For noetician questions on Islam-

I am looking for insight, and you might provide it. AD, thirst, try not to intrude, as she seems to actually know Islam.

noestician, please remember, I am very frustrated that no theologian will explain the texts, hence much of my wording “kicker” “another gem.” This tends to cause many to believe that there Islam has something to hide.

I must be clear as I do not follow the tenets of any religions. I also, must point out the women in the West have only started enjoying a sense of economic and social equality. Our Western religious laws have evolved into secularism which protects all faiths, genders and ethnic groups. That is that Biblical injunctions are no longer used in a secular society. My concern is that many Islamic laws are still observed and acted on in much of the Muslim world, and this includes many Muslim communities living in the secular West.

Western law is negotiated and concessions are made; the Qur’ran is the absolute word of God to many Muslims. and cannot be changed.

I have contacted at least three Islamic sites and all have confirmed that the Qur’an’s laws supercede secular laws. They were layman, and never had a scholar respond, which leads me to conclude that there is no refute to the following laws. Also, please note, I have only delved into the first two or three sections of the hadiths and Surah’s, I am sure there is much more.

The following hadiths, Qur’anic verses and Sharia laws are here for an Islamic scholar and/or academic to explain.

From The World of Islam
Surah laws:

“Men are in charge of women, because God has given some bounty over others, and because men shall expend of their wealth on them. So righteous women obey God, guarding unseen what God has guarded. As for women whose rebellion you fear, admonish them or banish them to their own beds or beat them. If they then obey, then seek not a way against them; God is sublime, [simultaneously terrifying and beautiful], Great” (Sura 4:15-16) (pp. 27).

Hum, I am a feminist, and if my husband lightly taps me as chastisement, I’ll divorce his ass and leave.

Surah 2:177 discusses charity. Hum, funny how many Islamic charities have been busted for terrorist ties. How much charity does the Islamic world provide to its very many living in poverty, or refugee camps? Hypocrites. Tiny Israel took in thousands of her brethren, provided citizenship, aid and a new lease on life. Now, let us take a look at a map of the Middle-East?? Think about it.

Now we have the rules for Ramadan and fasting.

Ah, here is a nice kicker “Fighting is prescribed for you, although you hate it. Yet it may be that you hate a thing that is better for you, or you may love a thing that is worse for you: God knows, and you do not know. They will ask you about the holy mother, and fighting in it. Say, ‘Fighting in it is a great fault, but to bar from God’s way, and reject Him and the Holy Mosque, and expel its people from it is a greater fault in God’s sight; that discord is worse than slaying.’ They will not cease to fight with you until they turn you from your faith, if they are able; whoever of you turns from the faith and dies rejection—such may hope for God’s mercy, and God is Forging, compassionate” (Surah 216-217) (Williams p. 2

Sounds to me like this claims killing is better than discord.

In Surah 219 wine and gambling are forbidden. It does not mention drugs?

Surah 221, ah, you cannot marry an idolatrous unless they convert. Hum, how many members of humanity does this eliminate?

Surah 222 is another kicker “They will question you about menstruation. Say, “It is a hurt; so keep away from menstruating women and do not be intimate with them until they are purified. [. . .] “

Hey ladies you are impure every menses.

Surah 2:223 "You wives are tillage [to till is to prepare for raising of crops by plowing, harrowing and fertilizing.] for you, so come unto your tillage as you wish, but look forward for yourselves [. . .]” In other words, women are dirt to be formed by men. At least this is what I am see this as. If you disagree, feel free to correct.

Another kicker which justifies murdering women. Probably used for honor killing.
Surah 4:15 “If any of your women commit indecency, then call four of you to witness against the, and if they testify, then detain the women in their houses until death visits them, or God appoints for them a way” (Williams 29).

The hadiths:

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 24:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said: “I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle, and offer the prayers perfectly and give the obligatory charity, so if they perform a that, then they save their lives an property from me except for Islamic laws and then their reckoning (accounts) will be done by Allah.”

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 25:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle was asked, “What is the best deed?” He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, “To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah’s Cause.” The questioner again asked, “What is the next (in goodness)?” He replied, “To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah’s pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet).”

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said: “I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful.” It was asked, “Do they disbelieve in Allah?” (or are they ungrateful to Allah?) He replied, “They are ungrateful to their husbands and are ungrateful for the favors and the good (charitable deeds) done to them. If you have always been good (benevolent) to one of them and then she sees something in you (not of her liking), she will say, 'I have never received any good from you.”

This was explained as Mohammed was only reporting what he saw.

