Mohammed, Islam & Questions

Scythekain:

Not so. Some Muslims may feel this way, or even teach it. But Islam does not offer a ranking of the Prophets like Rick Dees’ top 40. If you found some ranking chart in the Qur’an, let me know…

Well, I am not certain about the timeline, but if I am correct, Persians and Christians were fighting over this region circa 600 C.E. (I believe the Persians had conquered much of the area). Wasn’t one of the major conflicts in those times between Muslims and Persians too? Basically, there was war and I believe the Arabs had to defeat a superior army to regain its land. The premise is that some war inspired Mohammed to create his religion to unite the peopole.

You could be right, it could have been the Persians (Iranians) that posed a threat. In either case, the people needed to have hope because there were wars in those times.

No, the paragraph did not assume literacy. Mohammed was an intelligent man and literacy is not a prerequisite to intelligence. Illiteracy is irrelevant because it was common practice of Christians to preach the gospels on the streets EVERYWHERE they went. Christians traveled far and wide. Since Christianity also taught the Torah, you can understand where he could have received his idea to create a new religion. The same applies to Jesus and to Moses–they saw an opportunity and took it.

Wasn’t Mecca taken after Mohammed began religion? Mohammed didn’t need to go to them, they would go near him–enough to receive precisely what he wanted to hear. His merchant travels would have exposed him to various religions and various beliefs–if not necessarily in detail with sufficient information to help him begin the premise of a new religion. I am not saying that Mohammed did not believe his new religion was from god only that it may have been wishful thinking. Again, literacy has very little to do with it.

Irrelevant. The Christians suffered similar persecution. The Christians based their religion on various different religions too, like the Greek and Egyptian gods. Borrowing from a religion does not mean you have to be an expert on it–you only need to like its premise. The Middle East was exposed to Christianity in very clear ways–look at the interactions between the the Byzantine empire and the Persian empire… That’s a very wide geographic area. However, I did allude to the fact taht people learned that thousands nearby followed the god of Abraham and thus Islam was not some new radical idea–it was to Judaism what Christianity originally was.

Basically, we have to accept the premise that Mohammed was a prophet first before we can accept that his revelation in the form of the Qur’an is accurate. So, if we accept Mohammed’s version we must accept that the previous instances of the Torah were incorrect. That is, that the scribes, who paid so much attention to detail screwed up or that the priests flat out lied–which really endangers all the Abrahamic religions.

Except for the various instances of god as man… coincidence?

Which begs the question, how come Jesus’ teachings were butchered and not Muhammed’s? Divine intervention? Basically, we are forced to accept that another religion got it wrong and finally we have it right.

The problem is that Mohammed saw the flaws of Christianity and saw the corruption taking place within Christianity. He would not free his people and lead them into a righteous relationship with god; instead, he would lead them to sin and apostacy. No, Mohammed needed to establish his own religion, much the way Jesus needed to establish his own.

My history is a bit rusty, but my understanding is that the Arabs were under Christian or Persian rule circa 600 C.E.

Which is normal of men to do–to want to change the bad. I think that Mohammed must have believed in Allah and thought that he was doing this according to the will of god.

Not my recollection of history… but I could be wrong.

Thanks so much for your detailed response. It is most welcome. I will have to begin studying Islam in detail along with historically relevant information. I think this will take a few years.

Its not that the former got it wrong, but that it was altered, some things out, some things added e.g. the institution of Priesthood (correct me if Im wrong). Islam purports to be perceived more as a restoration, than a new religion. Of course, this will take us back to the initial question and a circular debate has begun.

But I really gotta get to my finals. So I must leave the rest of the rebuttals for later, I know I said this before, but I gotta do it this time…its crunch time. I’m taking 23 units, 2 of which are grad. level classes. So thirst, I hereby appoint you the defender of Islam til after my finals are over, since there is no one else here to do it. Since I know you have not necessarily researched Islam, etc. in a substantial way, just identify everyone’s mistakes in logic and put out the fires for now. Until I return, peace from AVICENNA

“Muhammad had gown up in the pagan society of Mecca. One of his sons, Abd Manaf, bore a pagan name. Mecca was a holy place famed for the Kaaba, the earthly abode of many gods. [. . .] Moreover, the ideas and teaching of Judaism and Christianity had spread and become known in Mecca through, slaves, pilgrims, and traders […] Muhammad and Islam in 615 entered a new period […] Monotheism was plainly recognized, the opposition and persecution began [emphasis mine]. Muslims were subjected to tongue-lashing […] garbage waas dumped on their doors […]individuals were beaten.” (Fisher and Ochsenwald 28-29)

This history texts denotes that it was the pagans who persecuted Islam and probably Christians and Jews.

