Non-Violence

Hi liquid,

Let me first agree that non-violence must be in every heart, and that is the only sustainable answer.

That said, I will reiterate that for this to become a possiblity there must first be survival stability, and there must be enough education that individuals become capable of looking at alternatives. A great deal to accomplish in today’s world.

And something I didn’t say in my first post. A paradox exists, in that those who have chosen non-violence must confront those who would threaten violence. To look inwardly is a given, but there must be a willingness to confront violence as well. If I threaten violence, and you do not confront me, your silence is interpreted as confirmation or acquiessence. Silence ‘legitimizes’ violence.

And so, what do you do when I approach you, machete in hand?

JT

No, silence gives us the tools we need to listen. When we listen we know what is needed. If I cannot listen, then I buy into the threat. The one who would threaten violence simply does not grasp this concept and runs off to find someone else to threaten.

Like attracts like. I would probably not be home. Timing favours those that are truly peaceful. The peaceful keep company with the peaceful. End of story.

A

C’mon liquid,

You’re sliding off the questions. I’m not asking about our personal responsibilities. How can we expect non-violence from those in abject poverty, who, for mere survival, must commit violence? My family or yours scenarios. These are played out every moment of the day. For too many, violence IS life. Not in pursuit of some abstract ideal, but simple survival. What do you say to them?

And what do you say to the mothers of Darfur who have watched their children slaughtered before their eyes? Bad timing? You should have been somewhere else?

JT

I’m all for non-violence but have a few questions as well.

  1. how far do we carry non-violence. In example do we stop killing animals for food?

  2. How do we make non-violence a universal thing? Like tentative’s example, if I approach you and you are bent on violence then you are going to respond with violence.

“Hi” joe says.
“WHAT.” Jack moodily replies.
“Easy, Jack… How was your weekend?”
“Like you care, jerk.”
“Jack, what’s wrong with you.”

---- Jack is trying to initiate confrontation.

Some people (like those in power in the US right now.) are bent on starting confrontations. Not every confrontation is needed.

At the same time though there will be those that approach us as individuals or countries that are bent on our destruction. No. Korea for example that is trying to arm itself with nuclear weapons. or venezuala, which believes that capitalism is the absolute world evil and if they could would wipe it out.

If someone approaches you with a gun, it’d be folly to think that because you act non-violent, your life would be spared.

The only way nuclear war was staved on the cold war was the “mexican stand off” of nuclear weapons. How should we approach such a situation?

obviously we’ve got to promote peace. but we can’t all together drop all of our defenses as the packs of wolves out there would devour us the moment we did.

JT,

You’re not listening. I’m talking about a solution to violence as a personal responsibility. I’m looking to myself as the cause of this violence which is reflected in the world outside. Of course the obvious is that I am a non-violent person. Yet who really knows what thoughts race through my mind over any 24 hour period or any 24 second period for that matter. If someone cuts me off in traffic, what kind of thoughts go through my mind? I might have a very aggressive attitude in whihc case I might hoot and shout out the window etc. etc. The person that cut me off was simply lost and a bit nervous for example but now I’ve aggrivated them. They in turn have become angry and have suffered an accident further down the road, thus causing harm to yet another person. This accident has caused a traffic jam and now countless people miss their appointments and have become aggrivated perpetuating this energy with every person they encounter. Do you see how unknowingly this is all because I lost my temper? The whole thing wouldn’t have happened if I simply observed that anger was arising in me, centred myself and turned my mind (focussed meditation). I’ve expanded myself to include the other person - yes we are ONE - I have understanding - the whole outcome would have been different.

On a deeper level it is our thoughts that create. People in powerful positions who have the responsibility of nations are merely a reflection of our collective consciousness. I know this is a little out there for y’all to cope with - but if we observe our thoughts for 24 hours, we will become aware of how we are collectively creating our environment.

As for atrocities that are committed against innocent people…I don’t know anything about their backgrounds and their soul journeys to even comment.

