Problem of Evil-God to Blame? OR US?

The notion of free agency is essentially tied to the question of accountability in religion. Similarly, the fact that God created a universal of wrongdoing, or “evil” if you like draws (in my mind) 2 questions:

1) [b]Can we maintain an All Good God in light of evil and our capacity for evil?

2)[/b]To what extent (if any) are humans accountable for “wrongdoing” in light of God setting our nature and our unique physiological contraints leading to our respective orientations on many levels.

I have enclosed some of my notes on Anselm’s Fall of The Angel that I think would serve to stimulate and begin debate if anyone wants to take it up. If not, skip Anselm, give your thoughts.


For Anselm, if one has reason, one can be aware of what justice (uprightness) is. And if one can be aware of what uprightness is, then one can act on it. For Anselm, justice is uprightness as noted above, but further, it is keeping uprightness for its own sake. That is, keeping uprightness for no other reason than to keep uprightness e.g. not for one’s happiness. Freedom for Anselm then, is the ability to choose to act on justice or happiness. In order for a creature to have freedom (free will), it must have two ultimate motives or wills: 1) happiness, 2) justice. Only beings who can make a choice/discern between uprightness and happiness are subject to praiseworthiness and blameworthiness.
Moreover, keeping rectitude for the sake of rectitude is the same as willing rectitude for Anselm. Rectitude of the will equals willing rectitude of the will. As long as one wills it, one is preserving it. It is not the case that one has the will to keep rectitude and at the same time not preserving it. ~(will rectitude ^ ~preserve rectitude). The will is prior in nature, but the two are simultaneous in time. Two things can happen at the exact same time but one of those things can be responsible for the other. Take for example a locomotive that has a caboose attached behind it. Once in motion, the movement of the locomotive and the caboose are simultaneous in time, but the movement of the locomotive is prior in nature. Say we have spectators watching the movement and person A asks “what caused the movement of the caboose?” The answer would be that the locomotive caused the movement of the caboose. Although they were simultaneous in time, the movement of the locomotive was prior in nature. Similarly, the willing of rectitude is prior in nature but simultaneous in time to the preserving of rectitude.

To help clarify the type of being described above (a being that has reason and is aware of rectitude) from a being that does not possess such attributes described, a distinction will be made between the two. A being that does not have reason can not be aware of what justice is. A being that can not be aware of what justice is can not choose justice for its own sake. A being that can not choose justice for its own sake, can not will it because it is void of such a will for the reasons above. If such a creature is void of the will for uprightness for its own sake, it has only one will rather than two. The only will it has is the will to its own happiness. If a creature only has one will, it is not free because it can not discern and therefore can not choose. Anselm claims we can not hold that creature blameworthy nor praiseworthy for such a creature could not do anything but what it has done and can not do anything other than it will do. This is not to be confused with the following situation for example of a being that has two motivations and claims that he did something and could have done nothing else: A man is arrested after crashing into a store while drunk. In defense, he claims that he could have done nothing else because he was drunk. To make clear of this type of creature, he is a creature who chose to drink and chose a series of decisions that afforded such a scenario to unfold. This creature is nevertheless free, therefore, blameworthy and praiseworthy.

Commenting upon the issue of the will, we now face the notion of motivation in this scheme. Consider the following case: One might ponder a person who acts to keep justice but because this brings this person happiness. That is to point out, that this person’s motivation is to acquire happiness. If this is the case, even if this person only commits acts considered just, he is not keeping uprightness for its own sake, but rather committing acts of justice for the sake of happiness. This person is not getting to justice. Strictly speaking, freedom does not consist in the power to have or act on either of the two motives. Rather, freedom is to “choose” justice for its own sake. The sake for which one wills something is one’s ultimate end.

