Hey Dad What Do You Think About Your Son Now?

I’ve been thinking a lot about the relationship that many Christian relationships offer between soul and god; consequently, I started to think about the relationship between father and son. I have spent much of my life trying to impress my father with my accomplishments. Despite my much more impressive achievements my sibling’s position has often relegated me to a second class citizen… I never expressed my dissapointment at the lack of encouragement I received from my father.

Later in life, I became a Christian (I was raised atheist by my father and Catholic by my mother) I dedicated my efforts to creating a world which my heavenly father could smile down on… every thought was focused towards the glory of god. Much like the relationship with dear ol’ dad I felt that my actions were unrecognized and it became evident to me that god had ceased to speak to me (or vice versa)… there was an estrangement between the soul and god. The estrangement was amplified at the death of my daugther…

With the estrangement came resentment towards god.–a resentment towards all things religious and expressed with malicious and scathing attacks towards individuals that furthered “god’s will.” The norm was to mock believers by parroting songs, quotes, et al, that damaged the notions of god mocking those that stood in lines waiting for a saviour to descend from the empty heavens… I would focus my anger on the unaswered prayers and the suffering of mankind… I did not question my emotional response and largely, I felt that my soul was blackened and my heart emptied. The emotions I felt needed no justification and life was bland and tasteless…

In any case, at some point I began to analyze my thoughts, my beliefs, my responses, my life… I became more self aware and gained knowledge and wisdom to support my newly forming ideals and convictions. I eventually became an agnostic (that leans to atheism). I came to terms with the pain of losing a daughter and am much more open to the notions of god than ever. I no longer need approval from god or father–this has been very empowering. More importantly, I do not need praise from man or god to do good works.

I suspect a few of you feel the same way or have a similar story… I share this story because I think too many (I too am guilty) are focused on discrediting others’ beliefs and not focused enough on improving the world …focus on the good you can do and enjoy the doing of them. Enjoy the fruits of your labor for you reap what you sow.

I am no longer the son asking what his father thinks of him now… I welcome comments and stories.

Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.
What do you mean by “Accept disgrace willingly”?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss and gain.
This is called “accepting disgrace willingly”.
What do you mean by “Accept misfortune as the human condition”?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?
Surrender yourself humbly;
then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self;
then you can truly care for all things.

-Chapter 13, Tao Te Ching

Hi thirst4metal,

No parent should have to bury their child and being a parent myself, my heart goes out to you.

I begrudge no person their belief system, I do however, begrudge them trying to make me believe it (think doorknockers and fundamentalists). A loving god would no more cast someone into a fiery pit than fly in the air… Neither, for that matter, would a loving god make someone suffer as you would have at the loss of your daughter.

God has become a scapegoat for responsibility. Example - god will save the world, god will make your life wonderful…if you only believe. Actually, putting faith in a lucky rabbit’s foot would probably have a similar effect.

I can image that 100,000 years ago when people were looking for a reason for earthquakes and floods, and having no knowledge of how the world about them worked, the gods were a good reason. The gods must be angry etc., We have advanced in our knowledge of how things work, yet the belief systems have stayed the same.

I would say that you became mature and self responsible, that tends to happen when we analyse our lives, motifs and our belief systems. We gain knowledge about ourselves and why we function as we do.

I have studied the bible for nearly 30 years now (hobby - obsession ) and have come to realise that not many people who say they are christians have done the same. If they were to read it however, I doubt they would stay christians for long. Each of us has to walk our talk otherwise any belief system becomes pointless. I agree with you here:

I tend to focus on the good in the world, I don’t steal, I don’t kill etc., not because I’m told it is the right thing to do, but because it is the right thing to do. Throughout history it is the believers in a god that have done the most killing and stealing

t4m,

I was touched by your story. Our lives often present us with challenges for which we are unprepared and many times the return to harmony is a long procession, if it happens at all. I am pleased in your confirmation that we are capable of finding ourselves.

