Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

For discussing anything related to physics, biology, chemistry, mathematics, and their practical applications.

Moderator: Flannel Jesus

Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby TheJoker » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:12 am

Is cyclical time theory or eternal return possible when it concerns the universe? What are other people's opinion on this? I think it is possible if there is no beginning or end of the universe especially if existence itself is infinite.

If the universe is infinite patterns are bound to repeat over and over again.

I try to live my life on the basis of eternal return.


Eternal return (also known as "eternal recurrence") is a concept which posits that the universe has been recurring, and will continue to recur, in a self-similar form an infinite number of times across infinite time and/or infinite space. The concept initially inherent in Indian philosophy was later found in ancient Egypt, and was subsequently taken up by the Pythagoreans and Stoics. With the decline of antiquity and the spread of Christianity, the concept fell into disuse in the western world, though Friedrich Nietzsche resurrected it as a thought experiment to argue for amor fati.

In addition, the philosophical concept of eternal recurrence was addressed by Arthur Schopenhauer. It is a purely physical concept, involving no supernatural reincarnation, but the return of beings in the same bodies. Time is viewed as being not linear but cyclical.


The basic premise proceeds from the assumption that the probability of a world coming into existence exactly like our own is finite. If either time or space are infinite then mathematics tells us that our existence will recur an infinite number of times.

In 1871, Louis Auguste Blanqui, assuming a Newtonian cosmology where time and space are infinite proceeded to show that the eternal recurrence was a mathematical certainty.[1] In the post-Einstein period, there are doubts that time or space is in fact infinite, but many models exist which provide the notion of spatial or temporal infinity required by the eternal return hypothesis.

The oscillatory universe model in physics could be provided as an example of how the universe cycles through the same events infinitely. Stephen Hawking's concept "arrow of time", for example, discuss cosmology as proceeding up to a certain point, after which it undergoes a time reversal (which, as a consequence of T-symmetry, is thought to bring about a chaotic state due to entropy).[citation needed] Hawking and J. Richard Gott have also proposed models by which a/the universe could undergo time travel, provided the balance between mass and energy created the appropriate cosmological geometry.[citation needed]

Multiverse hypotheses in physics describe models where space and or time is infinite, although local universes with their own big bangs could be finite space-time bubbles.


The symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake or dragon devouring its own tail, is the alchemical symbol par excellence of eternal recurrence, possibly borrowed from the Norse concept of Jörmungandr or the Midgard Serpent. The alchemist-physicians of the Renaissance and Reformation were aware of the idea of eternal recurrence; the physician-philosopher Sir Thomas Browne in his A Letter to a Friend circa 1657 linked the Uroboros symbol with the idea of eternal return thus -

that the first day should make the last, that the Tail of the Snake should return into its Mouth precisely at that time, and they should wind up upon the day of their Nativity, is indeed a remarkable Coincidence, which tho Astrology hath taken witty pains to salve, yet hath it been very wary in making Predictions of it.



[T]ime is infinite, but the things in time, the concrete bodies, are finite. They may indeed disperse into the smallest particles; but these particles, the atoms, have their determinate numbers, and the numbers of the configurations which, all of themselves, are formed out of them is also determinate. Now, however long a time may pass, according to the eternal laws governing the combinations of this eternal play of repetition, all configurations which have previously existed on this earth must yet meet, attract, repulse, kiss, and corrupt each other again...[10]

Nietzsche calls the idea "horrifying and paralyzing",[citation needed] and says that its burden is the "heaviest weight" ("das schwerste Gewicht")[11] imaginable. The wish for the eternal return of all events would mark the ultimate affirmation of life:



My formula for human greatness is amor fati: that one wants to have nothing different, not forward, not backward, not in all eternity. Not merely to bear the necessary, still less to conceal it--all idealism is mendaciousness before the necessary--but to love it.


