The origin of evil

It is claimed by prominent western religions that the origin of evil began in Eden. The serpent introduced evil into the mind of Eve via doubt, thus sin or evil began for all if humanity.

But if explored a bit more, this is not the origin of evil. The serpent as well had to be introduced to evil or doubt.

Now if we take it a step further, it is claimed that the angel who fell from have did so because of conceit or pride, then from where did conceit and pride come from? Yet, was it not necessary for God to introduce the same doubt to the angels as the fallen angel introduced to Eve?

Doubt of course had to begin with the ultimate source: God as does everything according to the argument.

So why does mankind have to be held in contempt of God through evil if God is the source of evil?

:evilfun: evil did not start with a snake. it did not start with the creation of life by the hands of god. evil is what does not work for someone. it is of no use. it gets him nowhere. it slows him down. therefore it is avoided. soon to become what one would consider “beyond good and evil”. evil is in the eye of the believer. “do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” further readings of nietzsche would be advised.

I agree with our guest insomuch as evil is “what does not work for someone” or the “other” option. If someone makes a machine with a particularly “good” aim in mind and people use it perhaps in a way that is to derogatory for mankind - that could be called “evil” because it has perverted the intended consequences.

I think that “evil” is good turned bad or whatever turns good to bad. It is of course open to subjective judgement and therefore it can’t be a clearly described entity. If God deems Mankind “evildoers” then because they have turned his good creation to bad. Because love is what God is said to want from mankind, he can’t make it an instinct that people follow. Instead people have to want to love and trust God. Therefore God also has to allow the “other” option: evil.

Consequently, although God has allowed Mankind to choose evil instead of good, hate or fear instead of love, God isn’t the “source” of evil. Nor is the serpent the source either. But the story of Eden is full of metaphers that are self-explanatory - as long as you don’t overcook the meal.

Shalom
Bob

I think it good to point out the spurious origins of evil as Enigma has done. His last statement

Strikes right at the heart of original sin, a concept which has done much harm.

Too often the popular notion of Evil beginning with Eve in the garden has been taken as Gospel.

How can we not consider God allowing the capacity for evil as not being a consent for evil?

If God gives us the capacity for evil, then God itself is the origin of evil. Without this capacity for evil, evil would never be. It would be impossible for us to have evil as long as we do not have the capacity for it. Once God allowed us the capacity for evil, then God invented evil. If God did not want us to have evil, then God should have never gave us the capacity for evil. To claim that God doesn’t want evil, but wants us to have the capacity for evil refutes itself. If God doesn’t want evil, then God should never have given us the capacity for it or invent evil by giving us the capacity for evil.

If we have to consider that God is the ultimate origin of all things, then evil or the capacity of evil had to have an origin. To claim that Satan is the origin is a fallacy because “evil/doubt” had to be introduced to Satan somehow. Satan was an angel that was struck from heaven because the angel “doubted” God. It is assumed that the “doubt” that this Angel had was the origin of doubt. But Angel had to have the capacity for doubt granted by God in the first place in order to do so. The capacity for doubt and evil must have an origin. This origin leads only to God, the ultimate origin. Allowing the capacity for doubt and evil is a consent for doubt and evil in itself.

The serpent in Eden was God.

This is the statement that really lies at the heart of the question. But we must consider the fact that God is a mystery, we are far from understanding but are really still collecting the clues. I know that Christianity has very often acted as if everything is clear but it is very clearly not.

If I love my child very much, my first aim is to make him/her independant of me. In the case of God, if he loves his creation very much, then the same applies. This is one of the first principles of life that wisdom discovers.

Anything less than independance is constraint or even captivity, perhaps like the birds in a cage that are “loved” by the owners but never what they were created to be: free. Freedom for such birds is just as precarious as freedom for mankind. They could be snapped up by a hunting animal, just as we can be both: the hunter and the prey.

What we should be looking at, rather that a subjective term such as evil, is why life on our planet is bound by seasons and polarity. We feel that it is cruel or “evil” when we are the prey, but find it perfectly Ok to be the hunter.

Essentially the Riddle and all such questions are questioning the explanations of Mankind, not “evil itself” which I dispute exists as an entity for itself. The Riddle is really questioning our capacity to be hunter and prey - the latter being called “evil” because it doesn’t appeal to us.

Shalom
Bob

I welcome your perspective and appreciate your input on the subject. I also see where you are coming from in regards to not knowing everything about God. God is indeed a mystery, but putting together the pieces of God together which people commonly do through the bible we start seeing things that are really contradictory. One of those main tenets is that of original sin.