It is important to identify what it is to “choose” since this term used is essential in understanding the type of being at issue. Distinguishing choosing from picking, picking is the power to be arbitrary, to choose is to assume that there was a dilemma so to speak or potential of dilemma. To pick is to opt for something for no partial reason. For example, coming upon shelves with perfectly aligned cans of Campbell’s soup, one merely picks one for no reason other than the will that one wished a can of Campbell soup. To choose is to act upon a dynamic with the will to uprightness for its own sake and the will to happiness both availing themselves. This would make clear that anything that chooses does so in a “dilemma-esque” fashion in that there was a conflict of what one might call “interests.” This assumes that no two things are identical ~(A=A) or (A=/=A) God cannot choose because to do so would point to a defect in his nature which naturally is not the case in Anselm’s view.

Tying all of this back to Anselm’s claim (humans who have lost justice cannot get it back), it would be prudent now to explain how it is that a being loses justice and can not get it back. Anselm relates: Everything comes from God. Our will to justice comes from God. And even God is not able to remove uprightness of the will. That is, he can not remove uprightness from a will which has it. Injustice is the absence of justice and the absence of justice and not having justice are blameworthy. Injustice is the absence of justice where justice ought to be. Taking Satan as our exemplar, once he chooses happiness in abandonment of justice, that is sacrificing justice for happiness, and there is only the prior will for happiness remaining, he ought not to have it “because of his merited fault.” From this, Anselm concludes that he “is in no respect able to have justice from himself when he does not have justice, because [he is unable to have it from himself] either before he receives it or after he deserts it. He ought not to have anything for himself.” That is, a being who has lost justice, loses it because it willed happiness, abandoning rectitude for its own sake. Thus, although the devil can not get justice back, he is nevertheless blameworthy because he nonetheless has the capacity to be aware of uprightness and is blameworthy for his initial choice to abandon rectitude. In short, once a being chooses happiness over justice, it loses ones justice. And since one has nothing from himself and since everything comes from God, it is only God who can give it back.

Further elaborating on the fall of the devil for purposes of understanding why it is that a being who loses justice cannot get it back, we have the case in which Satan was free and had the ability to choose/discern between happiness and rectitude. Satan chose happiness, deserting rectitude. In order for Satan to have chosen happiness, sacrificing rectitude, he must have believed that there was a chance that he would not be punished because punishment would not yield happiness. The fact that Satan lost his justice does not make Satan an “un-free” being. Satan therefore is not alleviated from blameworthiness. Rather he is different from say a dog who has only the will to happiness and not the will to justice for its own sake. The relevant distinction between two such creatures (one which only has the will to happiness, the other which has the will to happiness and the will for uprightness for its own sake) is this: Not aware of the notion of keeping uprightness for its own sake a dog lacks the will for uprightness for it own sake which leaves him only one will: happiness. Satan on the other hand is aware of uprightness for its own sake which is sufficient for being a free creature. Concurrently, Satan has lost his justice and can not get it back. Satan therefore can not choose justice for its own sake but is still a free creature whose actions are blameworthy and praiseworthy.

Anselm, then, has two main claims: 1) This is not God’s fault, 2) Justice goes away forever if one chooses against it once. Anselm explains (how it is) that any being is at the same time capable of sin and blameworthy for sinful deeds, and at the same time created by an all Good God. How is it that we have the power of sin? Anselm replies to this question by pointing out that we have a good power that sometimes fails. Anselm proposes the notion of “aiming and missing.” We as humans can intend on doing something but fail. According to Anselm, God gave us two good things: 1) will to happiness, 2) will to justice. At our own fault, these two conflict. We have a perfect will for justice that sometimes interferes with our will for happiness. As an illustration, if I create a nuclear program to attack innocent people with and do it, certainly it is not the programs fault because it could not help itself. The program was not free, I created it and it could have only done what it did because it could have done nothing else. It is my fault because I exercised my freedom and committed the act in light of a choice. Therefore, if God created us with only one will, God would be at fault because if this were the case and we only had one will, we could not be free and therefore we could not choose, thereby making us creatures who could do nothing other than what we do. From this, Anselm draws that humans have two good wills that come into conflict by merit of our own fault, thereby maintaining that God is all Good.