Volume 1, Book 3, Number 111:
Narrated Ash-Sha’bi:
Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked Ali, ‘Have you got any book (which has been revealed to the Prophet apart from the Qur’an)?’ 'Ali replied, ‘No, except Allah’s Book or the power of understanding which has been bestowed (by Allah) upon a Muslim or what is (written) in this sheet of paper (with me).’ Abu Juhaifa said, "I asked, ‘What is (written) in this sheet of paper?’ Ali replied, it deals with The Diyya (compensation (blood money) paid by the killer to the relatives of the victim), the ransom for the releasing of the captives from the hands of the enemies, and the law that no Muslim should be killed in Qisas (equality in punishment) for the killing of (a disbeliever).

A tolerant religion???

Volume 1, Book 3, Number 125:
Narrated Abu Musa:
A man came to the Prophet and asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What kind of fighting is in Allah’s cause? (I ask this), for some of us fight because of being enraged and angry and some for the sake of his pride and haughtiness.” The Prophet raised his head (as the questioner was standing) and said, “He who fights so that Allah’s Word (Islam) should be superior, then he fights in Allah’s cause.”

Sounds like Mohammed conducted a religious crusade similar to the Christian crusades.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794:
Narrated Anas:
Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet and embraced Islam. The climate of Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of charity and to drink, their milk and urine (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had recovered from their ailment (became healthy) they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and killed the shepherd of the camels and took the camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in their pursuit and so they were (caught and) brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands and legs should be cut off and that their eyes should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and that their cut hands and legs should not be cauterized, till they die.

These types of punishments are still used in many Islamic countries. Ouch.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 821:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:
A bedouin came to the Prophet while he (the Prophet) was sitting, and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Give your verdict according to Allah’s Laws (in our case).” Then his opponent got up and said, “He has told the truth, O Allah’s Apostle! Decide his case according to Allah’s Laws. My son was a laborer working for this person, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and the people told me that my son should be stoned to death, but I offered one-hundred sheep and a slave girl as a ransom for him. Then I asked the religious learned people, and they told me that my son should be flogged with one-hundred stripes and be exiled for one year.” The Prophet said, “By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge you according to Allah’s Laws. The sheep and the slave girl will be returned to you and your son will be flogged one-hundred stripes and be exiled for one year. And you, O Unais! Go to the wife of this man (and if she confesses), stone her to death.” So Unais went in the morning and stoned her to death (after she had confessed).

The boy was flogged, the girl stoned to death. Equality??? Women are routinely more severly punished than men in many Islamic countries and communities.

Volume 1, Book 5, Number 268:
Narrated Qatada:
Anas bin Malik said, “The Prophet used to visit all his wives in a round, during the day and night and they were eleven in number.” I asked Anas, “Had the Prophet the strength for it?” Anas replied, “We used to say that the Prophet was given the strength of thirty (men).” And Sa’id said on the authority of Qatada that Anas had told him about nine wives only (not eleven).

Quite the libido.

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

It takes two women to equal one man

Volume 1, Book 7, Number 331:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me.

1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month’s journey.
2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers)
   [what about the rest of humanity dude?]
   a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.
3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me.

