Universe and Time

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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 26, 2014 12:15 am

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:What "structure" did you want it to have that wasn't there?

I did not want a syntactical structure because a syntactical structure is given anyway, unless it is invalid, false.

Please tell me what the exact definitions of "harmony" and "anentropy" are according to RM:AO.

Harmony == motion with a limitation on the degree of disruptive conflict.
Anentropy == the balance between entropy and anti-entropy, zero (or near zero) disruptive conflict.

Anentropy does not require internal harmony. But eternal internal harmony requires anentropy.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Wil777 » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:03 pm

Don't you think that if to consider Universe space not 3D but 4D this paradox could be understood?
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:28 pm

Do you completely agree with the mainstraem-physicist when it comes to interpret the "entropy"?
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:47 pm

Arminius wrote:Do you completely agree with the mainstream-physicist when it comes to interpret the "entropy"?

"Entropy" has multiple meanings. More technically, it refers to;
In thermodynamics, entropy (usual symbol S) is a measure of the number of specific ways in which a thermodynamic system may be arranged, commonly understood as a measure of disorder. According to the second law of thermodynamics the entropy of an isolated system never decreases; such systems spontaneously evolve towards thermodynamic equilibrium, the configuration with maximum entropy.

It's an issue of further interpretation of the other words; "evolve", "disorder", "isolated", "never", "state".

Another common use of the word "entropy" is "the forces that bring disorder". Many "isolated" systems can decrease their entropy to a stable state, so the second law depends upon at what point one begins the measure. And then "state" of which parts or elements? Although a particle is a stable entity, it is never "isolated". There are just too many vague concerns involved to commit to a "complete agreement".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:38 pm

If a particle is not isolated (closed), although it is a stable entity, then tell me what "isolated" means according to RM:AO. Is there anything at all that can be isolated according to RM:AO?
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:06 pm

Arminius wrote:If a particle is not isolated (closed), although it is a stable entity, then tell me what "isolated" means according to RM:AO. Is there anything at all that can be isolated according to RM:AO?

At the time they came up with the laws of thermodynamics, they had no idea that space itself is filled with energy, actually made of energy. They didn't know that atoms and particles were made of turbulent energy being exchanged with that space. They had no way to know that it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange. But now in physics, even common physics, they are aware that there is nothing that anyone could do to truly isolate a molecular system from energy exchanges. RM:AO explains exactly why that is so.

I think that I had mentioned that back in 1972, I designed a molecular level device with no mechanical parts that directly broke the second law of thermodynamics by perpetually converting the chaos of heat energy in a molecularity closed system into more orderly gas flow that could be used to create mechanical motion or electric current flow. Other than the converted output, the entire system was a "thermodynamic system" that allowed its internal gases to both increase and decrease their level of entropy. The system could provide either an eternal constant flow of gas from a prior stagnate gas chamber or a regular pressure buildup and release.

The energy that drove the system was simply being absorbed from the ambient environment and sent back out into it. Other than by totally freezing the gas, that system could not be isolated. But even a single atom represents a "system" of perpetual motion and that can never be isolated from the energy of its environment, no matter how "cold" is gets. Isolation from energy flow is impossible.

So something can be isolated from mechanical or molecular interference, but never from energy exchange. No nation actually needs to purchase energy from any other except in the form they want it to be stored in. And with today's technology, they can change any form into any other on their own.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:54 pm

The following is a small crude anime to display "empty space", from which nothing can be isolated.

Image

The program generating that wasn't nearly complete so it is crude and you have to forgive the extra accumulation around the borders. There was a mysterious programming glitch causing that effect, having nothing to do with the emulation of portions of EMR, "Afflates" = ultra-small "charged, virtual-photons": blue = relative positive, yellow = relative negative, both relative to the total average (coincidentally showing as green).

That is a pic of an area of space perhaps 1000 times small than a single proton presuming that one could actually see EMR in color and at the level. It uses 8000 small afflates, which isn't anywhere near enough for a good approximation. Anything less than 50,000 at that level isn't very accurate even when the programming is complete. The pic is merely to relay the general idea of the random affectance in even the smallest bits of space.

And although it might look like the afflates are swirling about, they are actually traveling linearly through a 3D cube of more of themselves, "space". And I placed a large "stationary positive afflate" in the center just for future reference.

And a "mass particle" forms automatically when that field of afflates gets too dense. The afflates aggregate into a "charged particle" that is constantly exchanging its afflates with the surrounding region yet remaining a stable aggregation, "clump"/"cluster"/"traffic jam".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:40 am

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:If a particle is not isolated (closed), although it is a stable entity, then tell me what "isolated" means according to RM:AO. Is there anything at all that can be isolated according to RM:AO?