Yes, I tend to agree with your thesis.

I have to disagree with this, as most of the Christians and Jews were slaves or pilgrims or traders without much power. They were acknowledged, but most of the Arab tribes were pagan. Hey, many historians, and generally all “expert” academics often have divergent conclusions. We can agree to disagree.

Yes, I agree, but he did turn nasty when the Jews ridiculed him for reciting the Torah out of context and added verses. At first Muslims prayed to Jerusalem, then switched to where the Kaaba is because of this ridicule

No, the first converts were his kit and kin and most were young men of not great social standing. They felt inferior to those whose wealth, and influence put them at the top of the food chain. Islam brought the new ideas of individualism which threatened the wealthier members of society.

There were not that many converts to begin with. About 305 of them went up against 800 - 900 Meccans and won.

I tend to agree with picking, choosing and also believe he created new rules to benefit his people, especially the one regarding alcohol.

Somewhat, but generally on track.

Always remember not only did Mohammed claims that both Gabriel and Satan spoke to him.

No, it is not unfair, and the Mormoms added verses too.

I believe that Muslims will say “Yes.” Please correct me if mistaken.

I believe so, but some academic scholars found some interesting evidence regarding the Qur’an:

wsfi.net/Documents/WHAT%20IS … LESTER.HTM

This was found in a edu site and I found it interesting, you might too.

Many Christians and Jews have challenged it. A few academic Muslim’s, not theologians have challenged it. I believe there is an progressive Islamic media source that does so, I will review the MEMRI articles for reference.

I will have to research. I know many claim the victory at Mecca is a miracle, but this claim is made by the Israelis regarding the 1948 battle that they won against the Arab world.

Actually, there are many nasty comments in Islamic religious texts describing Jews as swine and apes. Much of the Kosher diet resembles Islamic diet. Also, Jews do not pray five times a day.

I believe so.

Yes, this and much more. Ditto for the Christians.

I believe I am on topic. Also, thanks for saving me the time researching the violence in the Bible, this includes the Torah.

I will start a new thread regarding Islamic laws. I do become nasty when others tell me what to do or think.

[quote=“thirst4metal”]
HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)

Who claimed that any one was greater than any of the others?

Thirst, you made the Mormon analogy. Scythekain is on topic.

BTW: Scythekain: Scythia is an ancient region of Asia. and Scythian is a member of the ancient nomadic people there. It is also an extince Iranian language. Any connection?

The the Sharia laws, I do not think so. Many Muslims are trying to legalize these laws in their Western communitys.

I don’t think your numbers are right…

first the numbers:

Firstly it should be noted that Arab includes parts of Africa and Asia, and that china on of the largest parts of Asia is the smallest part of Islam.

(I should’ve also made it clear that I think African Islam nations are corrupt, and dangerous.)

a map to ponder:

islamicweb.com/begin/muslim_distribution.jpg

and something else to think about, the muslim population as of 2000 was 1.1 billion… and it’s growing at an insane rate…

and as aspacia correctly pointed out:

Many European countries that are facing rising Muslim majorities are running into this. if you think the christians rising in power in America is bad, wait until you see what the muslims do over the next 10 -15 years.

because unfortunately we don’t preach logic and reason like we do god, the illogical and unreason of Islam (and other religions that it will be replacing) rule the current political state.

think about it… the population is currently 1/6th of the world, and that 1/6th of the world has some of the worst human rights violations (outside of communist china - but that’s a whole other topic.).

Do you think this is a coincidence?

let’s look at the world map again and some of the headlines:

Mr. Abass is a christian convert the government is jailing because he is a convert.

I could go down the list of the countries on that list, but really what’s the point?

thanks for clearing that up.

Right, the difference is the muslims are still doing it.

believe me I remember

I think that the world isn’t black and white though.

while it was wrong for the papacy to condemn condoms calling them “uneffective” at preventing AIDS, is it equal to the egyptian government jailing a man for being christian?