I do know that like attracts like - whether in this life or in another life, we would have had to have created the seeds in the past for them to ripen. Seeds always ripen under the right conditions and with the right timing. This is nature’s law. It’s very ordinary and natural. It’s called cause and effect.

A

Sorry Skythe, read my response to JT. And yes, we stop killing animals for food.

A

Hi liquid,

I do understand the personal affecting the larger whole, and I’m not suggesting that how we are personally doesn’t affect the consciouness of a community, a nation, the world.

Perhaps this is about perspective. You’re seeing the long-term answer and I’m looking at how the short-term violence controls the long-term possibilities of non-violence.

We all have our personal responsibility to control our violence, and that certainly does have its’ affects in the larger community, but…

Consider Tibet. Probably the most non-violent culture in the world. And yet, they have suffered unimaginable violence at the hands of the Chinese.

Our understanding and personal committment to non-violence is overwhelmed by those who would use violence as a means to an end.

It may be a bit more complicated than our personal committment.

JT

Yes JT, it’s complicated but to say it is too complicated for us to deal with is to give up before you’ve begun. We may as well stop off at the pharmacy later to purchase some razor blades.

As for Tibet, again…we don’t know the spiritual weight of that situation…it’s not for me to comment on another person/nation’s karma.

A

Until all the bullies on the playground are gone, being non-violent is tantamount to suicide. To think that the other guy is going to leave you alone because you are not reacting to his threats? The bully doesn’t care, he’ll beat you to a pulp till you do respond.

We cannot go out into a world full of bullies and wolves only equipped with the ability to be peaceful. The bullies will beat us, and the wolves will eat us. The won’t care that we don’t practice what they practice.

It’s like tentative’s example if you approach someone with any weapon in hand chances are they mean you harm… and if you don’t respond with something to match their weapon they will harm you.

The only way non-violence can ever work is if everyone drops their weapons at once. Otherwise the non-violent will be killed by the violent, and the violent will inherit the earth.

thanks for the answer about animals, I think that is the only way for true non-violence to propagate.

I’m talking about something far more radical than putting your weapons on the ground. I’m talking about peace that is first truly experienced. Peace is not a decision. It’s a realisation, and when it is realised, then world peace isn’t so far away. The story of Soddom and Gamora illustrates that it only takes one virtuous man to save a city. When one man is virtuous then all men hold the same possibilities. I’m an idealist…I prefer to look towards that which is possible rather than that which isn’t. It is better to cut the root of weeds than to merely cut the leaves so that the garden looks pretty.

Signing a peace treaty doesn’t remove the seeds of hatred and anger from a nation’s heart, from an individual’s heart. It only serves to delay the inevitable. If there is a seed of hatred, it will grow and eventually manifest in the world. We have to remove the seeds, then the only thing that remains is peace.

A

Hi Guys,

It is perhaps a paradox, but those who only want external peace and forget that they must find inner peace collectively destroy the external peace themselves. Liquid is right, we have to experience inner peace and then understand our calling to realise this peace in the external like the ripples that go out from a stone dropping in water.

This, however takes courage - just as much courage as it takes to fight as a soldier - and conviction. I believe that it may just be, that such courage is to be rated as courage in the threat of defeat. It is like planting a sapling in the face of destruction, because it is an investment for the future.

Shalom
Bob

Hi Bob,

As an ideal, as a realization, we must make that first step and then committ ourselves to it. The paradox lies in the reality that others with evil intent are also dropping stones in the water. Ripples from two stones cancel each other.

I still maintain that non-violence cannot be reached without adequate means of survival and enough education to see alternatives.

If you would plant the seed of non-violence, you must first prepare the ground to accept the seed.

JT

Hi JT,

I agree, but the Farmer only ploughs one field at a time. That is why the whole thing has to be a community effort, starting with me or you, spreading to family, friends and neighbours, and hopefully making waves strong enough to move outwards.