[Hum, not a pirate?]
4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection).
5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 345: [so god is not omniscient why the reduction in prayers??? Sorry for the long verse, but I do not want to be accused of taking it out of context. Go to the bold section for my point]
Narrated Abu Dhar:
Allah’s Apostle said, "While I was at Mecca the roof of my house was opened and Gabriel descended, opened my chest, and washed it with Zam-zam water. Then he brought a golden tray full of wisdom and faith and having poured its contents into my chest, he closed it. Then he took my hand and ascended with me to the nearest heaven, when I reached the nearest heaven, Gabriel said to the gatekeeper of the heaven, ‘Open (the gate).’ The gatekeeper asked, ‘Who is it?’ Gabriel answered: ‘Gabriel.’ He asked, ‘Is there anyone with you?’ Gabriel replied, ‘Yes, Muhammad I is with me.’ He asked, ‘Has he been called?’ Gabriel said, ‘Yes.’ So the gate was opened and we went over the nearest heaven and there we saw a man sitting with some people on his right and some on his left. When he looked towards his right, he laughed and when he looked toward his left he wept. Then he said, ‘Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.’ I asked Gabriel, ‘Who is he?’ He replied, ‘He is Adam and the people on his right and left are the souls of his offspring. Those on his right are the people of Paradise and those on his left are the people of Hell and when he looks towards his right he laughs and when he looks towards his left he weeps.’
Then he ascended with me till he reached the second heaven and he (Gabriel) said to its gatekeeper, ‘Open (the gate).’ The gatekeeper said to him the same as the gatekeeper of the first heaven had said and he opened the gate. Anas said: "Abu Dhar added that the Prophet met Adam, Idris, Moses, Jesus and Abraham, he (Abu Dhar) did not mention on which heaven they were but he mentioned that he (the Prophet ) met Adarn on the nearest heaven and Abraham on the sixth heaven. Anas said, “When Gabriel along with the Prophet passed by Idris, the latter said, ‘Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.’ The Prophet asked, ‘Who is he?’ Gabriel replied, 'He is Idris.” The Prophet added, “I passed by Moses and he said, ‘Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious brother.’ I asked Gabriel, ‘Who is he?’ Gabriel replied, ‘He is Moses.’ Then I passed by Jesus and he said, ‘Welcome! O pious brother and pious Prophet.’ I asked, ‘Who is he?’ Gabriel replied, 'He is Jesus.
Then I passed by Abraham and he said, ‘Welcome! O pious Prophet and pious son.’ I asked Gabriel, ‘Who is he?’ Gabriel replied, 'He is Abraham. The Prophet added, 'Then Gabriel ascended with me to a place where I heard the creaking of the pens.” Ibn Hazm and Anas bin Malik said: The Prophet said, “Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, ‘What has Allah enjoined on your followers?’ I replied, ‘He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.’ Moses said, ‘Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.’ (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, ‘Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.’ So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, ‘These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.’ I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, ‘Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.’ Then Gabriel took me till we ‘’ reached Sidrat-il-Muntaha (Lote tree of; the utmost boundry) which was shrouded in colors, indescribable. Then I was admitted into Paradise where I found small (tents or) walls (made) of pearls and its earth was of musk.”

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.’ And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah.” Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, “O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?” He replied, “Whoever says, ‘None has the right to be worshipped but Allah’, faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have.”

Watch out Pagans:Volume 1, Book 8, Number 420:
Narrated Anas:
When the Prophet arrived Medina he dismounted at 'Awali-i-Medina amongst a tribe called Banu 'Amr bin 'Auf. He stayed there For fourteen nights. Then he sent for Bani An-Najjar and they came armed with their swords. As if I am looking (just now) as the Prophet was sitting over his Rahila (Mount) with Abu Bakr riding behind him and all Banu An-Najjar around him till he dismounted at the courtyard of Abu Aiyub’s house. The Prophet loved to pray wherever the time for the prayer was due even at sheep-folds. Later on he ordered that a mosque should be built and sent for some people of Banu-An-Najjar and said, “O Banu An-Najjar! Suggest to me the price of this (walled) piece of land of yours.” They replied, “No! By Allah! We do not demand its price except from Allah.” Anas added: There were graves of pagans in it and some of it was unleveled and there were some date-palm trees in it. The Prophet ordered that the graves of the pagans be dug out and the unleveled land be level led and the date-palm trees be cut down . (So all that was done). They aligned these cut date-palm trees towards the Qibla of the mosque (as a wall) and they also built two stone side-walls (of the mosque). His companions brought the stones while reciting some poetic verses. The Prophet was with them and he kept on saying, "There is no goodness except that of the Hereafter, O Allah! So please forgive the Ansars and the emigrants. "

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 425:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah’s Apostle said, “Do not enter (the places) of these people where Allah’s punishment had fallen unless you do so weeping. If you do not weep, do not enter (the places of these people) because Allah’s curse and punishment which fell upon them may fall upon you.” [the pagans]

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 427:
Narrated 'Aisha and 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
When the last moment of the life of Allah’s Apostle came he started putting his ‘Khamisa’ on his face and when he felt hot and short of breath he took it off his face and said, “May Allah curse the Jews and Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets.” The Prophet was warning (Muslims) of what those had done.

Do not convert to another faith if Muslim.
Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:
Narrated Abu Burda:
Abu Musa said, “I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash’ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah’s Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O ‘Abdullah bin Qais!).’ I said, ‘By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.’ As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or ‘Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.’” The Prophet then sent Mu’adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu’adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu’adh asked, “Who is this (man)?” Abu Muisa said, “He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism.” Then Abu Muisa requested Mu’adh to sit down but Mu’adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, “Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, ‘I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.’”

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:
Narrated 'Aisha:
The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, “Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people).” I said, “You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie --in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him.”

Heck, can’t have a similar holy day as the Christains and Jews
Volume 2, Book 13, Number 1:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah’s Apostle (p.b.u.h) saying, “We (Muslims) are the last (to come) but (will be) the foremost on the Day of Resurrection though the former nations were given the Holy Scriptures before us. And this was their day (Friday) the celebration of which was made compulsory for them but they differed about it. So Allah gave us the guidance for it (Friday) and all the other people are behind us in this respect: the Jews’ (holy day is) tomorrow (i.e. Saturday) and the Christians’ (is) the day after tomorrow (i.e. Sunday).”