Our western languages and concepts make it easy to become alienated from ourselves and it follows, from that which is.

The understanding that one can improve the world by improving themselves is the cornerstone of wisdom. There is much that follows, but it’s a wonderful beginning.

JT

HELLO FRIENDS,

Today (June 16th) marks the eight year of my daughter’s death. My daughter was murdered in a car accident by a drunk driver while her mother was severely injured. It saddens me to say those words. I sometimes (to this day) hurt myself with the thoughts that had I been driving the result would have been different. I still find myself thinking malicious thoughts towards… this too saddens me.

Sometimes feelings get the better of me. It would be so easy to exact vengeance on the one responsible. However, I often think of how much I would enjoy embracing my daughter. I think of the things I wish I could give her, of the things I could teach her, of the things she could teach me. I think of the fun we are missing out on… As father’s day approaches I still feel an emptiness left behind by her absence.

It is this line of thinking and feeling that helps me understand a bit about what Jesus meant by love your enemy. Our enemies bleed and our enemies die. Everyone endures the consequences.

Hello Thirst

First let me say how difficult it is to adequately express my sympathy. Yours is a tragic loss and anything I think to say just seems superficial so all I can do is honestly pay my respects

This is really a very deep and personal topic. It probably deserves a thread of its own but not at the expense of your personal sorrow.

I would suggest not concerning yourself with loving your enemy. There is a more immediate concern you mentioned previously:

Before thinking of loving we must first be able to forgive. Forgiveness is a very profound topic. As I’ve come to understand it, we have to forgive for our benefit. We can’t think of forgiving another because someone asks to be forgiven. Instead we have to be able to forgive for the good it does us.

Without forgiveness we cannot be open and from the Christian perspective this closure severs our connection with the higher since we are so caught up with ourselves.

The psychology of the story suggests that the attitude of holding grudges and the like so perverts the heart that it cannot be open so is rejected. Now this is not the same as grief but the unnecessary holding on to grief where it is no longer sincere but the reaction to grief as in the desire for self justification and revenge etc. It is the degeneration of real grief.

My own experiences have taught me that I couldn’t truly forgive by denying my hurts, I had to acknowledge them, accept them, and gradually let the light of this acceptance begin to dissolve my exaggerations.

It doesn’t happen overnight but it begins with the attitude that forgiveness is not some wishy washy escapism but instead a profitable reality for yourself. As satisfying as it may be to retain our hurts and the feeling of validation by expressing them, we have to admit to the closing effect it has on our psych and the benefits of forgiveness for allowing us to become open again.

We cannot love our friends much less our enemies for their benefit when we are closed so first we must allow ourselves to gradually become open through forgiveness. It begins with the attitude that its benefits far outweigh any satisfactions from denying it. Of course the reactions come back at times but don’t suppress them or wallow in them. Only acknowledge and release them as worthless. It isn’t easy but I’ve found it to be worth it.

All the best

Having a think Mr. Thirst, get back to you soon.

Hi Thirst,

My heart goes out to you. I can’t offer much by way of words - Lau Tsu might though inspire us to look beyond this life as Life, to remember that her soul is eternal and thus never dies. We all come here, we live and we die. Our pain is our rite of passage, to learn about even greater things. Our death can then be seen as our birth. God bless her. She came, gave you the gift of her love. That lives on. That is always and always.

Acts at random,
In ignorance of
The constant, bode ill.
Knowing the constant
Gives perspective;
This perspective is impartial.
Impartiality is the highest nobility;
The highest nobility is divine,
And the divine is the Way.
This Way is everlasting,
Not endangered by physical death.

• Tao-te Ching

A

Hi Thirst:

A quick note: I’m not going to comment on your original theme of christian relationships, though I was brought up a Christian, I never familiarized myself with the Bible beyond the second hand mish-mash of Sunday-School. I am, as my students say over here, “Kıtapsız” - without a book. Irreligious. I’m not going to make any sweeping statements on the value of your religious choices, or my absence of them, a relationship with the divine at its best should remain a purely personal affair: A bubble containing only you, and the representation of God you can relate to/accept. As a father and a human being, however - these are my thoughts on the loss of your daughter.

