Islamic laws. Clear explainations are needed.

Haste? You’ve hung around ILP jumping anyone’s shit who won’t roll over and accept your view of Islam. Do yourself a favor- search for “all posts by (yourself)” and see how many are attacking someone over your preceptions of their “ignorance” of Islam. Interesting, huh?

Yes, the Koran (free free to jump my shit, too, if that’s not the preferred spelling) is widely misunderstood in the West, but that can’t be too much of a shocker since it seems just as widely misunderstood in the Middle East. Tell me, how can you view a religion as set down in a book as completely separate from its actual practice? The errs you lambaste other for here seem to be widely embraced my many practicing Muslims as well. You not only frequently criticize these supposed “misunderstandings” by claiming a “bad translation,” you usually go on to cast aspersions on the poster, all but flat stating they did so on purpose.

Calling someone a ‘retard’ isn’t likely to change their view, nor does it enhance your credibility. Normally I don’t really give a fuck, as I think Muslims are deluded, although to be fair they’re no more so than Christians. But you seem to be piling on the ad hominium attacks pretty high lately, enough so that it’s caught my attention.

Not that anyone gives a shit, but what the fuck does it matter what the actual texts say? Plenty of radicals have twisted Islam and Christianity to suit their purposes. If the Qu’ran espouses peace, yet the followers of Islam interpret it differently to justify Jihad (not that all do) then is Islam really peaceful? A religion isn’t a book, it’s the actions of its followers.

You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about Islam, and I don’t doubt your sincerity, but you have to understand that if I was sitting down with Bin Laden he’d probably sound pretty knowledgeable, too.

Do you see my difficulties?

I actually expressed my personal feelings to thirst4metal in confidence recently, but I will share them now with you. I am really not in the position to defend Islam. I hope this conveys my standard for which we must investigate and consider the religion. I admit that I’ve had Islamic training since childhood and taken advance courses, etc. but these issues are really best answered by scholars.

My view…hmm. I see what you’re saying, but isn’t it true that in religion, no matter what your opinion, all agree that there is only one real view. In other words, religions like Islam are absolute in nature. It would be natural to then defend the view you feel is authentic. I’ve simply contended that Islam espouses peace, tolerance, etc. This is true, that ayah’s are there. Opponents, instead of saying that it espouses only intolerance, are better off arguing that it does both (not that I agree). But I see what you’re saying. At this point, I just ask people to treat investigation of Islam like any other philosophy, with patience, and an approach that actually involves learning, not concluding outright at prima facie quotes.

Yes, I have a point of view. So, yes, I express it against contrary views. That’s what we do here. What I’d like to get across here is that there are answers to these questions if one wishes to find them. But pasting some quotes free from context, guidance, not ascertaining translation source, hadith reliability rank, and so on and saying “see! see! Islam is so crazy!” is not what I deem scholarly research. I could do that with the Bible and Torah all day, (Jesus saying that he would destroy the temple in Jerusalem, or in the old testament Moses ordering a massacre upon finding his people worshipping the golden calf, etc.)… but I don’t, because I am aware enough to know I will need to take some real courses on the scriptures before jumping to conclusions. As for “attacking,” yes, I talk shit when I lose patience with charges that are a clear demonstration for a preceding will to bash Islam by cluttering up a thread with a huge paste from a website, rather than based on a will to learn, and then developing an opinion.

Truth spoken.

Theoretically, you have a point. Applied to Islam, I see the will to war, will to power, etc. preceding the manipulation of people by religion of any origin. As for how a people can commit the opposite of what a religion commands, consider the following phenomena as possibilities: human nature (the bad parts), pre cultures to introduction to the religion, socio-economic states and fluctuations, politicization, inflammation, war, poverty, illiteracy, manipulation, despair, hate, …the fact about our stage of infancy in our evolution process. We’re still animals (in the brut sense) for crying out loud.

