it’s a nice ideal… it’s just slightly flawed from the devil’s advocate POV.
#1 - the ideal christian viewpoint is that you already know everything you need to know about the universe. Thus there is no need for further knowledge.
#2 - the secularist push for knowledge has lead to some great advances in the past century like the computer you are using to access the internet and type this message.
#3 no-knowledge = wisdom about what? wisdom is comprehending what you know. if you know nothing how can you wise about anything? it’s like the full cup proverb… the alternative is that the wise man on the hill presents you with an empty cup of knowledge… how is that useful?
#4 let’s say you are able to remove all knowledge and become “wise”. The point of knowledge is the question… if you don’t know the question the answer is meaningless.
There is knowledge which is knowledge of mechanics and there is great knowledge which is knowledge of being or presence. They are different. The problem comes when mechanical knowledge begins to be substituted for conscius self knowledge. For a “man” they are in balance. The trouble is that there are too few men from lack of great knowledge.
An enlightened man does not need knowledge. He has knowledge of all things - wisdom. An ordinary man needs knowledge but he needs to learn about ‘right’ knowledge in order to gain wisdom. A wise man becomes so because he applies his knowledge to his life - the art of living. Knowledge without application is like an idea that is never implemented. Useless.
This emptying out the mind, this meditation…it is confusing. It is not about not gaining knowledge and walking around with a mind devoid of thoughts. The very nature of the mind is to think, now to try and get the mind not to think…good luck. It is about focussing the mind in truth, directing the mind to right knowledge. When the mind is focussed in truth then whatever action is appropriate for the circumstance, wisdom is drawn upon. Right action comes from right knowledge. There is no difference between an enlightened man and an ordinary man - the only difference is that the enlightened man has no knowledge.
It’s so difficult to talk about no-knowledge. It’s as if we have to ‘give up’ something. Well, we do, but it is not the knowledge itself, but how we understand that knowledge. Knowing as a tool, not a collection of bricks to fashion our own prison walls. Precepts (knowing) govern percepts (seeing). To see first (percepts), then apply ‘appropriate’ knowing (precepts). That’s the trick. The mind seduces itself and takes the lead, when it should simply follow. Mind over matter? Who’s in charge here?
I think it is the empty cup as against the overflowing one.
It isn’t that we have no knowledge, but that we are prepared to empty our cup to get some fresh tea. The same old tea gets bitter after a while and leaves a stain on the cup. Empty the cup, wipe it clean and let it be filled again - it’s much more refreshing.
The problem may be more with the cup than with the tea.
Knowledge is one thing and in what way it is received is another. I agree with JT in his concern for precepts but getting beyond precepts may require giving up on the old cup rather than just trying to clean it of what we find undesirable.
I would point out that in emptying the cup, it is then transformed even before there is new (new way of seeing?) tea. You and Nick are both right, and I’m desparately trying to not use metaphor.
This metaphor feels somehow incomplete. There is an art to making tea, we can’t just throw in any old teabag - we need to search for high mountain tea and learn how to perform the tea ceremony. The tea ceremony is the key to realising the essential in tea drinking. The essential is not in the cup or in the tea but in the experience of the drinking of the tea.
There is no cup and there is no tea. Focussing on the cup or the tea is like indulging in the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We are required not to partake of the fruits of the tree in order to transcend the realm of duality into the realm of the absolute. (It is not that knowledge of good an evil are neccessarily ‘bad’ - but that knowledge of good and evil make it difficult for the spiritual cultivator to detatch from the dualistic realm - it depends on our intentions and purpose) Knowledge is the cup and the tea while no-knowledge is beyond knowledge.
Have you experienced drinking tea other than the usual? How would you describe the difference between drinking tea and the experience of drinking tea?
Animals including Man react in accordance with duality without any knowledge of it. Is it possible that knowledge of good and evil that does not become corrupt is precisely what is necessary in order to detach from the dualistic realm of organic life of which we are a part? Without such knowledge we just continue reacting within its limitations.