Related to the concept of eternal return is the Poincaré recurrence theorem in mathematics. It states that a system whose dynamics are volume-preserving and which is confined to a finite spatial volume will, after a sufficiently long time, return to an arbitrarily small neighborhood of its initial state. "A sufficiently long time" could be much longer than the predicted lifetime of the universe (see 1 E19 s and more).

[edit] Modern cosmology

Controversial theoretical physicist Peter Lynds suggested a model of eternal recurrence in a 2006 paper.[14] Lynds hypothesizes that if the universe undergoes a big crunch, the arrow of time may reverse. Others have approached the question of eternal recurrence from a physics perspective in different ways, including a hypothesis based on the transactional interpretation of quantum mechanics.[15] Other cosmologists such as Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Max Tegmark consider the possibility that the known universe is just one of many in a multiverse, presenting the argument that existences identical to our own recur infinitely over infinite space.[16] Currently all recurring cosmological models are very controversial within the scientific community, especially due to the fact that there is no evidence to support them. Furthermore, several models proposed in the past have been refuted such as the bouncing model.[17]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Return
I am a humble disciple of chaos. Who wants to join me? A-N-A-R-C-H-Y!

From the Satanic tips of my pen do I write what is on my mind. The internet is my Azazel.

Life is a chess game. Why do I feel like somebody elses pawn?

http://knowthyself.forumotion.net/
User avatar
TheJoker
Antintellectual
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:34 am
Location: Living homeless on the streets of Seattle, WA

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby without-music » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:34 pm

Joker: I think that the Eternal Return, as a cosmological theory, is simply misguided. It cannot possibly provide grounds for an ethic. It also gets relatively complicated and exceedingly mystical rather quickly.

As a thought, however, it does seem quite powerful. However, as a thought, we are inclined to ask what it means, exactly. As goes Nietzsche, this has been the subject of much contention. Deleuze provides a fairly interesting interpretation, an interpretation that, however, rests on some fundamental philosophical commitments. First, one must accept that the world is a monster of innocent becoming. If we probe into the being of such a monster, the "what" as in what does it do , we might say: it recurs -- its being is recurrence. But what is it that recurs? It is becoming, that is: difference. And so we can see that the Eternal Return isn't really the Eternal Return of the same, which changes the thought at its core. The real question is, of course: what does this thought do? What is it good for? I'd like to hear your answer to that question. What is the eternal return to you? Is it an ethical imperative (and if so, how?), or is it a transformative thought?
...how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
User avatar
without-music
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Sauwelios » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:04 pm

TheJoker wrote:Is cyclical time theory or eternal return possible when it concerns the universe? What are other people's opinion on this? I think it is possible if there is no beginning or end of the universe especially if existence itself is infinite.

If the universe is infinite patterns are bound to repeat over and over again.

To the contrary: eternal return only works if the universe is finite. But yes, it's certainly possible. Finitude, i.e., a boundary of "nothingness", is no less conceivable than infinitude: both are completely inconceivable.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Sauwelios » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:13 pm

without-music wrote:But what is it that recurs? It is becoming, that is: difference. And so we can see that the Eternal Return isn't really the Eternal Return of the same, which changes the thought at its core.

It's not a return of the same things inasmuch as there are no such things as "things". There are then no cosmic cycles, just one self-same cosmic circle.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby without-music » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:52 pm

Sauwelios wrote:t's not a return of the same things inasmuch as there are no such things as "things".

I think we're in agreement. It took me a while, though, for Nietzsche speaks specifically of "this same spider", "this same moonlight", etc. eternally recurring. It is no easy thought to grasp, which is why it's so compelling.
...how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
User avatar
without-music
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:41 am

When you die, if you come back, it's only through tricks of language. When you're dead you're dead. Who gives a shit if some part of you, that's not really you comes back? It's not you.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 24708
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby without-music » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:02 pm

Smears wrote:When you die, if you come back, it's only through tricks of language. When you're dead you're dead. Who gives a shit if some part of you, that's not really you comes back? It's not you.