Hello F(R)IEND(S) :smiley:

Man is fully responsible for his actions; therefore, he must be held accountable for all his ‘wrongdoing’. This applies in most scenarios. If god exists, then we are fully responsible. If there is no god, then we are fully responsible. If free will exists, we are responsible. Now, if free will does NOT exist, we are not responsible and cannot be held accountable.

Free will exists.

For Christians, biblically speaking, an “all good god” exists precisely because we have free will.

Some argue that free will and god cannot co-exist: Here is one biblical argument that may work:
The same can apply for Judaism and Islam. To begin with, all these religions hold the Torah as part of the holy scriptures. So, god created us in his image–does this mean, in absolute terms, that we were created in his physical image? How about with his omniscience (knowledge of all)? Were we created with his omnipotence? Most would argue that we are not. What image of god were we then created in? Free will. God created us to be able to choose, much like god can choose. How else could we choose to eat the forbidden fruit? That was a choice. To eat or not to eat, to believe or not to believe… choices are evident throughout the bible. I gotta run… but I hope you can see where I’m headed.

I will be back to discuss Anselm’s proposals…

Hello AVICENNA A.D.

Are you kiddin? You’re driving me bananas with these questions. :slight_smile:

Being aware of uprightness does not automatically lead to the ability to act upon it. Becoming accountable is more then being aware. Our being described by St. Paul as the “wretched man” doesn’t allow it. Romans 7:

If Paul couldn’t do it (will rectitude ^ ~preserve rectitude) how are we to do it as we are? We are not accountable until we can begin to be able to deal with it. If we’re in this unfortunate position, how can we be responsible? Responsibility begins when the possibility for choice begins.

Reason is one thing but our being leaves us subject to inner conflict. One needs more then reason which is the purpose of help from above in the form of Christianity.

True, our scattered being leaves us in battle with ourselves and without human will so we have no choice in the objective sense that could transcend our self serving limitations. We do not even understand free will. Consider how Meister Eckhart puts it:

Assuming the existence of this higher being, would happiness be the attraction or dominance? "Is it better to serve in heaven or rule in hell?. Is the choice between happiness and rectitude or dominance or rectitude? Would his opinion of himself be so strong that he couldn’t die to it. It would mean suicide. The gospels teach that we must die to ourselves so that we may live. The Holy Spirit allows this transformation. Satan denies the spirit so is stuck with himself.

Yes if we see Creation as a necessity; but that is another thread. Buddhism considers the effects of universal laws as suffering. If the creation of this suffering is a necessity, how can it be considered evil? If it is necessary, it is just. Evil can only be considered in relationship to our aim. Karma or action occurs. We can define it as evil but it is just the results of the interaction of laws serving a necessary purpose.

Man created before the fall and what he became after the fall are different. Choice, at this level of fallen man, is an ability that is gradually acquired as man begins to “see” and consciously works to regain what was lost. By ourselves we can do nothing which is why help is needed and what the great traditions have tried to provide. Jesus provided the possibility for us to objectively understand the problem. We’ve decided to point fingers. One doesn’t have to follow the other, it only feels good and that is part of the problem.

well you can’t blame something that doesn’t exist.

evil, is the cause of a couple of things a trinity I think of laziness, lack of empathy, and selfishness.

-mb

(btw, T4M I like your new greeting.)

God cannot be all good. I do not remember the name of the story in the Bible but this one makes me feel like God is not all good. It is the story of where God makes a bet with the Devil that no matter what he does to his man(don’t remember the name) that he will remain loyal to God. I can’t see how an All Good God can be all good, when clearly here his is not doing good?

My solution to this is get rid of God in any arguement with good and evil. Person prove that God exist before you look for answers from it.

EZ$

Hi Scythe, your the first one to comment… I thought it was humorous because it addresses EVERY possible combination. Of course, it is not meant as an insult to ANYONE.

As Nelson of the Simpsons would say: “Ha, Ha!”