Let’s be precise. I did so with one person, the author here. And I gave a detailed account as to why I think so in the Islamic Doctrine thread. If you wish to take this up, tell me where I charged unjustly. I was “mean” to one other: Alderian. I did NOT accuse him of any puposeful distortions, rather, after the first couple posts, we had a very pleasant and fruitful conversation.

Where did I call someone “retard?” Again, in the Rant House, I released some testosterone in post, talking shit to Alderian. But where did I call someone a retard? (I probably said something worse at some point) But I specifically went to the Rant House to do that, I felt the urge to let loose on someone while giving my thoughts. I found the Rant House appropriate to do so. It was nothing personal. I think guys in particular handle insults quite well, I’m used to basketball courts where we abuse eachother in words on the court and shake hands after. If I came off as personal, I apologize, and will point out that there was nothing personal. But will you omit Aspacia’s ugly words? I talk shit, but I don’t cross a certain line that Aspacia does and feels totally justified to. Cursing my mother, calling me filth and my religion filth, calling me a fanatic, equating me with terrorists who kill innocent children, etc. I think you better direct your discontent for word choice in another direction.

I direct you to my statements above. But again will say, nothing personal to anyone I might have offended (Alderian and Aspacia) I’m afraid I am accustomed to sincere efforts to learn, temperance, and respect, lack of simple mindedness, resistance to hasty conclusions, will to learn prior to will to slander. I am in the halls of philosophers 5 days per week and came to this site assuming (unconsciously) the same from those in the Department. I soon realized that many of the members here are not necessarily familiar with philosophy, have not studied it, and therefore lack to certain traits that come with the training. I regret losing my composure, but what’s with the chastisement? Was I that offensive and obscene? (Not a rhetorical question, I’d really like to know)

That is, if their actions truly correspond to the religion. If not, I strongly disagree. Example: if you take a look at pre Islamic Arabia, you will find that what you see today is similar in nature. The Mulsim world seems to have devolved into their old ways. Their culture never vanished we must understand, and that is what we see in Arab countries today, but now it’s via Islam. Over simplistic I’m sure, however, a point to consider in its scope of importance.

Indeed, I do. I will keep this thought in mind for the future, thanks for the sincere insights. Your post seems to be the first constructive one I’ve had in a long time.

Withdrawn. I see most of your most inflammatory posts were made in the context of heated exchanges with the more obnoxious and inflexible ILP members. To be honest, my eyes started to glaze over after a couple pages, anyway. I don’t want to take a quote out of context as that’s not fair to you at all. BTW, I wish everyone would use a friggin’ avatar- it’s hard to follow such verbose, long winded posts with nothing to break them up. It’s late and I simply cannot scroll thru any more endless arguements…

You bring up an interesting point: any religious text presumably means one thing and one thing only. Yet everyone is utterly convinced that their interpretation is the correct one. A good example can be found in Christianity. Catholics believe in purgatory (among other things) that other denominations reject. And all claim a scriptural basis for their view. Using the same logic you have used elsewhere, are 1 billion Catholics wrong?

I certainly realize the bulk of Muslims aren’t warmongers, but what of those sects who are? They seem equally convinced that their faith has called them to do the things the rest of the world considers barbaric. At the core of it, their Islam is violent, and the violence is couched in religious rhetoric. Are they wrong? Does it matter if they are? Ultimately the Koran will be debated from here til Doomsday, just as the KJV Bible has been.

Religion fascinates me, but more for its ability to serve as a window into the human mind than out of any transcendental truth in them. I consider them all fictions, only the ceremonies differ. All religious followers claim theirs is not only The True Faith, but one devoted to peace. But in practice, how often is this true? That’s no indictment of one vs another, just an observation of how theory seems to fail when the rubber meets the road.

most of what you decry of islam can also be found in the bible.

most of the reasons why you feel that islam is incompatible with Western secular society are also relevant to Christianity, and indeed to any religion which holds its teachings as the ultimate truth when these teachings do not correspond precisely with the legal spectrum of the society in which it exists.