This seems to be the problem. The soul wishes to be born and live while the intellect takes its place exaggerating its self importance and thereby depriving the potential soul of its life. The problem isn’t knowledge but the emotional level associated with it. Facts are facts. Our emotions determine their personal value. A dollar is a dollar. How you emotionally value it is something else and can be rationalized and expressed via the intellect.
Could a man withn a soul change a tire? Sure, the mechanical knowledge of how to change a tire has nothing to do with the life of the soul.
However, if the tire goes flat and you throw a tantrum cursing the gods for inflicting such an indignity on a spiritual being like yourself and become an emotional wreck filled with fear and insecurity, this of course starves out all life. The problem here isn’t knowledge, it is negative emotional reaction.
Sweetpea, how did you come to ask me this question from what I said?
I was concerned that my metaphor would be confusing. I said that we need ‘right’ knowledge and practice in order to penetrate beyond knowing.
I think I’ve unnesessarily complicated matters. Perhaps we should return to your and Bob’s metaphors. I think perhaps that my experience of drinking tea is somewhat unusual but I am too shallow to completely grasp and express it, and I don’t have the language skills, so we’ll say that my experience is no different from anyone else’s.
Ignorance.
Nick, is there really something different here from what I have said earlier?
Because I have found the distinction meaningful and I wondered if you had also. I’ve experimented with this during eating but not drinking tea. Normally we just habitually eat without any conscious awareness that we are eating. The “experience” of eating is the conscious awareness of eating. It adds an additional experiential dimension to the taking in of food along with a higher quality of nutrition. So for me, there is a difference between drinking tea and the conscious experience of drinking tea.
I must have misunderstood. I read you to say:
This “not to partake” means to me that eating the fruit denies the direction of the Absolute. As I’ve come to understand it, it is knowledge of objective good and evil that allows one to benefit from the tree of life and the “way” back towards the Absolute. At one time it was necessary “not to partake”, but conditions changed and now we must partake with an impartiality our corrupt ego is incapable of. The conscious intent must be there to do so or else there can be no discrimination between the real and unreal leaving one to turn in circles.
Your focusing too much on the tea, and not what the tea represents.
such a tantrum would be purely anti-soul.
yes knowledge is important to get through life… the point isn’t forgetting what you know, the point is not letting what you know getting in the way of what you need to know.
The point of washing the cup, is to allow a clean surface for the new knowledge to take root. while the dirty cup was stained with old knowledge the clean cup will not have such preconcieved notions. You’ll be able to absorb the new knowledge and then later on, meld that with the old knowledge or throw away the old for the new if the new is better than the old.
that’s why just emptying out the tea isn’t enough, even after emptying your mind to allow for absorption, your mind still has the traces of what was there. the notions of how things should be.
of course not.
the cup is your ability to absorb, and when you drink the tea you fully absorb the knowledge. The cup retains the stain of the tea, and (this draws on the proverb from jesus) the preconcieved notions of the previous “tea”(wine).
if you want to learn something without predjudice you must first throw out what you know. (without of course forgetting what you know.)
Nick, this doesn’t mean throwing out “EVERYTHING” that you know,
don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water.
Thanks for that Skythe, wasn’t quite sure how I was going to express myself. I love them and hate them. Words that is. Think I’m the only person in the world that can’t articulate. Better to get busy doing - all this talking - does my head in.
Meditation means absolute attentiveness to the moment at hand. When walking it is truth walking, when eating it is truth that is eating, sleeping, speaking…I hear you Nick, being aware of eating - therefore you become aware about what you eat, drink whatever, aware of the effects it has on your body, aware of the effects on the environment - yes, I drink tea differently…
Knowledge helps us when we are being conscious. But it can also be our downfall. Awareness is better but awareness encompasses knowledge.
And also quite normal for a person without a soul suffering a blow to their self importance.
There is a difference between the knowledge necessary for interaction with external life and the growing internal life of the soul. Each can be gotten in the way of but how it happens is different.
If we are speaking of the human soul then washing the cup isn’t enough but a new wine bottle is necessary for new wine.
The reason is that the cup or the container in which this knowledge is kept is the corrupt ego which takes the place of the potential soul. This ego is created and sustained primarily through false pride and vanity. This opinion of ourselves takes the place of allowing what we are to live. What good is this knowledge if it falls on a clean corrupt ego. The patern repeats.