The ER is not concerned (at least not primarily) with the recurrence of a self. If you don't care for what happens after your death, then philosophy must be an overwhelmingly useless way to spend your time.
...how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
User avatar
without-music
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Mr Reasonable » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:52 pm

without-music wrote:
Smears wrote:When you die, if you come back, it's only through tricks of language. When you're dead you're dead. Who gives a shit if some part of you, that's not really you comes back? It's not you.

The ER is not concerned (at least not primarily) with the recurrence of a self. If you don't care for what happens after your death, then philosophy must be an overwhelmingly useless way to spend your time.


Maybe to you. I put those kinds of thoughts in the realm of religion.
You see...a pimp's love is very different from that of a square.
Dating a stripper is like eating a noisy bag of chips in church. Everyone looks at you in disgust, but deep down they want some too.

What exactly is logic? -Magnus Anderson

Support the innocence project on AmazonSmile instead of Turd's African savior biker dude.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
User avatar
Mr Reasonable
resident contrarian
 
Posts: 24708
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:54 am
Location: pimping a hole straight through the stratosphere itself

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby without-music » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:46 pm

Smears: I think you misunderstand. I didn't say "what happens to you after your death", but rather: "what happens [at all] after your death".
...how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
User avatar
without-music
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Amorphos » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:25 pm

If there were only a single particle in the universe and it repeated infinitely X infinity [I.e. inc all +1’s etc] ~ to the aleph omega, there could be nothing else. Why then is there more than that?

Before we make more than a single particle then we should need to put that particle through the process of the ‘eternal return’ [whatever it is].

The only way I can see such an idea occurring ~ and I think the Egyptians saw it much like this [as a boat on the Nile], is if we don’t attempt to stretch the universe into infinity. Such that there is only a ‘fuzzy relativistic now moment’, much like our thoughts work in threes; the current observation/perception along with the ones fading in and out [past and future], time and the universe is like a ship on an infinite ocean [but not part of that infinity].

You have to get rid of all-time for that to be true though. ~ at least as expanded into infinity.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
User avatar
Amorphos
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7048
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby without-music » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:33 pm

quetzalcoatl wrote:If there were only a single particle in the universe and it repeated infinitely X infinity [I.e. inc all +1’s etc] ~ to the aleph omega, there could be nothing else. Why then is there more than that?

Because there is more than just a single particle. And this more perpetually, ceaselessly becomes. And this perpetual, ceaseless becoming recurs. Your question seems only to be a lazy reiteration of the "why something rather than nothing" problematic. I see no place for it here.
...how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
User avatar
without-music
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Amorphos » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:47 pm

You have to arrive at why there is more, and what determines the amount etc, you cant just say ‘because there is more’ ~ what kind of science or philosophy is that? :P You also have to define how the cardinality of the universal set composed of limited things correlates to the infinity which by definition is unlimited.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
User avatar
Amorphos
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7048
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby without-music » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:13 pm

quetzalcoatl wrote:You have to arrive at why there is more, and what determines the amount etc, you cant just say ‘because there is more’ ~ what kind of science or philosophy is that? :P

Actually, I've found "because there is" to be the most acceptable answer to the age-old "why something rather than nothing"? It is the kind of philosophy that wishes to move beyond introductory thinking games and onto productive thought.

quetzalcoatl wrote:You also have to define how the cardinality of the universal set composed of limited things correlates to the infinity which by definition is unlimited.

I've yet to mention infinity, limited, unlimited, universal sets, etc. I'm not sure that my reading necessitates such definitions.
...how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
User avatar
without-music
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Amorphos » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:17 pm

Actually, I've found "because there is" to be the most acceptable answer to the age-old "why something rather than nothing"? It is the kind of philosophy that wishes to move beyond introductory thinking games and onto productive thought.


For some theories you can say; well this is what there ‘is’, but here we are mapping a progression/expansion against and eternal, hence we have to get to what is first.