Original sin is credited as belonging to Adam and Eve through doubt imposed by the serpent. Now we have to consider where the serpent received doubt from. This is commonly ignored, but is it not a relevant inquiry? We hold Eve and Adam responsible for giving in to the serpent who influenced doubt upon them. Now doubt/evil must of come BEFORE the serpent and we understand that the origin of doubt is imposed to have started in heaven. But how did that angel (and angels) receive doubt unless God granted the angels the capacity to doubt? Once God granted those angels the capacity to doubt him, then God is giving his consent for them to doubt him.

The same applies to humankind.

I realize that the common argument is that God allows us the capacity of evil to have independance from him, but just by God creating the capacity for us to have evil is evil in itself. Evil is the capacity to not be good. It is a dichotomy of Good vs. Evil and not a continuum. By God allowing us to not be good, then God is inventing evil.

I do not think humanity deserves to bear the burden of original sin when the ultimate origin of sin/evil/doubt must belong to God and God alone. I also do not have a problem with considering a God with the capacity of evil. In fact, I think that is the better explanation of God than one in which God is omnipotent and the ultimate creator and created the capacity of doubt/evil only to dispise and punish it. That is contradictory.

Thank you for your polite and friendly critique. I also appreciate what you are saying, but my affinity to Mysticism denies that we have explanations. We only have observations and parts of a puzzle. That is why you observe contradictory explanations in the Bible.

If you note that “original sin” isn’t a terminology of the Bible and consider the fable, you find that the serpent was more “subtile” or discerning, cunning or with acute intelligence.

The serpent asks: ‘Is it true that God hath said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?’
Eve says: ‘We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.’
The serpent answers: Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know, that in the day ye eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened: and ye shall be as gods, discerning good and evil.

Now the difference between God’s warning and the Serpents reply lies in the subtelty. God has formed humans to be ignorant of good and evil, that is: they have no knowledge of the polarity of life and accept things at face value. Knowledge of the kind that the Serpent is referring to includes the awareness of ones mortality. They won’t die through eating the fruit, but suddenly be aware that they will not live for ever.

More late…

Shalom
Bob

BEFORE is a terminology that is connected to time. Infinity isn’t endless time but the lack of a clock endlessly ticking. It is timelessness. I believe that the whole episode of Eden occurs in this sphere, it is upon banishment that the occupants of Eden are transferred to earth (figuratively) and the fable ends.

I disagree because for me, evil is turning good to bad. The choice that the situation presents is to take the good or turn things bad. Giving people the choice doesn’t turn things bad automatically, even though Mankind rarely takes the good spontaneously, but has a tendency to take the things that people warn against. That is the outset that the fable is describing - no more.

Shalom
Bob

I understand your point in disagreement although it is not a case of giving people a “choice” per se with my perspective, but giving people the “consent” in which we have to credit to God.

I think our disagreement lies in your empasis of choice and I am not at the human level of consideration yet. I’m still considering God’s allowance for evil through freewill. In order for this allowance to occur God must give a consent for evil. If all is good through God and God is the ultimate source for all, any deviation of good (which would be evil) has to go through God and get God’s stamp of approval which is commonly termed “freewill.”

Now the blame for evil shifts to humankind with this notion of freewill. We have been granted the capacity for evil through a consent to deviate from the good or possess freewill which contains the capacity of evil in itself. It is as if we are passing the buck in regards to crediting evil as merely a mortal choice as opposed to ignoring God granting us the capacity to commit evil.

It is rather unjust in my opinion to continually emphasize human choice as being responsible for evil and holding God completely blameless for allowing us the capacity to deviate from good which is in essence evil in itself. It gets even worse when we hold humankind in contempt of God and hold God completely blameless for initiating freewill which again is a consent for the capacity of evil.

I guess what it all boils down to from my perspective is that evil had to have an origin and God must have introduced that be it through evil itself, allowing us the capacity for evil, or allowing us the capacity to deviate from good. If we must consider God as the ultimate creator then we have to consider it more intensely from God’s perspective as opposed to just degrading our own. This leaves humanity with a pessimistic outlook for itself and ignore God’s role to extend our blame. But we can easily hold God to blame as well for God is the originator and evil had to be introduced at some point through God. To claim otherwise relieves God from not only blame, but from power. God’s allowance for evil is a deviation of good and thus, at least in my opinion, the creation of evil. The choices of mankind are post de facto to the consent of God.