At the time they came up with the laws of thermodynamics, they had no idea that space itself is filled with energy, actually made of energy. They didn't know that atoms and particles were made of turbulent energy being exchanged with that space. They had no way to know that it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange. But now in physics, even common physics, they are aware that there is nothing that anyone could do to truly isolate a molecular system from energy exchanges. RM:AO explains exactly why that is so.

1.) Why should it not be possible that energy and matter are isolated from each other? I know that according to RM:AO it is impossible because "existence is that which has affect".

2.) If it is right that "it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange", is it then also not possible to Isolate anything at all according to RM:AO? Are you isolated from me?

James S Saint wrote:I think that I had mentioned that back in 1972, I designed a molecular level device with no mechanical parts that directly broke the second law of thermodynamics by perpetually converting the chaos of heat energy in a molecularity closed system into more orderly gas flow that could be used to create mechanical motion or electric current flow. Other than the converted output, the entire system was a "thermodynamic system" that allowed its internal gases to both increase and decrease their level of entropy. The system could provide either an eternal constant flow of gas from a prior stagnate gas chamber or a regular pressure buildup and release.

Are you sure that that really was a "closed system"?

James S Saint wrote:The energy that drove the system was simply being absorbed from the ambient environment and sent back out into it. Other than by totally freezing the gas, that system could not be isolated. But even a single atom represents a "system" of perpetual motion and that can never be isolated from the energy of its environment, no matter how "cold" is gets. Isolation from energy flow is impossible.

Yes, but again: If it is right that "it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange", then there is only one system possible (which is either an open or a closed one), thus an isolated closed system (isolated from that only one system) is not possible.

James S Saint wrote:So something can be isolated from mechanical or molecular interference, but never from energy exchange. No nation actually needs to purchase energy from any other except in the form they want it to be stored in. And with today's technology, they can change any form into any other on their own.

But "mechanical or molecular interference" is also energy.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:55 am

James S Saint wrote:The following is a small crude anime to display "empty space", from which nothing can be isolated.

Image

The program generating that wasn't nearly complete so it is crude and you have to forgive the extra accumulation around the borders. There was a mysterious programming glitch causing that effect, having nothing to do with the emulation of portions of EMR, "Afflates" = ultra-small "charged, virtual-photons": blue = relative positive, yellow = relative negative, both relative to the total average (coincidentally showing as green).

That is a pic of an area of space perhaps 1000 times small than a single proton presuming that one could actually see EMR in color and at the level. It uses 8000 small afflates, which isn't anywhere near enough for a good approximation. Anything less than 50,000 at that level isn't very accurate even when the programming is complete. The pic is merely to relay the general idea of the random affectance in even the smallest bits of space.

And although it might look like the afflates are swirling about, they are actually traveling linearly through a 3D cube of more of themselves, "space". And I placed a large "stationary positive afflate" in the center just for future reference.

And a "mass particle" forms automatically when that field of afflates gets too dense. The afflates aggregate into a "charged particle" that is constantly exchanging its afflates with the surrounding region yet remaining a stable aggregation, "clump"/"cluster"/"traffic jam".

Is that to see in the picture?
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:32 am

Arminius wrote:Is that to see in the picture?

Is what "to see"? The mass particle? No.
That is just a crude example display of "empty space".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:04 am

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:Is that to see in the picture?

Is what "to see"? The mass particle? No.
That is just a crude example display of "empty space".

But the space is not empty!
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:10 am

Arminius wrote:1.) Why should it not be possible that energy and matter are isolated from each other? I know that according to RM:AO it is impossible because "existence is that which has affect".

That is why.
Both energy and mass are affects. They are merely different degrees of the same thing. Although even in physics, there is "potential energy" and also "actualized energy" (kinetic, radiant). In RM:AO those are PtA and Affectance ("actualized energy"). What they call "mass" is merely a cluster of radiant energy giving the appearance of not radiating because the cluster as a whole is not radiating, although it might be moving (forming "momentum") - "energy in a clump".

Arminius wrote:2.) If it is right that "it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange", is it then also not possible to Isolate anything at all according to RM:AO? Are you isolated from me?

Physical things are only isolated through time and any dispersal that might take place as they propagate to each other. If we do not move from where we are, the constant stream of energy leaving from each of us, in some minuscule way reaches each other. All physical things have less than absolute zero affect upon all other physical things, but only through time.

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:I think that I had mentioned that back in 1972, I designed a molecular level device with no mechanical parts that directly broke the second law of thermodynamics by perpetually converting the chaos of heat energy in a molecularity closed system into more orderly gas flow that could be used to create mechanical motion or electric current flow. Other than the converted output, the entire system was a "thermodynamic system" that allowed its internal gases to both increase and decrease their level of entropy. The system could provide either an eternal constant flow of gas from a prior stagnate gas chamber or a regular pressure buildup and release.