The preparation of the ground would entail developing means of survival and education of course, but it also needs an source of inner strength like some kind of ideal. I find that the Christian message hasn’t lost it’s strength altogether, but only if we can understand ourselves as complementary to other ideals. What is lacking is the development of inner strength that is pro-life in a nobler fashion than fundamentalists are able to achieve.

Whatever ideal you choose, it must be strong enough to face failure and disappointment, and it must not betray the aim it has set out to achieve.

Shalom
Bob

Hi JT,

This is all very well, but consider where you are planting your seed. The essence of mind is inherently pure - it needs no preparation it needs manifestation. The Christ self is inherently virtuous thus needs only to be unveiled. Remember the story of Soddom and Gamora? It would have only taken one virtuous man to save the entire city. The only reason it was destroyed was because there wasn’t even one man or woman who was able to act out of heart. A profound teaching on so many levels. If one man acts out of peace, he is capable of inspiring those around him to transform themselves. True power is not power over others but rather it is power over oneself and the power to move people. That was the whole effort of Jesus’ life.

A

Hello liquid,

What you say is all very true, and we have seen many examples of the person of peace inspiring those around themselves. I am in no way suggesting that we forego encouraging non-violence.

It may be that the essence of mind/heart is pure, but in an environment where violence is survival, manifestation of our pure essence of mind becomes a high class problem to be dealt with right after I have secured my immediate survival. That is the reality in too much of our world.

I can realize non-violence in my life, and I can encourage others toward that realization in their lives, but if the message that Jesus brought 2000 years ago can be ignored, then you’ll please forgive me if I don’t hold my breath waiting for mankind to ‘see the light’.

JT

HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)

BOB, I agree the war could have gone a different way; how much different though?
http://www.ilovephilosophy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=1655008#1655008

It is a difficult world we live in… :confused:

As I previously shared in a thread, my daughter died as a result of a car accident involving a drunk driver. Exacting revenge (violence) often seemed the answer… to these days I struggle with the notion that vengeance (violence) will give me justice. I realize that violence was not the asnwer.

On the other hand, having grown up in a neighborhood of bullets and crime, I can see tentatives argument that under some scenarios violence is an answer. How much police brutality should gang members endure if it will reduce crime?

Additionally, having grown politically, how will we fight fanatics that would destroy our freedom to enjoy pornography, beer, or television (I am not arguing they are ethical only that we should not prevent others from doing as they desire)? How aggressive should we be to fight off those that preach violence. While I can understand and almost practice ‘loving your enemy’, I have difficulty with ‘turn the other cheek’.

Again, I argue that the human condition, our very nature according to the torah, the bible, the quran, according to god, according to man’s own observations, is sinful: we make mistakes… mistakes for which there are consequences despite our well-meaning intentions or despite our innocence.

Others will not accept apologies for these mistakes. How do you compensate for a consequences of your mistakes? How could a drunk driver ever bring my daughter back from death? I can either choose to move on or choose vengeance (a mistake). It’s a tough world…

Moreover, a non-violent movement will be seen as aggression by others. While the non-violence may be the ideal, how to achieve it? Political action? If not, they will further argue that all movements require force… I will place some quotes here from a movie; however, how would you argue against this person if they hold to their argument as their belief system?

Certainly the statements are a bit extreme… but who can argue that there are many, many extremists?

Hi Bob,

Your observations are mirrored in the Tao.

"What has been well-planted cannot be uprooted;
what is embraced tightly will not escape one’s grasp;
And with one’s children and grandchildren performing the customary
rites
The autumnal sacrifice will never be interrupted.

Cultivate it in your person,
And the character you develop will be genuine;
Cultivate it in your family,
And its character will be abundant;
Cultivate it in your village,
And its character will be enduring;
Cultivate it in the state,
And its character will flourish;
Cultivate it in the world,
And its character will be all-pervading.

