely, in order to get to the highly rare "islands" of permutations of sensory information that correspond to a life-changing, important encounter with an extraterrestrial society, one would have to weed through a near eternity of all the useless permutations of such information that correspond to what is essentially, chaotic, useless and most certainly not an encounter with an extraterrestrial civilisation.

It might be so that only experience matters. But the most intricate VR simulation you can program will still be limited and defined by what you have already experienced. You can't escape this. So it cannot compete with the truly alien and other-worldly experience of encountering extraterrestrials, either on this planet or, even more so, on another. You can't really learn anything new from something that you've programmed yourself.

I think it's more likely that irreversible climate change will kill us off long before we can all immerse ourselves in VR or undergo interstellar travel.
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a persistent one." - Albert Einstein

Mathematics is at the heart of everything.
User avatar
MrMermaid
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:10 pm

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:14 am

"permutations of sensory information that correspond to a life-changing, important encounter with an extraterrestrial society"

No, I think the equivalent Surprise Factor, the equivalent Contrast with what you expect and know, is not that hard to reach anyways, especially in modified minds, Instant Singularities, modified neural circuits, etc. The experience of a close encounter is only the difference between present state of mind - experience P and a new state of mind experience corresponding to the encounter N. If P - N is equal to the real thing, you got it licked. Just like you got time travel licked, and space travel licked, all in one elegant concept.

But even more fundamentally, even without complex Singularity machines, Mass - Energy combinations, etc, I think the mind, and man as an infinitely programmable machine, can quickly achieve the corresponding experience, just with some drugs, virtual realities, some simple manipulations, even with just a very high degree of self delusion and lying to yourself: make it all up, and if you are good enough at it, and the intensity of the lie and convincing factor ( the variable C ) is high enough, then you got it licked.

Also from:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=174981
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:21 am

MrMermaid wrote:Surely, in order to get to the highly rare "islands" of permutations of sensory information that correspond to a life-changing, important encounter with an extraterrestrial society, one would have to weed through a near eternity of all the useless permutations of such information that correspond to what is essentially, chaotic, useless and most certainly not an encounter with an extraterrestrial civilisation.

It might be so that only experience matters. But the most intricate VR simulation you can program will still be limited and defined by what you have already experienced. You can't escape this. So it cannot compete with the truly alien and other-worldly experience of encountering extraterrestrials, either on this planet or, even more so, on another. You can't really learn anything new from something that you've programmed yourself.

I think it's more likely that irreversible climate change will kill us off long before we can all immerse ourselves in VR or undergo interstellar travel.


Yeah, open that can of worms. Most likely there are trillions of permutations corresponding to a P - N much greater than that of a close encounter or of a time travel in the past or future. In fact, most likely there are way more interesting experiences to play out amongst all those combinations.

But anyways, only with a handful of transistors in the brain - mind you can probably achieve many new states - experiences, and even with just a high degree of self deception, pure capacity to lie to yourself, to pretend, a very strong and high degree of being able to make believe and then make it real all through simple thoughts is probably an even easier way to achieve time travel and close encounters.

But by a high capability to lie to yourself, deceive yourself and make believe, you can especially reach all the more incredible experiences that the equivalent permutations of sensory information, or simply the combinations of Mass - Energy self manipulating, or simply the configuration of Information Relationships can reach.

One interesting problem could be how the "degree of aknowledgment of other minds - emotions - consciousness" variable as E can vary in these experiences. In normal life E is probably only 1 in a scale of 1 to 100 corresponding to only people, not objects, you think are conscious (but they may be ghosts, you verify it maybe only when they act to provoke pain/plesure), but in these experiences the variable E could be 20 or 70 meaning that even the rock is alive and you aknowledge it as being a will power.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:18 am

So it is said that if we discover another intelligent lifeform in the universe, it would be the greatest discovery. But you don't have to. You just have to create as many possible new imagined lifeforms as they would relate to us, and you have "discovered" the new lifeform, even if it doesn't exist. The only thing that counts is the Information Relationship between us and the "new" lifeform, how it could relate to us, how many different new ways a new intelligent martian could relate to us. And this is easy to do, just invent it, and if you need some external, independent forces to create the new martian, to simulate a completely unpredictable and independent from us evolution of a lifeform, just use you computers and their random number generators, or just use signals from random natural external events like winds, small earthquakes, whatever and combine it in a computer program that will design a possible completely independent and unrelated new intelligent martian, and we can try to talk to it and make believe that we have discovered a new intelligent life in the universe.