Are you sure that that really was a "closed system"?

It is "closed" in the way that they meant it. My point was that radiant heat energy, especially on an ultra small sub-particle scale, cannot be blocked. They weren't looking any further down than molecular vibrations, which can be isolated merely by a vacuum of particles. Later they realized that radiant heat energy had to be blocked too, through reflection or absorption. But me, looking on an even much smaller scale than that, I know that there is nothing at all that can block "sub-particle radiation" or "afflates". It doesn't really reflect (reflecting "surfaces" could not be made on that scale. Surfaces don't exist on that scale) and any absorption is temporary. It is the lowest, smallest form of energy and occupies all space regardless of what is in that space. Everything is made of it, so there is no escape from it. And it doesn't stick around, but propagates always, merely getting delayed more or less which is what gives form to particles and objects.

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The energy that drove the system was simply being absorbed from the ambient environment and sent back out into it. Other than by totally freezing the gas, that system could not be isolated. But even a single atom represents a "system" of perpetual motion and that can never be isolated from the energy of its environment, no matter how "cold" is gets. Isolation from energy flow is impossible.

Yes, but again: If it is right that "it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange", then there is only one system possible (which is either an open or a closed one), thus an isolated closed system (isolated from that only one system) is not possible.

And again, it was only "closed" in the way that they meant when they said "closed". In reality, there is no such thing as "absolutely closed".

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:So something can be isolated from mechanical or molecular interference, but never from energy exchange. No nation actually needs to purchase energy from any other except in the form they want it to be stored in. And with today's technology, they can change any form into any other on their own.

But "mechanical or molecular interference" is also energy.

It is a particular type/form of energy that can be prevented from moving too close. One can stop a baseball from getting to ones head, but one cannot stop affectance radiation from getting anywhere it happens to want to go.

Arminius wrote:But the space is not empty!

I'm still not understanding what you are asking. There is no such thing as actual "empty space". What we call "empty space" isn't empty at all. That is what the anime was showing, "space" is a very busy place.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 27, 2014 2:31 am

James S Saint wrote:
Arminius wrote:1.) Why should it not be possible that energy and matter are isolated from each other? I know that according to RM:AO it is impossible because "existence is that which has affect".

That is why.
Both energy and mass are affects. They are merely different degrees of the same thing. Although even in physics, there is "potential energy" and also "actualized energy" (kinetic, radiant). In RM:AO those are PtA and Affectance ("actualized energy"). What they call "mass" is merely a cluster of radiant energy giving the appearance of not radiating because the cluster as a whole is not radiating, although it might be moving (forming "momentum") - "energy in a clump".

Arminius wrote:2.) If it is right that "it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange", is it then also not possible to Isolate anything at all according to RM:AO? Are you isolated from me?

Physical things are only isolated through time and any dispersal that might take place as they propagate to each other. If we do not move from where we are, the constant stream of energy leaving from each of us, in some minuscule way reaches each other. All physical things have less than absolute zero affect upon all other physical things, but only through time.

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:I think that I had mentioned that back in 1972, I designed a molecular level device with no mechanical parts that directly broke the second law of thermodynamics by perpetually converting the chaos of heat energy in a molecularity closed system into more orderly gas flow that could be used to create mechanical motion or electric current flow. Other than the converted output, the entire system was a "thermodynamic system" that allowed its internal gases to both increase and decrease their level of entropy. The system could provide either an eternal constant flow of gas from a prior stagnate gas chamber or a regular pressure buildup and release.

Are you sure that that really was a "closed system"?

It is "closed" in the way that they meant it. My point was that radiant heat energy, especially on an ultra small sub-particle scale, cannot be blocked. They weren't looking any further down than molecular vibrations, which can be isolated merely by a vacuum of particles. Later they realized that radiant heat energy had to be blocked too, through reflection or absorption. But me, looking on an even much smaller scale than that, I know that there is nothing at all that can block "sub-particle radiation" or "afflates". It doesn't really reflect (reflecting "surfaces" could not be made on that scale. Surfaces don't exist on that scale) and any absorption is temporary. It is the lowest, smallest form of energy and occupies all space regardless of what is in that space. Everything is made of it, so there is no escape from it. And it doesn't stick around, but propagates always, merely getting delayed more or less which is what gives form to particles and objects.

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:The energy that drove the system was simply being absorbed from the ambient environment and sent back out into it. Other than by totally freezing the gas, that system could not be isolated. But even a single atom represents a "system" of perpetual motion and that can never be isolated from the energy of its environment, no matter how "cold" is gets. Isolation from energy flow is impossible.

Yes, but again: If it is right that "it is a physical impossibility to truly isolate an atom from the energy all around it (other than thinking more than they did), and thus neither could any object be isolated from such energy exchange", then there is only one system possible (which is either an open or a closed one), thus an isolated closed system (isolated from that only one system) is not possible.