Speculation - the Bible is based on observation, not on substantiated truth. The Fable is clearly true if you are willing to look into your own heart instead of trying to bring blame into the story.

6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise; she took of its fruit, and ate, and gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.
7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were exposed: and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made for themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called to Adam, and said to him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden: and I was afraid, because I was exposed; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast exposed? Hast thou eaten of the tree of which I commanded thee, that thou shouldest not eat?”

The first thing that happens is the awareness, which in itself is not evil. But they became aware that they were exposed and became fearful. They hid themselves before God - this is where good turns bad. At the end of a chain of events, “evil” occurs. But where’s the problem? The problem lies in the fact that the trust is gone and that the communion with God only exists in an atmosphere of trust.

22 “And the LORD God said, Behold, the man hath become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he should put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:” Mankind is ousted from the realm of God. The bad must be finite and not be allowed go on for ever. Therefore the story only explains in a pictorial way, how Mankind transcends the creation and yet is limited by it.

If we meet this creator at the end of our days, we may have many questions. But I don’t think it will be a matter of what we think - that is where Job’s experience is important (4:13-17):

In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men.
Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.
Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:
It stood still, but I could not discern its form: an image was before my eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice, saying „Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?“

Shalom
Bob

I’m sorry, but is one God enough to explain things?

It seems to me that religions have been barking up the wrong tree this entire time. They just can’t answer questions by saying that God is all good and Man was created by God.

Perhaps it’s much better to state that there’s two Gods, one perfectly good (self motivating, creationist), one perfectly evil (self-defeating, destructionist)…and that united, they are both perfectly good and perfectly evil…and therefore, perfectly versatile.

Isn’t this what the Zoroastrian preached? Why stick to the hard way? I mean, if you want to go on the date to preach the validity of jewish thought, you’ve got to consider that Zoroastrianism is much older. If you want to say it’s because it’s more prevalent, you can just say that’s Lie winning over Truth. If you want to say that it’s because of its historical relevance, well… I fail to see how that supports in either direction. I could just as easily write a historical thesis with my own moral scripture and state that it’s valid because it’s historical.

Wouldn’t it make MUCH more sense to abandon this “One, all-good, God” crap and perhaps try a more dualistic approach? This would explain the origin of evil very well…it was ALWAYS there.

This is coming from an agnostic, mind you.

Good Posts! Makes great reading!

Indeed, the Gods were not always omnibenevolent, the Greek Gods were quite refined in methods of cruelty. I think as peoples settled in agrarian communities and ran into each other’s borders, they had to become more civilized, as did their Gods.

The cause of the slide from polytheism to monotheism has always intrigued me. A lot of it can be explained by us being more aware of our World and needing fewer higher powers to explain Nature’s mysteries.

Some very interesting perspectives and I’m thankful for all of them.

Bob - I agree with your assertion regarding speculation. But what is not speculation regarding God? It is just of my opinion that we are hasty to degrade the decisions of mankind towards God, but pay no heed to the decisions God has made for mankind.
If we look at freewill, we have to apply that the capacity for evil (or to deny good) is found within. Can we say that this not a creation of God? For God to give consent for us to not be good, then for what reason can God hold this against us? It is the biggest contradiction of all, yet we turn around a persecute humanity for denying god through “evil” but seldom if ever consider that our capacity to even deviate from good is a creation of God. The moment that God gave us the capacity to deviate from what is good, you can call this “independence,” “freewill,” “sin,” “doubt,” or even “evil;” but the moment that God granted us the capacity to hold such things then God in essence created such things. Again, without the capacity to hold such ideals, then we could never hold them without the consent of the ultimate creator. It seems conflicting to claim that God created such capacities only to dispise them. Why even create the capacity for something that you know is just going to make you mad? We question mankind on this, but God would have to be the irrational one to make such a decision only to dispise it.

Rafajafar & Marshall McDaniel - Interesting points and I agree with the possibility of your sentiments.
The history of polytheism to monotheism has interested me as well. Xenophanes is credited with imposing the notion of monotheism which was deemed as a form of pantheism. He is considered the revolutionary that first attacked polytheism. This was the point in which Gods (or God as it was considered at this point) were seperated from the restrictions of mankind. Then the relentless Sophists’ campaign to eliminate polytheism was really just an intensive form of skepticism to question popular contemporary beliefs which were for polytheism.