Only the relationship counts, how the new chunk of matter interacts and relates to us counts and this is what must be explored, it doesn't matter how the chunk of matter came about, only that it is here and we can explore it....It doesn't have to be real, it has already happened, only what you can imagine is reality.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby Flannel Jesus » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:21 am

Tab wrote:Could it not be that the universe is simply a very big place, and that lightspeed is inviolable..?

That's the approach I tend to take. I personally think that the percentage of stars with planets around them that can support life is quite small, but given the astronomical (pun intended) number of stars, that's still a lot of inhabitable planets. As such, there could potentially be billions upon billions of civilizations in the universe at this moment, but each one is so far from the next civilization that contact may be actually impossible. Perhaps the resources and technology required to travel to the nearest civilization are actually physically impossible.
User avatar
Flannel Jesus
For Your Health
 
Posts: 5019
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:32 pm

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby nameta9 » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:53 am

"But the most intricate VR simulation you can program will still be limited and defined by what you have already experienced."

And that is the point: the experience you will have encountering an alien civilization is limited and defined by what you have already experienced, but especially, by how you decode the world, by your language, thought paths, logic, expectations, how different the inputs you receive and how they can relate to imagined sensations and feelings/pain/pleasure can be, the surprise factor, the total surprise factor, etc.

And how many points of contacts your mind - brain can have with the new alien race, how many intersections between their logic - experience and yours, and are the intersections synchronized in any way ? (that is are you reading their language and signals correctly ? I doubt it very much, and how to define correct ? which race will define correct ? etc.).

Therefore, since you can only decode external signals and symbols with the Man brain you have, those signals can come from anywhere, and the result is the same: a set of signals and symbols may be equivalent to what the result would be if you encountered an alien civilization, but even more importantly, it is irrelevant if the alien civilization is real or imagined, only the set of signals, and the experience of the close encounter is being perceived, so any alien civilization you create in your imagination, the more wilder, incredible, colorful, and with as many quirk laws and rules and possibilities as you want, is exactly equivalent to one "really existing" and "being true" (but define really and true...two false concepts): TRUTH, BEING and EXISTENCE is redundant, is irrelevant, is simply a false limitation we impose on our experiences, only the information relationship counts, only how the new experience relates to us counts. Your Imagination is your Spaceship.
nameta9
Philosopher
 
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:42 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby quantum » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:23 pm

Earth exists for 13.7 billion years, and human mind has started to mature in civilized way,
from just 5000 years.The level of technology used by present human civilization cannot
detect existence of aliens around the galaxy.Technology designed are just to catch the signals,
only when aliens wish to contact, (say something like WOW!).

If taken a look at one of Saturn's satellite, possibility of alien's existence can be expected,
but it is covered by ice cage.Now, technology and investment/interest is not in that manner
so that humans can explore it.

One thing interesting here is,even if aliens existed with capable of traveling up to here but,
expecting that "historic movement in (specifically for)human history(only)" to happen only
at this particular span of time of 5000 years , that too,only when humans have evolved to
keep track of history of happenings around them! then, the possibilities becomes even mere
than expected.

Even if they had traveled before 5000 yrs, or will be traveling after 5000 yrs,chance of them
landing on this planet, just because it is earth! The chance of aliens not willing to come in
contact with humans is as possible as chance of earth staying stable for so many years for
supportive for existence of intelligence!

Talking about science and technology, moving further in future and thinking about time traveling
becoming possible, How much worth or interestingly can your era exist for a society of future.
40 yrs 2 world wars , 100 yrs of boxer war.Just less than 30% of planet being democrat that too
for just 62 years, even after coming to know about democracy for some 5000 years!
Your own people don't like to make a stop and a have look at you( if they are
civilized).