And again, it was only "closed" in the way that they meant when they said "closed". In reality, there is no such thing as "absolutely closed".

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:So something can be isolated from mechanical or molecular interference, but never from energy exchange. No nation actually needs to purchase energy from any other except in the form they want it to be stored in. And with today's technology, they can change any form into any other on their own.

But "mechanical or molecular interference" is also energy.

It is a particular type/form of energy that can be prevented from moving too close. One can stop a baseball from getting to ones head, but one cannot stop affectance radiation from getting anywhere it happens to want to go.

Arminius wrote:But the space is not empty!

I'm still not understanding what you are asking.

No wonder because I was asking nothing! :)

James S Saint wrote:There is no such thing as actual "empty space". What we call "empty space" isn't empty at all. That is what the anime was showing, "space" is a very busy place.

How "busy" is the space? :)
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:53 am

Arminius wrote:How "busy" is the space? :)

Well that anime shows how busy it is when there is "no-thing" in the space and near a large mass such as Earth.

But if there is a particle in that space ("some-thing") and falling toward a black-hole, the following would represent how much of that same "noise/busy-ness" would be in that space:
Image

But in that graph, the particle never reaches the black-hole. The "Ambient Density" is a rough measure of how close to the black-hole it is.

The simplicity of RM:AO is that EVERYTHING is simply different concentrations of Affectance and situated such that potentials for altering the amounts and locations of the concentrations arise.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:51 am

You are saying that „physical reality has no such thing as a force“. What do you think about Newton's "laws"?

1) First law: When viewed in an inertial reference frame, an object either remains at rest or continues to move at a constant velocity, unless acted upon by an external force. The first law states that if the net force (the vector sum of all forces acting on an object) is zero, then the velocity of the object is constant. Velocity is a vector quantity which expresses both the object's speed and the direction of its motion; therefore, the statement that the object's velocity is constant is a statement that both its speed and the direction of its motion are constant. The first law can be stated mathematically as:
Image

2) Second law: F = ma. The vector sum of the forces F on an object is equal to the mass m of that object multiplied by the acceleration vector a of the object. The second law states that the net force on an object is equal to the rate of change (that is, the derivative) of its linear momentum p in an inertial reference frame:

Image

The second law can also be stated in terms of an object's acceleration. Since Newton's second law is only valid for constant-mass systems,[16][17][18] mass can be taken outside the differentiation operator by the constant factor rule in differentiation. Thus,

Image

where F is the net force applied, m is the mass of the body, and a is the body's acceleration. Thus, the net force applied to a body produces a proportional acceleration. In other words, if a body is accelerating, then there is a force on it.

3) Third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body. The third law states that all forces exist in pairs: if one object A exerts a force FA on a second object B, then B simultaneously exerts a force FB on A, and the two forces are equal and opposite: FA = −FB.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:30 pm

Arminius wrote:You are saying that „physical reality has no such thing as a force“. What do you think about Newton's "laws"?

Well, this is where you need to understand what an ontology is. Every understanding of existence is an ontology. There is either the reality itself, or an ontological understanding of reality. That is all there is. Reality itself has no words or concepts to it. It is simply what it is, no actual forms or properties. An ontology categorizes issues of concern into abstract concepts. The concepts don't actually exist in physical reality, but in order to communicate and think, the mind chooses such categories, else it could never keep track of anything nor communicate anything.

One common issue of concern can be the concept of pushing or pulling, "force". In normal life, a person sees himself pushing on something in order to make it change relative location. He "applies force".

In Newtonian physics, that concept of applying force is given a means of measurement. That was a very useful thing to do (and the only reason you even know his name). But let's say a different guy, "Jacob", thought in different terms. Jacob considered such actions, not as "forcing", but "inspiring movement". In both cases the person is causing a change. But the concepts are a little different. Newton pushes things to move them. Jacob inspires things to move. Newton implies that Newton is doing all of the action and the object is just receiving his effect. Jacob implies that Jacob merely initiates an action that is carried out by the object. The end result and by all superficial appearances, the two are the same.

So the difference between Newton and Jacob is merely one of the ontology they are using in order to describe the same reality. So in reality, was the object pushed or was it inspired to move?

Newton formed a standard for measuring push. But Jacob didn't establish a standard for measuring inspiration. Thus common physics used Newtons pushing concept, "force" rather than Jacob's inspiration concept. But which one is "REAL"?

In a sense they are both real, but you won't find any physicist talking about objects inspiring other objects to move, but rather forcing them to move. It is just an issue of language and inferred connotations.

