Interstellar Travel

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Interstellar Travel

Postby Archangel » Sat Jul 16, 2011 8:39 pm

I'd like to know if anyone else is contemplating on this and what conclusions have you made so far? I know that most of mainstream thinkers believe that we will never travel between star systems, and even if we do and if it's possible - that time is centuries and millenniums away. Those who think that such a thing is already doable mostly rely on ion engines or solar sails, neither of which, seems, has any bright future. A truly effective engine should produce an acceleration of about 9,81 N/kg, so the crew could have normal gravity during flight, and the craft should also have protection against space debris like meteors and other obstacles it will surely come across as well as it's own magnetic field for radiation protection (at least 100 microteslas)... A craft with such attributes should not be too difficult to make, the only real issue is the type of propulsion - the best solution, IMO, is a reversible space drive, which could produce constant thrust with little fuel consumption. That means reactive propulsion will probably not be applicable. I have an idea of such a propulsion, but first I'd like to know what other technology connoisseurs have come up with...
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby phyllo » Sat Jul 16, 2011 11:47 pm

Isn't the biggest problem that it takes too long to get anywhere? The closest solar system is 4.36 light-years away.
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:14 am

What i would ask is why would you need to travel to another galaxy?

If we became so populated that we filled a whole galaxy it would seem there would be a ridiculous number of social issues, wars, and it would probably take a very long time for any truly new idea to be accepted...
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jul 17, 2011 12:20 am

If you want to move through water really, really quickly, remove the water from the stern and replace it to the bow.

In space, a similar concept can theoretically be used by reducing the affectance density (that permittivity concern, ε0) in front of the ship and replacing it to the back of the ship. The total energy expenditure would be nil although it would require a hell of a lot on hand. The resultant speed would be near the speed of light limited only by the tendency for the ship stern to disintegrate due to the void of affectance in front of it and the alteration of material properties due to the speed itself.

Come to think of it, you might even exceed the speed of light for the same reason that underwater missiles now exceed the speed of sonar (by that same process). They have missiles that not only travel faster than sonar such as to be undetectable by sonar until it is too late, but also coated with radio stealth sheathing so as to be nearly undetectable by radio as well. Thus if you're in the water, your ass is owned by the US Navy. :mrgreen:

The speed of light is dependent upon the permittivity, ε0 such that if changed, the speed of light "in a vacuum" changes because the degree of vacuum has changed (the effective mass of space has been removed).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Archangel » Sun Jul 17, 2011 4:25 am

James S Saint wrote:If you want to move through water really, really quickly, remove the water from the stern and replace it to the bow.

In space, a similar concept can theoretically be used by reducing the affectance density (that permittivity concern, ε0) in front of the ship and replacing it to the back of the ship.
Yes, that was also my line of thought regarding luminal and transluminal velocities. This actualy equates to a warp drive, bending of space... How would you accomplish this? A system of EM emitters that project a massive ball on the stern?

phyllo wrote: Isn't the biggest problem that it takes too long to get anywhere? The closest solar system is 4.36 light-years away.


It is. But the primary reason I want this issue raised is because there is no other way. The stars are waiting. And if we don't start working on the problem, waiting on some magical solution to drop from the sky (double meaning) - they will keep waiting for Godot... I think that before we run we must first master crawling - start developing sub-luminal drives to acquaint our selves with the whole thing. All we have are theories, but no one has yet experienced near light speeds, so no one really knows what problems need to be addressed...
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Sun Jul 17, 2011 5:46 am

Archangel wrote: How would you accomplish this? A system of EM emitters that project a massive ball on the stern?

Well currently I am a bit stuck at one point in my theorizing so I can only speculate, but so far, it seems that it could be as simple as creating one unimaginably enormous negative field at the stern while doing the opposite at the bow. There might be a way to basically turn the entire ship into almost nothing but a huge dipole. Of course there would be quite a number of problems associated with keeping the separation, perhaps sufficient dielectrics and magnetic barriers. There might be additional problems relating to the disintegration of matter at the stern due to the extreme reduction of permittivity. Matter can't exist below a certain level of affectance (EM base). Also, I haven't looked into the actual affects on time that would come into play. It might be that the crew would have to stay at the bow so as to not age normally.