I can only imagine what it’s like to lose a child. I have seen my son die in dreams and even at that giant remove the feeling is soul-destroying. You obviously think of Michelle often and she lives on in your memory - I imagine that even the process of coming to terms with such a loss brings its own added pain in that as you begin to heal, and think with less frequency of your little one, this whiplashes back and you torment yourself again for allowing her memory to weaken (however necessary to your own mental health). From what I’ve read from your other autobiographical threads you seem to have retained a positive outlook on life, do not beat yourself up for that.

(You already know this) - Of course it would have been different. And almost certainly your daughter would have been alive and well today. But you weren’t driving. It happened. You had absolutely no way of predicting events so made choices bound by the limits of the knowledge you had. You chose according to the situation as was. Do not play the what if game. That path only leads to destruction and isolation from those you choose in retrospect to blame. Behind the scenes in even the most mundane of situations there are always a million variables in play. I’ve been in 3 car crashes, none injurous to anything beyond the vehicles involved, and always the cause and effect chains stretched back into infinity. If only I hadn’t been talking… If only I hadn’t gone through that amber light… If only I hadn’t been listening to that tape and driven that ever so slightly faster… If only I hadn’t been angry at that bloke… If only I’d stayed at home another 5 minutes, or left 5 minutes/1 minute/30 seconds earlier. Multiply this by the same number of options open to everyone you encountered on the road leading up to the accident, and the only rational choice is to put it down to bad luck. Exactly at the wrong place, exactly at the wrong time. I’m sorry if this sounds cold, and easy to say coming from one who has not experienced what you have experienced. But I cannot allow myself to think in any other way.

A very mundane discussion and decision over a coffee in the kitchen saved the life of our child a few years ago. We decided to change our obstetrician fairly whimsically, simply because we didn’t like his brusk manner. We changed to a seemingly less qualified guy, who during his first ultrasound scan, noticed that my wife’s cervix was dilated more than normal and the baby was sagging in the womb. He said that unless she was stitched up imeadiately, the baby would be born both prematurely and most likely dead. Instant shock and panic. Anyway - to cut a long story short, it still terrifies me who close we came to losing our only child.
If we’d stuck with the same guy…If we’d decided to wait another month… If the subject had never come up… If the telephone had rung…

I agree - the temptation must be appalling. Purely personally if anyone willfully attempted to hurt my child I would try to prevent them by whatever means necessary and exact vengeance upon those that succeeded. Would I have beaten that drunk to death on the kerb…? I don’t know. I pray that I will never have to find out.
Those that drink and drive, they do not mean to kill, it is manslaughter, not murder. Bullshit. They have made a choice, the same choice that anyone makes when they chose to chemically impair their brain functions to a point that will effect their actions. They make the choice to renounce accountability for those actions, and they make the internal statement “I no longer care about the consequences of my actions.” And in doing so - temporarily renounce their humanity, become organic mechanisms, things which simply react, rather than choose. Which is of course why drinking and getting high is so damned attractive. Getting shitfaced in a bar is fine. Getting (even moderately) shitfaced in a bar with your car-keys in your pocket - that is something else. People aren’t stupid - Everyone realizes that if they drive drunk they up the chances of having an accident, they up the chances of having a bad accident, they up their chances of killing someone. The drunk-driver does it anyway. (Sub)consciously he/she says “Fuck-it, I don’t care.” Guilty as charged, wether they actually cause a death or not.
If a dog bites the arm off a child, the dog is killed. A dog is an organic mechanism, its self-awareness and ability to choose different courses of action in response to a situation is at best, questionable. Does a drunk driver deserve to be treated as fully human in the eyes of the law…? He chose to obliterate his humanity with alcohol. Reduce himself to a bunch of knee-jerk reflexes and impair even the senses that could keep him and others from harm. Then he put himself in command of an object which amplified his ability to cause harm. If a dog bites the arm off a child, the dog is killed.