In RM:AO, I get into the extremely ultra minuscule happenings even below the level of sub-atomic particles. In such an environment, there are no "things" to be pushing anything or to be pushed by anything. There simply is no pushing or pulling to be found. The concept doesn't apply. In order for the concept to apply, "things" have to form and then acquire a means to push other things. At that point, I could then talk about "force" as the average end effect of the infinite number of smaller occurrences that brought about that end effect. So "force" is a concept that can apply on a macroscopic scale, but not on a pico-scopic scale.

So in order to stay consistent, because a force makes no sense on the smaller scale, I (like most people) just say that "the larger concept thing doesn't "really exist". It just appears that way."

Science does that same thing on many issues. Science says that "spirits don't exist". The reality is that it is just a matter of ontological construct. A "spirit" is merely the interaction of a group of things or the behavior of the group as a whole. When Science says that "spirits don't exist", it is saying that there is no interaction within a body. But what do you have if you take out the interactive processes within a body? You have a dead body, exactly what the spiritualist was telling you, the spirit is no longer in the body" = "the interaction processes are no longer in the body".

So do spirits REALLY exist? It is just a matter of ontological language. In the language of Science, no they don't. But Science will agree that behaviors exist. You just have to use the right word for the same concept.

Atheists love to proclaim the non-existence of many things so as to promote Secularism when in fact, they are just using a different language and declaring that the other language is fantasy, even though they are actually speaking of the same things.

In the case of forces, something is implied that truly has no place on the ultra low scale of reality. Everything that is attributed to forces is understood without any lower level of force existing. Thus when I say that "forces don't exist", I am not merely changing language. I am stating that when you get down to the very bottom of reality and what makes things work, there is nothing that you could rightly call a "force". And when you raise the level up to the point where you could speak of forces and make a little more sense, nothing new has come into the ontology, no new element to be called "force", but rather merely a combination of a great many smaller non-force actions, "inspired migrations".

So in RM:AO ontological understanding language, Jacob was right and Newton was wrong (sort of). Things are "inspired to move", not really forced. They move because of changes within them, not because of pressures on their "surface". On the lowest level of reality, there are no "surfaces" either. And that is why nothing can actually be completely isolated from anything else - except through time.

Of course keep in mind, that reality itself doesn't care what anyone is calling anything. We choose our language for our own subjective issues. Our concepts never "actually exist". The mind can never grasp actual existence, only a map of categories of affects in the terrain, a terrain that the mind will never actually know, only estimate.

To think about reality one MUST choose an ontology and stick with it. Conflating ontologies creates confusions, conflicts, deceptions and fantasies = "the LACK of understanding reality". It is the same as trying to speak two languages at the same time. It doesn't work to communicate. And mixing ontologies doesn't work to form understanding.

So in RM:AO, forces don't exist. But that doesn't mean that in common physics they don't. And it doesn't necessarily mean that either is wrong (but it just so happens that forces cannot exist, even in common physics, on the ultra low level of existence).

Newton's laws were macroscopic principles, not principles of universal physicality. RM:AO is truly universal.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:24 pm

The main problem is a linguistical one, thus a problem of words. But what do you think about the mathematical equations? Are Newton's equations according to RM:AO as problematic as Einstein's equations which are perhaps false?

And one more question:

What do you think about the four-dimensional space, also known as Riemann's continuum (cp. Bernhard Riemann), and about Minkowski's or Einstein's world (cp. Hermann Minkowski and Albert Einstein), thus Einstein's theory of relativity; especially the famous E = mc²?
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:42 pm

Arminius wrote:The main problem is a linguistical one, thus a problem of words. But what do you think about the mathematical equations? Are Newton's equations according to RM:AO as problematic as Einstein's equations which are perhaps false?

And one more question:

What do you think about the four-dimensional space, also known as Riemann's continuum (cp. Bernhard Riemann), and about Minkowski's or Einstein's world (cp. Hermann Minkowski and Albert Einstein), thus Einstein's theory of relativity; especially the famous E = mc²?

This is all much like asking what I think of middle eastern politics. Newton was the Moses of science spawning the "empirical law giver age" of science. But then reality stepped up to the plate when they ran into the speed of light problem. The law givers got demoted to dubious prophets, "theorists", during the Einstein era. And of course, as with any questionable theory based mindset, there is always a devil, the Quantum Magi introducing the magic and mentality of numerology into the picture, "pure mathematics = the only reality".

The new religion of science has taken the same course as all of those prior; law giving certainty, dubious prophets, masters of mysticism, and of course eventually, condemnation for unbelief. And asking my opinion of them is about like me asking you for your opinion of Isaiah, Melchizedek, the four corners of the Earth ontology, and numerology (R. Riemann was a modern era numerologist, "strict mathematician", and seriously good at it. "Four dimensional space" is merely a pure mathematics ontology).