Volume 2, Book 13, Number 37:
Narrated Abu Umama bin Sahl bin Hunaif:
I heard Muawiya bin Abi Sufyan (repeating the statements of the Adhan) while he was sitting on the pulpit. When the Muadh-dhin pronounced the Adhan saying, “Allahu-Akbar, Allahu Akbar”, Muawiya said: “Allah Akbar, Allahu Akbar.” And when the Muadh-dhin said, “Ash-hadu an la ilaha illal-lah (I testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah)”, Muawiya said, “And (so do) I”. When he said, “Ash-hadu anna Muhammadan Rasulullah” (I testify that Muhammad is Allah’s Apostle), Muawiya said, “And (so do) I”. When the Adhan was finished, Muawiya said, “O people, when the Muadh-dhin pronounced the Adhan I heard Allah’s Apostle on this very pulpit saying what you have just heard me saying”.

Hi aspacia,
Very busy night, but I will address your questions within the next couple of days for sure. So sorry for the delay. Have a good one

Hi Aspacia,

I’m sorry it took a while for me to get back to you. I am by no means a scholar in Islam, but I will try to respond to your queries to the best of my knowledge and understanding. I admire your desire to learn.

First of all, it is indeed true that Islamic laws supersede secular laws. Also, Quranic laws supersede hadith. Islamic law is derived from both Qur’an and hadith. Not all hadiths, however, are authentic. Many out there were fabricated after Mohammad’s death, so Islamic scholars have the job of sifting through the hadiths and determining their authenticity based on the content (with respect to Quranic commandments and other hadiths), the chain of narration, the veracity of the initial narrator, etc. I will get into this more later. First, the Qur’anic verses.

Since the time you posted this, I explained this verse in the other thread. Let me know if you still have questions about it.

Several Quranic verses discuss charity, as it is an important tenant of Islam and its payment is required for all Muslims. Many of the charitable organizations busted for “terrorist ties” had no such ties at all. After 9/11, a great deal of Islamic charities were pinpointed and had their funds frozen simply because of their affiliation with Islam (and the fear that they might thus be associated with terrorism). I was personally familiar with some of the organizations on the list, and their work had nothing to do with the terrorists. Rather, they held regular fund raisers for those living in poverty, refugee caps, etc. I can safely say that the vast majority of Islamic relief organizations actually do collect and distribute their funds honestly. It is true that there may be some organizations that exploit their funds (as every group has its bad apples) but in general a great deal of Islamic charities exist, and all the ones I am familiar with do nothing but good, honest work for humans worldwide (Muslim and non-Muslim).

(First I’d like to make a quick correction…the verse speaks of fighting in the “holy month,” not “holy mother.”)

Fighting is greatly restricted in Islam. This verse makes it clear that fighting is hated; however, sometimes it is necessary as a last resort against oppression or aggression. As I explained in the other thread, fighting in Islam has strict rules & regulations, including that it must be defensive, either to fight against aggression or to protect human rights against oppression, and that noncombatants may not be hurt. War should not be resorted to if another peaceful means exists. War may not be carried out on the basis of a personal or political agenda.

In the history of Islam, there were times that these rules were followed and times that they were violated. Quranic verses are sometimes misinterpreted and misapplied. I’m not one to say whether or not it is intentional, but I can say that it is often greatly due to the circumstances and influences (e.g. Bin Laden and his political force, his frustration at the plight of the Iraqis, Palestinians, etc).

As I stated above, verses 2:216-17 are explaining that while fighting is inherently hated and bad, sometimes it must be carried out in the face of aggression or oppression. In such cases, the Muslims may fight. Specifically, 217 is referring to an occasion on which Mohammad sent a man to watch the situation of the Quraysh and report back on the circumstances. When he and some others went, they encountered a caravan that was on its way to Mecca to attack the Muslims. This was in the Islamic month of Rajab, one the holy months, in which fighting is prohibited, so they knew the Muslims could not fight back. Those in the caravan stated that they would continue their way to Mecca to attack the Muslims, so the Muslims intercepted the caravan and brought back captives to Mohammad. Mohammad stated that he had not ordered them to fight and that he would not associate with the captives because it was a holy month. At this time, the aforementioned verse was revealed, explaining that while fighting is bad, fitnah (meaning sedition, oppression) is worse. And of course, this fighting must follow the rules mentioned above.

