No mention of hell or sheol in the Abraham texts to my knowledge, or him being threatened with them… So it seems to me that you are just assuming this as the subtext…
Also, I would say that Abraham, if anything, did it for the promise, to be the recipient of it, not for the punishment, and its avoidance… i.e., it was all about the generations for him…
And more, your account makes no sense because, if anything, Abraham willingly walked into the gun, it was not the motivation behind his action… It was more like this:
God: Come climb this mountain where I will point a gun at your head.
Abraham: Okay.
Note I mentioned Kierkegaard and Evolutionary Psychology and ‘Hell’ is merely metaphorical to represent real existential threats and dilemma.
This threat is represented in the following;
Philippians 2:12King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Psalm 55:5King James Version (KJV)
5 Fearfulness and trembling are come upon me, and horror hath overwhelmed me.
No big issue, to explain what the term meant in this OP,
“Abrahamic Theism” = Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
If you don’t think “Abrahamic Theism” is appropriate, just interpret it as theism in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Well… what would you call it? Adam and Eve theism? There are clearly passages where people exhort to Jesus as on the son of David (Jesus never refuted this), but in the story Joseph never had sex with Mary, and he was the descendant of David. The whole tale starts with Adam and Eve, moving into Islam and then Christianity. I’m not sure what your argument is here.
That is an entirely typical, and widely held, Christian belief regardless of whether it is supported by Biblical text or not. But I suppose no realScotsman Christian would believe such a thing.
I appreciate that there are Christians who openly question that belief, but you can’t deny that it has been part of Christian doctrine for a very long time.
The jewry (jewishness, judaism) is an abrahamic religion with an abrahamic theism.
It is a rhetoric trick or ploy to put some relgions together just because they refer in some quite unimportant cases to the same “thing”. If you take other aspects as a basis, then you soon notice that i.e. Buddhism and Christianity have much more in common with aech other than with any other religion. Buddhism is partly hinduism and partly not hinduism. Nevertheless: Buddhism belongs historically to the Indian culture with its hinduistic religion(s). But what do we want to know when it comes to live together? We want to know how our ethics amd morality are. Buddhism and Christianity answer this question very similarly. In this important case they on the one side and other religions on the other side are even opposites.
Then they would be sects… it’s still appropriate (since Adam and Eve (not Abraham) were the first people to meet God in person. and all three of these religions talk about them.
It doesn’t matter very much today whether religions “talk” about Adam and Eva or about Abraham, if the people want to know how to live together and under which ethical and moral conditions they can live together. The quintessence of the AT and the Koran is very much different to the quintessence of the NT. Today it is not important to know whether there were (“once upon a time”) Adam and Eva, or Abraham, and other fictional “persons”, eating, drinking, and lenten regulations. Modern Christian people are interested in their religion because they want to know whether their religion is social or not, hope-based or not, threat-based or not, what kind of ethics and morals is important for them, what will be after their deaths, what it has to do with their current lives, but they do not want to know whether there was i.e. “Abraham” or not. In addition: Ethically / morally it is not important to modern Christians to know very much about the NT, whereas Jews and Muslims have to know each sign of their holy texts in their holy books. In Christianity it is allowed to change the text of the NT, whereas Jews and Muslims art not allowed to change a tiny sign of their holy texts in their holy books. And: Christianity is not as monotheistic as Jewry and Islam.
They’re all hope based (faith based on hope) because they all preach the perfection of God and Gods creation and Gods will. I always say the most optimistic people I’ve veer met in life think everything is perfect just the way it is and that it all happens for a reason, and even if it doesn’t happen for a reason, it is still perfect, so whatever happens to them will be perfect and whatever they are doing is perfect and all is perfect. Even atheists do this. That really has nothing to do with the religion, although all those religions have that in common.
People tend toward using fear regardless of their original intentions merely because fear or threat is easier to implement. It isn’t a wise choice, but so very tempting that every group eventually heads that way. Punishment is easier than reward and more certainly effective to simple minds.