As you said, the Newtonian laws are largely an issue of chosen language and thus definitions of concepts. They presumed a Cartesian universe, solidity of objects, and forces causing motion and then defined their concepts based upon that. That worked fine until the speed of light problem. A coherent truth became harder to define.

Einstein had apparently been introduced to the problem in school under Minkowski and saw that if what he is being told was true, then one should be able to use these relativity equations in order to make truth coherent again. He was almost right. But even early in the game, Minkowski had already proven that those strong relativity thoughts could be entirely right. Minkowski had already worked out that if extrapolated, those equations demand holes in reality itself, "regions of incoherence". That alone was enough to say "no" to the certain truth of relativity. But the god of empiricism stepped in with his usual "I don't give a damn what is true. I just care about what I can use." And the relativity equations were demonstrably useful.

The entire confusion in science has been the conflation of the map with the terrain. People like Riemann, Lorentz, and Maxwell were hard hitters and far more admirable philosophers than Einstein. Einstein took on the challenge of trying to form a perfect ontology based on subjectivity, but in the long run couldn't get it to work. He was propped up as the greatest genius, and I don't dislike the guy, but there were many far more genius thinkers than Einstein who had to help him and still couldn't get Relativity to be a completely coherent ontology.

RM:AO is a truly coherent ontology from top to bottom. There are no "holes in reality", no "independence from physicality", nor inexplicable "axioms of magic". But I am not much of a mathematician. I am far more a logician and ontologist (one who understands what "truth" means and the necessary distinction between truth and reality, the map and the terrain).

All of the famous people in the "enlightenment era" were at least partially right or "true" within their own ontological realm. But I can say the same thing about the prophets, priests, and monks concerning the Roman gods and the Hebrew spirits. Within their own ontology, they were very largely right, some very impressively so.

But none of their ontologies matched RM:AO for total coherency to literally an infinite degree and beyond. 8)

If you were to just erase everything you had ever been taught and start over with a clean mental slate, RM:AO would be simple and obvious. And as you got into the more complex arrangements and concerns, many of the prior philosophers and prophets would emerge as useful pointers toward understanding complex situations. But unlike any ontology before it, at no point would RM:AO have to be rebooted with a different foundation. There can be no coherent mathematics, philosopher, or prophet to prove it untruthful. The reverse is more likely.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:21 pm

You spoke of the Einstein era as if it had ended.

When will the "new religion" be complete? First of all they had to create a "new theology" because they had to create some gods, divinities, godhoods. But after that they had to create that "new religion", and that has more practical aspects that we have been noticing for so long. Spirit is a taboo, although science is not possible at all without spirit. They are forcing more and more in their religious system. But obviously it is inevitable. The "new religion" is not finished yet. There is going to come something more to us.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:22 pm

Arminius wrote:You spoke of the Einstein era as if it had ended.

Well, I am a bit of what they call "a time traveler", being one who projects into the future, sees what is there, and then talks about his "experiences". In my case, in order to get around all of the noise of the past and present, I chose to just jump over the mountains of conflated concerns; Science, Religions, Philosophies,.... I then worked my way back and am still in process of seeing where in the future's history, man currently is.

Timing or time measurement is the most difficult endeavor of any prophet. Even Jesus couldn't divine and deal with its issues and he would be far better at it than I.

Also realize that the toe doesn't instantly know when the brain has incurable cancer. The body still functions, somewhat. The body still tries to add to and enhance its life. But to someone like me and many in the past, the person is "already dead. The body just don't know it." I see the cancer in Relativity and quantum fantasy physics. So to me, the "new-age religion" is already dead, it's body just doesn't know it. And it still has use, so it isn't "entirely dead", yet.

Similarly, as discussed in the Machine-age, SAM, and Information Distribution threads, there is a discernible cancerous end to the current globalist mindset. But the timing of such is ridiculously hard to define or predict. Just as particles and clouds have no surfaces with which to measure true sizes, exact times of their encounters with others, social movements and mentalities are even more so. Everything is a consequence of prior events and if one event is contingent upon merely 10 prior events, each with a 95% percent accurately predicted timing, the accuracy of the contingent event is merely 60%. And that is assuming that a great deal of data was known and accounted for.

Arminius wrote:When will the "new religion" be complete? First of all they had to create a "new theology" because they had to create some gods, divinities, godhoods. But after that they had to create that "new religion", and that has more practical aspects that we have been noticing for so long. Spirit is a taboo, although science is not possible at all without spirit. They are forcing more and more in their religious system. But obviously it is inevitable. The "new religion" is not finished yet. There is going to come something more to us.

When was Abram's "new-religion" complete? Has it ever been?

There is only one religion that CAN ever be "complete". And that one is necessarily based on a "coherent, comprehensive, and relevant" ontology (aka the very requirements of "Truth"). So far, I have found only one of those.