And then there is the potential of the entire ship not being able to sustain its material existence once too far from "normal space". But I suspect interstellar would be okay. I'm not so certain of intergalactic though. In too great of a spacial vacuum (subspace field), matter disintegrates into the subspace.

Why? You have a hobby in your back yard? O:)
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:01 am

With regards to considering the power necessary to do such and limits on size an what not...it is important to consider that for a trip across galaxies at the speed of light it would still take i think 75 years or more(been a while since i looked into that)...however long(even if a way to travel faster than light was found) you would need to take into consideration the size of the craft needed to support the population that would be traveling, given a large enough amount of time, population growth would need to be considered, limits to prevent population overgrowth, and then aspects of the ship sucha as to allow for comfort, such as gardens and a size such that one doesn't feel cramped or find themselves going nuts...
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Archangel » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:04 pm

James S Saint wrote:Well currently I am a bit stuck at one point in my theorizing so I can only speculate, but so far, it seems that it could be as simple as creating one unimaginably enormous negative field at the stern while doing the opposite at the bow. There might be a way to basically turn the entire ship into almost nothing but a huge dipole. Of course there would be quite a number of problems associated with keeping the separation, perhaps sufficient dielectrics and magnetic barriers.
Sounds like you would need a HUGE power source... I'm not really sure but i don't think it would work - considering all the dipoles we have on Earth (which is also a dipole) still not going anywhere...

Just thought of something - what do you think about scalar waves and zero-point energy? I read a bit about it and their proponents have really high hopes on those two things...
Why? You have a hobby in your back yard? O:)

Actually, I have an alien vessel in my back yard, and i'm slowly stealing it's technology and selling it to the highest bidder - but don't tell anyone... Shhh...
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Archangel » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:17 pm

Abstract wrote:With regards to considering the power necessary to do such and limits on size an what not...it is important to consider that for a trip across galaxies at the speed of light it would still take i think 75 years or more(been a while since i looked into that)...however long(even if a way to travel faster than light was found) you would need to take into consideration the size of the craft needed to support the population that would be traveling, given a large enough amount of time, population growth would need to be considered, limits to prevent population overgrowth, and then aspects of the ship sucha as to allow for comfort, such as gardens and a size such that one doesn't feel cramped or find themselves going nuts...

Looking at it long-term, it might be best to turn the whole planet into a huge vessel - if all attempts to break the light barrier fail, that will probably be the only reasonable thing: it eliminates the problem of relativity completely. Instead of having astronauts fly away and coming back millenniums later while the rest wait - we simply bring the planet with us... :)
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:21 pm

Archangel wrote:
Abstract wrote:With regards to considering the power necessary to do such and limits on size an what not...it is important to consider that for a trip across galaxies at the speed of light it would still take i think 75 years or more(been a while since i looked into that)...however long(even if a way to travel faster than light was found) you would need to take into consideration the size of the craft needed to support the population that would be traveling, given a large enough amount of time, population growth would need to be considered, limits to prevent population overgrowth, and then aspects of the ship sucha as to allow for comfort, such as gardens and a size such that one doesn't feel cramped or find themselves going nuts...

Looking at it long-term, it might be best to turn the whole planet into a huge vessel - if all attempts to break the light barrier fail, that will probably be the only reasonable thing: it eliminates the problem of relativity completely. Instead of having astronauts fly away and coming back millenniums later while the rest wait - we simply bring the planet with us... :)


the problem with that idea is I think you would have to take the sun too... Or it would take a ridiculous amount of power just to sustain life on the planet...still 9and it may be easier then to do it otherwise, less costly on all biases)
And I don't want you moving my planet :D I'm not a space explorer, that would be unfair...
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:40 am

Archangel wrote:Sounds like you would need a HUGE power source... I'm not really sure but i don't think it would work - considering all the dipoles we have on Earth (which is also a dipole) still not going anywhere...

I said you would need a huge power source. But the power is not being expended. And Man has never even seen the scale of dipole that I am talking about, perhaps a 10 ton compressed plasma bottle at the bow and its counterpart at the stern.

Archangel wrote:Just thought of something - what do you think about scalar waves and zero-point energy? I read a bit about it and their proponents have really high hopes on those two things...