The word that you have as wine is also translated as general intoxicants (see 5:90, 91), because the Arabic word “khamr” comes from a root word meaning “to cover.” Thus, although commonly referred to as alcohol, khamr can mean anything which covers the mind. Thus, mind-altering drugs are forbidden in Islam for the same reason alcohol is.

Muslims are forbidden from marrying idolaters, which should not be a surprise. This rule does not mean that Muslims must hate them/not associate with them/kill them/etc. They simply should assure that they will have the support, affection, and bond of marriage from someone who believes in God, and their children should be raised as such. Many people, religious or not, believe that it is most harmonious for oneself and family if he/she marries someone of the same faith, as this will be a strong basis for the couple and a common grounds upon which to raise the children.

This verse is not saying that men should totally stay away from women during their menses, nor is it calling the women impure. Husband and wife may engage in any sort of intimate contact during a woman’s period, except for sex. The “hurt” in this verse, and the advice not to have intercourse with menstruating women, is referring to sex during one’s period as being hurtful or unhealthy, physically.

This verse is not at all saying a man may form his wife like dirt. Actually, it brings light to the necessity of women as a means of protection and maintenance of people. As man needs nourishment that cannot be accomplished without farming, the sustenance of humans cannot be accomplished without women. In saying “come to your tillage as you wish,” this verse is continuing the meaning of women being the sustenance of humankind. It’s seen as a a warning for those who consider women to be nothing but a means of sensuality. The verse goes on to tell people to do good deeds, and this statement also refers to sexual intercourse as a means of producing good children, which is itself a sacred service. Hence, this verse is also generally telling men to exercise good judgment in choosing a wife, and to choose one who will be a good mother.

AD and I explained this in the other thread (probably after you posted this). Let me know if you still have questions about it.

As for the hadiths, I am by no means a scholar in hadiths, nor am I one to judge their authenticity or even delve into their explanation. As I stated above, not all hadiths are authentic, and I by no means have the scholastic ability to decipher an authentic hadith from a non-authentic hadith. Furthremore, the hadiths you have are all from the Sahih books. The Sahih books are not completely followed by all Muslims. For example, Shia Muslims do not automatically accept all the hadiths in the Sahih books as true. Rather, the shia believe that some of them are true and some were fabricated following the prophet’s death. Thus, many Shia scholars have studied the hadith and determined which ones are likely true and which are likely fabricated (and everything in between, ranging from strong to weak likelihood of veracity) although even they do not have the ultimate knowledge of the veracity of a hadith. It’s really hard to tell.

So I am in no way qualified to judge hadiths, as it may be the case that every single one you have written is fabricated. It also may be the case that every single one is true…I am not one to say. Thus, rather than specifically address the hadiths you have written, I will just address some of the topics in the hadiths that stood out.

Some mentioned fighting…
If fighting non-Muslims is mentioned in hadith, it still must be completely in accordance with the Qur’an (If hadiths seem to conflict with Qur’an, the Qur’an always takes precedence). If the Qur’an prohibits fighting unless it is to defend against aggression/oppression, then the hadiths are in agreement with these teachings. The Quran says “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not transgressors” (2:190); “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily, God is most powerful for their aid (22:39); “Permission [to fight] is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully and offensively waged… (Qur’an 22:39-40). Clearly Muslims are forbidden from fighting people just to make them Muslim. The hadiths that discuss fighting already assume the rules of the Qur’an.

As for jihad…
Jihad does not mean “religious fighting,” and is often mistranslated to mean “holy war.” In actuality, there is no Arabic word for holy war (if I am to directly translate holy war into Arabic, it comes to “harb muqaddas”—a phrase that does not exist). Jihad means to struggle, in any way, for the sake of Allah. Thus the jihad in this hadith is not translated into physical fighting for Allah. It merely refers to any struggle for the sake of God…this can be staying up at night to study. It can be fighting one’s inner desires when with dealing the opposite sex, and abstaining from forbidden acts. It can be abstaining from alcohol when a lot of pressure otherwise exists. It can be anything…any sort of struggle for the sake of God. In another hadith, the Muslims had returned from battle and Mohammad told them, “you have completed the smaller jihad.” When they asked what the greater jihad was, he replied that it was the jihad of the soul (i.e. fighting inner desires).

Women (sinning)…
Women are indeed required to treat their husbands with respect (and vice versa). It is considered a sin to unnecessarily anger or disobey one’s husband without good reason. In one hadith you mentioned, Mohammad is referring to women who had husbands who were very good to them, and nonetheless they complained, gave them a hard time, and denied that their husbands did anything special. This behavior is not only wrong and harmful to a relationship; it is also sinful, because ungratefulness towards God’s bounties is a sin.