Thus you can use your person to survey other persons,
Your family to survey other families,
Your village to survey other villages,
Your state to survey other states,
And your world to survey worlds past and yet to come.

How do I know that the world is really so?
From this."

 CH 54  Tao Te Ching

I note that the ideal is expressed through the individual, who must first find peace within. It can then radiate to the ends of the earth.

JT

Hi T4M,

I am not really talkng about the war, which has happened and which America and all others who are caught up in it have to somehow end. What we are talking about is the policy of military intervention as a means to spread capitalism, democracy and Judeo/Christian values. Everybody is ready to jump on the Catholic Church and pound them for their missionary practise, but does modern poiltics do anything different?

Inherently, governmental policies must be driven by some kind of idealism which isn’t completely derogative for human beings. There is no use for Politicians if they do do protect their population as a whole. In the wake globalisation, this ideal must spread throughout the whole world. Anything other than that is a system of control and administration marked by centralisation of empowerment under a dictating authority, which induces stringent socioeconomic controls and suppression of the opposition through terror or censorship, including a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.

This is, I fear, how many people in the world experience the capitalism that went forth from America, supported of course by most western countries. It contradicts the idealism of most world religions and accepts the ravaging of generations to reach some heady goal that few believe in. The war on Iraq was really just another symptom of that, and not the main issue here.

Shalom
Bob

Hi JT,

Of course I understand the problem. There are hordes of communities whose everyday task it is to survive. I’m not taking anything away from them. All I’m suggesting is that by, as the Tao Te Ching expresses, cultivating one’s own spirit and by that I mean manifesting our inherent virtues, we are doing all the educating we need to be doing. I’m not in anyway suggesting that formal education is not needed - I’m suggesting that peace starts with the individual and this is what will save us all. The responsibility lies on the ones who realise this truth - on me, on you, on bob and so forth…

The responsibility does not lie on the ignorant nor on the ones whose mere reason for living is to survive the next violent crime. It is for these people that we do our work for when we truly realise the true nature of ourselves, we begin to influence our environment and the people in it.

An interesting excercise would be to turn our own minds into one of continuous positivity for one month. Then observe the difference in what we attract into our lives. For example, I used to live in London many years ago and I always struggled with the negativity of the people. They were always scowling on the tubes or frowing and this affected me to the point where I eventually left. Coming back years later with a completely different frame of mind, my experiences are different. Now I meet friendly, helpful, happy people whose expressions are ones of laughter and love. What is the difference? I am different and therefore my world is different an the world is different. If I can change my mind even for one minute of one day, I have done a lot of work towards world peace.

This is why I suggest that I don’t have to worry about violent crimes being committed against me - of course we don’t know what my karma is so that is another discussion for another thread - but what is within my power is to alter my environment. If I want a peaceful loving environment, it is within my grasp. All I have to do is behave in a peaceful loving way, and not just behave peacefully but to allow inherent peace to be revealed through my behaviour one step at a time. Of course this takes initial difficulty - one has to train one’s mind to thoughts of peace - this means one has to become aware of what one is thinking not just right now, but every second of every day. It’s hard but the darkest hour is before the dawn - we encourage ourselves because we understand the principle. We are diligent in aligning mind with our heart. Results are not immediately visible to us, but over time we grow and the world grows with us. We are all one - we all affect each other.

Now, we are vibrating on a different frequency. Peace is (like) a frequency - a spirtual frequency. This is key. People that vibrate on a different frequency won’t even notice you much less try to harm you, much like a dog is capable of tuning into a frequency of sound that humans do not hear. Do you see? Everything we need is right in front of us, we simply must learn how to see.

It starts with one person. Simple as that.

A

Hi JT,

Well, I rest my case then. :wink:

I feel that there is hardly any other way to see the situation. I see so many thoughts common to all religions, despite the different context. It is after all the conclusion that is important, not so much the way you reach it.

Shalom
Bob