The problem of Good and Evil we all know so very well,
that which drew us hither to reside twixt heaven and hell.
Between a so rock solid, a foundation right and true
and a hard place so seductive, which temps by flattery and ruse.
The flesh a darkened golem wherein exhiled angels bound,
weakened by the carnal plight and anchored to the ground.

Through divine atonement
the damned are thus redeemed,
by virtue of the knowledge
procured by the fiend.

Look, they have become as one of us - knowing Good and Evil.

Nick A wrote:

How so? I find awareness of rectitude; the ability to introspect/refelect on it; and correctly inferring what a just act would be when confronted with a dilemma the sufficient condition for being able to act on justice. Someone please explain how you may reflect and be fully conscious of justice and at the same time not have the ability to do a just act understanding clearly the correct choice before acting.

easymoney wrote:

By what means have you ascertained that God is clearly not doing good in the case you brought forth above?

Problem of evil? Evil is defined by the perciever, thusly the only ‘problem’ is created in ones own mind.

Says who?
The argument ‘because it isn’t fair to judge people on grounds on which they have no ultimate control’ relys on ‘fairness’ being some sort of universal standard which must be answered to, which it simply isn’t.
Free will is an illusion, but we are also accountable for our actions.

Hi everybody,

I’m sure you are all familiar with Viktor Frankl’s freedom:
“We who lived in the concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: The last of his freedoms - to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.”
From Man’s Search for Meaning

There is this moment between signal and reaction, between influence and response, between oppression and uprising - or loving your enemies. In the concentration camps, the consequences didn’t bring the complications that life now brings, so the resolution to choose the attitude with which I lead my life was clear cut. We decide whether an experience is good or bad by reacting in this or that way to it.

This is in effect the freedom of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. We have a choice if we are willing to bear the consequences. If we decide to oppose the evil that we meet with goodness, hope develops out of such a situation like the flame that is kindled from a glowing wick. If we choose not to decide, we slide into that evil and become part of it.

Frankl’s freedom isn’t a lot, but it is decisive when everything around you turns dark.

Shalom
Bob

Hello F(R)IEND(S)

Says me based on my understanding of free will. I guess I’ve had trouble wrapping my mind around free will not existing. I’ve read some arguments and am unconvinced… could you help by explaining your position?

Also, I don’t get it… No free will = no choice = no responsibility. Could you expand on how we are to be held responsible for our actions and not have free will?

At the risk of veering this thread further off topic I will answer your inquiries.
First, I just don’t think freewill makes logical sense. no descision is made nor action taken born out of a void. There are always factors you can percieve (I am watching this movie because joe told me it was cool) as well as factors that are not always obvious (the case of the movie was the same color as my first hotwheels car, subconciously invoking pleasent memories and influencing my decision to choose that movie) involved.
Personaly, I see every action and every ‘choice’ as being the end result of possibly hundreds of thousands of prior actions and ‘choices’(as well as genetic dispositions), which themselves were each the result of X amount of factors, ad infinitum.
But although I don’t think freewill exists, here is the kicker:It doesn’t matter. Because we can only experience ‘time’ (if there is such a thing) in a linear fashion, and because we lack the raw computing power and data analysis teqniques to predict anything based on these billions of deterministic factors that make up a human being, the reality becomes indistinguishable from freewill.
So though I don’t see free will as an objective reality, it exists to each of us as a subjective perception.

To adress your other concern, I reject the idea that no choice=no responsibility. That sounds good and in an egalitarian utopia where the fairness police are on duty at all times that just might work, but in the cold hard reality of it fairness is just an ethereal concept in our minds…free of any substance within natural law.
If you do the crime, you should do the time. There is no need, in my mind, to look ‘deeper’

Hello F(R)IEND(S)

Dr. Satanical, on your first paragraph I have the following to state: yours is the best explanation I have received regarding deterministic logic. I thank you for this. Though I am still struggling with the idea that influences or factors used in the decision making process eliminates free will. Is it suggested that free will can only exist if there are no influences/factors behind decisions? A followup question: Do believers in determinism consider these influences/factors to be the sole cause of decision making?