I don’t know… I think the latter is a worse shade of gray. though honestly it could go the other way… condemning millions of Africans to the AIDS virus is pretty despicable in and of itself.

maybe the condom example wasn’t the best comparison for Wrong = wrong? LOL.

lol, that reminds me of when I was four and I asked my religious parents “why is the sky blue”

“because god made it blue, son”

even then I didn’t accept that answer. And I know you won’t, and that’s what your going to get from anyone who believes in any concept of god.

Why are we here? What is our purpose?

chalk it all up to god. If you want to believe that fine, but I know you don’t.

I’d be curious too, though I have a feeling I already answered it above.

from using the non-scientific pond of ILP most of the reasons people believe in god are grounded in pure speculation.

There usually is no logic nor reason, are you ready to accept that?

I’ve got no problem with that, I think you are a brilliant poster and love debating with you.

I just sometimes dislike how “colorful” your posts can get

I’ll try to do that.

Here is a Rutgers University Religious Department link for your search regarding faith. Faith is very comforting for the faithful and many studies show that many of the faithful are happier than cynics. I don’t know, I enjoy my life of curiousity.
virtualreligion.net/vri/

You are correct, think, listen, then come to your own conclusions and do not let others tell you what to think or do. This one of my pet peeves. Who died and made anyone God to tell me what I should or should not do or think. Albeit, I do follow the laws of land, that my society has implemented, but I can always choose to leave if I dislike the laws.

Have fun.

Hey thirst, you may be interested in Irshad Manj’s The Trouble With Islam. I just picked it up and it is facinating. Her web page is muslim-refusnik.com

Thirst, I almost forgot, Rushdie’s The Satanic Verses is hilarious, very close to Monty Python’s Holy Grail. I just read the first two chapters and do not understand what the big stink is about.

Scythekain:

Some while ago she/he had put the same statement on this board. I refuted it.

Funny that scythekain is still lying about this issue. Why do you make it so easy to expose your lying character?

Anyway, here is a true core lesson in Islaam (again):

Say (O Muslims), “We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ’il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya’qûb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya’qûb (Jacob)], and that which has been given to Mûsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm).” (Al-Baqarah 2:136)

ok hadj, they’re equal by that statement. Just a couple of questions.

Do all sects of Islam feel the same?

If you feel that Christ was equal to Mohammed why don’t you value the New Testament as much as the Qu’ran?

If you answered that the Qu’ran is more important, tell me how you can feel that way about Mohammed’s work yet still feel that Mohammed and Christ were equals?

My assertation that the Islam stance of equality is not rooted in any logical assertations because of their other feelings on christianity.

feel free to answer my questions though, please hadj.

There is something typical about you, scythekain. It is rare to see you ask questions and if you do, you ask many questions at the same time.

I am familiar with this [ugly and chaostic] form of debating. Trying ‘not to lose’ the debate, I must answer them all. As experience has learned us, you reply by reacting on every given answer. At that point the ‘quote’ function becomes a natural standard.

I friendly advice you, scythekain, next time to formulate only one strong question each time. If an issue has been ‘solved’, or something near that, pose your next strong question. A friendly advice.

I will try my utmost best to answer all questions, which you have posed to me. However, trying to avoid a situation like I described, I will not further answer questions. Because I believe there are a lot of good Islâmic websites which have great resources, even for those who are unfamiliar with this beautiful religion. I advice you to visit salaf.dk : a portal of excellent Islâmic resources in many languages.

Probaly not. Some think that Ali, the grandson of Muhammed (peace be upon him), is much greater [some Shia’s]. Some even dare to say there has come another prophet [Nation of Islam(?), Ahmadiyya].

However what is more important are the true teachings of Islâm, as stated in the Quraan, in the Hadith and the interpretation of the three generations after Muhammed’s death.

In fact, if you knew the basics of Islâm, you would have know that believing in all Books is obligatory. May come as a surprise for some. But let us take a Quranic verse:

And He (Allâh) will teach him ['Iesa (jesus)] the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunnah, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.), (and) the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). (Aali Imran 3:48)

Secondly, while quoting a non-Islâmic source, Wikipedia.org:

There are six basic beliefs shared by all Muslims:

1. Belief in God, the one and only one worthy of all worship.
2. Belief in all the Prophets and Messengers (sent by God).
3. Belief in the Books sent by God.
4. Belief in the Angels.
5. Belief in the Day of Judgment (Qiyamah) and in the Resurrection.
6. Belief in Destiny (Fate) (Qadaa and Qadar in Arabic).