It is interesting how this skepticism towards God has decreased and we have become skeptical of our own logic in relation to God all in order to take the focus off of God’s logic which is still applicable and has to be considered initially, not in hindsight since God is the ultimate starting point. We point out the significance of our decisions and hold them against us, but ignore the pre-existing implications of our decisions which had to derive from a point of origin: God. We give God the credit for all that is good and give ourselves all the credit for all that is evil. How can this be? Without freewill, nothing could be evil. Without God’s consent, there could be no freewill. Without God consent, there could be no evil (which is found in freewill). God has consented to evil the moment he allows it. God is the creator of evil.

If there is one thing that I learned in Egypt, it was that even the Egyptian court of gods began monotheistic with Amon, curiously the “hidden” one, a primordial creation-deity, but with pluralistic “theology” come mythology. It was pre-dynastic Egypt that formulated the first ideas and beliefs of a divine being, which was expressed in pictures. Some scholars suggest that hieroglyphics were invented in order to communicate spiritual thoughts to the masses, our Egyptologist Tarek Amer suggested that the Hieroglyphics were a liturgical language which the priests read from the walls during the celebrations. Indeed, standing in those great temples, the latter seems a logical explanation.

Names in ancient Egypt were very mystic and powerful, which is something that Jewish tradition picked up. It was thought that if you knew a name you had power, or if you inscribed your enemies’ name on something, then broke it, that enemy would either be afflicted, or possibly die. In the same respect, using a name could be beneficial. The God of Moses doesn’t give him a name, which can be read as a refusal to be pliable. YHWH is more a mystical description which avoids what Moses is trying to achieve and turns the situation around.

Each Egyptian god had five names, and each was associated with an element, such as air, with celestial bodies, or were a descriptive statement about the god, such as strong, virile or majestic. It is a primitive way to associate principles of physical life, politics and social behaviour with religious rites and rituals. But it soon became a method of forcing people to bow down to political aspirations.

The ideas or principles behind the gods took on human traits. They lived, died, hunted, went into battle, gave birth, ate, drank, and had human emotions. Their reigns overlapped, and, in some instances, merged. Their was no organised hierarchal structure of their reign. The influence of the various gods depended on the beliefs of the reigning king, their area of dominance depended on where the king built his capital and, consequently, the myths changed with the location of the gods.

The creator of all things could either be Re, Amun, Ptah, Khnum or Aten, depending on which version of the myth was currently in use. Hathor, Bat, and Horus represented the heavens. Osiris was regarded as the dead king that watches over the nether world, rejuvenated in his son Horus and was worshipped at Abydos and Philae as the symbol of eternal life. Ptah coalesced with Sokaris and Osiris and was worshipped at Memphis. God of the annual flooding of the Nile was Hapi. God of storms, evil and confusion was Seth. His counterpart was Ma’at, who represented balance, justice and truth. The moon was Thoth or Khonsu. Re, the sun god, took on many forms, and transcended most of the borders that contained the other gods. The actual shape of the sun, the disk (or, aten), was deified into another god, Aten.

Jewish Monotheism seems to reject the idolatry that had people running from one god to the other, depending upon which King was in power. Perhaps it was born out of the notion that if there is a ruling force, then it is in no way comparable to human-beings. It is ascribed to Abram, who left his clan in Ur of the Chaldees and moved into the land of Canaan, that he was spoken to by the One God and followed him only.

I personally see this step as a liberation from the fears incurred by politically guided Religion – not that it remained that way, but it was a step away from the lightening argument – and also from the dualistic approach.

We may experience our world in a dualistic sense, and the contrasts or poles of existence such as light and dark, good and bad, male and female, winter and summer, spring and autumn, life and death, all contribute to such a view. But Monotheism breaks away, and Jewish Theism presents the view that all things are part of one creation – and good!

Shalom
Bob

Enigma expounded

This struck a chord. This would go far in explaining, for example, the scholasticism of the middle ages. Most believers of course believe God to be omniscient and infallible and therefore assume the error must lie with man. For them, therefore, there is scant motivation to expose the idea of God to the rigors of logic. The idea of accepting an unknown deity sight unseen without the use of logic is something that i personally find unappealing. Every logical proof of God’s existence has failed. Clearly God and logic are at odds, as many (including Luther) have seen.

Bob. For the early Egyptians the written word was magic as you have attested. Recent excavations (199x) at Abydos even seem to indicate that writing may have originated there even before Sumeria as was originally thought. The egyptians had other forms of writing (hieratic[used by the priests], demotic, coptic[stong resemblance to Greek]). I know demotic and coptic writing come later, but my question is: Is hieratic writing coeval with hieroglyphics? It has always been my understanding that the priests used Hieratic writing (kind of a secret cult) and that the hieroglyphs were for the lower hierarchy.