Is determinism influenced by all factors: date of birth, location, type of parents, friends, et al?

May I enter a scenario: one is born, one is influenced by one’s environment, one develops character and personality, etc… then each of these influences and factors are part of the decision making process correct? If so, does it not simply LIMIT free will? Or is free will still not applicable?

This seems possible if free will did not exist; however, the thought occurs that if someone could understand these billions of factors they would be able to influence the results… if this is possible would it follow that we are NOT responsible for our own actions?

What are you basing your rejection on? I ask because I picture a car in the far left lane swerving and hitting me (in the second lane next to this car) and causing my car to hit another car… I had no choice or part and how am I responsible? Or am I missing your point completely?

Sincerely curious.

In theory, it could. I just don’t think it does. The way I see it, pretty much everything you do, be it a descision, action, or thought, is the direct result of X amount of deterministic factors. I don’t think we ever actually ‘choose’ anything, and the moment when we percieve a choice being made is actually just the cumulation of X amount of factors in X amount of chains of causality.

Sure, all of these things would have a place in their own respective chains of causality. The degree they would effect your life would be dependant on a multitude of other causes and effects.

No, I would say these things constitute the decision making process.

No, because in so doing they would just be following another chain of causality (finding out it is possible to predict >> trying to predict >> finding out results>>trying to influence results)

I don’t see how that follows at all. In this scenario you are sugesting free will exists, and if so we are by default responsible for our actions ( acording to the gods of fairness, anyway)

Yes, you are missing it. In your scenario you can trace the fault back to a persons ‘decision’, and the fault wasn’t yours. My position is that people are responsible for what we percieve as their decisions, regardless if they are really theirs or not. like I said, free will doesn’t exist, but it apears as if it does.

In my opinion, the only reason for society to hold anyone accountable is to persuade the person to act the way society wants. It’s completely irrelevant if the person is ultimately responsible for his own actions or not. If society punish killers, people are less likely to kill – and the result is a better society for the rest of us. What other reasons do we need?

I agree with Dr.Satanical that “fairness” is not a universal standard, and must therefore be defined by man – for instance in a book of law.

HELLO F(R)IEND(S)

I think I am getting a better grasp of determinism. Basically, determinism theorizes that when the cumulative X factors in Y amount of chains of causality lead you to a destination point “Z” where Z represents the perceived choice? Is that correct?

So the determinist argument is that because these things constitute the decision making process one cannot make a choice independent of one’s experience with the world, thus free will is an illusion?

So, theoretically, if an omniscient being existed, he would be subject to the same chain of causality… meaning, a god like creature could not be act freely. Is my understanding accurate?

I truly appreciate the information and I hope you don’t mind discussing something you already know…

Pretty much, yes.

Yes. It’s all about external (and biological) influences.

Such a ‘being’ has existed soley in the domain of fantasy, and as such his abbilities (and lack of) would be defined by the author of said ‘being’
But to humor you…
As there has been no recorded cases of such beings existing, what they could or could not do is unknown and untestable.

HELLO F(R)IEND(S)

Hmmm… Do you reject the notion that free will is a biblical concept?

I think the idea of freewill would exist in the absense of abrahamic religion, but recognise the heavy reliance on that concept to make their faith ‘work’
But the way I see it, freewill doesn’t even work within the confines of christian thought.
If god knows everything(past, present and future), that means destiny is already written. An omnicient god could only exist in a deterministic universe, and I just can’t see any way around it.
God or no god, freewill doesn’t make sense.

Dr. Satanical wrote:

Would you make the charge that the notion of free will in the Abrahamic traditions was brought forth for function or that it serves a functionary purpose by default. Intent of this notion in the religions is my question.

Dr. Satanical wrote:

Just because God is not bound to the present as we are does not mean that he is pulling our puppet strings. I would rather find no breach of our free will whether God knows or does not know the past, present, and future. Just because in God’s knowledge, we have already done everything we have already done, been born, have lived, and died, and everything we did God knows, I ask you to identify what the ontological change is from free will to none in this light.