Fear Scatters - easy to arrange
Hope Gathers - not so easy to arrange
I wonder how the hell did anyone could put aside the concept of ‘hell’ if they are true Christians who has to take God’s words in the Bible as literal as possible.
Those Christians who DO NOT believe in ‘hell’ are pseudo-Christians and perhaps better human beings.
True Christians are those who believe in hell and reaffirm their beliefs to avoid these threats of hellfire and other violence listed below.
Here is a sample list of verses [summary] amongst hundreds others that directly and indirectly imply the existence and threat of hell if believers sin, become apostate and such a hell is reserved for non-believers.
Matthew
1156.Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned “with unquenchable fire.” 3:10, 12
1157.Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn’t the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17
1158.Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30
1159.Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14
1160.Those who fail to bear “good fruit” will be “hewn down, and cast into the fire.” 7:19
1161.“The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 8:12
1166.Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and “able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” 10:28
1168.Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn’t care for his preaching. 11:20-24
1169.Jesus will send his angels to gather up “all that offend” and they “shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” 13:41-42, 50
1172.Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it’s better to be “maimed” than to suffer “everlasting fire.” 18:8-9
1173.In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: “So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you.” If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35
1179.Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It’ll be just like that when he returns. 24:37
1180.God will come when people least expect him and then he’ll “cut them asunder.” And “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 24:50-51
1182.The servant who kept and returned his master’s talent was cast into the “outer darkness” where there will be “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 25:30
1184.Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an “everlasting fire.” 25:41
1185.Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46 Mark
1186.Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12
1188.Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11
1190.Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49
1192.Jesus tells his disciples to eat his body and drink his blood. 14:22-24
1193.Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don’t will be damned. 16:16
Luke
1195.Those who fail to bear “good fruit” will be “hewn down, and cast into the fire.” 3:9
1196.John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned “with fire unquenchable.” 3:17
1198.Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants “thrust down to hell” for not “receiving” his disciples. 10:10-15
1199.Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5
1201.“Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” 13:3, 5
1202.According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13:23-30
1203.In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31 John
1211.The “wrath of God” is on all unbelievers. 3:36
1213.Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6
dares to disagree with Paul on religious matters, “let him be accursed.” 1:8-9 Ephesians
1233.We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11
1236.Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6 1 Thessalonians
1239.God is planning a messy, mass murder in “the wrath to come” and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10
1240.Christians shouldn’t mourn the death of their fellow believers. They’ll be OK and you’ll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (because they’re going to hell). 4:13 2 Thessalonians
1241.Jesus will take “vengeance on them that know not God” by burning them forever “in flaming fire.” 1:7-9
1242.Jesus will “consume” the wicked “with the spirit of his mouth.” 2:8
1243.God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn our souls to hell. 2:11-12
Fear and trembling, in the spiritual sense, comes when one is reduced from ego to the existential state of subjective isolation. Abraham was asked to give up all that was dear to him in a test of faith. Only when he could believe God could make the best of a bad situation was Isaac spared.
Just compare the Old Testament with the New Testament and you will soon notice that the Old Testamet deals very much more with threat than with hope and that the New Testament deals very much more with hope than with threat. And the quality of threat and hope shows the same difference and relationship, also the violence and the quality of violence, …, and so on … The bottom line is that one could say: the Old Testament and the New Testament almost contradict each other.
So you don’t know what the Eastern Orthodox Church is. What is this history with you of speaking authoritatively on matters you haven’t really looked into?
Do you understand that it’s asinine to claim “The only real true Christians are the ones with the position that’s easiest for me to be critical of” when there’s a 2,000 year old sect of 300,000,000 members with completely other views?
Just take a few minutes to educate yourself on the things you freely choose to speak on. Nobody forced you to write this thread, so why go into it blind?
Calling someone a lier takes a few seconds.
It’s too easy. Proving someone is lieing may require minutes of thought, or more.
If everyone just posted a idea without argument or due process, it wouldn’t be much of a forum.
“You’re lieing”. “No, you’re lieing”.
It’s not a debate or an argument.