Does God exist...pro and contra

It is the big question isn’t it…well, the challange is simple…for both sides…
give me three reasons either for or against the existence of God. And too try to keep it short…

I shall start with the five classic proofs for the existence of God…by St. Thomas Aquanis.

  1. First Mover…everything is in motion so something must have set it all in motion…an unmoved Prime Mover.
  2. First Cause
  3. Neccessary Being…all things in the Universe are contingent upon something. Ultimate source of all contingencies…God.
  4. Greatest Being…you cannot think of anyting greater than God.
  5. Intelligent Design.

and here’s another proof.

Values exist in the world…(they tell us for instance that is wrong to kill little babies), but they are not in the world, say in the same way as a table or a chair. By definition then, they must come from outside the world/Universe…what is the only thing outside the Universe…God.

Let the Games begin…

Nothing in writting for or against. You listed the best i think reasons for god though.

But I do like the suggested reason of:
A human would not/could not realize the idea of god with out the presence of god. the highest thing man could understand/realize would be what ever is a step down from god. in short there would not be an idea for god with out a god.

The more i get into basic programing the more i see life as a programed experiment of logic. but as for the existance of a god as we know and understand the term. logic says no, basic instinct says yes.

These would be my responses to a bible basher coming to talk to me:

  1. First Mover…everything is in motion so something must have set it all in motion…an unmoved Prime Mover.

Not necessarily, some theories of space/time see the whole thing as a kind of 4D sphere, so there is no boundry. It just is. Whether this makes sense or not, my physics is only just beyond a-level standard and I wasn’t comfortable with all of Hawkings arguments.

Another theory, if you find the above hard to swallow, states that nothingness has potential (yes I know it sounds crazy, by so does zero-point energy and we can already create that!) and this potential means that when there is nothingness a big bang happens spontaneously to alleviate this potential (moves from ordered to chaotic).

  1. First Cause

When you get near singularity conditions (as you approach black holes/big bang/big crunch) there are no such things as cause and effect. In fact some physicists argue should the universe start contracting the cause/effect pattern would actually revese.

  1. Neccessary Being…all things in the Universe are contingent upon something. Ultimate source of all contingencies…God.

Then what is he contingent on? If you have a contingent, why not have it as ‘real’ space rather than taking that step further to an ethreal being

  1. Greatest Being…you cannot think of anyting greater than God.

Same as Decartes argument that God cannot diceive us because I can imagine a perfect being and I could not imagine one if he did not exist, and a perfect being cannot decieve. I can imagine a unicorn, but that don’t exist. A weak, and generally derided argument.

  1. Intelligent Design.

Nope, just evolution, explain the tail we start growing in the womb, the apeendix, etc. nothing intelligent about them. Why are we not self-repairing?

Values are taught by society (in my opinion, see old morality postings for a (long) read on this), some cultures thought it was a positivly good thing to kill babies, Mayans for example and their human sacrifice.

Oops, forgot to sign in, that was me :slight_smile:

And in response to the challenge to prove he doesn’t exist, well, that’s atough one. I can’t.

But that doesn’t mean he does.

ShortCut:Well, that’s Anslem said…the very Idea of God in the human brain proves the existence of God. Among the Greek Orthodox…God has planted this knowledge directly into our very nature. That is to say simple…within us is a simple sentence reboundig off our soul’s or pysche’s …God is.

There has to be a God/superior being/superhuman.

Have you had sex?

Great argument :frowning:

Why? I can imagine god being perfect but I can’t imagine perfection. I can’t imagine his actions or his thoughts. I could imagine his work because of the bible (assuming he’s the christian god) but I can’t create new thoughts of things that he would do. Like in vanilla skys at the end if you’ve seen it you will know what I’m talking about. How the guys fought for their existance.

We’ve never seen it or experienced it. In a way this is the next step down from what a god would be. If we knew perfection we would strive for it? But with all these questions on morality and the like it sounds like we don’t have the slightest idea of what god could be.

The arguement of “well you’re not god” comes to mind. But I think that would lead to the arguement of his existance which is pretty slow. I’m going to leave it here I want to see responses before I think more on it.

Three reasons for their being a God

One- If you beleive in spirits and spiritual forces, there must have been SOMETHING to put that faith-based belief there.

Two- Bible Codes which clearly show that a higher power created what seems to be a simple book. Bible codes have even shown Sept. 11th happening before it did.

Three- Fear of dying and/or fear of being hurt. Think about it, if you should not have to worry about a God or highest power after you die, then why do you cry when you get hurt, cry at a funeral, or have a fear of dying, besides the fact that you will not see certain people again. Then again, what difference does it make IF there is no God? :slight_smile:

I could sit here and list many many more reasons, but I will not say them. I think we all KNOW there are powers at work. However, we need to label those powers as rightfully good or evil, Holy or unholy…

Or we could have come up with a false idea. We dont need a higher “something” to place idea’s into our heads. Out of fear of death we imagine a god, and a spirit. this is one way the idea gets into our heads.

And that explains why there is god how? All that shows, is some fruitcake can add words into numbers and come up with a conspiracy. No definiative proof.

Fear of Dying is just that, fear of death, the unknown. Nobody knows what happens after death. All we have is Idea’s and Belifes.

I cry when i get hurt because the nerve in the area where i was hurt sends electrical impulse saying PAIN PAIN PAIN.