Oh, those are my babies. :mrgreen:
I deal in subspace affectance which is all about what they are calling zero-point energy and scalar fields (and vector fields).
But a common misunderstanding is that the affectance field offers a huge amount of energy. It doesn't. It only provides endless energy, but extremely small amounts. If one were to establish a subspace field, he could then use it to do a variety of things including disintegrating matter and thereby obtain a portion of the energy released. But the energy that emerges from subspace is infinitesimal.
Archangel wrote: Actually, I have an alien vessel in my back yard, and i'm slowly stealing it's technology and selling it to the highest bidder - but don't tell anyone... Shhh...

Your kidding? :o
Mine was stolen some time back. Your not selling MY PARTS are you?!?! :evil:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:17 am

James S Saint wrote:
Archangel wrote:Sounds like you would need a HUGE power source... I'm not really sure but i don't think it would work - considering all the dipoles we have on Earth (which is also a dipole) still not going anywhere...

I said you would need a huge power source. But the power is not being expended. And Man has never even seen the scale of dipole that I am talking about, perhaps a 10 ton compressed plasma bottle at the bow and its counterpart at the stern.

Surely it would expend energy...just really really really really slowly...?
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:25 am

Abstract wrote:
James S Saint wrote:
Archangel wrote:Sounds like you would need a HUGE power source... I'm not really sure but i don't think it would work - considering all the dipoles we have on Earth (which is also a dipole) still not going anywhere...

I said you would need a huge power source. But the power is not being expended. And Man has never even seen the scale of dipole that I am talking about, perhaps a 10 ton compressed plasma bottle at the bow and its counterpart at the stern.

Surely it would expend energy...just really really really really slowly...?

Well initial propulsion isn't so much the issue as obtaining near light speed, especially if you can arrange for higher speed without having to compensate for the inertia (which is what such a dipole would be doing if it did turn out to be that simple). Once acceleration has been accomplished, there is little need of more power other than to compensate for losses or to get back up to speed after a short roadside restroom break.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:27 am

James S Saint wrote:Well initial propulsion isn't so much the issue as obtaining near light speed, especially if you can arrange for higher speed without having to compensate for the inertia (which is what such a dipole would be doing if it did turn out to be that simple). Once acceleration has been accomplished, there is little need of more power other than to compensate for losses or to get back up to speed after a short roadside restroom break.

in other words most of the energy would be spent in gaining momentum?
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:29 am

right.

..well and initially producing the field.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:17 am

And btw, space is necessarily describable as an infinite matrix of infinite series', much like an infinite matrix of Fourier series except unlike a Fourier series, there must be a single scalar followed by an infinite series of vectors.

Each point in space can be (for practical modeling), expressed as [p, v, m], the first 3 of the series.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:41 am

James S Saint wrote:And btw, space is necessarily describable as an infinite matrix of infinite series', much like an infinite matrix of Fourier series except unlike a Fourier series, there must be a single scalar followed by an infinite series of vectors.

Each point in space can be (for practical modeling), expressed as [p, v, m], the first 3 of the series.

This sparked a question...could space be filled infinitely, or is there a limit to the degree of filling by volume or something...?
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Mon Jul 18, 2011 2:41 pm

Abstract wrote:
James S Saint wrote:And btw, space is necessarily describable as an infinite matrix of infinite series', much like an infinite matrix of Fourier series except unlike a Fourier series, there must be a single scalar followed by an infinite series of vectors.

Each point in space can be (for practical modeling), expressed as [p, v, m], the first 3 of the series.

This sparked a question...could space be filled infinitely, or is there a limit to the degree of filling by volume or something...?

Space is caused by the "energy" that fills it. In a sense, it is the space that fills energy, not energy that fills space.
It is impossible for energy to not exist everywhere - infinitely. Without energy, there is no "where" for anything to exist.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby lizbethrose » Tue Jul 19, 2011 5:29 am

Since space is a near void (we don't exactly know that) and since Einstein has told us that only light can achieve the speed of light, I'd say the only answer is in Dylithium Crystals. But you'd have to first discover the properties of dylithium crystals to determine if they would, in fact, give you the propulsion needed and then you'd have to find a source for them--hopefully on a planet that doesn't rely on slave labor.