However, it has been confirmed, and not only Muslims take this stance of view, that all previous books have been corrupted. And this is what most Muslims believe. So we do not believe the bible in your local church is the actual Bible.

All scholars agree that all good of the previous Books, can be found in the Last Book, the Qurân. And if my memory is right this is stated in the Qurân itself.

everyone does that. Look at T4M, he posed several questions in the starting thread. This is how debate works. You ask a line of questions and then the other person answers those questions the questioner responds (where appropriate) then starts a new line of questioning. it has nothing to do with winning or losing the debate.

I’m not going to change the way I debate to make it easier. If I asked one question at a time it would break up the line of questions that are related and break their relevancy which is important. It would also make an already long thread needlessly longer.

ok then in some sense my statement wasn’t completely incorrect was it?

which much like the bible can be interpreted 9 ways to sunday. You can state “you’re taking it out of context” but, even that is open to interpretation.

so how often have you read the new testament vs the quran? Do you in your mind hold the value of each of these books equally?

interesting. Have you compared this to other beliefs? Like the christians, jews, mormons, and local pagan arabs?

mm hmm, this is the answer I was waiting for.

The discovery of the dead sea scrolls (and other similiar scrolls) have validated modern translations including the antiquated King James version of the “holy bible”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_sea_scrolls

In fact most modern translation go back to the VERY oldest texts to and compare all the texts and use the most of the disparaging words are not in the context but in the semantics of action. Basically the words between the words. The context is still there.

Knowing that the bible is not a flawed translation, does that change your view of the Qu’ran?

(or of the bible for that matter)

you forgot something in that statement.

All ^ISLAM^ scholars agree…

Secular scholars will probably look at all books with a skeptical (and IMO a correct) approach.

Christians will view the collection made by the catholics the best.

JW’s have a similiar view to you that the bible is flawed and released their own translation which on context doesn’t match the original texts.

Mormon’s also believe the bible translations are flawed and Joe smith made his own flawed translation that doesn’t match the context of the original texts as well as writing his own text down of the nephites and lamanites.

My point is your painting with a broad brush from your perspective. The scholars you care about view the Qu’ran in the best light.

for closing I thought about placing a contradiction from the “holy books”

the bible:

“Heb.11:17
“By faith Abraham when he was tried, offered up Isaac, … his only begotten son.””

“Gen.16:15
“And Hagar bare Abraham a son: and Abram called his son’s name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.””

the Qu’ran

gen 11:25 And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters. Nahor lived 148 years.
11:26 And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

The Cattle 6:74
“(Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods ? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest.”

and a contradiction within the work:

what was man created from?

skepticsannotatedbible.com/q … a/man.html

(4 possibilities)

the book of mormon:

2 Nephi 5:15
And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

2 Nephi 5:16
And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land…

Hadj, I’m a skeptic. I see all religions in the same light.

Hadj:
Would you like the verses that deny this statement? I have them. Also, in Islamic countries they do discriminate against Jew and Christians, and totally reject any other faith. In Saudi Arabia they shred the Bible in their airports.

If you have the courage I challenge you to read The Trouble With Islam. It is written by a woman raised in the Islamic faith, but moved to the secular west. She developed serious doubts regarding Islam and how it is practiced. She details much of Islamic history, the good, the bad, and the ugly. She discusses her fears regarding dogs, especially black dogs steming from Islamic teachings. There is nothing regarding how bad dogs are in the Qur’an. There is much much more.

This is aspacia’s challenge to all Muslims.

Ah, vacation is over and I am back to work. I know many will give a big sigh of relief and Mr. AD will probably stand-up in cheer.

Also, any nonMuslims will find this book interesting.

Actually, this occured around 1050. Liberal thinkers in Islam were tortured or murdered during this time by fundamentalists. Muslims have been oppressing each other and others for centuries.

They need time to evolve into secularism like so many other faiths.

I actually agree with you. They were traders, slaves and a few pilgrims.

He did have contact and did hear their religious discussions, this is also proven. How often, or how much is not known.

Agreed, whether he is a false Prophet or real, unless he really pulled one on us.
[/quote]

As did many other religious prophets.

The Meccans were pagan and did persecute Muslims, similarly, the Romans persecuted Christians and Jews.

You are way off in that the Qur’an differs from the Torah big time. Read it and compare it to the Torah. The base is there, Adam, Eve, Creation, but it is not in chronological order and adds much regarding cranes, the moon, etc.

Sure there was, to create new faith in which he would control and dictate.