The fact is that widespread Islam is a relative newcomer to the west. England (for example) has a long history of Christianity of first the state religion and then the main religion in a ‘secular’ society. Even now, although society is generally regarded as secular, its form has been shaped strongly by Christian values and outlook.

Therefore of course Islamic ideals do not ‘fit in’ as well as they do in Islamic societies which they themselves shaped. the other possibility is that the nature of culture in any society is what shapes the identity and bekiefs of any religion evolving therein… but that’s a matter for another thread.

You could just as well complain of Christianity being incompatible with a TRULY secular society.

but our society is only secular in name. because it has been formed by centuries of predominantly christian dogma.

If you want examples from the bible of similar quotes to the ones you find so unacceptable from Islamic texts, there are many. for example off the top of my head i know that the bible teaches that menstruating women are impure, and that if a daughter of a priest were to have sex with a man, she should be burned alive…

read Leviticus, it’s nasty stuff.

i’m not saying that islam is compatible with secularism… just that if it is, it’s not alone.

[size=200] Funny, how you never respond or explain the quotes. You dance, and dance, resort to ad hominem attacks.

This leads me to conclude, that Islam is indeed violent and misgynistic.

Hey, have one of your good buddy theologians at the mosque respond. I would like to see how they explain these few quotes away. Oh, there is so much more.[/size]

Hum, I am using direct quotes from an edu site that provides three translations for every verse. How is posting direct quotes from Islamic religious texts posting propaganda.

BTW: He never explains any of the quotes. He instead resorts to the Straw Man/ Red Herring and ad hominem fallacies.

the trouble is most christians, and jews don’t use these verses to justify violence any longer… the majority of islam (asia, africa) does.

unfortunately this isn’t true to the same degree, there are far more liberal and moderate christians than there are muslims.

and I think we have good reason to fear widespread Islam looking at the
widespread islam of the “east.”

that I can agree with, and thus agree with Sam Harris STRONGLY, on the issue on challenging faith.

our country was founded by deists, and in the 80’s and 2000’s due to fundamental neo-con-fundamentalist christian leadership the social experiment that is the US is changing for the worse.

you should do that, for the sake of equality, again though christians no longer practice such madness.

you can find nastiness in any part of the bible. How about god flooding the earth, becuase he’s unhappy with it? How about god killing sodom and gohmorra?

How about Paul okaying slavery?

you can okay anything you want to from our holy books.

again the majority of Islam is still doing so.

I agree… the devil is in the details of what type of reasoning they abject to.

If bob is right then bush is an apocolyptic christian that believes he is quickening the second coming, frankly I believe that and think he is carrying on reagans and his fathers work.

read my post in the other islam thread that has statistics and maps of where the majority of islam is.

I’m certainly not supporting the war between aspacia and avicenna, I’m just saying we need to confront all sides of this issue and not just let it slide to “it’s in the bible too”.

Yes, this is why I became so very belligerent with him.

Yes, many Muslims are literate, but often not beyond the elementary level. The Islamic leaders lead them around by the nose.

The religious texts support the violence.

Yes, to you, me, the many atheists agnostics, etc., but to the religious the texts are the world of God. The texts often cannot be explained in a rational manner.

Read my thread on a few Sharia laws and hadiths. Do not misunderstand, the Bible is very violent too. Remember the Jew whose guest a mob wanted to kill? Rather than submit the guest to the mob, he gave them his daughter and they raped her unto death. Nice huh.

I hope that secularism will spread. I do not care if a person is relgious, I only that that they follow our secular laws. I am ticked that many Islamic groups are trying to legalize Sharia law in their communities, in the secular West. They are not special and this sort of special consideration, along with prayer breaks during work and school hours I find offensive and insulting.

Have a great day

Yes.

