Determinism and it's Religious Ramifications

Asok_Green,

Ughh, I just finished reading your entire thread on Determinism. Only a few interesting responses. I’ve created a new thread in hopes to persist your original discussion. Obviously, your original intentions were not to debate Determinism but to discuss the implications of the concept.

If I may clarify the main discrepancy that has been continuously perpetuated in the previous discussions (i.e. AG vs. Brad, AG vs. Imagistar). The boundaries must be set on the discussion or the discussion will never take place.

There are two types of “Free Will”. Perceptive and objective. The perceptive has no effect on the objective and the objective has no effecct on the perceptive. Mankind is limited to it’s perception, however, in our perception some of us have come to contemplate the objective. The objective is as it is whether we can percieve it or not.

Per our perception, we have concieved determinism as a logical possibility for the objective truth. In such a logical assumption, we incurr more questions. Such as what are the ramifications of such a concept on religion? This is what should be discussed. Do you agree AG? if you aren’t too burnt out on the subject to continue discussing.

For the rest of you whom would be interested in the discussion, this thread, again, is not to debate determism but to contemplate the implications when intertwined with the supernatural (Religion).

Well, to start this one off, here are “my thoughts” on the subject. Although, I can’t really claim them to be “my thoughts” if they were predetermined.

When we say religion, I would infer this to mean all theories, including Theism, Deism, Atheism, Pantheism, Panentheism, Polytheism, and finally Finite Godism. These are the seven primary world views of religion. We don’t have to discuss all of them but we can pick and choose as we feel intrigued to do so. I will define the seven if anybody needs me to.

I tend to contemplate Theism and Atheism the most as they are the most logical to me. So here are my thoughts.

Determinism (as AG had suggested) in a theistic scenario, would lead us to believe that God had mapped out every second of our lives in such a way that we might concieve it us just acting out his “play”. Although our percieved “free will” would lead us to believe that morality and choice existed, God’s complete control would leave it that we are all just “victims of circumstance”. There s more to this (such as what determined God) but I will leave it at this for now.

Determism as it relates to the Atheism scenario becomes much more perplexing. It is no longer predetermined by an original causal factor, such as God, but the determinate becomes “infinity”. No original cause but the continuous stream of events through out eternity.

I’ve got more, but much of it is too complex and dependent upon concepts that I don’t feel like explaining quite yet. (i.e. Thomist view of Pluralism/Monism, Metaphysical interaction with Natural occurences, etc.)

Tell me what you think? (if you do, that is)

BTW, determinism in no way suggests that we should just sit on our butts and let fate carry out the inevitable. It just means that if we do, we were predetermined to do so.

I don’t see any connection between determinism and religion. After all, every religion is based on its followers’ free will, isn’t it so?

Thanks for finally bringing this up.

Where did you get the idea that there are no religions based on the absense of free will? There are many doctrines that deny free will. I’ll stick to Christianity b/c you are Christian though.

Have you ever heard of John Calvin (1509-1564)? He is not the originator of the doctrine of God’s sovereignty (that would have been Paul ) but he was the first to clarify it. I actually take that back about Paul. There were also many from the old testament that presented the issue of God’s sovereignty (i.e. David).

Here are the five points of Calvin that are attributed to the doctrine of God’s Sovereignty:

1. Total Depravity - Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe in Christ

2. Unconditional Election - Before the world began, God chose certain individuals to be saved, not based on a foreseen faith on their part, but based on God’s own pleasure and will.

3. Limited Atonement - Christ’s death on the cross was intended, not to make salvation possible for every individual, but to actually accomplish salvation for the elect.

4. Irresistible Grace - The Spirit changes the heart of the elect individual in such a way that he certainly and freely chooses to believe in Christ and be saved.

5. Perseverance of the Saints - Those who have truly put their faith in Christ will not fall away , but will be kept by the Spirit’s power and will persevere until the end.

This is often referred to as Reformed Theology or Calvinism. It is what the Presbyterians practice. According to the Bible, God is completely sovereign or completely in control. No room for “Free Will”.

Spend some time reading Romans Chapter 9 and then tell me what you think.

Yeah, I’ve heard of Protestants. Of Calvin.
If we would all interpret The Bible the way we like it, there would be 6 billion religions these days. If I remember right, Jesus told the Apostles once, that if they want to understand The Truth, they should not limit to what it’s written, to the word. Because word kills, spirit sets free. That would explain Romans 9.

I think Romans 9 is a very good example of the theory that god is unknowable. What do we know of god? Little. What did the ancients know of god? Also little. I start this post in this way because I have come to a realization (thanks to ILP–especially TENTATIVE and BOB) that the bible cannot ONLY be interpreted literally. In any case, I do not think that Romans 9 is a condemnation of free will’s existance under god.

Even Paul, champion of early Christian doctrine, had to question his understanding of god and of scripture: Paul asks the following:

I think this leaves the door open for interpretation. In a sense, when Paul argues that god has the right to choose to forgive whoever he wants this does not mean that he previously chose their destiny for them and chose that they would not be forgiven. In other words, knowing that these objects of wrath were to come, he chose to make examples of them and NOT forgive them.

When it is written that “to the objects [humans] of his mercy, whom he prepared in advanced for glory” I am curious if it is possible to interpret it as god planned to offer salvation not just through the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, but through the upcoming covenant for ALL and that it is not that god predestined some to be saved and others to be damned. ANY THOUGHTS?

Besides, isn’t he saying that god created some people for the purpose of showing his glory? I don’t think this is something that god does regularly–it doesn’t apply to even one-tenth of one percent (.001 %) of the population. In fact, it may only apply to a few cases in the bible. Couldn’t it be argued that the people god chose to make examples of were already people that had bad qualities: pharaoh, Esau, Cain, et al.

Is any of this sound or am I stretching this interpretation?

ahh, but they are still yours even if they are predetermined… as they have occurred in your consciousness.

anyways that’s by the by.

you have distinguished beween determinism in theism (god pre-determins all events) and in atheism… (all events are determined by physical factors).

is it possible that there is a third way: that God is part of a determined universe… god’s existence is determined.

of course the immediate ojection is that if this is so, god is not an ‘ultimate’ being and therefore ceases to be defineable as ‘god’.

but i think this could be open to discussion. God could still be the ultimate consciousness even if ‘he’ could be attributable to causal events.

that’s not what i think… but it struck me as something worth discussing… maybe… any thoughts?

Can god exist if the determinist theory is accurate?
If god exists does this signify that we have free will or that god controls all destinies?
If god controlled all destinies does the belief that determinism does not negate responsibility still hold true?

Anyone able to offer some assistance?