Hum, what is the law, half the booty goes to Mohammed.

You asked for it, but at the moment I am back at work. Here is the quick and dirty, he marries a very rich woman, granted she asked, Robert E. Lee did the same thing. He becomes prominent, but not promonent enough to his liking. Smark cookie thinks, has heard Christians and Jews discussing their faiths and he likes the balance more than the pagan chaos going on around him. Hum, how can I bring more stability to my world my life???Hum, I will create a new faith, a faith which I will dominate, and change the rules to please me and increast my following, booty and all those nice slave women to satisty my libido.

Reveletion, I will become a prophet.

Yes they did. Also, they helped in the overthrow of Spain.

He enslaved many, and had numerous concubines. Justice was second class citizenship for Jews.

Typical hypocrisy and greed. This practice became extinct in Judaism.

I really hate dictumes, “Must”

And demanded fealty, conversion or else second class citizenship or death.

[quote[Well, this is a claim that has an anchored assumption. All I would do is offer a new starting premise.[/quote]

Ah, like the Crusaders.

There you go again with the “musts”

Much of what you claim is in The Trouble With Islam

And many resemble Mormonism, polygamy, no alcohol, new revelations. this is not a long shot.

Ditto Mormonism.

Oh, Please, stop with the “must” and “shoulds.”

And occured in Christianity, Judaism, probably in many other faiths as well.

No, it still continues in Islam and very little punishment is exacted in Islamic countries.

And a woman has to provide three eye witnesses against a rapist. How often does a rapist rape with witnesses around?

Yes, in its heyday, the Islamic world provided more protections to women than the Christian Medieval Times.

I don’t know, Mormonism is growing very fast as well. Just because something is popular, the old lets jump on the bandwagon, does not make it right.

But in most of the current Islamic world, debate is usually met with fatwas and the name apostate.

Again, stop with the “musts,” “shoulds,” and “nots.” This alienate many educated individuals.

I challenge you to read The Trouble With Islam, have you the courage?

Also, I have asked two questions posted on two Islamic web sites, NO RESPONSE. In contrast I have asked similar questions on Jewish, Christian, Buddhist boards and have had several responses.

Why the secrecy???

I think a worldwide flood is ludicrous, there were probably many LARGE floods as the ice age drew to a close, and the one they think the bible flood is from is the story of the flood of gilgamesh.

They’ve also found proof of a massive black sea flood, basically there was a massive rock damn blocking out the mediterenean from the black sea. It was about 200 ft lower than it’s modern level and they’ve found ruins on a plateau under the water.

The other place that experienced a massive flood that disproves the worldwide flood is the northwest united states. There was a massive ice damn in minnesota (lake missoula).

inthegorge.com/ice_age_floods.html

“At its greatest extent, Glacial Lake Missoula stretched eastward a distance of some 200 miles, essentially creating an inland sea.”

I’m sure there were other events that happened like this that were written into the cultural memory of every culture.

Hey, Skyth, you are entitled to your opinion, but do your have any valid scientific links to help enlighten me. I am an English/history person and my recent link to science stems from the National Geographic.

I am really asking.

Yes, I have read reading this, but the sediments found regarding the world wide flood stem from similar sediments found in a particular layer of earth, like the Morrison layer differs from other fossil find layers. I am unclear as I am not a geographer or geologist.

Can you provide a link, I really do not know and am asking.

inthegorge.com/ice_age_floods.html

Okay, I will take a look, but does it disprove the worlwide flood? I will peruse this tomorrow. I am drawing from a geography fieldtrip class I took into Arizona, Utah, Colorado, and what the professor said. No, he was not religious at all.

Ah, yes, but I am talking about a significant layer in the earth’s sediment.

Thanks for the link, I will read it tomorrow.

Smiles,

aspacia
a

think about it this way… remember that the world used to be pangea… the land mass grew, oceans turned into deserts, deserts turned into oceans. There’s no doubt that the earth has been ravaged by water and the oceans have at one time or another covered large portions of it.

The problem is the oceans covering ALL of it. There’s simply not enough water. Not to mention the impossibility of every species on the planet now fitting on the cramped ark. with food and litter taken into account? impossible.

Great point. I believe that Noah probably existed, but the man is the small kernal of truth in the legend. Similar to Hercules, Sampson, etc. Most legends have a small bit of fact to them.

I will have to research more regarding what the prof. told me as this is outside my discipline.