Women ½ of men…
This rule is only in the context of witnesses in court. The testimonies of two women are equivalent to those of one man because of woman’s propensity to become swayed by her emotions. Women are more likely to become scared, feel sorry for the person, etc. I illustrated this in another thread with the example of domestic violence cases in the United States. Over 90% of the time, the woman changes her story in court because she is scared/feels sorry for the man/does not want to be alone/etc. Just today, I spoke to a district attorney who told me that in two years, of all the domestic violence cases he had (and believe me, plenty) only two women told a story on the stand that was consistent with their initial police report. The rest flat out lied.

Reduction of prayer…
You asked about the hadith in which Moses advised Mohammad to reduce the prayers for his followers, and the reason is exactly as Moses put it. The people cannot bear it. Five prayers a day is already considered too much for many Muslims. God does not want to burden people who worship him by making them spend their entire day in prayers. There are many verses in the Quran which state that God wants ease for his believers and not discomfort (e.g. 2:185), and that God will not place a burden upon a person that is greater than he can bear (2:186). Also, Islam is believed by the Muslims to be the last religion for mankind, and surely God had the knowledge of what the world would become (people rarely have time to sit down for a meal these days). Nonetheless, Muslims are still encouraged to pray extra prayers during the day (besides the prescribed five), and may spend the day in prayers if they would like (and will receive a reward from God for doing so).

Alright…I hope that helped. Have a good one.

Peace out.

not personally an islamic scholar, but there is a point i can contribute.

last i checked, the red cross (not islamic, but christian, they use the red moon thingy) was being under serious scrutiny for actually using less than 20% of it’s funds for their intended purpose, with a good half unacountable and the rest used for various non related things. such as buying cars for management. now, if an islamic charity had half their funds (and with the red cross they are significant funds) unacountable, the entire cast of the show would be yelling non stop on tv how this is proof of terrorist activity, right ? why aren’t they ?

oh, ps. halliburton still has to account for about 1.2 us$ billion at the very least. which means, it got the money, it’s not known what it was uised for. terrorist activity ? possibly. freeze their accounts ? heh.

which is why i will not consider using, and i would not consider to actually be a banker any person or organization that will divulge any sort of information to third parties, including governments of any ilk, including the cases when any third party considers it’s required by law, not to mention taking any sort of action at the behest of a third party (like freezing accounts). simple as that. you shouldn’t either, but hey, its your money.

Thanks for the insights. I will stick to the Qur’an in the future. Yes, many battered women do not testify as they suffer from mental confusion, paranoia and physical pain after years of being assaulted by their husbands. This would probably be true of a man totured in prison. Recently, the US sent a Canadian man to Syria for questioning. (Totally illegal) They broke him. It was on 60 Minutes Sunday. Hence, it is not so much a gender issue as a subjegation issue.

Also, I will have to do more research, but if memory serves, several charities were nailed for having terrorist links.

FYI:

The statement by Treasury Undersecretary Stuart Levey before the US Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, contrasted with earlier upbeat assessments by US officials that Saudi Arabia was making good progress in stemming the flow of private money to terrorist groups. …

“Wealthy Saudi financiers and charities have funded terrorist organizations and causes that support terrorism and the ideology that fuels the terrorists’ agenda”, Levey told lawmakers Wednesday.

“Even today, we believe that Saudi donors may still be a significant source of terrorist financing, including for the insurgency in Iraq,” he added.

US officials expressed particular concern about three Saudi-run charities that operate around the world: the International Islamic Relief Organization, the World Association of Muslim Youth and the Muslim World League.

There is probably more, I will check.

thanks for the info, zeno…it’s unfortunate

my pleasure

right, many battered women suffer greatly. but I am not necessarily referring to these people. it could be someone who reports a single incident and who has never been touched in the past. but even these ones usually end up testifying falsely on the stand because their emotions get in the way. regardless of this statistic, women (in general) all too often let their emotions dictate many of their actions. and i don’t mean that in a negative way. it’s why women have their motherly hearts, and why they are known for their compassion.

several were nailed for having terrorist links, but how many were proven to actually have the links? if any were proven to have terrorist links (i don’t know how many but i’m sure very few), this does not say anything about all the other legitimate islamic charities that exist. like I said, there may be bad apples, but aside from them there are a geat deal of legitimate islamic charities that do nothing but good work. it’s quite unfortunate that some may exploit their funds, but this is due to the misguided actions of those in charge, and nothing you or i can do will stop corrupt people from existing

1.regardless of this statistic, women (in general) all too often let their emotions dictate many of their actions. and i don’t mean that in a negative way. it’s why women have their motherly hearts, and why they are known for their compassion.