The current mindset is to redefine and juggle the books for the current Secular religion so as to attempt to reshape it into the inevitable while maintaining control over the Earth. If they redefine things sufficiently and don't lose too many reputation points, they can become what I have been calling RM:AO, but under their own name, and thus inevitable. It is a word game in trying to grab the throne of the Emperor God-king.

But their problem with that is that RM:AO:SAM doesn't allow anyone to have control over all the Earth. Thus they will inevitably fail. But it will most probably take a long time for the body of Man to know it.
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:57 am

The reasons why beliefs, thoughts, theories, metaphysical ontologies, philosophies of physics are different refers to the difference of cultures. Two examples of that much different that they are antipodes are the Apollonian culture and the Faustian culture. The humans of the Apollonian Culture always interpret physical bodies staticallly, the humans of the Faustian culture dynamically. So it is no wonder that in the Faustian culture a "Faust" came to the idea to interpret the dynamics (and no longer the rest position, the statics) as the normal state of a physical body and to postulate forces as the cause of this dynamics.

Newtons physcal theory is one of these Faustian physical theories, although there had been many more Faustian physical theories before Newton, especially those of Johann(es; Georg) Faust himself, or of Galileo Galilei, or of Johannes Kepler, and also after Newton.
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:01 pm

Arminius wrote:The reasons why beliefs, thoughts, theories, metaphysical ontologies, philosophies of physics are different refers to the difference of cultures. Two examples of that much different that they are antipodes are the Apollonian culture and the Faustian culture. The humans of the Apollonian Culture always interpret physical bodies staticallly, the humans of the Faustian culture dynamically. So it is no wonder that in the Faustian culture a "Faust" came to the idea to interpret the dynamics (and no longer the rest position, the statics) as the normal state of a physical body and to postulate forces as the cause of this dynamics.

Newtons physcal theory is one of these Faustian physical theories, although there had been many more Faustian physical theories before Newton, especially those of Johann(es; Georg) Faust himself, or of Galileo Galilei, or of Johannes Kepler, and also after Newton.

Yes, I find it interesting at times how cultures and genetics play into language and preferred ontological structures throughout the world. The Chinese have a very distinctively different memory method that strongly affected their language and culture. With their famous I Ching, they proclaimed that all things were either fixed or changing and developed a coded written language in an attempt to use that thought. In reality, there is no "fixed" but merely degrees of changing.

The Middle East tends to passionately extrapolate simple ideas to simple extremes. The East extrapolates complex ideas to complex extremes. And the Far East extrapolate complex ideas into simple extremes (much like me). I have always been able to very quickly understand the Chinese mindset and understand why it is that way for them. They more instinctively see "the bigger picture" due to their visual memory.

The West and North have interesting differences as well, but not quite so distinct. The North West (the Anglos/Brits) sense less immediate passion, giving them a very specific mental attribute. Most distinctions can be attributed to merely memory type and passion. Of course, the aggressive nature of their early thoughts plays into polarizing their future culture and their eventual gene pool. Today it is all being scrambled by the hubris of modern Man.


I worked a little on that emulation program and fixed most of the border issues, although for some odd reason, the afflates now tend to gather more into the lower right corner even though they should be random. I don't know what that's about, but this is merely a simple display. I took out most of the afflate interaction code so that I could render an emulation within a reasonable time. The amount of calculating required to properly adjust the vectors for these 64,000 afflates is ridiculous and takes many hours just for a few seconds of video.
Image

This one is a little better representation of "empty space" presuming it to be visible. In merely the distance from your eye out one inch, millions of cubes of that displayed space is traveled by every tiny bit of light that enters your eye. You can't see any of that because it is what both you and the light is made of. You can only be affected by disturbance in the ambient, such as a photon or particle, thus the ambient is always "invisible" to you.

And something to keep in mind is that literally ALL space is made of that same thing. It is impossible for any space to exist without it. The infinite universe has always had that going on in all locations and always will.

In relativity low density space, the kind that you can clearly see through, those afflates have extremely little interaction with each other. But if the density gets very high, their interaction results in substantial slowing down (although never actually stopping) and creating anti-entropy "traffic jams" more commonly known as "inertial particles".

Think for a moment on the fact that you are literally made of nothing but what that emulation is displaying merely varying in concentration from point to point in your space. A human is merely some uncountable number of those "empty space" cubes stacked such that from one cube region to another, there is a little density variation responsible for atomic structure and interaction.

You are very literally no more than a bunch of turbulent noise in space. :shock: :-?
:lol:
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
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Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:08 pm

Oh and speaking of thermodynamics, I ran across this little quip;
Principles of self-organization

The original "principle of the self-organizing dynamic system" was formulated by the cybernetician Ashby in 1947.[4][5] It states that any deterministic dynamic system will automatically evolve towards a state of equilibrium (or in more modern terminology, an attractor). As such it will leave behind all non-attractor states (the attractor's basin), and thus select the attractor out of all others. Once there, the further evolution of the system is constrained to remain in the attractor. This constraint on the system as a whole implies a form of mutual dependency or coordination between its subsystems or components. In Ashby's terms, each subsystem has adapted to the environment formed by all other subsystems.