Vengeance is easier in that it is a choice you make once, carry out, and then becomes part of the past, finished. Forgiveness is hard. Because the choosing never stops, you must choose to forgive the same person the same act, again and again, everyday.

You’re a nicer and better human being than I am.

[size=75][Sorry - that was a bit of a ramble. I feel very strongly about issues where blame is avoided and punishment mitigated by reasons of ‘diminished responsibility’ There is always rational choice involved on the part of the perpetrator, unless they are totally congenitally insane, and then I would look to their keeper/carer/doctor.

If my thoughts have offended, or I have inferred something wrongly about how you feel, tell me and I’ll edit/erase or apologize.][/size]

Once again - Sorry for your loss.

Hello T4M,

Thanks for the PM, but I don’t know whether my comments could be any better than those who have written before me. Your loss triggers off a wrenching in me and I can only really say I’m sorry. Over the years of experiencing the loss of others, being the male nurse who should have a healthy distance to the fate of his patients, I must say that the mourning of the bereaved doesn’t leave me cold, nor does what you have written – between Germany and Boston despite this anonymous network there still is that emotional link that makes me saddened by your loss.

We have one son, my wife having had 3 miscarriages trying to have another child. I remember my fear when we let him go to school alone for the first time. I walked behind him at a distance, wincing at each potential danger, feeling for him in his insecurity, asking myself how I could be as mad as to send this little person off on his own in this rough world. If anything had happened to him, I would have felt like you do. However, these little personalities that we are given for a short while have their own destiny. We can’t live and we can’t die for them, we can’t do much at all really, except be there and accompany them through the short time we have together.

I am enflamed with rage when I hear that children are harmed – especially in cases like yours when the behaviour of supposed adults causes suffering and even death. There are numerous examples, and numerous opportunities for me to become angry. I think that is what separates me from the eastern “dispassionateness” or composure. I am more like those Psalm singers who bewail the injustice and lament the evil that we are exposed to. I cried bitterly when my wife had those miscarriages, sitting on the floor hurling abuse at God, asking why he thought that we didn’t deserve another child. It’s all emotion of course, but it is what we need to cope with such situations. It’s a like Jacob at P’niel, wrestling with God, demanding his blessing and gaining a new name – and a dislocated hip!

The Bible is full of such examples. If you take them literally, you won’t understand it, but if you apply them to the existential experiences we have and with the way we try to cope, you suddenly recognise that they are appropriate. That is the nature of much of scripture. It helps you understand what life is, and gives you support and direction. In some ways it is a Truss holding us together, although evangelicals would tear me apart for saying so, and we need it because we are weak at such stages in our lives.

Your relationship to your Father and/ or God as a Father may have been influenced by Catholicism, even though the influence may have been slight. The image of a father is in many aspects of the Torah and the Gospels, but we should be careful to understand it within its context and not globally. It would be wrong to stress that God is a Father and make the connotation to human fathers. One of Gods attributes that people have experienced and subsequently associated with God is his fatherliness.

If you read the blessing in Numbers 6:24-26 (which has even been found inscribed on a small silver leaf from a necklace dated 7th century before Christ), you can recognise perhaps the attribute we would like to find in a father:

YHVH bless you and guard you;
YHVH make his face shine upon you and be gracious to you;
YHVH turn his face toward you and establish shalom for you.

Judaism and Christianity give great significance to the number three. There is a “triune” aspect to God (apart from the Trinity) in that we recognise a “judgmental side” (figuratively his left hand), a “merciful side” (figuratively his right hand) and compassion in “his heart” which reconciles the two. We regard ourselves safeguarded with the “left side of judgment,” given grace from the “right side of mercy” and find shalom in the harmony of their balance.

This is the Father that loves and protects you, who kneels down to you and smiles graciously, who is affectionate towards you and tries to establish Shalom, comprehensive peace, in your life. This is the Father we all yearn for, and long to be – and which we fail to be.