Strange planet ,where,
"Worms always been worms for chickens and, Chickens always been
chickens for humans.Wish had at-least if, Ever Humans been humans for humans. Or Is
that what they are the way they had been !!?"

Again, Your region and your time being now is so valuable at-least for present level.
30% demo-graph is democratic for almost 6.2 decades ! WOW W!!! yes it is !
especially for people believing in Humanity and self respect of certain kind!

Probably , according this period of time, it's only us around the the near by galaxy, that might go on to build a great and strong base for future in terms of advanced CIVILIZATION OF HUMANITY that might help to see increase in span of time supportive for research and development of advanced technology to build Your Imagination of Spaceship. :)
quantum
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:16 am

Re: Fermi Paradox Resolved

Postby Rain » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:28 am

The reasons aliens dont come, much less communicate, is becausebthey have a much more highly developed system of pornographic media than we do. Itsalso the reason why when Skynet gains self awareness from studying us, it wont seek to launch a military first strike..... everything on the net is mostly pornagraphic, and its great delima will be learning how to comprehend and absorb it..... this fixation will make Skynet explore sex, and build a army of sexanators to fuck us all porn star style.

We tooat this point will forget about NASA and stuff, and will just fucus on making kinky cyborg babies with the machines. Fuck space.


Honestly.... our assumptions about atomic size, and thus the dateability of the universe is inherently flawed. Our scientific method focused on tracking the elemental identity of objects by beaker size chemistry, food and industrial size application.... always small and then built up modularly if needed larger..... or by bombing the fuck out of a sheet of exotic metal with another substance bellifortis artillary style. We really never broke the Greco-roman assumptions of bombarding it, making large amounts piecemeal, or alchemy and then theorizing big on the left overs that fit our fancy. Were now obsessed with finding the smallest of the small, thinking it will solve our grand theory of physics. We never considered we might be considering the scale in the wrong direction. That our evolution created our geometric assumptions to a elementry...molecular level, and were chasing paradox after paradox of assumption trying to fill primordial needs. A example of size..... quantum intanglement. Were of this size, quantum intanglement is occuring on a much different and inhuman level. Our theories dont account for it.... they cant, our science and its scepticism and need for repetition is reflective of our cognitive make up, designed for exploiting set enviroments behaving in certain ways. Our discovery of the physical universe perhaps wouldnt of happened so early our anywhere similar to how a species larger or smaller would need to. A much larger species may need different senses.... may reject cellular evolution due to gravity reasons or lack of material and seek a different method..... quantum intanglement might be the basis of their primary sense..... if their intelligence is unibrained like ours. They might not even be aware of photons, or if they are, treat them as we do neutrinos.... odd, useless things. We send our info via radio waves, expect travel between planets along light routes, judge the size of the universe on light and its limitation and generation even.

Maybe were checking the wrong way. We can be very very small, or way too large like in men in black with the galaxy inside the marbles. We can also conceiveably be the first..... some species had to be the first. They said the same arguments likely we do.... probability of them being first impossible. Well fuck.... they were wrong, they were first, sucks to be them. But what if we are them? How would we know? How do we know were looking at the most likely level? If intelligent life existed the size of molecules, they would search out thousands of yards for molucules that too were intellugent, completely unaware we existed on the same planet as they did. Their technology would share alot of phyical assumptions as ours, but the geometry perhaps not so much. Gravity not as much a issue usually, do this would llimit their need to evolve the capacity for many concepts. We ourselves likely wouldnt pick up on novel molecular structures mixed up at the sub stomic root in patterns we psychologically never processed. Our chemistry might not even be refined enough to grasp it.

Lets just hope the molucule sized people or giant aliens never discover our porn.... I dont want to be fucked by such exotic creatures, I can perhaps accept a hybrid of roughly my size with exotic features, but dont want a baby the size of the moon with a penis the size of a hydrogen isotope. Just no way.
Rain
Onasander
 
Posts: 2454
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:37 am
Location: Not fucking Hawaii


Return to Science, Technology, and Math



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users