Did we Create God or Did God create us???

Hi again Guest,

Thanks for your reply.

You explained in your earlier post that God is the source of everything. However, unless this God is contained within the everything of which you are speaking, you are still left with something that was not created by your God, namely; your God. In this case, you would have to call on yet another higher God as the creator of the first God, ad infinitum.

So, an apparent way to avoid an infinite hierarchy of gods is to let your first god be the creator of himself. Of course, a simpler explanation would be to imagine that the universe just made itself. You achive the same result with one less assumption.

I wrote before, “But it’s a poor and shallow system of philosophy that depends upon the definitions for the explanations.” Suppose you gave me a definition of a Troll as a little person that lives under a bridge and casts spells. That is fine. We can define anything we like, real or imagined. Definitions are democratically agreed upon for the purpose of communication. However, any statements about these definitions must be based upon logic, not democracy. The point of my earlier post is that a system of beliefs needs more than definitions. We need to actually say something about the concepts we define.

Well, I have to rush off at the moment.

See ya,
Michael

Guest, whoever you are.
In response to your question…

…I have made the important words show as italics for your conveniance, but I besiege you to read everything.

From the book Miracle Mongers and their Methods, by Harry Houdini. 1980. Toronto, Canada. Coles Publishing Company Ltd.

• Fire has always been and, seemingly, will always remain, the most terrible of the elements. To the early tribes it must also have been the most mysterious; for, while earth and air and water were always in evidence, fire came and went in a manner which must have been quite unaccountable to them. Thus it naturally followed that the custom of deifying all things which the primitive mind was unable to grasp, led in direct line to the fire-worship of later days.

That fire could be produced through friction finally came into the knowledge of man, but the early methods entailed much labor. Consequently our ease-loving forebears cast about for a method to"keep the home fires burning" and hit upon the plan of appointing a person in each community who should at all times carry a burning brand. This arrangement had many faults, however, and after a while it was superceded by the expedient of a fire kept continually burning in a building erected for the purpose.

The Greeks worshiped at an altar of this kind which they called the Altar of Hestia and which the Romans called the Altar of Vesta. The sacred fire itself was known as Vesta, and its burning was considered a proof of the presence of the goddess. The Persians had a such building in each town and village; and the Egyptians, such a fire in every temple; while the Mexicans, Natches, Peruvians and Mayas kept their “national fires” burning upon great pyramids. Eventually the keeping of such fires became a sacred rite, and the “Eternal Lamps” kept burning in synagogues and in Byzantine and Catholic churches may be a survival of these customs.

There is a theory that all architecture, public and private, sacred and profane, began with the erection of sheds to protect the sacred fire. This naturally led men to build for their own protection as well, and thus the family hearth had its genesis.

Another theory holds that the keepers of the sacred fires were the first public servants, and that from this small beginning sprang the intricate public service of the present.

The worship of the fire itself had been a legacy from the earliest tribes; but it remained for the Rosicrucians and the fire philosophers of the Sixteenth Century under the lead of Paracelsus to establish a concrete religious belief on that basis, finding in the Scriptures what seemed ample proof that fire was the symbol of the actual presence of God, as in all cases where HE is said to have visited this earth. He came either in a flame of fire, or surrounded with glory, which they conceived to mean the same thing.
For example: when God appeared on Mount Sinai (Exos. xix, 18] “The Lord descended upon it in fire.” Moses, repeated this history, said: “The Lord spake unto you out of the midst of fire” (Deut. iv, 12). Again, when the angel of the Lord appeared to Moses out of the flaming bush, “the bush burned with fire and the bush was not consumed” (Exod. iii, 3]. Fire from the Lord consumed the burnt offering of Aaron (Lev. ix, 24), the sacrifice of Gideon (Judg. vi, 21), the burnt offering of David (1 Chron. xxxi, 26), and that at the dedication of King Solomon’s temple (Chron. vii, 1). And when Elijah made his sacrifice to prove that Baal was not God, “the fire of the Lord fell and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust and the water that was in the trench.” (1 Kings, xvii, 38]
Since sacrifice had from the earliest days been considered as food offered to the gods, it was quite logical to argue that when fire from Heaven fell upon the offering, God himself was present and consumed His own. Thus the Paracelsists and other fire believers sought, and as they believed found, high authority for continuing a part of the fire worship of the early tribes.
The Theosophists, according to Hargrave Jennings in “The Rosicruicians” called the soul a fire taken from the eternal ocean of light, and in common with other Fire-Philosophers believed that all knowable things, both of the soul and the body, were evolved out of fire and finally resolvable into it; and that fire was the last and only-to-be-known God.

What’s your take?