The principle of "order from noise" was formulated by the cybernetician Heinz von Foerster in 1960.[6] It notes that self-organization is facilitated by random perturbations ("noise") that let the system explore a variety of states in its state space. This increases the chance that the system would arrive into the basin of a "strong" or "deep" attractor, from which it would then quickly enter the attractor itself. A similar principle was formulated by the thermodynamicist Ilya Prigogine as "order through fluctuations"[7] or "order out of chaos".[8] It is applied in the method of simulated annealing that is used in problem solving and machine learning

In the case of affectance in space, what they are calling "the attractor state" is higher change density (higher affectance density). Higher affectance density causes automatic ordering of the chaos into a particle, reducing entropy = "anti-second law of thermodynamics".
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

Re: Universe and Time

Postby Arminius » Thu Aug 28, 2014 2:48 pm

Note which word is chosen: "Attractor"! - That's Faustian.

Remember:

Arminius wrote:What you call "affectance" is nearly that what the mainstream physicists call "attraction", and that is especially true for the electromagnetic "attraction".

|=> #

Arminius wrote:
James S Saint wrote:Affectance comes much closer to being their "mass field" or "energy field".

But "affectance" is a word, related to "affect", ,"affected", "affection", ... and so on. So if I say "X has more affectance than X, and Y is affected by X", I can also say: "X has more (force of) attractance than X, and Y is attracted by X". – James, I know that you sometimes are using other words than the common physicists; but you should allow some comparisons because there are some analogies.

|=> #

Arminius wrote:The reasons why beliefs, thoughts, theories, metaphysical ontologies, philosophies of physics are different refers to the difference of cultures. Two examples of that much different that they are antipodes are the Apollonian culture and the Faustian culture. The humans of the Apollonian Culture always interpret physical bodies staticallly, the humans of the Faustian culture dynamically. So it is no wonder that in the Faustian culture a "Faust" came to the idea to interpret the dynamics (and no longer the rest position, the statics) as the normal state of a physical body and to postulate forces as the cause of this dynamics.

Newtons physcal theory is one of these Faustian physical theories, although there had been many more Faustian physical theories before Newton, especially those of Johann(es; Georg) Faust himself, or of Galileo Galilei, or of Johannes Kepler, and also after Newton.

|=> #
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Re: Universe and Time

Postby James S Saint » Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:58 pm

Arminius wrote:Note which word is chosen: "Attractor"! - That's Faustian.

But the word "attractor" is a misnomer (much like the word "force"). There is very rarely any actual attracting going on. The systems that they are talking about involve coincidental clinging or merging over time. Nothing is being "drawn in" or "attracted to", but rather merely delayed, bonded, or trapped once in proximity. A glue doesn't attract a fly, but rather traps a fly. They would have been more appropriately named "Trapping systems".

I suspect that the idea of "attraction" should only be used concerning conscious entities, although in a simple-minded materialistic sense, it wouldn't really apply there either. Life itself could be called an "Attractor System", because it seeks out (thus is "attracted to") and absorbs nutrients (traps), grows, and spreads.

A high density region of affectance delays coincidental propagating affectance that is passing through it, thus the affectance density increases toward a maximum density. Nothing is being attracted, but such a system is what they chose to call "an attractor".

Most attractor systems have no attraction in them. And they all break the "Second Law of Thermodynamics". Because that "law" was proven to be easily broken, they reworded the law many times in an effort to make it a truth (as I have mentioned before). It is actually a mere tendency. They insist on keeping it a "law" merely out of religious devotion. I have personally been attacked back in the 1970's by a professor for denying the holiness of the "LAW" (and many times online).
Clarify, Verify, Instill, and Reinforce the Perception of Hopes and Threats unto Anentropic Harmony :)
Else
From THIS age of sleep, Homo-sapien shall never awake.

The Wise gather together to help one another in EVERY aspect of living.

You are always more insecure than you think, just not by what you think.
The only absolute certainty is formed by the absolute lack of alternatives.
It is not merely "do what works", but "to accomplish what purpose in what time frame at what cost".
As long as the authority is secretive, the population will be subjugated.

Amid the lack of certainty, put faith in the wiser to believe.
Devil's Motto: Make it look good, safe, innocent, and wise.. until it is too late to choose otherwise.

The Real God ≡ The reason/cause for the Universe being what it is = "The situation cannot be what it is and also remain as it is".
.
James S Saint
ILP Legend
 
Posts: 25976
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:05 pm

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