I've yet to mention infinity, limited, unlimited, universal sets, etc. I'm not sure that my reading necessitates such definitions.


An eternal return necessitates such values, though a continuum does not have to ~ are you seeing cyclicity in this light [as with my position in my first post [or similar]?
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
User avatar
Amorphos
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7048
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby TheJoker » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:13 pm

without-music wrote:Joker: I think that the Eternal Return, as a cosmological theory, is simply misguided. It cannot possibly provide grounds for an ethic. It also gets relatively complicated and exceedingly mystical rather quickly.

As a thought, however, it does seem quite powerful. However, as a thought, we are inclined to ask what it means, exactly. As goes Nietzsche, this has been the subject of much contention. Deleuze provides a fairly interesting interpretation, an interpretation that, however, rests on some fundamental philosophical commitments. First, one must accept that the world is a monster of innocent becoming. If we probe into the being of such a monster, the "what" as in what does it do , we might say: it recurs -- its being is recurrence. But what is it that recurs? It is becoming, that is: difference. And so we can see that the Eternal Return isn't really the Eternal Return of the same, which changes the thought at its core. The real question is, of course: what does this thought do? What is it good for? I'd like to hear your answer to that question. What is the eternal return to you? Is it an ethical imperative (and if so, how?), or is it a transformative thought?


Why do we need a ethic? :lol:

It also gets relatively complicated and exceedingly mystical rather quickly.


There is always enough room for the mystical I think. We can't explain everything.

First, one must accept that the world is a monster of innocent becoming. If we probe into the being of such a monster, the "what" as in what does it do , we might say: it recurs -- its being is recurrence. But what is it that recurs? It is becoming, that is: difference. And so we can see that the Eternal Return isn't really the Eternal Return of the same, which changes the thought at its core. The real question is, of course: what does this thought do? What is it good for? I'd like to hear your answer to that question. What is the eternal return to you? Is it an ethical imperative (and if so, how?), or is it a transformative thought?

Well I see it as the eternal reoccurence of the same so I can't answer your question.

Sauwelios:To the contrary: eternal return only works if the universe is finite. But yes, it's certainly possible. Finitude, i.e., a boundary of "nothingness", is no less conceivable than infinitude: both are completely inconceivable.


It's not a return of the same things inasmuch as there are no such things as "things". There are then no cosmic cycles, just one self-same cosmic circle.


Makes sense to me. I appreciate your intelligent interpretation of this.

Smears: When you die, if you come back, it's only through tricks of language. When you're dead you're dead. Who gives a shit if some part of you, that's not really you comes back? It's not you.


Yes and no, Smears.

If eternal return is true then what happens is you die causing your entire being and form to go into a sort of suspended animation in which once the finite circle comes around again the very individual pattern essence that is you becomes reborn where you are forever cursed to live the same life over and over again filled with the exact replica of all the expiriences having already expirienced prior from cradle to grave.

This is my interpretation of eternal return. Think of it as a exact copy within a repetition of a much greater copy that is the universe.

It's like the sequence or events of earthly history eternally repeating in the same exact manner over and over again unchanging.

In the end we really do live forever as eternal echoes of cyclical time in the fabric that is the universe only in this dimension there is no heaven but only earthly pleasures and sufferings.

Who knows how many countless billions of times we have lived this same exact weary life? How many births and deaths we have already expirienced?

It sounds supernatural but it's not. There is no "God" involved in this. There is only the cyclical nature of the universe in eternal repeating patterns.

If there were only a single particle in the universe and it repeated infinitely X infinity [I.e. inc all +1’s etc] ~ to the aleph omega, there could be nothing else. Why then is there more than that?

Before we make more than a single particle then we should need to put that particle through the process of the ‘eternal return’ [whatever it is].