Why do I cry at Funerals Because I wont see that person again unless I Gamble right and choose the right religion and get to see them where ever they were sent if they were sent anywhere at all. Or I gave that person a large sum of money that now he/she is dead I will never see again. (no other reason. Loss is Loss)

Finnaly the smartest thing youve said to date. IF there is no god then people have died been murdered for EONS EONS EONS UPON EONS for a stupid belife. Hell the Jewish Cleansed a WHOLE portion of Western middle east Just because God said they had a right to. A killer who kills for god is still a killer.
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You are, how should I say, “ignorant”.

P.S. Thank God :slight_smile: your parents didn’t have the gay “gene”. Don’t even get me started on that crap.

Mr. Lee stated:

Following the same logic, all of us should have apriori faith in God. But there are athiests. Since there are people who do not believe in God, it must be that there really isn’t a God. This isn’t what I believe, I’m just showing you that your logic is invalid. You need to say something that carries a little more weight.

Mr. Lee stated:

Stating that Bible Codes show something clearly is a contradiction in terms. Unless you are the Messiah, I don’t see how you are above all the thousands of interpreters of the Bible of which it is extremely difficult to find a group whom agree. Please explain how the Bible shows clearly that there is a higher power, and when you say higher power what do you mean? How do you defend the Christian assertion that if you don’t believe in the Christian God you are doomed for hell, and what would you say about someone that has never even heard of the Christian God? Edify me as to where in the bible it is shown that Sept.11th happened before it did. You should be careful with your gullibility, soon you will be telling us that the Lauchness Monster is in Ontario Lake.

Mr. Lee stated:

We cry when we get hurt because we have pain receptors and emotions. Humans have a natural predisposition to fear the unknown, hence why we fear death - we don’t know what is going to happen. Using your logic, we shouldn’t fear death because we are going to meet with God. Unless ofcourse your going to argue that those who fear death are the ones going to hell. It doesn’t matter if there is a God or not, hence why we should focus on more viable and pertinent matters.

Mr. Lee stated:

You assume too much. Remember, good and evil was invented by us. So was holy and unholy. Words and concepts were created by us Mr. Lee, they weren’t here waiting for us like a rock we happened to stumble upon.

What’s your take?

The simple fact is that there is no substantial ontological evidence of God. My premise is based on the knowledge that this same argument has been in existence since the beginning of mankind’s ability to question and reason.

As humans we are limited and will continue to be limited in this regard until either death or while in the presence and illumination of the divine being in question. That proof is up to God revealing such evidence to us and if there is no God then obviously there will never be any evidence. As far as I am concerned, since the question must be asked then there is no evidence, at least in this case.

The current belief in reformed theology of the Christian church is that God has chosen those whom he wills to be enlightened. They derive this belief from what Paul says in Romans 9. That belief is only related to the Christian church, although in Judaism they believe that they are God’s chosen people. I’m not sure if that holds true in Islam? Very convenient though. Too bad for those of us of whom are not “chosen”.

The cause and effect argument is probably the best argument for God’s existence. The reason it is such a good argument is because the concept of infinite is too large for the human mind to understand. There needs not be an origin with infinite.

Without the enlightenment of God, this question will always be an unanswered question. Unless, you want to fly out to the end of the Universe, cut a whole in the wall, and peek through :smiley:. Wouldn’t it be nice though? to see what’s on the other side? Oh well, we must accept our limits and wait for death to reveal the answers.

-Jason
~Forever in Doubt of all things previously established as Truth~

gets a papercut and dies of blood loss

And how would you know you’re not chosen?

Because God chose me to be an atheist and unless God has recently added atheists to his list, I am forever and eternally damned to hell. :wink: Yes?

You can never know :unamused:

To: Skeptic

It seems that you are correct when you say that if we must ask “Is there a God?” then there is no evidence for the existence of God. But ultimately, there is no empirical evidence for the existence of one’s own conscious experience. And as conceived God is first and foremost a conscious being.

Conceivability and belief does not reality make, but it gives rise to notions of logical possibility if not empirical knowledge.

I believe that you are correct when it comes to your noting that death or some other evidence will reveal if there is a God or not, if it requires dying and entering some “afterlife”. But it is just as conceptually coherent that a God by it’s very nature is something that cannot be sensorily perceived by any means…and consciousness is the very thing found within the real world that answers to this type of property.

It is widely believed that consciousness depends upon an electronically functional physical organization(such as the brain) in order to exist, but this inference is due in part to correlations between the brain and conscious experience. My argument is that this correlation in general does nothing to tell us the extent of consciousness in the universe overall, and it certainly does not suggest that the brain CREATES consciousnes from the “ex nihilo”…if we accept this, then we may as well accept the Genesis account of God’s “ex nihilo” magic in creating photons from nonexistence by word command.

At any rate, if one conceives of God as a disembodied consciousness, then the point is moot. Consciousness is a naturally imperceptible substance forever beyond the scope of sensory perception. There is no empirical evidence that I am conscious, and there is no empirical evidence that you are conscious, as consciousness is a private phenomenon and cannot be discerned from physical process or phenomena. It would seem that if God exists, then he is in the same boat as us…more so…since there isn’t a physical manifestation of that consciousness to portray behaviors that others might infer that would indicate that such a being is indeed conscious.

Also, fear of death is but one motive for the idealism of a God, but also one can appeal to realistic cause and effect. Even if a God does not exist somehow the physical processes of the brain came up with the idea of a God…but this can also be construed to be a logical possibility that if a God exists that God caused the idea or notion of a God to arise within human brains, and for that idea to be practically indestructible in the sense that belief in God persists (and arguably will persist in the future)to this day.Ultimately individuals are caused to believe in God or caused to disbelieve in the existence of a God by either arbitrary brain process and social causality (if God does not exist)…or by a God.

But that is only my view.

Jay M. Brewer
phenomenal_graffiti@yahoo.com