Also needed would be navigational skills to make constant corrections between your velocity and the velocity of the ever-expanding universe. Then there's the question of, if you get to your goal in space-time, can you come back to your original departure point without reversing time. That may be another navigational problem.
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:35 am

James S Saint wrote:
Abstract wrote:
James S Saint wrote:And btw, space is necessarily describable as an infinite matrix of infinite series', much like an infinite matrix of Fourier series except unlike a Fourier series, there must be a single scalar followed by an infinite series of vectors.

Each point in space can be (for practical modeling), expressed as [p, v, m], the first 3 of the series.

This sparked a question...could space be filled infinitely, or is there a limit to the degree of filling by volume or something...?

Space is caused by the "energy" that fills it. In a sense, it is the space that fills energy, not energy that fills space.
It is impossible for energy to not exist everywhere - infinitely. Without energy, there is no "where" for anything to exist.

but then could there be an infinite amount of energy in one point relative to more energy still being elsewhere..?
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:37 am

James sorry about what i said in that other thread if it offended you deeply...
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Archangel » Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:11 pm

A while back I outlined my idea of a spacecraft which could reach great distances without tremendous energy consumption. Since i'd hate translating the whole thing, i'll post the link so if you're in the mood - check it out!

Space Drive

The sketches themselves should be clear enough, even without google-translating the page. If they're not - i'm here to clarify...

James S Saint wrote:
Archangel wrote: Actually, I have an alien vessel in my back yard, and i'm slowly stealing it's technology and selling it to the highest bidder - but don't tell anyone... Shhh...

Your kidding? :o
Mine was stolen some time back. Your not selling MY PARTS, are you?
Why, you're missing some parts? Bummer...! :(
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby James S Saint » Wed Jul 20, 2011 8:28 pm

Abstract wrote:James sorry about what i said in that other thread if it offended you deeply...

Emm.. I don't know to what you are referring, but if you think you said something that offended me, SHAME on you. [-X
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Abstract » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:05 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Abstract wrote:James sorry about what i said in that other thread if it offended you deeply...

Emm.. I don't know to what you are referring, but if you think you said something that offended me, SHAME on you. [-X

Good enough.
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Re: Interstellar Travel

Postby Archangel » Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:25 pm

Now that i finally found time and actually remembered this topic, i shall try to clarify what my spacecraft would be like.

Image

We can see in the figure above that the driving force is created via changing the radius of rotation of the flywheels' barycenters (centers of mass) in relation to the center of the rotating discs. The area hatched in red represents the intensities (not vectors)of the redundant centrifugal force created on the 3pi/2 - pi/2 segment, which forces the entire assembly to move. This is still just an idea, but I'm over 99% sure that this vehicle could ascend from the surface of the earth, and after leaving the intense gravitational field continue to effectively accelerate without any restrictions.

Theoretically, if faster-than-light speeds are possible, it should, without major problems, after some time (eg one year of flight) reach and exceed the speed of light, but this is still in question. The problem is that, according to the original idea, the driving energy would be electric current and if it did reach the speed of light it is likely that the entire system would shut down, because the craft would try to exceed the speed of electrical charge propagation.

However, even with that, this type of propulsion has several indisputable advantages: doesn't need large amounts of fuel, there is practically no interaction between the assembly and the environment, doesn't pollute, and - it could fly over or even land in someone's flower garden without disturbing the dust on the plants.

Details still to be worked out: characteristics and performance of transmission, friction minimalization, types of material used, material strains and vertical control. Regarding the stress of the materials, according to my preliminary calculations, it wouldn't be too excessive, it should be far less than the stress produced by Petrus' rotary ring, and immeasurably more energy-efficient. Carbon fiber technology, of course, is always welcome, but it might be sufficient and far more cost-effective to use a steel alloy, like tempered martensite or silicon-manganese steel. For successful transfer of energy from the engine (electromotor) to the flywheels all the rotations must be strictly controlled, otherwise energy will dissipate and the driving force will be either very low or non-existent. The trick is that all moving parts must have the same angular velocity and

This principle of operation is technically flexible, and there are many variations in utilizing the excess spin. The figure below shows a more advanced and simpler form of the same basic propulsion principle.

Image

To drive the "rotating mass" we could use electromagnets, like in ultra-fast trains.

All in all, this is pretty much how the final product would look like:

Image
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