And the West learned from its intolerance and became secular. We learned from the Inquisition, the Protestant Reformation, the Witch hunts, the Crusades.

Yes, like the Branch Davidian’s, Jim Jones and the Koolaid drinkers, Tim McVery, Rudolph, etc.

The head of the Anglican Church is the queen. Our US dollar has In God We Trust, our Pledge of Allegiance says “Under God.” Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments.

It is, but secular society outlaws certain faith based practices. For example, the polygamous Mormons had to leave. That is, secular laws superced God’s laws in the secular society.

Hum, I read the bit regarding mensus, but not the daughter of a priest. Do you have the verse?
[/quote]
read Leviticus, it’s nasty stuff.
[/quote]
Sure is, is the verse in Leviticus?

Again, Muslims groups living in the West are trying to legalize Sharia law in their communities. This is a problem to me, how about you?

I’d like to comment on this… yes we do have terrorists in our country… they are a small minority of the EXTREME fundamentalists.

The problem is the Islam terrorists, are not that extreme and not that much of a minority.

remember the video they showed shortly after 9-11 that showed people cheering in pakistan? Those people just happen to be Islam.

How many christians of any kind do you think support Tim McViegh, Jim Jones, the branch davidians, etc? Certainly I don’t think you’d find any cheering for them.

another thing I should’ve made clear, yes both books have violent text (to name some of the problems for a great look at all the books: ww.skepticsannotatedbible.com) but don’t you think actions speak louder than words? The actions of the majority of Islam like Aspacia has correctly shown (the sharia laws should send shivers down everyone’s spines.) is not something ANYONE should be turning a blind eye too.

Certainly I think we should challenge the logic behind all religion. if you believe a book is divine in origin that pretty much means you can justify anything heinous within it because it is the word of god.

I back this up… we had a lengthy conversation which I think we both benefitted from.
As a result, I reversed my position on the Qur’an desecration.

As for the interactions between Phaedrus and Avicenna: they could have spun out of control, but in the spirit of philosophy both provided reasonable responses. Bravo to them both!

Very true! I think we can all agree to this observation. The Christian bible is just as, if not more, misunderstood. Are the 500+ denominations enough proof of that?

This is where I would appeal to Aspacia and Avicenna and ask all parties to forget the past and concentrate on philisophical arguments. We are not in the Rant House… We can vehemently disagree but we should hold ourselves up to high standards. If we don’t, well, no physical harm done, no one can stop you, but it is a barrier to learning: that is what we are all here for… who among us can claim they have learned everything there is to know about something… ANYTHING?

Avicenna, you were not that offensive (IMO) but you must admit that you lost your cool at some points. Aspacia, you were very offensive (IMO) but let us forget the past and focus on respect–I’m not suggesting you love one another as that would be too Christian of me…

Aspacia, I appeal to your reason to the philosopher within you to stop your campaign. It often appears as if you have been consumed with hate and are compelled to ‘expose’ the evil of Avicenna–worse yet, you conclude that this perceived evil is an indication that all of Islam is evil too. I plead with you to return to your senses.

No Shit, could not agree more.

I meant the Moral Majority are NOT very moral. Sorry all.

Why did your reverse your position? Just curious.

Yes, and I am still looking for explanations regarding the Qur’an. Only one person has explained one quote that makes sense. And no, everyone cannot know everything. Hell, my B.A. is in history, and my other half knows more regarding the Civil War, military history and armaments than I do.

That is, most of Qur’anic texts cannot be rationally explained. The one regarding widows came from a Muslim, the one regarding alcohol came from a sociology class. I am for explanations and received insults.

Yes, aspacia meant to be offensive as she was being compared to bin Laden. She was not asked to “come to her senses” or that she was being irrational. She was being compared to a mortal enemy. I admit it. Think for a minute thirst, did I react the same way to your posts. It is okay to disagree, I really do not mind. I dislike it when insecure individuals who disagree with my claims resort to personal attacks and dance around the issues. This is what Avicenna did. Yes, I became belligerent, and admit it. I did not say I talked shit, I was belligerent and hostile so he would understand that he was using personal insults rather than addressing the issues.