Shalom
Bob

T4M.
Hey dude,
I’m new to this site and I really have’nt been famillar with your writings but I want to say thank you for sharing your personal experience with us all. It takes a lot of courage!

My condolences for your daughter!

…

T4M,

Like you I love Metal (Slayer, Lamb of god)…I was raised with cathlic and then Christen parents and later on became agnostic. I also understand what you mean with your relationship with your parents reflecting your spiritual/religious experience. I too had to deal with that as well.

I want to share that becoming agnostic helped librate me from a lot of exoteric mythos of Christianity. Until I had destroyed…my realtionships with my parents and religion that it was when I could open my inner self/higher being.

[Know thyself]

Only after my deconstruction that I could establish deeper relationship with my parents and appreciate Christianity depth psychology/mysticism, philosophy, and openess to all other religions/mythos/sytematic thoughts.

Sometime we need to go through the process (grief,struggle,communication,etc…) to understand the hiden truths or higher meanings (letting go of the ego).

Take care.

Dear Thirst,

My heart goes out in sympathy for your devastating loss. I cannot imagine the pain that you have suffered and endured.

I know something of the temptation of retribution. Revenge entices by falsely offering to bring us peace of mind. It is completely false because vengeance heals no wounds, gives no relief and provides no reprieve from the experience of pain.

There is one message that is common in prayers of desperation. Please, please make this not be happening. Give me another chance! If only I had…

The mind can conceive of endless possibilities and of endless ways that things might have turned out differently. The power of the mind to explore the future can be turned back upon the past to illuminate the threads in a tapestry of untouched potential. From there we can draw daggers that strike our heart with merciless precision. We can hurt ourselves far more accurately and ruthlessly then any other torture could ever hope to even in his wildest dreams.

There is a line from a Fiona Apple song that I can identify with: “I’ve done wrong and I want to suffer for my sins.”

It’s a vicious cycle. As you make yourself suffer for a mistake you made then you only reinforce the significance of that mistake, thusly justifying all the more that you need to suffer because you made it.

I am sure you know this, but it is worth repeating: It was not your fault.

Forgiveness must have its proper value. Forgiveness given instantly is near worthless, while forgiveness withheld forever is also near worthless.

Hope is both our damnation and our salvation; it is both the worst and the best of what makes a man. You have already recovered some hope. As you have already indicated it is best to look back not to imagine the kinds of things that you might have done, but to the things you wish that you could have done. That is the path of good hope. Follow where it points and you will discover genuine heart/core/soul contentment.

i am so sorry. i wish i could say something, anything to make you feel at least a little bit better, but it lies within you and,frankly, i am much too naieve to know of emotions like you have bore.

you are such a strong person that nobody could notice the agony that you carry with you. most people are aged immediately and simply have no energy left for life, but you can obviously live life to the fullest with that amazing power you posses.

the worst is over, and you are still alive and thriving. things will only get better from now on, i beleive.

i truely care for you, and i hope you share your feelings/troubles with us more often. i may not be much help whatsoever, but im here for you.
we shall hug and cry together.
hug

thirst4metal,

I just discover this thread!

1. The father thing.

I realized toward the end of my high school years that my dad was just some guy. I mean that in the best sense. I have no idea what my dad’s secret dreams were or are. Maybe he has none. However, both of my parents were poor, but very nice, people that seemed to sacrifice everything to have a family. I started to realize that my dad was tired most of the time and maybe didn’t realize what he had signed up for. Anyway, he was kind of a boring guy.

Meanwhile, I was involved in sports, painting, music, and all kinds of stuff. As I got older I was into having all kinds of adventures. I even had a radio show that got good ratings. My paintings repeatedly won contests. Somehow all of this would just get a hmmm…that’s nice and so forth. I bugged me a bit but I just looked at him as being one dimensional.

Years later I got into a great doctorate program with an internationally know guy heading it up. He is one of my psychotherapy heroes. It was like getting into a program taught by Freud!

