Dunamis,
The usefulness of the discussion is deteriorating. Tomorrow I have to go out of the country and will not have regular internet access (and what access I will have will be archaic.)
I will leave you with no answers, but perhaps some food for thought.
We cannot on the one hand interpret Paul “in the entirety of the context†and on the other insist that Jesus cannot be interpreted in context at all. If anything, there is a stronger argument to interpret Jesus in the entirety of the context because, unlike Paul, Jesus did not write his words down, they were translated decades later and written down. We must be consistent in our criteria. That said, I think it is disingenuous to not at least look at what Jesus said in the immediate context. By that I mean you cannot take a verse out of a metaphoric statement and attempt to address it out of that context. You have to first address the metaphor and then address specific verse within it.
If Jesus existed, and he did speak in Aramaic and Hebrew – two contestable assumptions – then it is a legitimate scholarly endeavor to question whether in the transition from his spoken Aramaic and Hebrew words to the written Greek words – which happened decades later and the renditions that we have are from centuries later– there were inaccuracies.
I asserted that Paul altered Jesus’ message in a specific way, not by altering Jesus’ specific words (though that is also a legitimate area of scholarly endeavor) but by promulgating a belief in Jesus as a higher being.
You would be correct if that were my reasoning. I was attempting to mirror back your position to you. Lao-tse said, “He who knows does not know, he who does not know knows.†Daniel J. Boorstin puts it, “The problem was not ignorance, the problem was the illusion of knowledge.â€
I had written to you earlier that I am not interested in winning some war about right or wrong. I am very open to the fact that this conjecture may miss the mark, but I also know that there is invaluable understanding to be reached by exploring what happened to Jesus’ words in the transition from his original spoken words to the written Greek we have from centuries later. Obviously that exploration is unimportant to you, but I don’t believe it merits disparagement. I think that says more about your thinking than it does anything else. That is why I wrote that paragraph part of which you quote above.
As far as John 15:5 – In John 15:1 Jesus says “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.†He does not say, “I am the true vine and you cannot be, and my Father is the husbandman and your father is not.†That is an interpretation you may put on those words.
I do not think that you interpret this to mean that Jesus really thought he was a grape vine. I think he knew he was human. If we can agree on that, then we can agree that he was talking metaphorically. The word translated as “the true†(alethinosâ€) is a single word meaning “true†with the connotation of â€genuineâ€. The “the†was inferred by the translator who could just as easily translated it “a true vineâ€. It behooves us to question whether the translator had a preconception that was influencing his translations. Also, if one knows anything about gardening, one knows that the branch of a vine can be stuck in soil and become a new vine. (“All these things I do, you too can do and more†when you become a vine.)
There are other interpretations that require one to reconcile Jesus concept of “Fatherâ€. I have brought this to your attention before. I am tired of taking you back to the original texts. This is something you are able to do yourself if you have the interest. I just note for your edification that the phrase “He that abideth†is extrapolated by the translator from the single Greek word “meno†which also means “to remain as one in reference to state or conditionâ€. Go back to the original Greek texts word by word and you will see that a completely different translation may be more accurate.
Any archeologist or anthropologist knows that there is major difference between studying the original artifacts or fossils and studying a cast, picture or replica. The same is true of any Biblical scholar. We need to examine the oldest extant version of the scriptures. Even the smallest fragments bring us new understandings.
If you bother to look at the original Greek that we have, you will find that Jesus is saying something like this in John 5:
Look at it this way, if you understand what I am saying, then it is like I am a vine and you are the branches and our father is the gardener. A branch can’t bring forth grapes by itself, it needs the vine. But the vine can’t bring forth grapes by itself either, it need the branches. We can’t do anything unless we understand that we are one. You are one with me and I with you like vine with branch and branch with vine.
As far as the last part of John 15:5, “without me you can do nothingâ€. The word translated as “without†also translates as “alone†or “separate†the next word (translated as “you canâ€) is the word “dunamaiâ€. It can also be translated as “I canâ€. So a valid translation is:
“I am the vine, ye are the branches. Remain one with me, and I with you, together we bring forth much fruit: because alone we can do nothing.â€
Jesus clarifies in John 5:9-10. You can only follow the translation if you look at the ancient Greek. The two verses would legitimately translate as: “In the same manner the Father loves me, so he loves. Likewise he loves you. Stay as one with me in this love of mine. Keep my principles, remain one with my love, seeing that I remain one with my father’s principles and one with his love.â€
One needs to keep in mind as one reads English translations that they are, for the most part, translated from the Latin which was translated for the traditional Greek which was translated from the Ancient Greek which was translated from the Aramaic, which was possibly taken down but more likely remembered and then written down by listeners of the Hebrew ancient Hebrew and Galilean dialect of Aramaic that Jesus spoke, not written by Jesus himself. If you have any concept of Plato, this can’t help but raise thoughts.
Before you reject without the needed research and information, keep an open mind. Refer to the oldest extant texts and see if the translations as I have rendered them are at least worthy of consideration.
As I will be away for an extended time, I wish you all the best.
Anyhow I do wish you the best in health and purpose on your journey.