Pangloss,

With all due respect, I don’t see any difference. The universe was created. Right? An affirmative response automatically validates God. Now, whether you consider God as an “energy” or a big tall guy with magical powers is another matter. The important thing is that something or someone (somehow) created the universe.

Polemarchus,

That is almost what I’m saying! But that would still imply that the “everything” supersedes God. To be more precise, I would phrase it that God IS the everything. Likewise, God is also the absence of everything. This is what I was trying to relay when I said God is eternal.

Magius,
The excerpt was interesting, I couldn’t find an answer to the question I asked previously: “How can we create God when we were not around when he created the universe?”

Our fire-worshipping history seems only to reinforce the theory that we see God in creation. And I’m sure the cavemen and Egyptians were smart enough to realize that fire (hence God) existed before they did.

The moment an association between fire and God was made - did not, dictate the creation of God. At the most, it dictates our recognition of the existence of God.
[/quote]

Anima,
I understand your opinion on the matter, as I am sure you understood mine and the reason for posting the excerpt. I will change strategies and attempt to make you realize; what I claim to be the truth. In doing this I want to ask you what you think is the reason for differing religions if there is only one God. Moreover, which one of these religions has it right? Furthermore, why do religions also claim that it is their God who is right and no other, and if you believe in another than you are doomed for hell? (Specifically Christianity who comes right out and says it, other religions are a little more ambiguous about it)
One more, why does each religion claim God came from their land? Christianity was thought up in the area of Jerusalem and hence that is where Jesus travelled. China had beliefs in religions (usually scrutinized - communism) that took place only in China (especially since they have been barricaded from the world for hundreds of years).

I will continue after you have answered.

What’s your take?

Magius,

I am not a big fan of organized religion. Religion is a product of man and man is imperfect, yet religion regards itself so selfrightously.

I have a few favorite quotes that sum up my view. I look forward to yours.

I cannot believe in a God who wants to be praised all the time.

• Nietzsche

God has no religion.

• Gandhi

Men never do evil so cheerfully and so completely as when they do so from religious conviction.

• Blaise Pascal

Religions are founded on the fear of the many and the cleverness of the few.

• Stendhal

I’m not trying to paint all religions in the same light. Some religions, like Buddhism, are very open. Unlike Christianity, Buddhism is more of a religion of self-discovery - experiencing the God within you. (At least thats what I hear).

Don’t know why I always show up as Guest. ???

Well, in case you didn’t guess, I am the ‘guest’. Couldn’t figure it out until just now.

anima/guest, I’m not a big fan of organised religion either. However, you cannot paint all members of a certain religion with the same brush. For example, buddhism and hinduism are both very open minded religions, in their pure form. However, when it becomes corrupted, when dogma sets in, and the corrupt few begin to use it as a weapon for their own ends, any religion becoms oppressive.

The Hindu extremists in power in India at the moment, are a perfect example of this, they use a religion with a core message of peace and tolerance, and pervert it into a movement dedicated to violence and intolerance. Even Buddhism, more specifically tibetan buddhism, has been used as an excuse for violence in the past. Even now, sects within tibetan buddhism are fighting each other over who the “true” dalai lama is.
Even The Church of Satan, who states that they shun the Christian idea of dogma, are split because they cannot agree!

Even Christianity, which you place with the “closed” religions, was originally incredibly liberal. Read the first three gospels. Now compare this to the gospel of John, and the Epistles. The Epistles, written by St Paul the Insane, after the death of Jesus, contains most if not all of the really oppressive stuff in Christianity. St Paul turned the gospel (good news) of Jesus, into a dispel (bad news) of himself. For that reason, 99.9% of Christians really should be labelled Paulites.

However, certain elements within christianity are stil very open-minded, the Gnostic movement in particular

My opinion is that it is much more useful, and fun, to create your own system of beliefs, which can change as you do, with each new experience. The little-known “Make your own religion” movement has been encouraging this for decades. If you have your own belief system, i refrain from using “religion” for the moment, it is much more flexible than if you follow one of the established one. The larger religions have become loath to change, they have become, immutable. You do not have that problem.

If we created God, then why? to giggle like a little school girl at how gullible people are?
to feel smart? to get power? how do we know there isn’t a God?

If God created us, then who or what is God? why create us? what would it/he/she want from us? how do we know that he/she/it is there?

…well don’t look at me…it’s not like I know

From my observations, I think there is something greater then man. Theres more then the eye can see and the mind perceives. What is it? I don’t know, that’s why I’m studying philosophy and theology, to find out.

Study like the rest of us…You will come up short like the rest of us…

Are you the messiah?