The only way I can see such an idea occurring ~ and I think the Egyptians saw it much like this [as a boat on the Nile], is if we don’t attempt to stretch the universe into infinity. Such that there is only a ‘fuzzy relativistic now moment’, much like our thoughts work in threes; the current observation/perception along with the ones fading in and out [past and future], time and the universe is like a ship on an infinite ocean [but not part of that infinity].

You have to get rid of all-time for that to be true though. ~ at least as expanded into infinity.


If existence is a single eternal stream with time being the same that has no beginning or end then the chances of the same exact patterns reoccuring are increased infinitely.

The universe for sure eventually dies like everything else but in it's death comes the creation of a multitude of infinite other universes. This is the eternal creation, destruction, and death that repeats itself. In death there is never static but only the transformation into somthing else.
I am a humble disciple of chaos. Who wants to join me? A-N-A-R-C-H-Y!

From the Satanic tips of my pen do I write what is on my mind. The internet is my Azazel.

Life is a chess game. Why do I feel like somebody elses pawn?

http://knowthyself.forumotion.net/
User avatar
TheJoker
Antintellectual
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:34 am
Location: Living homeless on the streets of Seattle, WA

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Fixed Cross » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:36 am

What is the merit of this idea?
I am asking because, with science, the merit is always clear, it's power.

But what has changed for us if we decide that all things return?
Nothing is affected. Only our valuation of our actions, since they are multiplied into infinity.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

Image

Thunderbolt steers all things.
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 6985
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: Thrudheim

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby without-music » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:52 am

Fixed Cross wrote:But what has changed for us if we decide that all things return?

The literature is quite dense on this point. Laurence Lampert, as Sauwelios will never tire of recommending, does quite well in answering this question in his Nietzsche's Teaching.

Fixed Cross wrote:I am asking because, with science, the merit is always clear, it's power.

Indeed. And the short answer is: the overman.

Fixed Cross wrote:But what has changed for us if we decide that all things return?
Nothing is affected. Only our valuation of our actions, since they are multiplied into infinity.

On the contrary! Insofar as we now have an over-reaching interpretation of things, everything will be affected.
...how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature.
User avatar
without-music
 
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 3:11 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Amorphos » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:05 pm

Nothing is affected. Only our valuation of our actions, since they are multiplied into infinity.


Strange I thought an infinite universe makes us even smaller comparatively nothing. Besides ^^ this would run into my earlier problem, an event/action reaching the aleph omega would deny all others.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
User avatar
Amorphos
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7048
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby TheJoker » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:04 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:What is the merit of this idea?
I am asking because, with science, the merit is always clear, it's power.

But what has changed for us if we decide that all things return?
Nothing is affected. Only our valuation of our actions, since they are multiplied into infinity.


If everything eternally repeats themselves truely then nothing and everything doesn't matter. :lol:

Strange I thought an infinite universe makes us even smaller comparatively nothing. Besides ^^ this would run into my earlier problem, an event/action reaching the aleph omega would deny all others.


I think the universe is infinite not definite.

If the universe was definite I don't see how the cyclical outline would exist or operate but if it's infinite then it would make all the more sense.

Still even the infinite must be enslaved to entropy which in some sense might make it limitedly definite. Kinda confusing.
I am a humble disciple of chaos. Who wants to join me? A-N-A-R-C-H-Y!

From the Satanic tips of my pen do I write what is on my mind. The internet is my Azazel.

Life is a chess game. Why do I feel like somebody elses pawn?

http://knowthyself.forumotion.net/
User avatar
TheJoker
Antintellectual
 
Posts: 751
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:34 am
Location: Living homeless on the streets of Seattle, WA

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Amorphos » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:32 pm

I think the universe is infinite not definite.
If the universe was definite I don't see how the cyclical outline would exist or operate but if it's infinite then it would make all the more sense.


If it were infinite there’d be no limitedness/universe/things in.

Still even the infinite must be enslaved to entropy which in some sense might make it limitedly definite. Kinda confusing.