So the new knowledge that is of objective reality must fall into a new bottle, tea cup or whatever, that is not a creation of corrupt egotism.
In societal life though, it is fine to just keep cleaning the cup and allow the new knowledge to enter that supports our self image and its relationship with society.
If you really want to learn something without prejudice you first must learn to distinguish between the truth and a lie in yourself. This takes a lot of time, courage, and sincere effort. It is much easier to live with the prejudice of the day rationalizing a freedom from prejudice so few bother to go further.
There is no reason to throw out anything. The need is to “understand” it. If a person understands, they are not dominated by knowledge. If, as usual, a person lacks “understanding,” then they are dominated by this knowledge to the great joy and relief of their egotism that would otherwise perish in the face of reality.
well that’s basically what I said, someone approaching “soulfulness” or the quest for “knowledge”, the first step on that quest is to dump your self importance.
that can be true. But I think there are times when the knowledge comes from a source that needs to be viewed with a small slight opinion, a washed cup is what you want, and at times when you know the person is speaking non-knowing, you’ll want to leave the cup unwashed.
you don’t want to integrate every piece of knowledge and the only way to make sure you don’t is to integrate some knowledge with your “corrupt” ego.
is there even such knowledge available to any mortal? we are all tainted by our own deaths.
that’s what most people do, I on the other hand clean the cup then pour in a disparaging view to compare it to my own. I find other people’s viewpoints on life to usually be to bitter to stand, and have to dump it out before finishing the cup.
hence the reason not to throw out the cup every time you want to garnish new knowledge.
That I disagree with, on the way to the knowing, some contradictions will have to be dealt with, and you’ll have to realign your POV with a new way of thinking and throw out your old way of thinking.
ah but to understand something, we first must pass it through filters. The faithful filters are very porous and allow alot of things through. Like believing that a cracker is the embodiment of christ. or believing that mohamed talked to god in a cave. These are extraordinary events that should be passed through the same logical filters as everything else. If someone came up to you and stated “I know the secret to life, and have learned how to control objects with my mind.” You for sure would not allow that through your filter. You would ask for him to prove himself.
Should we take knowledge and immediately integrate it into understanding without fully realizing the implications of doing so?
The soul like the moon
is new and new again
and I have seen the ocean
continuously creating
and since I scoured my mind and body
I too am new
forever new
my teacher told me one thing
live in the soul
and when it was so
I began to go naked and dance.
Knowledge can serve two different purposes.It can serve the purpose of living the sleeping life or it can serve the purpose of awakening to a higher quality of life. Consider from Matthew 22:
The temptation is to mix these two qualities of knowledge. There is the perception of knowledge that belongs to the realm of Caesar which is the normal societal life based on inner corruption. Then there is the perception of knowledge that leads to awakening which begins with the conscious awareness of our personal inner corruption.
The knowledge is there. Our question is how to become open to it. How do we get out of our own way so that we can experience it?
This is fine for establishing our personal beliefs of right and wrong as we interact with the world. It is paying Caesar.
Understanding in the realm of Caesar requires these filters. The knowledge leading in the direction of God requires abandoning filters.
Normally in life we believe we are aware of this and that and respond in accordance with this awareness. This is the realm of Caesar. However, a person can become consciously aware of the reactions from their mechanical awareness. This knowledge requires abandoning filters. There is no filtering but the affirmation of the complete happening. We become conscious of our filtering. This awareness is quickly lost and we are back in out normal reactive mode of filtering.
The knowledge useful to life itself must be in the corrupt cup. It is all we are. There is no good in being gullible and naive. But just because one is not gullible doesn’t automatically mean they understand higher knowledge. Gradually, from a different quality of knowledge, the nature of life’s interaction can be moved to a more objective cup not limited by the results of this subjective filtering but built on the freedom to experience without filtering. Instead of arguing over right or wrong, what is the experience of being either right or wrong? The quality of such experiences is its own filter. Such experiences allow us to discriminate between what belongs to the earthly realm of Caesar and what belongs in the direction of God and where true humanity resides.