Okay, but I will still ask questions. Remember, twenty years ago I conducted the same campaign against Judaism and Christianity after reading a few feminist critiques regarding faith. I started to dig then, and only recently really started to dig into Islam. Remember, I have not used any feminist critiques yet, as sensitive indivuals would go ballestic.

Avicenna, if you cannot answer, do not respond with BS and a defensive attitute. I can spot BS from a long way off. Often I bring tapes and political speeches to class and ask “Okay which fallacy is being committed?” Did you know that you dance resembles the political bs we hear from our “leaders.” Hell, all political leaders do the Straw Man routine.

Hey thirst , you really do misunderstand. I do not hate, but like everyone else become incensed when insulted. I do have some obsessive compulsive traits, you know like a dog that will not let go of that damn bone. When I go looking for answers and come up against a wall, chuckle, then I dig even more, mistrust and believe that I am being lied to by those who will not answer my questions. Like I said, it has been a brick wall for an entire year.

No, I slammed him for insulting me, I did not claim he was evil, just a piece of filth as he compared me to a piece of filth.

Yes, to me most, if not all religions and religous leaders use faith to gain wealth, prestige, and power. Most Muslims, similar to most Christians and Jews are nonviolent.

But that is not the point. The point is, why the hell won’t any scholar explain these quotes?

Why on earth do you believe I have lost my senses. I am curious and want answers to my questions. Instead of answers, I receive Straw Man/Red Herring and ad homenem attacks. Not to mention having a person attempt to patronize me by insults to my intellect.

I have asked these questions of many Islamic sites. No response. I have asked similar questions regarding the Bible and Judaism and they have answered me. For example, yes the Torah does allow slavery, hum, but take a look at Talmud law regarding slavery. Shit, there are so many rules that Jews started the saying “To buy a slave, is to buy a master.” Hence, the practice became extinct.

HELL(O) F(R)IEND(S)

I think it is sad that religions are dragged through the mud by the very men that profess to adhere to these religions. If we look throughout history we find all kinds of atrocities being done in the name of religion or in the name of god when behind these actions are the real incentives: money, power, fear, & LAND.

I remember reading about a time when Christianity was not as divided as it is today. There was one major branch of Christianity (Catholics) and a couple of other note worthy sects, but they were all Christians nonetheless, and typically united in their goals. I remember reading about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, Papal rule, forced conversions, executions, witch hunts, a deliberate attempt to force god unto the world’s population and their version of understanding and knowledge. The killed anyone who denounced their faith and no one could stop them from doing this in the section of the world that they controlled (a very large section indeed). They did this all in the name of their god, in the name of their leader Jesus Christ, in the name of the lord. I wonder if things would have changed had this power that the Church wielded had not been replaced by other more moderate governing methods.

Although this may be unpopular among some Arab Muslims, I would venture to say that many of the above circumstances are still affecting many in the Arab world (and the world influenced by Arabic disciplines) today. So far, it has been a near unanimous agreement that Christianity and Judaism has had its share of problems in the past. Who among us would argue that all or most Christians were bad during the Papacy’s reign? Was it the people that acted with such cruelty or was it the leaders? Were the people really even aware that their beliefs and actions were disruptive? We shouldn’t underestimate the power of propaganda. Some would argue that this can apply to American politics. This may apply today to the Arab countries… Is that a reasonable position?