Ahh…so, is this the basic reason why Islam (synonymous with God) seeks to control women to such a high degree?

no…it’s the reason that in the court setting (only), two female witnesses are equivalent to one male witness. this 2 for 1 rule does not exist outiside this setting. islam does not seek to control women at all. saudi arabia/taliban/etc. may, but islam does not command such behavior in the least.

That’s interesting.

What is the source for your statement that two female witnesses are equal to one male witness?

That sounds a bit medieval. It seems that you are turning back the clock on all modern concepts of female competence.

monsieur…
source is the Qur’an, 2:182.
the verse itself is dealing with commercial transactions, which is why a great deal of commentators say that the two witness rule applies only to such transactions. the reason is that 7th century women were not as literate in business as were men. furthermore, commentators explain that this rule goes back to the nature of women as being more sensitive and emotional. this is, of course, a generalization, but one cannot deny that when looking at women as a whole, this is true. there’s a big difference between regarding women as inferior to men, and regarding women as equal but different. islam takes the latter viewpoint. there are inherent differences between men and women, but this does not make any one sex better than the other. this modern day feminist nonsense drives me crazy sometimes. for example (this is not an Qur’anic viewpoint, just my own), i have no problem with accepting that i am physically weaker than most men my age. it’s not demeaning to me…it’s simply acceptance of the truth. yes, i could bulk up and become extremely strong, and yes, there are men out there who are scrawiner than i…however, when looking at the population as a whole, it’s clear that men as a whole are typically stronger than women. and there are qualities on the flip side as well. many speak of a woman’s intuition. women are generally more sensitive. men and women communicate differently. and the list goes on…
also,
the judeo-christian scriptures have rules referring to women as witnesses, and those are far more stringent. in early jewish society, women were not allowed to bear witness at all. i dont even think women can give evidence in israel’s rabbinical courts today (justified by the account of sarah lying in genesis). until recently, women were not allowed to give testimony in the united states due to civil as well as biblical law. the only difference may be that muslims believe they must adhere to islamic law and not modify it with time, while other religions may allow for modifications. but islam does not in any way put women down or regard them as inferior to men. islam was way ahead of the west in allowing women to vote, become involved in politics, inherit, etc. way back in the 7th century.

So, could it be concluded that the Qur’an is an inaccurate text?

I do not see men and women as being much different from each other emotionally or rationally. I have known quite a few males that were fools making the rashest decisions based on but a whim. I have known women that were so cold hearted that every decision had to have some complex rational. Anyone that has had some life experience, or even a ridiculous relative or two, knows that the sexes share each other’s strengths and weaknesses.

Your basic statement was that women are inherently irrational. This generalization would translate to all affairs. How could one trust that they are not dealing with an irrational woman? The best bet would be to divest them all of any power to ensure the smooth running of any operation that requires rational thought.

That’s a bunch of bunk.

Again, if a man was subjected to years of abuse he would probably behave in a similar manner. This also occurs with male hostages who begin to sympathize with their captors, The Stockholm Syndrome.

But isn’t the man who initially became too emotional and violent, abuses his significant other or children then blames the victim for his lack of control over his emotions?

85% + of violent crimes are committed by men who cannot control their emotions.

Hum, much study has been done to refute the mother myth. Look, if a many makes less than his wife, and chooses to stay home, he may be a better nurturer than his wife. Society has bred the spheres of influence myth which causes many to be stuck in a role they are not suited for.

I completely agree that a husband may make a better nurturer than his wife. However, it is still true that men and women generally vary in their emotions, sensitivity, etc. I do not think the roles of male & female are completely shaped by society (although society definitely contributes). Men and women have inherent differences. You can look at what I told Monsieur above and provide any disagreement, if you wish.

how did you derive that conclusion from what i said?

i pointed out that my generalizations were in reference to the population as a whole, in spite of some cases which may show otherwise. i’m not arguing that men are more rational, or “cold hearted” than women. i am pointing out differences in their general emotions.

again…i did not say, nor do i think, that women are more irrational than men. i did say that women are generally more emotional than men.

it’s completely cultural is what aspacia is trying to say. It’s not genetic. Men can be more emotional than women, or vice versa.

A level of emotional tact shouldn’t be the clout of one’s worth though. I’d no more want someone overtly emotional judging me as i’d not want someone overtly logical. I’d want someone “fair and balanced.” (copyright fox news, and no I’m not kidding.)

I think it’s ridiculous to tell young boys to subjugate their emotions and I refuse to teach my son that he should hide his tears when he is hurt. It makes me furious to see mothers and fathers telling their little boys “boys don’t cry dear” (or something to that extent.)

it’s no wonder so many boys and men are emotional wrecks and think that emotions are weakness.