Why would there be entropy in an *infinite universe [assuming there was one*]? How can it degrade? …be less than entire.

isn’t infinity simply a dimension in which the universe is expanding, hence it’s a bit like saying the universe is in the vertical of the three spatial dimensions.

.
The truth is naked,
Once it is written it is lost.
Genius is the result of the entire product of man.
The cosmic insignificance of humanity, shows the cosmic insignificance of a universe without humanity.
the fully painted picture, reveals an empty canvas
User avatar
Amorphos
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 7048
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:49 pm
Location: infinity

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:47 pm

without-music wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:But what has changed for us if we decide that all things return?

The literature is quite dense on this point. Laurence Lampert, as Sauwelios will never tire of recommending, does quite well in answering this question in his Nietzsche's Teaching.

Perhaps I will look into that.

Fixed Cross wrote:I am asking because, with science, the merit is always clear, it's power.

Indeed. And the short answer is: the overman.

I see. Has Nietzsche made this connection explicitly, or only implied it?
In the first case I would like to read the relevant passages. If you have sources that would help greatly.

Fixed Cross wrote:But what has changed for us if we decide that all things return?
Nothing is affected. Only our valuation of our actions, since they are multiplied into infinity.

On the contrary! Insofar as we now have an over-reaching interpretation of things, everything will be affected.

You are right, of course. Multiplication by infinity is hardly nothing!
Last edited by Fixed Cross on Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

Image

Thunderbolt steers all things.
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 6985
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: Thrudheim

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:02 pm

quetzalcoatl wrote:
Nothing is affected. Only our valuation of our actions, since they are multiplied into infinity.


Strange I thought an infinite universe makes us even smaller comparatively nothing. Besides ^^ this would run into my earlier problem, an event/action reaching the aleph omega would deny all others.

I have to ask, comparatively to what? I think I understand what you mean, but I do not believe that the totality of the universe exists. The universe exists only in our mind as a unity, as a thing. The idea "Totality of Mass" is a construct, it requires a human mind. Any supposed totality is a product of our will to understand, which one could interpret as our will to power. So the larger the totality that rolls out of our computers, the more reason we have to pat each other on the back and exchange compliments for our creative efforts.

Outside of our efforts to understand in this way, who knows if such a thing as te universe even exists at all? If it does, it certainly would exist in a as vastly different shape, or number of shapes than what we are able to imagine. Have we evolved to comprehend the whole we are part of? That would be a very fortunate circumstance, and very strange. But it's possible. Still, such a whole would only be what we can conceive of. I see no possibility for any of our notions of totality to pertain to an objectively existing limit.

In terms of objective relation (size, quantity), it may be exiting to see the numbers we can come up with. But we cannot possibly so more than interpret limits into what our senses equip us to interpret. Since it is a matter of interpretation and nothing besides, the only way in which these notions we come up with are relevant to us, is in how they affect us.

That is why I've aways admire the space-program, and why I hope that man will attempt to set foot on Mars, and on the moons of the gas-giants beyond. It is such an inspired activity. Useless perhaps (although some interesting resources have been located on Mars) but only the miser cares first about utility.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

Image

Thunderbolt steers all things.
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 6985
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: Thrudheim

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Fixed Cross » Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:15 pm

TheJoker wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:What is the merit of this idea?
I am asking because, with science, the merit is always clear, it's power.

But what has changed for us if we decide that all things return?
Nothing is affected. Only our valuation of our actions, since they are multiplied into infinity.


If everything eternally repeats themselves truely then nothing and everything doesn't matter. :lol:

Please allow me to translate your statement to logic: "Given that nothing matters to me, and everything including me repeats itself eternally, then still nothing will ever matter to me." Is this not what you mean? I cannot disagree with that.

It is of course nonsense to impose a value (in your case, zero) on the world as if this value would then be anything besides a personal interpretation. I may express my idea that the world is of enormous value, but this idea only rises from my experience, and has no meaning to another when it comes in the form of an objective statement.