After perusing a history of ancient Mesopotamia, i find the same thing. Each city had it’s own God, the city of the King was usually the most powerful God, when rulership changed from one city to another the myths were rewritten to account for this, etc.

The reason the Jews were exiled is an interesting story. Apparently some King (I think it was the Assyrians) came up with the idea of exiling the indigenous occupants of a conquered land somewhere else instead of just killing them (which somehow failed to build up much support), or enslaving them in their home city (which also led to revolts). Thus the semitic peoples were exposed to other religions.

Bob said:

Interesting! We forget that monotheism was probably an advance at that time, even though it was still used for political purposes. Didn’t some ancient Egyptian King come up with the idea of monotheism in the BC? I seem to remember a movie about that.

Yep! That was me, failing to log in again :blush:

According to our Egyptologist, the Egyptians developed hieratics as a cursive, shorthand version of hieroglyphics. The reason is quite simple - it was quicker. For everyday writing hieroglyphics was too intricate - more so than even caligraphy.

The demotic script used by the masses was an even more cursive and abbreviated form of hieratics. Much simpler and devoid of higher education, it was more staccato and representative of the various languages of subcultures throughout the world.

Yes, the Jews were confronted with a number of religious Systems and Philosophies to which they adapted admirably, yet keeping and even developing their own. In fact, it was during the Babylonian exile that a canonisation of scripture became a theme which was carried out after their release.

Most of what we now know as the “Old Testament” was edited and organised after the Babylonian exile. However, a final canonisation came about far later - and interestingly enough, apparently as reaction to the Christian use of the Septuagint (or the Alexandrian version of the Old Testament) The Old Testament passages cited by authors of the first century of the Christian era, especially those in the Apocalypse, show many such variations from the Septuagint, and, curiously enough, these often correspond with the later versions (particularly with Theodotion), so that the latter seem to rest on a fixed tradition. Corrections in the pronunciation of proper names so as to come closer to the Massoretic pronunciation are especially frequent in Josephus. Finally a reaction against the use of the Septuagint set in among the Jews after the destruction of the templea movement which was connected with the strict definition of the canon and the fixing of an authoritative text by the rabbins of Palestine.
86.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SE/SEPTUAGINT.htm

During the 18th dynasty, there suddenly came a religious revolt in ancient Egypt, led by Amenhotep IV. During his 5th regnal year, the king announced a new religion for the state, the “Atonism”. This involved defying only one god, Aton (the solar disc), and rejecting all other currently known gods. To this effect, the king changed his own name into “Akhen-Aton” (This pleases Aton), closed all other gods’ temples and moved his capital north to Tel el-Amarna away from the influence of the priests of Amon. This religious revolt has been considered by all historians as the first significant step towards monotheism.
egyptmonth.com/mag06012000/magf1.htm

Akhen-Aton is said to have wanted to make the ancient Religion open for all people and take away the priesterly dominance - and return it to it’s Monotheism that had become lost. To achieve this, his took on other symbols and changed the name. It didn’t last long though and the priests took back the power they had lost.

Shalom
Bob

Thanks Bob. That was very interesting and informative.

We could all take the simple route here: If God created everything then he created evil. But what is evil to you? Obviously many Nazi didn’t think what they were doing was evil. Barbarians thought they were just doing there job. And most of all 9-11. The people who carried out that event and the members of there home nation did not at all think what happen was evil, they thought it was great. So I guess there really isn’t evil in the world just if you don’t like it or if it threatens you or makes you uncomfortable then you label it evil.
There was never a snake, the events of Adam and eve never took place. If you look in the bible there are two creation stories. The 1st story was written 2nd and the 2nd story was written 1st. The 1st one in the bible was written by the priestly source in 587 BC during the Babylon exile to explain why there is suffering, which was the snake, which symbolizes temptation. So it’s the way to twist anything bad in the world to the fault of man. Impose guilt on the man, and then you can make him do anything. Catholics are good at imposing guilt, there’s original sin, and your sins killed Christ etc etc.
If you read the bible not looking for stories but for looking for the point the stories are trying to say there are several references to where evil comes from. The main idea is the root of evil is from the desire to depend on ones self and not on god for life. I don’t know how true that, I don’t really think there is evil.