I’ve defended Islam over some other issues recently (FGM an example) but there is no sane way to defend this issue noetician. UNLESS, you are willing to admit that the Qu’ran like the bible is dated and written by men of the time. There is still some good myth and allegory in these books, but any work of fiction from tom sawyer to a brave new world have good allegory.

like I said in another post on this subject, try telling the female judges/witnesses/jury members that they need another woman on the stand/bench in order for their judgement/testimony to be valid. I’m sure that would go over really well.

(and it would piss off a male member if you told him the same thing.)

Interestingly, in my business dealings I have observed that women tend to be the perfect stickle types and the men tend to be either a kind of slacker that gets things done or the dynamic type that improvises everything. Both of these behaviors stem from wanting emotional excitement.

In many minority communities the men go about doing whatever they want while the single mother diligently stays home taking care of the father’s illegitimate children. Are minority males more emotional than their female counterparts? Perhaps it is rational to impregnate and run?

Just the other evening I was watching a Jack Lemmon movie called, How To Kill Your Wife. He played a confirmed bachelor that accidentally married a very attractive Italian woman that was always into things, so he decided to kill her so that he could return to his old life. As, a modern man I was puzzled by the film. Why would he want to kill such a sweet interested person? Then, I imagined what women must have been like to be around before they had significant life choices.

It occurred to me that many very bright women with no job and no education must have been annoying to have around. These women had nothing to do but worry about family and mundane issues. Their job was looking after you whether you needed it or wanted it. This translates into the creation of women that get worked up over nothing and are generally annoying.

Who can be blamed for this? Well, the male establishment that kept them home and uneducated that’s who.

So, women viewed as “emotional beings” was a concept most likely born from the results of male oppression (after the males had forgotten that they were oppressing them).

Then how do you account for the fact that most violence is perpetrated by the “less” emotional male? A man is far more likely to go off on an emotional, verbal and physically abusive binge than a woman.

You may be suffering from what a culture has told you is true, and may actually be incorrect. Many call this the Donna Reed Syndrome.

True, there are physical differences, and you claim men are usually physically stronger, but women outlive men.

Hum, for years women sewed, but were told they could not be a surgeon; women were the cooks at home, but could not become chefs.

Many studies reveal that female children begin communication at a very young age, play talk and such, whereas, male children make noises, crashing trucks together, “boom” or petending to shoot a gun “pow.” But for years women have been disenfranchised from politics, and higher education admittance.

I believe you get my drift.

i am not putting men & women into “always emotional” and “never emotional” categories, and i agree that men should be in touch with their feelings. but in reality, it is obvious (to me, you may disagree) that women are inherently more emotional. this has nothing to do with them being sticklers in the office, men being slackers, etc. im saying that independent of the time, the circumsances, etc., the nature of male & female is different. i don’t see how one can live, interact with people of the opposite sex, have a significant other/spouse and not notice that men and women differ emotionally.

i agree that many differences between men and women are shaped by culture, of course. but that does not mean that they all are. i think that various differences are simply inherent in the sexes.

anyway, i have been expressing my personal view, and the quran is not making contentions to the extent that i am. like i stated, the verse is referring to commercial transactions, but commentaries also state the emotional difference between men & women. there’s really no need to go on about this. i explained the verse, i stated my opinion, you guys have yours, and that’s cool. let me know if you have any other questions.

Actually, men tend to suffer the most from all kinds of mental illness, however, women seek treatment more frequently for their own. What doe this say about rationality? It’s most likely the case that guys don’t seek treatment because of embarrassment.

It is my opinion that man are much more emotional than women. Men have exhibited a great deal of emotion in positive pursuits such as the arts and whatnot over the years. This fact coupled with the emotional disturbance factor lends itself to some obvious conclusions.

Meanwhile, I have observed that although women are very emotional they are somehow capable of fleeting emotional displays that quickly clear up. Crying for some women can clear up in seconds to minutes. When men cry they frequently can’t stop. This is not to say that female emotions are shallow, but I think that sometimes they mean something a lot different than when exhibited by men.

Donna Reed Syndrome. This is not an official diagnosis but it’s a funny one.

Monsieur Zenith: It occurred to me that many very bright women with no job and no education must have been annoying to have around. These women had nothing to do but worry about family and mundane issues. Their job was looking after you whether you needed it or wanted it. This translates into the creation of women that get worked up over nothing and are generally annoying.

This is interesting. Shakespeare, from what I understand, wrote all of his love sonnets to men as her found their qualities to be superior to women. Of course this was during a time when most women were not allowed to develop their qualities. It’s a vicious circle.