Satanists are Fools

Ucc.,

Which is a small difference indeed

A difference that I mark.

‘Proposed’ is not ‘found’.

Just as freewill is proposed.

There are belief systems which we develop, and then there are beliefs that spring from the constitution unbidden.

How do you determine the difference? You, if the product of the former, would never be able to tell them apart.

Will trees be doing it next?

Don’t look now but trees might be operating in extremely complex ecosystems, a vast network of life more complex than any human brain…if humans have mind, so must many other things, I am not adverse to that. I am a pantheist and thus a panpsychist.

As far as your model can predict, the desire that makes us act is completely random.

This is very close to my suspicion. I actually do believe in freewill in the radical sense that it appears that the body-as-mind in ideational and causal fashion balances out possibilities which then reach a threshold and are randomly then found to be willed. Ostensibly it is a coin flip that happens behind the veiled moment when we “decide”, the moment even freewillers cannot experience or see. But a strictly determinist model works as well here, if that is more comforting to others. What seems the least probable is that the “I” operates in Lord of the Manor fashion, weighing reasons in his right an left hand, and then completely free from cause, self-determines a decision. Decisions that are experienced as such very often are proved to be caused by any number of explanations that go far beyond the knowledge of “decider”. Further, mitigating factors always intrude on the freewill description, factors that strike me as completely arbitrary in application: operating under mental illness, addiction, retardation, autism, emotional intensity, intoxication, not to mention unconscious motivation, all to some degree suspend the status of freewill. I suspect that just as these cases suspend freewill due to cultural attempts to explain and assess behavior, so too freewill is also an attempt to explain behavior, and as such, influences our personal experience of our very own actions. There is no freewill will experience that cannot later be susceptible to suspended explanation by way of other causes.

But as it seems you will not let go of your freewill view, I propose a compromise. Hold on to freewill, but accept that all that one can do is decide to place oneself in the hands of much larger forces than you. And in so doing, one becomes an expression of those forces.

Dunamis

Do we know this to be true? And if so, how? I ask because there are many models of the human mind, both scientific and philosophic but all are merely theoretical, so far as I know. And if I perceive this particular explanation to be accurate, what precisely is the “I” that is doing the perceiving?

I can see how denying the mind as I (and I would presume Ucc) think about it would be convenient for a determinist. Allowing for any model of the mind that might include randomness could open the door to the possibility of free will. But is there a known model that adequately explains cognition that could rightly be said to be more than theoretical?

Jerry,

But is there a known model that adequately explains cognition that could rightly be said to be more than theoretical?

One must ask what the theoretical is then. For me all is ‘the theoretical’, and the truth of the theoretical is determined by the real world effects that belief in the theoretical brings, under the interpretation that produced them. It seems to me to be more meaningful to see the world as a progression of versions of reality, each of which bring about their own consequences. Each age imagines that it sees the world clearly and I see no reason to imagine that ours is any different than any other, to be proven ‘wrong’ when a more powerful way of seeing the world comes along. At this point in philosophy and history it makes good sense to attribute to language and culture many of the distinguishing characteristics that for instance mark out the mind as the mind. Dennett’s study of consciousness tends in this direction. These are new metaphors for thinking, which in my book are more dynamic, less archaic than the metaphors of the past, metaphors which matched the social-political relationships that gave rise to them. I view history as the unfolding of spirit, in which the metaphor plays a central role, because of the importance of language to the human species. But in the end it is all theoretical. I only ask, what are the real consequences of believing model “x” and not “y”.

Dunamis

Fair enough. I have no problem with the theoretical as long as we understand the limitations. And truthfully my mind is not made up on the matter of determinism versus free will. This is slightly troubling to me, however:

But in a robotic, puppet-like way, yes? The thing that’s bothersome, in thinking determinism through, is the removal of the independent creative spirit that is thought of as being uniquely one’s own, where we cease to be partners in God’s creation (which is what I like to think) and instead become programmed instruments.

Not saying you’re wrong. Just saying I like my way more.

Jerry,

“The thing that’s bothersome, in thinking determinism through, is the removal of the independent creative spirit that is thought of as being uniquely one’s own”

What determinism does is it makes one the unique and creative expression of spirit, only the creativity is not of one’s own - you do not own it - but of the larger process in which one participates. I have no doubt that we experience the will as free, but we also experience the sun to rise.

Dunamis

Does the “process in which one participates” imply a teleological universe? And would you say that somebody’s (ostensible) decision to, I don’t know, say, fly an airplane into a skyscraper, is really a “unique and creative expression of spirit”? A determinist who is an atheist (and aren’t most of them?) has no such problem. Your position seems unique to me. How does a Spinozan (how does any deterministic pantheist) deal with the problem of evil?

Jerry,

“Does the “process in which one participates” imply a teleological universe?”

It is not teleological in that it does not operate with a specific end in mind, but it is utterly connected and in relation to itself.

How does a Spinozan (how does any deterministic pantheist) deal with the problem of evil?

Evil is a matter of perspective. That which diminishes the power of “you” to persist is evil, when you realize that our knowledge both of that power, and the definition of what is “you” fluctuates, you realize that the definition of evil also fluctuates, but fluctuates within the order of the world. Keep in mind, the flying of airplanes into skyscrapers was celebrated around the world as a great, and in fact by some, a religious act, despite the perspective of the West.

Dunamis

Hence, Satanists are not necessarily fools. We experience them as fools, but we experience the sun to rise.

isn’t it interesting how every idea on philosophy turns out to an argument between free will and determinism.

My mind was made up when i thought about consequences.
If you drop a hammer and hit someone’s foot are you responsible for the damage?
Answer: no

If you really think about it, you can list many forces acting on the hammer, both when it is in your hand and in the air. you won’t be in control of any of them so you aren’t responsible for anything you do.

I think it’s the ebb and flow of ILP. A few weeks back the ebb was politics, now it’s determinist logic (or lack there-of.) next it will be back to “peace, an option?” I’ve also noticed an ebb of drugs coming back in.

You can’t be serious. If you throw your fist and someone happens to be in the way it’s their fault they were in the way?

nice 12 year old mentality there.

Define free will gobbo and syc

Mat.,

Define free will…

Solipsistic convergence upon vectors of Ignorance.

Dunamis

DIE YOU SON OF A BITCH THREAD! DIE DIE DIE!! Seriously… this thread is old. PoR is gone (or he hasn’t said anything I read in a while). Please!

I agree. this thread shows, that satanists are foolish.

I really think you and PoS would get along greatly. Though I would say I would have to choose PoS over you. You seem rather idiotic in the sense of everything you do.

As demonstrated by lasko.Aw its a shame we dont all agree with the satanists. Aw poor them

As I said before, have you not anything yo say that can in any way… and I mean in any way contribute to a conversation? Or must you always agree with other people? I agree with … come up with your own belief and make clear what you believe instea dof taking other peples stand points you fuck hole

What a rude ill tempered chap. My word. Quite remarkable. LOL

haha wow… I’m done with you on this conversation… you’ve already proved my point :smiley:

Thats right lasko, go on, beat it with your base, vile behaviour.