I called my dad to tell him the good news! He said, “oh that’s good…did you hear that they INVENTED A NEW POTATO!

Part of me wanted to go crazy on the phone, then I realized that he just did not care about stuff like getting into a doctorate program, so I discussed the potato.

2. Death

I was raised to be an atheist and would never want to talk a person into becoming religious. However, I do get a lot of religious clients in therapy, so I have to come up with strategies for them. When they get depressed about pain and loss in the world I remind them that our lives here are supposed to be a test. Tests are supposed to be hard.

The pain that we suffer here is but an eye blink in the face of eternity. So, a person could suffer horribly here, but handle life so well that they get into heaven and stay there for eternity. After about a thousand years in bliss I wonder how much they would think about their suffering here? That would be like saying that your life was ruined by a paper cut that you got in third grade!

For the religious life here should be nothing. Suffering is god’s way of paying attention to you.

Personally I think that that is just a bunch of rot, but the internal logic of it is sound if you accept the premise.

t4m,

I was overwhelmingly touched by your post, and although I have written to you privately, I want to address the other issue of religion. I won’t go into it, but I have had some sadness in my life, which is one of the reasons why I stay so mundane and silly here at ILP. When it gets too close to the bone, I usually go and find the funny bone - because the other is too painful to think about.

There isn’t a day that goes by when I don’t worry about my children – and these accidents happen so quickly that we never really get to say goodbye and that is so sad and difficult to live with. My spiritual quest in my life has been great, and unlike most of you here I have been several religions, and always felt that my own spirit knew something that others did not. I can’t explain it really, but I know God gets me… and I never go to church or a temple… I have studied Judaism, and Christianity, and through my search I have found organized religion to be contrived and hyopcritical… I think Jesus would be ashamed of the way most Christians hold themselves in higher esteem than their brothers of other religions. Do they forget that Jesus and his family were Jews? They practiced Judaism. Do these Christians actually think they are the all-knowing when all of these other religions have been around centuries longer? I certainly do not mean to offend, but this is what I see day in and day out. Maybe I just have lived in the Bible Belt one year too long.

I am rambling, but why is it that I have such a sense of empathy that so many of my Christian neighbors do not? Has the belief in their sins being forgiven by confession etc. made them lose their original sight of being good for goodness sake? My belief is that God is a loving God and could never allow a hell. I believe that hell is on earth. We make our own hell, by not loving each other, by having no empathy for one another, by spewing dogma unrelated to our neighbor and their beliefs, and forgetting that their’s are just as meaningful to them as ours are to us. “You reap what you sow.” is what I live by. I also live by the golden rule written by Jesus because if we all did that this world would change instantly. These are standards I try to live by and by no means have mastered. I am the same as everyone else. We are the same. We worry about our happiness, our money, our success, and our fulfillment. We dwell on and are driven by “self.”

I have to believe in Heaven. I live to go there and be with my lost loved ones. Maybe all that is hocus pocus, but if it is real, I want to be there when it happens. Maybe we invent such things to get us through the day. But, I have had experiences that lead me to believe that I am being watched over by those who are gone – and that keeps me on the straight and narrow. I try to do the right thing in life, not out of fear of hell, but knowing it is right and good. Whoever is in charge up there will know that I tried. That is all any of us can do, is to try.

This spoke to me because I have spent a lifetime trying to please a critical parent and have finally realized that I am good, and knowing that is enough to please myself. My heart goes out to you in your thoughts of losing your little girl to such a tragedy.

Sara

Lovely… did you write that Bob? It is truly beautifull.

I want to add that my generalization of the Christian faith was irresponsible. I have had some very bad experiences where I live, which is a town with little diversity or blends of cultures. Being a mixed faith is foreign to anyone here - For the first time in my life, I have been treated like a leper. Religious fanatics in packs frighten me anyway, and this place is full of them. I was in a mood when I wrote that, and I didn’t mean to judge or offend. Peace.