Still even the infinite must be enslaved to entropy
which in some sense might make it limitedly definite. Kinda confusing.

Perhaps this is confusing because in order for there to be entropy there must be structure, and wherever we interpret structure, it is not possible to speak of infinity. Only in some cases our logic permits us to project an unlimited progression in time of a particular form of change.
The strong do what they can, the weak accept what they must.
- Thucydides

Image

Thunderbolt steers all things.
User avatar
Fixed Cross
Doric Usurper
 
Posts: 6985
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:53 am
Location: Thrudheim

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Sauwelios » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:08 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:I am asking because, with science, the merit is always clear, it's power.

Indeed. And the short answer is: the overman.

I see. Has Nietzsche made this connection explicitly, or only implied it?
In the first case I would like to read the relevant passages. If you have sources that would help greatly.

If you agree that the overman is or would be "[t]he most high-spirited, most alive, and most world-affirming man", then BGE 56 (and cf. WP 1041). And that the overman is or would be a man (Mensch, "human being") is quite explicit from EH "Destiny" 5 (and cf. AC 3-4).
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Eternal Return. Cyclical Time Theory.

Postby Sauwelios » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:58 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Indeed. And the short answer is: the overman.

I see. Has Nietzsche made this connection explicitly, or only implied it?
In the first case I would like to read the relevant passages. If you have sources that would help greatly.

If you agree that the overman is or would be "[t]he most high-spirited, most alive, and most world-affirming man", then BGE 56 (and cf. WP 1041). And that the overman is or would be a man (Mensch, "human being") is quite explicit from EH "Destiny" 5 (and cf. AC 3-4).

Hm, no reply? I had hoped that someone would point out that though this establishes a connection from the overman to the eternal recurrence, it was the converse that without-music was talking about.

If the overman is the man who affirms the eternal recurrence, we can see how the eternal recurrence, in turn, leads to the overman. Thus in WP 1059 and 1060, Nietzsche basically says that the idea of the eternal recurrence forces men to either perish or adopt revalued values. This is the first selection. Only those who accept the revaluation of all values will endure the idea. But the overman is not the man who merely endures the idea, but who affirms it. Thus Nietzsche ends section 1060 by foretelling the "[g]reatest elevation of the consciousness of strength in man, as he creates the overman." This is the second selection. These two selections are basically the following (I will underline the first and make the second bold):

"Ye lonesome ones of today, ye seceding ones, ye shall one day be a people: out of you who have chosen yourselves, shall a chosen people arise:---and out of it the Superman."
(TSZ, "Bestowing Virtue", 2, trans. Common.)

Compare also WP 55 to 1059: in 1059, the revaluation of all values is associated with the will to power; and in 55, a crisis in the ancient Greek sense of the word, a sifting, is described in which those who cannot endure the idea of the eternal recurrence, i.e., those who cannot affirm the will to power, are driven to self-destruction. I contend that the revaluation of all values is essentially the revaluation of the will to power. Thus the overman, the eternal recurrence, the revaluation of all values, and the will to power are inextricably connected:

1) the overman is the man who affirms the eternal recurrence;
2) the eternal recurrence enforces the revaluation of all values;
3) the revaluation of all values is the revaluation of the will to power;
4) the supreme affirmation of the will to power is the affirmation of the eternal recurrence.
"Someone may object that the successful revolt against the universal and homogeneous state could have no other effect than that the identical historical process which has led from the primitive horde to the final state will be repeated. But would such a repetition of the process--a new lease of life for man's humanity--not be preferable to the indefinite continuation of the inhuman end? Do we not enjoy every spring although we know the cycle of the seasons, although we know that winter will come again?" (Leo Strauss, "Restatement on Xenophon's Hiero".)
User avatar
Sauwelios
Philosophical Supremacist
 
Posts: 7182
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:07 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Next

Return to Science, Technology, and Math



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users