HVD,
I like your new signature. Reminds me of Moulder’s phrase near the beginning of the movie when they are on the roof top (from movie ‘X-Files’)

Take care,

Thanks Magius, but i cant take the credit. That phrase was written by a very talented actor/writer called Patrick McGoohan. He created a TV show called The Prisoner, where he plays a recently resigned secre agent who is kidnapped and placed in a surreal Village (called The Village) He is always referred to as Number 6 )the prisoners are graded in terms of importance) and is interrogated by Number 2, who changes each episode. the phrase in my sig is 6’s line after he is given his number. The series is basically a treatise on the importance of individuality and anti-authoritarianism.

I recommend you check it out, DVDs on Amazon.com

pardon my…ummm extremely late reply… youngdude, was your last post a reply to mine? sometimes I get confuzled when everyones talking to everyone and my head explodes…but eerr any ways just wanted to say intresting comment, and no I’m not the mah whatever ah, atleast I don’t think so

I’m sorry this is off topic, but that silly, dumb brute has more unlikely flashes of intelligence that must be repeated:

1. Bart or Lisa asks why an amusement park the family is visiting was built in such a bad location. HOMER: Because they’re stupid. That’s why everyone does everything.

2. LISA (paraphrase): I’m not giving up on my [vegetarian] beliefs. But I was wrong to ruin your barbecue. I’m sorry, dad. HOMER: It’s okay. I used to believe in things when I was a kid.

3. Tour guide glowingly explains the Springfield newspaper was founded by Johnny Appleseed, who “roamed the country founding newspapers”. HOMER: If he’s so smart, how come he’s dead?

oops, it was actually Johnny Newspaperseed, a pun off the other.

another stroke of intelligence by Homer…

“If something is hard to do, then its probably not worth doing”

Anima stated:

So religions and all other supposed biblical texts and scriptures aside, we really don’t know anything about God, especially given your quotes. I liked Ghandi’s one especially. So we are left with an undefined label that we write as ‘G-O-D’. So isn’t it safe to say that there is a higher power, one of which we don’t know anything about, other than that we have this feeling that there is more to life, there must be something more out there, or that there is a higher consciousness? Any which way you pick from these, to me, is a thousand times better than any religious explanation because it doesn’t confine you, doesn’t claim you MUST believe or else. You are free to think, theorize, study, reason, etc and either come up with your own view or just agree to not know.

Anima stated:

My answer to you is, that God was around when our universe was created, if it was created, nor was GOD around for billions of years after. God appered as a concept around the time that we began to communicate with each other with really basic language skills as primitive humans.

Pangloss stated to Anima:

Anima responded to Pangloss:

Pangloss is right, I didn’t agree that the universe was created. I said that the popular theory amongst astro-physicists is that the universe expands and contracts. Despite that, even if the universe was created that does not in any way shape or form validate GOD. Ofcourse there may be something that might have created the universe, but why is it automatically GOD? What if there is something that created that something that created our universe? What will that be then? A Super-God?

What’s your take?

A genius once said,
“Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.”
Albert Einstien

This is my first post here, and I got interested in the subject because I am a little confused about my beliefs right now. I’m pretty sure I believe in God, but someone before touched the fact on how did he get here(that makes me wonder.) I’d like to believe in God, I was brought up to believe that way. Many great leaders and philosophers have ruled and lived by a god. The fact that we created God could be very true, but what happens when you die then? Do we just not excist? Think about that, our minds can’t really contimplate not excisting. Have you ever tried not thinking, it doesn’t work.

I take the side that we created God and that God was created in result of looking at what it would mean for God not to exist.

Religion in reality, is a philosophy, with questions, problems, and proposed answers. So then, the original question would obviously have been, why are we here. This then arose two ideas, one being a god or gods created us. Others then looked at the possibility that this may not have been and we may have been an accident or an event of science. This would mean that we were in this infinite universe, only one of many people on this planet and who knows how many more outside it. This would then mean that we were in actuality nothing, and totally insignificant, and would furthermore mean that there would be no life after death, just eternal non-existence. Depressed, intimidated, and scared of this, people began creating religions and deities to try and add significance to human existence. This was the beginning of religion verses atheism and existentialism in its atheistic form.

All in all, to me God is alive. Not in the literal sense, but in the sense that human emotion relies on the existance of God or some kind of higher devinity. Most people need a “crutch” (not meant to be condescending) of some sort to lend their burdens to. To most, it really doesn’t matter of God exists or not, its the fact that they have something to blame, to ask for help, to cry out to in need. No, I dont think that God is a real being, I beleive he was created by the human race for two reasons, one being more sinister than the ohter. God nowadays is humanities’ crutch, God in earlier days was humanities’ ball and chain. God may have been created as a means to keep people who possesed little understanding of the world under control i.e. a kind of law. All of the punishments listed in the bible for disobeying “God’s” rules and all of the promises given for loyalty to “God’s” rules may have been nothing more than a means by which to scare early man into living a life by the rules of another.