Moreover, I think it can be argued that many Arabs are using Quranic texts today much the same way that Christians used Biblical texts before. The problem with all these religious texts are that so many of the ideas that were applicable hundreds or thousands of years ago are not applicable today. Seriously, Kosher laws are a scam… I could see Pig meat could kill you in those days but realistically, a small percentage of people would die from it today. Also, Muslim right to marry multiple women may have been applicable during times of war when so many males had died (the choice was to have multiple wives for each man, or a large population of prostitutes) but this law is not practical today. Racial or religious laws also made it clear that the true believers should not mix with unbelievers (which is very impractical to co-existence of religions). These laws continue to be a stumbling block to everyone because of some interpretation.

Finally, since I can’t allow myself to be fully reasonable without introducing something that makes me a jerk to many: the problem all falls on god’s head because he is the one whose holy word is being disputed over. Give us clear direction!

One word.

AWESOME.

BTW love your sig, I had that quote in my sig for a little while.

Thank you for at least that much. I think it can also be argued regardless of how “peaceful” a muslim sect acts they still are at their core ‘angry’ and ‘vehement’.

proof?

look at the nation of Islam in america, where the leaders all change their name to mohamed. Their goal is to get the US to give the black people their own land (they’ve nearly threatened violence to get it.) and pay them money to live there.

they believe that they are god’s choice people. (of course they are, my god is better than your god.)

The thing is I don’t know that there is even a peaceful message in the Qu’ran… I’d love to see one quoted.

yeah i know… this is my point. we are not secular because our society is based upon the ideals of christianity.

yeah but my point is that christian values naturally fit into western society because the two are inextricably linked, whereas islamic traditions and ideals equate with the culture in islamic countries and therefore seem out of place in western society.

that’s what i mean about our society not really being secular… because even though it’s not officially based on christianity or the teachings of the bible, because our roots are in christianity, the general messages have filtered through to secular society and are thus compatible with christian ethics so a christian will rarely ave to choose between law and God. they will naturally correspond.

but because a muslim’s religious law is different, it does not fit into a society in which the laws have derived from christianity… like you say, the 10 commandments and all that.

it is in leviticus i think. i don’t know where i’m afraid but i read it just before i posted that because i wanted to make sure i wasn’t making it up or imagining it!! … just has a quick skim but couldn’t find it.

seriously though read leviticus. there are so many more nasty things in there.

this is for sythekain:

hello. i was about to quote your whole post. but thought that was silly!

i think you may have misunderstood what i was getting at. i’m not saying i have a problem with christianity in that sense… i know that quotes from the bible prove nothing.

i was just pointing out that it’s the same with the qu’ran.

anybody can use anything to try to justify their actions. and if their actions are evil, the justification has to be momentous. ‘christians’ used the bible to justify the slave trade,just as such people espouse their right to bash homosexuals based upon another Leviticus quote about ‘he who lyeth with another man… blah blah…’

i was just trying to say to aspacia that if you pick out bits of either religious text it will appear as harsh and morally unacceptable by today’s standards.

and so asking why she saw islam as the problem and seemed to pick no fight with christianity when ultimately it is no less guilty of the same thing.

Yes, as a Deist I agree. God, if you are listening, quit LOL at us silly humans and HELP. WE REALLY NEED SOME HELP HERE.

Once an agnostic, I began reading many scientific texts. Ever notice how the atom resembles the solar system, and how the solar system resembles the galaxy. I believe that eventually, the form of the galaxies will resemble the atom. I may be mistaken. Anyone who’s discipline is astronomy. This is not my area.

Just for information. This is from a very right wing, religious settlers group, albeit, I have asked many of their contributors specific questions, including thier rabbis and have received nothing but intelligent responses. They have an agenda, hell, don’t we all, but many of you, especially thirst, may find the following article, and right wing Isralie media source insightful regarding Judaism.

israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=5187

Please, always remember I am not PC, with any religious group, as you have noted by my posts. I was just as blunt with this source.

Not one threat or insult. In contrast, I receive a dance and insults from the many “Arab” media sources. (Not all Muslims are Arabs, but Middle-
Eastern media is described as Arab media. A misnomer to be sure.